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Michael Moore - Fahrenheit 9/11 (general discussion - merged) - Page 5

post #161 of 407
And here he is in the flesh:
http://www.howardforsenate.com/
post #162 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
It's a republican run PR firm for exclusively for republican campaigns, just like carl rove. What's Carl Rove's "association" with the GOP?

Karl Rove is actually paid by George Bush and the GOP as well as a campaign advisor. But it is interesting to note that by your logic, This Week on ABC is nothing but a hidden liberal propaganda machine since George Stephanopoulos was a Clinton advisor. He also helped run both campaigns and formulate most of the key Clinton policies. Karl Rove doesn't advertise himself as nonpartisan because he is working for Bush's campaign for goodness sake.

Of course Michael Moore campaigned for Clarke, but that doesn't distort his "truth" or call into question his motives at all.

Sad that you would rather kill the messengers and also debate their motives than just deal with the fact that Moore is profiting from withholding his footage and information regard torture in Iraq.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #163 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Karl Rove is actually paid by George Bush and the GOP as well as a campaign advisor.

Actually not.

Rove is currently a political appointee in the white house, meaning he gets paid by tax dollars. Before that he (well, really his PR firm Karl Rove & Company) got paid exactly the same way this republican PR firm gets paid for doing the exact same kind of work.
Quote:
But it is interesting to note that by your logic, This Week on ABC is nothing but a hidden liberal propaganda machine

No, by my logic a republican PR Firm that does PR for republican campaigns does PR for republican campaigns.
post #164 of 407
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...238794,00.html

What a curmudgeon had to say about Michael Moore.
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post #165 of 407
Whoa....curmudgeon is right. lol
post #166 of 407
...that's democracy for ya.

'Move America Forward' (please) and 'Citizens United' (?) have started a campaign to ban Fahrenheit 911.

Apparently, according to David Bossie of CU:

Quote:
this guy (Moore) is simply producing and advertising this movie at this time to try to affect the election. It seems to be left to us to make sure that the media is educated, as well as the American people are educated, as to just what they're up to.

This raise several points:

1) It is yet more evidence (like we needed it) of the fundie bi-polar mindset. Anything that criticizes Bush MUST by definition, be partisan. It couldn't be that someone is interested in the truth. Not possible.

Note: this is not to say that Moore's film is the truth as (like many of the opponents I suspect) I haven't seen it to make a judgement. My point is that in the fundie view - it is not possible for a journalist or filmaker to be
interested in truth if their views show Bush in a bad light. In that case they must (in their attenuated and circumscribed thought processes), be acting from partisan motivation. This can only be because the fundies really believe it is not possible for Bush to be in error.

2) Even if this ridiculous argument had the smallest iota of truth or accuracy contained within it's hollow and vacuous carapace, then you'd have to say so bloody what ??????. I mean hello ???? Is that a crime ?

Basically the true colours are now showing through and the totalitarian banning instinct is frothing to the fore. I don't think they'll get away with it as America hasn't quite gone that far (it was an eight year programme I guess) but the point is, it clearly shows how these people think. Or don't think, if you catch my drift.
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #167 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Actually not.

Rove is currently a political appointee in the white house, meaning he gets paid by tax dollars. Before that he (well, really his PR firm Karl Rove & Company) got paid exactly the same way this republican PR firm gets paid for doing the exact same kind of work.

No, by my logic a republican PR Firm that does PR for republican campaigns does PR for republican campaigns.

Try reversing it. You start with the conclusion and move to backwards. You should look at the criteria to determine if it is a Republican owned PR firm. Instead you just declare it so.

As for the differences, are you claiming that ol'George S. didn't work for Clinton when he was in the white house? Did he somehow become nonpartisan during that time? I'm sure all of us would love to hear your explanation of how Karl Rove ISN'T partisan right now because he is being paid with U.S. Tax dollars. How can you not be partisan when you are working for the executive branch of the president? I understand (as do you) that some offices tend to have people that stay between administrations, but the roles we are discussing that Rove and Stephanopolis filled obviously do not. Presidents are partisan, and we all know that most executive offices are filled with fellow partisans from the party.

Also you are wrong about Rove's company. It has always been known as a political consulting firm. It is not a public relations firm.

Lastly we have the fact that you still prefer to focus no the perceived messenger since you haven't addressed Michael Moore profiting from keeping secret the torture of Iraqi's.

I'm sure you'll address it someday though.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #168 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
You should look at the criteria to determine if it is a Republican owned PR firm. Instead you just declare it so.

How is someone supposed to have a conversation with you when you just make up positions to argue against?
Quote:
George S.

Not a campaign PR firm.
Quote:
I'm sure all of us would love to hear your explanation of how Karl Rove ISN'T partisan right now because he is being paid with U.S. Tax dollars.

I seriously have no idea what the hell your are talking about here.

You claimed Rove is paid by bush now, and you are wrong.
Quote:
Also you are wrong about Rove's company. It has always been known as a political consulting firm. It is not a public relations firm.

Aren't you a republican? You should know more about Rove.

Let's check out his .gov bio:
Quote:
Prior to his current appointment, Karl Rove served as chief strategist for the Bush-Cheney 2000 Presidential campaign and as president of Karl Rove & Company, an Austin, Texas-based public affairs firm.

Rove's primary claim to fame is direct mail. Karl Rove & Company coordinated and publicized republican campaigns. RMR and Rove & Co do the exact same thing.
post #169 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
...that's democracy for ya.

'Move America Forward' (please) and 'Citizens United' (?) have started a campaign to ban Fahrenheit 911.

Apparently, according to David Bossie of CU:

This raise several points:

1) It is yet more evidence (like we needed it) of the fundie bi-polar mindset. Anything that criticizes Bush MUST by definition, be partisan. It couldn't be that someone is interested in the truth. Not possible.

Partisan or not, Moore has obviously made this film in an attempt to influence the election. Moore himself is branded as partisan because, well he is. He is a registered Democrat who spent much of the primary season campaigning for Clarke. That happens to be the definition of partisan. Moore isn't declared partisan because he criticizes Bush. He is declared partisan because he is campaigning for Democrats. Moore is obviously not interested in the truth or else he would have released his information about torture before he could make a buck off it. He also would have run people's comments to his questions instead of just their facial expressions. Lastly there have multiple charges across multiple films that Moore has his film crew lie about who they are and for whom they work. Lying to get at the truth doesn't help his case in that regard either.

Quote:
2) Even if this ridiculous argument had the smallest iota of truth or accuracy contained within it's hollow and vacuous carapace, then you'd have to say so bloody what ??????. I mean hello ???? Is that a crime ?

Being partisan isn't a crime at all. However you can use it to inform the viewing public of what they are watching. In the trailer we get to watch Republicans have their words cut out of the movie. We also get to watch long-winded Democrats declare that the reason so many Republicans and Democrats voted for the Patriot Act was because... they didn't read it. We have the speech for example which was given in the context of humor, but is played outside of that context so that the words have a distorted meaning. We also of course have no mention of the Gore speech that was given within that same context as well, etc.

Even the part with the golf swing is doing nothing more than taking advantage of peoople's ignorance regarding the press, their gathering of statements, and going on and off the record.

All the word partisan begins to do, is inform a viewer of some of the tricks Moore will employ to tell his distorted view to the world and present it as truth.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #170 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
... tell his distorted view to the world and present it as truth.

I can't believe you actually typed this following the conversation above.
post #171 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
How is someone supposed to have a conversation with you when you just make up positions to argue against?

Not a campaign PR firm.

I seriously have no idea what the hell your are talking about here.

You claimed Rove is paid by bush now, and you are wrong.

Aren't you a republican? You should know more about Rove.

Let's check out his .gov bio:


Rove's primary claim to fame is direct mail. Karl Rove & Company coordinated and publicized republican campaigns. RMR and Rove & Co do the exact same thing.

Checking, checking... nope still haven't addressed Michael Moore have you.

I can find you still wandering off about Rove, but what else is new in that regard for you.

Public affairs = political consulting.

As for not knowing what the hell I am talking about. You said Rove works for the White House now instead of being paid to consult for Bush. (He is still paid to consult just by the White House) You brought up the point that he is paid by the White House so you can "clarify" your conclusion from that since you don't like mine. The only conclusion I could see you drawing is that he is no longer paid by the Republican party but is still partisan. If that wasn't what you were trying to claim then clarify it.

But regardless, the point is moot. Address the topic of the thread. Michael Moore. Address the fact that he lets suffering continue by hiding the truth for a buck while claiming to expose the same thing.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #172 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
I can't believe you actually typed this following the conversation above.

Of course you can't believe it. Because according to you, anyone who doesn't have your exact worldview is stupid, distorted, lying, etc.

Get over yourself. Then you won't have so much trouble believing people can hold more views than your own.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #173 of 407
Keep backpedalling. Would it really hurt you so much to admit that you were dead wrong?

I love this:
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Also you are wrong about Rove's company. It has always been known as a political consulting firm. It is not a public relations firm.

Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Public affairs = political consulting.

You're a riot.
post #174 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Keep backpedalling. Would it really hurt you so much to admit that you were dead wrong?

I love this:


You're a riot.

So sad, you still haven't even addressed the thread. Since you can't be right on Rove, you have to start attacking me next. You are as predictable as the sun rising.

Address the thread.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #175 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Since you can't be right on Rove...

Absolutely mind-blowing.
post #176 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Absolutely mind-blowing.

hehe - it should have an age limit or surgeon's warning. Better still criminalize it.

Back on-topic, can someone actually pare it down for me as I'm confused. I get that Moore is supposed to have lied and that he is 'a bad person' (though why is unclear and uninteresting as it has no relevance on the truth or otherwise of his claims) but I can't find where he actually has been proved to have lied in the 911 film.

Can someone state the lie in plain English and show why it is untrue ? Or is this just a slagfest ?

Maybe I'm missing something, quite possible. If so point me to the relevant place in the thread.

Cheers in advance.

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post #177 of 407
Its kinda funny to watch Trumpt have to admit that he is wrong without admitting that he is wrong . . . just throw lots of words at us and we won't see it . . .

.

A PR firm who's sole purpose it is to sell Republicanism is not like the other groups mentioned (see Rageous's subtle and well worded post) . . . and they lied about their 'grass roots' origins!

Is that basic to the Republican 'values' that they purport to promote: lying like that?

I hope not . .. especially in the service of a back-door attempt at strong-arm censorship.
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--Franklin Miller.

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post #178 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman

Lastly we have the fact that you still prefer to focus no the perceived messenger since you haven't addressed Michael Moore profiting from keeping secret the torture of Iraqi's.

I'm sure you'll address it someday though.

Nick

Instead of flaming each other, does anyone care to read and respond to my previous post, the one that says the AP had footage of US soldiers conducting a raid and beating/abusing Iraqi citizens on camera long before Abu Ghraib?

This was footage distributed by the AP that was ignored by all major American news outlets. This is (reportedly) the same footage that is in Fahrenheit 911, and was also aired on Australian television.

So it was not "secret" footage, it was footage shopped out by the AP that no one in the States cared to pick up. It may have been mismarketed, actively suppressed, or simply overlooked. But it was definitely not secret.

There are plenty of reasons to bash Michael Moore. But trying to spin this into a simple case of him hiding evidence of torture? That's utterly ridiculous.
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post #179 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Gizzmonic
Instead of flaming each other, does anyone care to read and respond to my previous post, the one that says the AP had footage of US soldiers conducting a raid and beating/abusing Iraqi citizens on camera long before Abu Ghraib?

This was footage distributed by the AP that was ignored by all major American news outlets. This is (reportedly) the same footage that is in Fahrenheit 911, and was also aired on Australian television.

So it was not "secret" footage, it was footage shopped out by the AP that no one in the States cared to pick up. It may have been mismarketed, actively suppressed, or simply overlooked. But it was definitely not secret.

There are plenty of reasons to bash Michael Moore. But trying to spin this into a simple case of him hiding evidence of torture? That's utterly ridiculous.

Gizz,

I don't think this is the same footage. I am willing to admit that I don't have any other basis for this than Moore's own explanation of the matter. I'm sure if the footage were an AP feed, he would have mentioned how others could have shown it as well.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #180 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by giant
Absolutely mind-blowing.

It is mind-blowing isn't it. How you can post, what, about ten times and still never address the actual subject of the thread.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #181 of 407
My contribution to Michael Moore, I have written the ad copy that would sell the flick to more of its target audience:


setup:
Open with a deep gong and 3 sec. of slow motion footage of 911, that fades into the now infamous footage of bush on the golf course

Bush on the golf course:"..."

fade into random intimidateing shots of admin officials and gas price signs
queue announcer: "Bush sent us to Iraq for oil...(yada yada yada)"

over some stills of the military in Iraq and flash up the text of favorable movie reviews (although most would be as fake as the movie its self)

then have the announcer speak a little truth: "America-hating terrorists give Fahrenheit 9/11 their highest rating of five turbans"
Fade to the MPAA info and rating.

That would be a killer ad
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post #182 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by a_greer
Really Long and Lame attempt at humor...........etc etc etc

You don't use Macs do you? Or maybe you're just having an "off" day from a creative standpoint?
So....any news regarding "Sadom Husain"?
post #183 of 407
So let me get this straight. Michael Moore puts out a film against Bush. Conservatives make a website against Moore. Shocking, all.
post #184 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
So let me get this straight. Michael Moore puts out a film against Bush. Conservatives make a website against Moore. Shocking, all.

No.

Conservatives organize a campaign to intimidate theater owners into not showing Michael Moore's film.

In case you haven't been paying attention, there has been a rising tide of threats and violence against "leftist terrorist lovers that hate America". These "make your displeasure known" deals are rapidly becoming code for "by any means necessary".

The idea that "hateful partisanship" is shared in equal measure by America's left and right is a lie. The frequent use of "hate" on these boards to describe critique of Bush policies is a vicious lie.

At heart, the American right is becoming a entity of implicit violence and intimidation, increasingly crossing into explicit violence and extra-legality.

Read Ann Coulter. Read Rush Limbaugh. Read Michael Savage. Read Bill O'Reilly. These are the voices that speak for the "patriots". They speak of Democrats and liberalism as traitorous and deserving of violent repression. They equate criticism of Bush with support of terrorism and hatred of America. They are very serious.

What is to be done with people who "support terrorists?" Who could blame a patriot if they took matters into their own hands? The very survival of America is at stake.

So if an organized rightist campaign to encourage theater owners to think twice about booking "Fahrenheit 911" seems to have a little extra heat behind it, a little insinuation that maybe things could get a little out of hand if said theater owner chooses to collaborate with terrorists (and please, don't tell me I'm reaching, because this is the logic, it is being disseminated by pundits on mainstream "liberal media" as much as furtive blogs of neo-nazi thugs), then who could blame a patriot for taking direct action against a theater that obviously hates America?

It's going to happen. Somewhere where "Fahrenheit 911" is showing is going to be the object of violence. And the right wing will decry the "isolated incident", and excoriate anyone who implies that this is the harvest of the poisoned rhetoric of America's new crypto-fascist brown shirt class. And the work of choking off dissent will continue. A few more will conclude that it's just not worth it to fuck with these people.

And the right will continue to lament the irrational hatred of the left.

You're either with us or against us. This is war.
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post #185 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
In case you haven't been paying attention, there has been a rising tide of threats and violence against "leftist terrorist lovers that hate America". These "make your displeasure known" deals are rapidly becoming code for "by any means necessary".

Is that so? Please link to documented reports of the rising tide of violence against these US citizens who choose to disagree with Bush policy?

No doubt the level of verbal ugliness has been ramped up by BOTH sides. To deny that is to lie. While it's quite easy to point out the escalating level of verbal bashing being put out by the left and right, I challenge you to prove your claim there is a rising tide of violence becoming committed against those on the left by the right. You're making a stretch.
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post #186 of 407
Liberal has become a bad word.
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post #187 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
No doubt the level of verbal ugliness has been ramped up by BOTH sides.

How about we look at the rise and nature of conservative talk radio, television and books?*

Hell, even if the claim that mainstream media is liberal media, it only drives the point home more.

*And before we start getting predictable posts: Air America is a response that emulates the belligerent character of right-wing talk radio, and franken's whole book is a satire of right-wing commentary.
post #188 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by rageous
Is that so? Please link to documented reports of the rising tide of violence against these US citizens who choose to disagree with Bush policy?

No doubt the level of verbal ugliness has been ramped up by BOTH sides. To deny that is to lie. While it's quite easy to point out the escalating level of verbal bashing being put out by the left and right, I challenge you to prove your claim there is a rising tide of violence becoming committed against those on the left by the right. You're making a stretch.

Let's start with the rhetoric that underlies the atmosphere of violence.
Here's Ann Coulter:

Among other gems:

Quote:
"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors." (at the Conservative Political Action Conference, 02/26/2002)

Here's Michael Savage:

Quote:
Right now, even people sitting on the fence would like George Bush to drop a nuclear weapon on an Arab country. They don't even care which one it would be.

Here's Rush:

Quote:
I'm going to tell you is what's good for Al Qaeda is good for the Democratic Party in this country today. That's how you boil this down. And it doesn't have to be Al Qaeda. What's good for terrorists is good for John Kerry. All you got to do is check the way they react. [3/15/04]

and

Quote:
So the only real question is, if Al Qaeda's active and capable, what are they going to do? Because we know what they want: they want Kerry, they want the Democrats in power. They'd love that -- I mean, based simply on what they're saying and how they're reacting to what happened in Spain. I'm not guessing. [3/15/04]

Here's Kathleen Parker, a regular conservative columnist for the Boulder News:

Quote:
The next five years will determine what kind of world his children and grandchildren inherit, he said. And he doesn't "trust" any of the nine Democratic presidential candidates to secure that future.

Miller is not alone, though some are more sanguine when it comes to evaluating the roster of contenders. Here's a note I got recently from a friend and former Delta Force member, who has been observing American politics from the trenches: "These bastards like Clark and Kerry and that incipient ass, Dean, and Gephardt and Kucinich and that absolute mental midget Sharpton, race baiter, should all be lined up and shot.

In case your wondering, Ms. Parker finds that "a little emotional".

Here's Rabbi Daniel Lappin, nationally syndicated radio talk show host and author:

Quote:
There were, and are, "two incompatible moral visions for this country. We had to settle it then. We're going to have to settle it now. I hope not with blood, not with guns, but we're going to have to settle it nonetheless. The good news is that I think our side is finally ready to settle it. Roll up its sleeves, take off its jacket, and get a little bloody. Spill a little blood. We'll settle it. And we'll win. And then there's no holding us back."

And here are some snippets from good old Sean Hannity:

Quote:
HANNITY: (to attorney Stanley Cohen) "Is it you hate this president or that you hate America?" (4/30/03)


HANNITY: "Governor, why wouldn't anyone want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, unless they detested their own country or were ignorant of its greatness?" (6/12/03)


HANNITY: "You could explain something about your magazine, [the Nation]. Lisa Featherstone writing about the hate America march, the [anti-war] march that took place over the weekend..." (1/22/03)


HANNITY: "'I hate America.' This is the extreme left. There is a portion of the left -- not everybody who's left -- that does hate this country and blame this country for the ills of the world..." (1/23/02)


HANNITY: (speaking to Sara Flounders co-director of the International Action Center) "You don't like this country, do you? You don't -- you think this is an evil country. By your description of it right here, you think it's a bad country." (9/25/01)



I could go on like this ad nauseam, but you get the point.

Everyone quoted here is a national figure or as access to mainstream media outlets.

Moving on, we have overt threats against individuals, such as 9/11 commissioner Jamie Gorelick:

Quote:
amie Gorelick, a member of the commission investigating the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, said Saturday that she received death threats this week after a number of conservatives alleged that her former work in the Justice Department may have contributed to failures leading to the attacks.

Things are apparently getting ugly in Maryland

Quote:
Advocates from Casa de Maryland said Impallaria turned on one of their lobbyists in the hallway, questioning her immigration status.


"He called me an illegal and said, 'You are probably one of those who broke the law,' " said Natali Fani, 23, a Latina lobbyist for the Takoma Park-based advocacy group. "He was pointing his finger right in my face, and he was yelling. It was really ugly."


Jamie Kendrick, a union leader working with the group, said he intervened, only to have McDonough push him in the hallway of the Lowe House Office Building.


"He physically shoved me aside," said Kendrick, executive director of the Service Employees International Union Maryland-DC state council. "It was kind of surreal. I have been doing this for eight to 12 years and have never seen a delegate come out of a hearing loaded for bear like that, and certainly never saw a delegate physically accost a member of the public like that."

Meanwhile, in my neck of the woods, an SF gallery owner got beat up for showing the wrong painting:

Quote:
A Bay Area woman is recovering after being physically attacked for her artwork.

Lori Haigh owns an art gallery in San Francisco's North Beach.

She had been getting threatening calls. And now, someone hit her, giving her a black eye -- all because of some paintings.

The paintings show American soldiers torturing naked Iraqis.

The owner says she cannot believe she was attacked, but is now too scared to keep her gallery open.

San Francisco police say they are looking for suspects.

I can keep this up for quite a while, but I would like to ask this of you, Rageous:

Where is the reciprocal leftist rhetoric and action? If it is always "both sides", as you assert, could you link to some nationally syndicated voices of the left that are calling for the death of conservatives, the spilling of blood to cleanse the homeland, the nuking of other countries, the delegitimizing of republican party?
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post #189 of 407
As he said, these aren't hard to find be they on the left or right.

Jeff Jacoby even writes a yearly column about it. You can pick a year and pick your favorite from the left.

Leftist Hate Speech

Or you could save yourself some time and just listen to Randy Rhodes on AirAmerica for about 30 minutes.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #190 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Or you could save yourself some time and just listen to Randy Rhodes on AirAmerica for about 30 minutes.

Even though the ads on Air America are about the most annoying ads I've ever heard, I can still listen to Franken's show. But Randi Rhodes is completely unlistenable. Just unbearable. I can't make it through 5 minutes.
post #191 of 407
The "liberal media" interviews Moore.

BTW, Randi Rhodes pwnz
post #192 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
As he said, these aren't hard to find be they on the left or right.

Jeff Jacoby even writes a yearly column about it. You can pick a year and pick your favorite from the left.

Leftist Hate Speech

Or you could save yourself some time and just listen to Randy Rhodes on AirAmerica for about 30 minutes.

Nick

So apparently "leftist hate speech" is largely about calling the right "fascists" or using "Hitler" in the same sentence. That, or something along the lines of "Man, I wish that asshole would just die already". Given the examples of the article, it is also a bit thin on the ground. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the whole premise of the article, outing leftist "hate speech" that apparently goes unremarked, is a stretch.

And this is offered up as the "reciprocal" speech to the now routine notion of the the right that:

-- The left is traitorous, treasonous, and in league with terrorists. Given that we are actually at war with terrorists, this is akin to calling people Hitler in 1942, a little more likely to have actual consequences than calling someone Hitler now.

-- The left is fundamentally illegitimate, as in not really American and not prepared to defend the country, so that literally any means of avoiding Democratic rule is permitted. Something like how Bush has asserted the WOT as the answer to every question about extra-legal means, defeating Kerry becomes a matter of survival for the country, thus, whatever it takes.

-- If it takes a blood bath, let's get it over with. Predicated on one and two above, it follows that the war for the soul and survival of the USA may involve some shooting, just as the founding fathers intended. This kind of talk is endemic to a right wing that thinks in terms of millennial crisis, external threat as a unifying agent, black and white morality, and the strong hand of discipline and control.

By the way, the bloodbath quote is from Governor Ronald Reagan in re civil disobedience in Berkeley . Heart and soul of the party, right?

So of course it's possible to find intemperate speech from people of the left. They will say things like, "I think Bush is a jackass. I think the Republicans are a bunch of jack-booted thugs (although that one seemed to have been monopolized by republican members of congress sympathetic to violent military groups and their struggle against federal tyranny during the Clinton administration), I wish Ashcroft would die, anybody but Bush".

But there is a difference in kind to the rhetoric of the right. It is of a piece, and it leads to action.

I, for one, haven't forgotten the spectacle of the mob of thugs sent by Tom deLay to Florida to intimidate the people working on the recount. It was a shocking scene, but so a part of what has become business as usual for the Republicans that it was barely remarked upon, and then only in the context of sore loser Dems.

Death threats, book burnings, physical intimidation, clinic bombings, para-military nut-jobs, brutally intolerant radio hosts who call for the death of entire groups of people, television shows cancelled, concerts cancelled, meetings and rallies cancelled, activists on "no-fly" lists, the steady stream of email to liberal columnists and commentators ("You peece of shit you arnt really a American maybe a bulet will teach you to love this country you pig), God's will and the final battle.

And someone saying that Bush is a fascist offsets all of this, makes it tit for tat. Everybody does it, politics as usual, nothing to see here.

Here's a simple test. Go to San Francisco, go to a bar, hell, go to a gay bar. Strike up a conversation in which it become evident that you are a die-hard Republican Bush supporter. People will call you a ninny, or try to talk you out of it, or shun you. Someone might even bore you to tears with a lecture about how "people like you are ruining the country".

Now go to a blue collar bar (like I have), in, say, Omaha, or anywhere in Texas, or Toledo, or Arizona. Let it be known that you're a serious leftist, tax and spend liberal, income redistribution, the whole nine yards. Savor the air of menace. Realize that unless you shut your mouth, you have a pretty good chance of getting your ass kicked.

And that is what this is really all about, at the end of the day. The kind of people who tend to ally themselves with which politics.

The Republican party has become the party of ass kicking. The party of "somebody needs to teach that faggot a lesson". The party of "maybe a little torture is what those rag heads had coming". The party of "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out", the party of the end times.

And the national rhetoric reflects that. The itchy trigger finger. The sense that maybe it's time to clean house.

And of course for the vast majority of Republicans that's all it is, rhetoric. Just the taunting and threats of a bully who's not really ready to throw down.

But, you know, "we're at war". "Jesus is coming". "God hates it when the secularists win". And Rush, and Savage, and Dr. Laura, and Coulter, and Fox, they're egging you on. They're telling you you're right. These fags that you've heard about, these pussies that would piss on the graves of our brave boys, that would force your children to be gay, that hate America-- why wouldn't you take matters into your own hands? Isn't the punishment treason death? Aren't those the wages of sin?

But it's OK. Franken called Rush a big fat idiot. Balance is restored.
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post #193 of 407
Adda, It's a little obvious that you don't desire to be convinced away from your view. I could, and have in the past, typed pages of pages of "proof" that is often discounted or ignored by someone such as yourself. Heck you've already discredited the one I just posted. So enjoy your view and believe it is only a one way street. There are plenty of other people out there who are a little more open to the reality of the situation.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #194 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
Adda, It's a little obvious that you don't desire to be convinced away from your view. I could, and have in the past, typed pages of pages of "proof" that is often discounted or ignored by someone such as yourself. Heck you've already discredited the one I just posted. So enjoy your view and believe it is only a one way street. There are plenty of other people out there who are a little more open to the reality of the situation.

Nick

Nick, I would be happy to be persuaded by having it demonstrated that the left traffics in a consistent, widely disseminated rhetoric of:

1) the fundamental illegitimacy of the Republican party
2) the anti-Americanism of the Republican party
3) the treason (punishable by death, remember) of the Republican party
4) the delight the Republican party takes in damage to America and the
death of its fighting forces.
5) the Republican party's approval of terrorism and terrorist's approval of the
Republican party.
6) the use of violence or the threat of violence by forces of the left to silence
dissent from the right.

Linking to the odd cranky liberal calling Bush names doesn't cut it.

I'm talking about a consistent, broadly articulated world view that doesn't allow for opposition as a legitimate force.

My entire point is that isn't a two way street. Pretending that it is is just another technique for legitimizing extremist rhetoric and action.

I will certainly acknowledge reciprocal politics in many areas, such as corruption, tainted fund raising, self-serving speechifying, hypocrisy, log-rolling, pork filled legislation, etc. Left and right, it's politics as usual.

I don't, in other words, think that "Republicans are bad and Democrats are good". There is a version of American conservatism that I strongly disagree with yet find perfectly respectable. Small government, individual liberty, fiscal prudence, reluctance to indulge in foreign entanglements, hostility to "income redistribution", etc. Not my thing, but I can see how people of good will would come to this set of principles.

But the rhetoric I'm talking about is something different. It has real blood in it's eye. I think it is possible to decry the excesses of right wing thuggery without declaring the Republican party, or conservative values, null and void.

I would think that you would be more interested in repudiating this ugly turn in your own house than looking for weak examples that purport to balance the scales. Every single utterance and action does not have a mirror image.

Why would it?
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post #195 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by addabox
Nick, I would be happy to be persuaded by having it demonstrated that the left traffics in a consistent, widely disseminated rhetoric of:

1) the fundamental illegitimacy of the Republican party

You're right. No one has ever called Bush an illegitimate president.

No one has ever used the word treason either.

No one claims that the Republican party hates anything. Of course a Google search doesn't seem to turn up anything.

Likewise Michael Moore never made a picture claiming that Bush allowed 9/11. Likewise Al Franken never wrote a book with a chapter called "Operation Ignore."

Again I could go on and on as well. But we will see if you even give any of these any credence.

Nick

"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

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post #196 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by trumptman
You're right. No one has ever called Bush an illegitimate president.

No one has ever used the word treason either.

No one claims that the Republican party hates anything. Of course a Google search doesn't seem to turn up anything.

Likewise Michael Moore never made a picture claiming that Bush allowed 9/11. Likewise Al Franken never wrote a book with a chapter called "Operation Ignore."

Again I could go on and on as well. But we will see if you even give any of these any credence.

Nick

It's not that I don't give these examples credence, it's that they are materially different than what I'm talking about.

For instance, your link to treason concerns the supreme court's decision in re the 2000 election. The author is concerned with the torturous legal reasoning the court used in justifying stopping the recount, and regards it as a grave blow to constitutional government, an opinion shared by quite a few legal scholars.

Conversely, the current right wing bandying about of "treason" seems to center on anyone criticizing the president, or criticizing America's behavior, or simply being "a liberal" since in the modern parlance being a liberal is tantamount to being a traitor.

Perhaps you could link to a reasoned legal argument as to how expounding liberal views is treasonous, which would be the appropriate analogue to the Nation article.

As far as calling the right haters, are you even looking at the right wing quotes I've been citing? If the right wants to call the left a bunch of hypocrites, or cry-babies, or no-nothings, or, yes, haters, fine and dandy by me. that really is politics as usual.

But that's not what I'm talking about. Can you really not see the difference? The rabbi is musing about spilling a little blood to set things right. Michael Savage believes in our hearts we want to indiscriminately nuke an Arab country. Ann Coulter thinks shooting John Walker Linhdh would serve as an example to liberals, putting them on notice that they, too, could be shot. Rush is absolutely equating the Democratic party with al Qaeda.
The Denver Post columnist is somewhat sympathetically citing a letter writer that thinks liberals should be lined up and shot.

And that's the stuff that goes on and on. And you think accusing Bush of failing to stop 9/11 when he might of had the chance is "the same". A specific critique, even if wrong, of failed policy, of missed opportunities, is somehow the same as calling for blood of liberals.

I don't know how else to say it. If you can't distinguish between "Liberals are traitorous dogs and al Qaeda wants Kerry for president", or, say, a gallery owner getting her face punched in because she showed the wrong painting, and "Bush has done a terrible job of prosecuting the the on terror and should be voted out" or "we hate that asshole let's work to defeat him" then, I guess, you can't or won't acknowledge my point.
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post #197 of 407
Quote:
I can keep this up for quite a while, but I would like to ask this of you, Rageous:

Where is the reciprocal leftist rhetoric and action? If it is always "both sides", as you assert, could you link to some nationally syndicated voices of the left that are calling for the death of conservatives, the spilling of blood to cleanse the homeland, the nuking of other countries, the delegitimizing of republican par

Well it kinda makes sense doesn't it? We're the people that want peace. Can you imagine a bunch of peace activists beating the shit out of a Republican? That'd be funny. They'd probably hit like girls. Oops did I say that?
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post #198 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
Liberal has become a bad word.

Has become? When was it ever anything else??

Sorry but I'm posting from a state (NJ) where the glorious liberal gov thinks it's okay to add a special and exclusive tax just for millionaires! Why? Well as McGreedy's ads say - 'because they're doing just fine'... Sorry but that kind of logic has always made my skin crawl. Oh and before anyone asks, NO I'm not a millionaire (but hey some day who knows) either way, to charge people an additional/exclusive tax just because they are 'doing just fine' (and BTW who says they are 'doing just fine' anyway - how the F does McGreedy know?!?! Did he call each and every one of them personally?!?!) Anyway this liberal crap is so.... is so... hell it's just wrong.

Apologies to all you people living in communist or socialist societies - if you like it GREAT but I don't. I like being able to be as successful as I can be and if my future child is so bless he could become a future billionaire - Unless you're sitting over a huge blob of oil there aren't too many other places where people could even dream such a thing.

Libs please don't screw things up here in the US... Why not just move somewhere that is already much further on it's way to your kind of paradise? I could name quite a few places but I'm sure you know them already. You could always come back here for things like clean water, GOOD healthcare and other such 'luxuries'. Oh wait, if you actually lived in one of those places chances are you wouldn't be able to afford to come back here and pay for such niceties.

Hmm maybe you should think about that for a minute. Eh?

Dave
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post #199 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveGee

Apologies to all you people living in communist or socialist societies - if you like it GREAT but I don't. I like being able to be as successful as I can be and if my future child is so bless he could become a future billionaire - Unless you're sitting over a huge blob of oil there aren't too many other places where people could even dream such a thing.

I love posts like this. So wrong, so blinkered. Hilarious.

You ARE sitting over a huge blob of oil. That's for starters. All oil is priced in dollars, hence the word 'petrodollar.' For someone to trade in energy, they need dollars, and when oil is pumped out of the ground a unique magic trick is created. Inflation-free money is created and pumped into the US economy. Even if it's Saudis selling oil to the French someone had to get hold of dollars. There ain't anything else super-special about America. It's easier to be a millionaire in America, and it's not your fucking tax system that makes it so.

In those 'socialist' countries you know so little about (I presume you mean Europe), more people have a higher standard of living, better access to good healthcare and they say they are happier then people in the US say they are. There is much smaller homicide rate, infant mortality is lower, the press is more free, women have a shot at leading their countries, we're less obese, we're now taller (better food), you can buy a beer years younger, drugs are easily available but less of a problem ... and we get to take longer holidays to enjoy our short lives. But we get taxed more.

Please pick one of the above and I'll find the statistic for you.

I'll keep the tax thanks; money does not make you happy. The above do.

Are those countries 'better' then the US? Well, I'd never say that. I DO think it's fair to say that you get told a bunch of bullshit about the rest of the world and about how fucking great America is though.

Oh, and I AM a millionaire by the way bubba, a real live one; capitalism Europe style seems to work for me. As in I AM NOT A SOCIALIST. I DO like it here, and if I get taxed a bit more so that kids in the ghetto don't feel like they have to shoot me to get my shit, then that's fine with me.
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post #200 of 407
Quote:
Originally posted by DaveGee
Has become? When was it ever anything else??

Sorry but I'm posting from a state (NJ) where the glorious liberal gov thinks it's okay to add a special and exclusive tax just for millionaires! Why? Well as McGreedy's ads say - 'because they're doing just fine'... Sorry but that kind of logic has always made my skin crawl. Oh and before anyone asks, NO I'm not a millionaire (but hey some day who knows) either way, to charge people an additional/exclusive tax just because they are 'doing just fine' (and BTW who says they are 'doing just fine' anyway - how the F does McGreedy know?!?! Did he call each and every one of them personally?!?!) Anyway this liberal crap is so.... is so... hell it's just wrong.

Apologies to all you people living in communist or socialist societies - if you like it GREAT but I don't. I like being able to be as successful as I can be and if my future child is so bless he could become a future billionaire - Unless you're sitting over a huge blob of oil there aren't too many other places where people could even dream such a thing.

Libs please don't screw things up here in the US... Why not just move somewhere that is already much further on it's way to your kind of paradise? I could name quite a few places but I'm sure you know them already. You could always come back here for things like clean water, GOOD healthcare and other such 'luxuries'. Oh wait, if you actually lived in one of those places chances are you wouldn't be able to afford to come back here and pay for such niceties.

Hmm maybe you should think about that for a minute. Eh?

Dave

Hey Dave--

Just curious why you think you get to define what America "really" is, thereby rendering "liberals" as people who should move somewhere else.

How about this--why don't you move elsewhere? Somewhere where unfettered capitalism (and you've never seen it, it's pretty ferocious) is in full cry. Say one of the developing regions of the world, where profit ranks above human life. Low taxes though!

That way, we can start to clear out the mindlessly greedy people whose antipathy to taxes and social services stand in the way of America having decent health care, access to top notch education, an infra-structure that isn't starting to crumble, and national policies that aren't completely in hock to the corporations that pay for our political system.

Because your philosophy strikes me as un-American, un-civic, and unpatriotic. I think you should get out. Really. Get the hell out of my country. People like you screw it up for everybody else.
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