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Immigration out of control-Newsweek - Page 3

post #81 of 185
6/10/05 at 2:12pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
Ahhh, there you go. I don't see you differentiate between US born latinos/legal latino immigrants and latinos who got here illegally so I'm going to assume all Latinos=illegal immigrants=problems to you. It's not like Latinos become criminals or bums when they drop out of HS either.
That is true. So? Let's get to the root of the problem and first of all, help them get to college. Let's try and fix that without "assuming" all latinos= illegals. I could wipe my ..... with "speculation". Specially based on FAIR's credentials. lol More "speculation". So all this is actually about....helping latinos in the US? How noble of "FAIR" and you. How sweet.

Since you purposely grouped all latinos into one category, I shall do the same and finish by saying that I sure want to get my hands on those latino $1- trillion- by- 2010 purchasing dollars. I have no doubt that there is no worst case scenario- not even one by FAIR- capable of offsetting the benefit of 1 TRILLION dollars into our economy.

I urge everyone to research that joke called "FAIR" and latino workforce and economic numbers. Maybe you'll also find the thread starter's argument shifts quite telling.

Edit: By the way. I do think porous borders and illegal immigration are problems we need to deal with pronto.

I believe in workers' programs and amnesty to those who have been here paying taxes and contributing to our economy long enough.

The study actually concentrated on LEGAL latino immigrants, not illegals.
The study showed that further high immigration rates hinder advancement for latinos.
You cannot force people to get educated. Its more of a community effort than a govmnt effort, although if they can come up with something that works, I'm all for it.
Getting rid of bilingual education is one way to help.
As for FAIR, they had nothing to do with the article, thats why i thought some of you might find it difficult to jump all over a respected economist writing an article that FAIR could have written itself, saying essentially the same things I have said and that FAIR have said.
Unfortunately, your mind's made up and anything contradictory to your views is automatically racist or just plain wrong.

Amnesty? They don't deserve it and shouldn't get it.
Let them get back in line with everyone else.
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post #82 of 185
6/10/05 at 2:13pm
None of you got the point. Never-mind.

If every immigrant, legal or no, got paid minimum wage tomorrow, they would contribute more to the economy, and thus generate growth in other areas. This is the nature of an economy.

Agriculture is not the whole of the American economy, either. So if all illegals left tomorrow, demand would immediately cause wages to increase until the situation settled itself out. A 16% (remember theoretical) increase in operating costs is better than no crops or profits.

I take it none of you are business people?
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post #83 of 185
6/10/05 at 2:14pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
We are already paying for the illegals. The "expensive oranges talk is nonsense. How about the expensive schools, the expensive hospitals, and the cops and the firemen? We are already paying for our oranges.

What we need to do:

-Stop the flow of illegals--yes we can do this

-Maintain legal immigration at a level that we can support

-Initiate a guest worker program for agricultural jobs and make the employers responsible for their people.


Over and over I hear about how this nation was built by immigrants. It was, but a lot has changes over the last 100 years. Once we were an open land hungry for people to settle and expand this developing country. It is not like that today. We are a mature nation. We can no longer take anyone who wants to be here. It is not anti-anybody or racist. It is a physical and economic reality.

Moe, you're being too rational. Midwinter, hardeharhar, and the other idiot don't understand common sense.
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post #84 of 185
6/10/05 at 2:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
From my point of view, they are the hardest working people in the country - so how could they be the "poorest performing"?

Education and moving into the middle class.
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post #85 of 185
6/10/05 at 2:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Good point. And again, we're back to my earlier point that this is about class, not race (although race is a subset of class, I argue). The Irish who came here following the blight in the 1840s were OVERWHELMINGLY poor. Bad poor. Awful poor. The kind of poor most folks who don't read Engels's Condition of the Working Poor can't even begin to imagine.

Why is it so surprising that an impoverished sector of the population doesn't, on average, suddenly start acting all WASP middle class?

But there have been ebbs and tides of immigration rates.
For the last 20-30 years there has been no let-up. What they are saying is that there needs to be a period of slowdown in immigration to give those who are here now a greater chance to move up and assimilate.
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post #86 of 185
6/10/05 at 2:21pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by e1618978
I was making a side point about the value of Mexican immegrants (both legal and illegal), they are an overwhelming presence that cannot be replaced by other labor.

All of those jobs will have to pay a lot more if there are fewer Mexican people available. Supply of workers will dry up, and wages will go up, and costs will go up, as will food prices and inflation.

Funny, I thought there were immigrants from all over the world that want to come here. How about spreading it out between other groups that may have something else to offer us?

Illegals can be replaced by...........legals.
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post #87 of 185
6/10/05 at 2:23pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
So now, rather than address my points or read what I've said, you decide to call me a "little runt."

Nice.

Edit: to which I should add the following. I'm not a "little runt." I'm 12 feet tall and have 7 black-belts in various forms of martial arts. And I breathe fire.

I love internet tough guys.

Interesting.
I try to keep the discussion civil, then I get called racist, coward, etc.
I decide to finally answer back and now I'm the bad guy?
Typical liberal. Now thats a dirty word
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post #88 of 185
6/10/05 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
But there have been ebbs and tides of immigration rates.

Yes. And typically, those fluctuations in immigration rates are tied to economic disturbances or natural disasters. Ireland is really the only comparison here.

Quote:
For the last 20-30 years there has been no let-up. What they are saying is that there needs to be a period of slowdown in immigration to give those who are here now a greater chance to move up and assimilate. [/B]

Great. My point throughout this whole discussion has been that you are not ever ever ever going to get Canadians to stop sneaking across the border and getting jobs that would otherwise, presumably, go to legal workers. If you want to stop it, go after the companies/industries that hire them.

I would also point out what should be fairly obvious: not everyone can move up. Not everyone can be WASP middle class. I'm not talking about ability or capacity. I'm saying that the economy NECESSITATE a poor/working/labor class, just as it necessitates that there be some degree of unemployment (or "surplus labor" as it used to be called).
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post #89 of 185
6/10/05 at 2:25pm
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
If every immigrant, legal or no, got paid minimum wage tomorrow. They would contribute more to the economy, and thus generate growth in other areas. This is the nature of an economy.

What?? Can we have English please?
Quote:
A 16% (remember theoretical) increase in operating costs is better than no crops or profits.

That's the whole bloody point. A "theoretical" 16% increase in operating costs would wipe out many businesses with lower profit margins.
Quote:
I take it none of you are business people?



It's obvious you aren't.
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post #90 of 185
6/10/05 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Interesting.
I try to keep the discussion civil, then I get called racist, coward, etc.
I decide to finally answer back and now I'm the bad guy?
Typical liberal. Now thats a dirty word

Just quoting this so that it won't disappear.
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post #91 of 185
6/10/05 at 2:27pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch

It's obvious you aren't.

I thought the same thing. And then I hoped he wasn't an economist.
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post #92 of 185
6/10/05 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
What?? Can we have English please?

Once again, you childishly point out typos and mistakes, rather than address issues. I guarantee I will make more misspellings and typos, so now is the perfect time to be a grown up little boy and get over it.



Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
That's the whole bloody point. A "theoretical" 16% increase in operating costs would wipe out many businesses with lower profit margins.

It's obvious you aren't.

In my example of totally made up numbers, I illustrated how an increase in one or a couple of areas might only increase overall cost by a small percentage. So a 200% increase in labor costs for my example only resulted in a 16% increase in overall cost.

However the thing that you are missing, is the agricultural companies that are illegally hiring illegals, are making more profits than they are legally allowed to. That means that profit margins, wholesale and retail costs along with labor costs are being artificially deflated or inflated anyway.

These corporations and companies are passing on costs to you and I, the legal taxpayer, to provide health care, housing and many other costs. So in reality you are fighting and paying for the illegal profiting by unscrupulous businesses.
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post #93 of 185
6/10/05 at 4:55pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
The US has never had this long a period of endlessly high numbers of poor immigrants. Thats just legal immigrants, throw in illegals and the problem is worse.
As for the massive language barrier, that doesn't seem to be such a problem for most asian immigrants, russian immigrants, etc etc.
And their study showed that second generation latinos also seem to fall behind other ethnic groups.
Those aren't meaningless unless you want to ignore them.

Again... language barrier...

Look at it this way: most immigrants from other countries come to the US knowing English. Latinos generally do not. It would be as if france was all of the sudden an attractive place to live for everyone... The British would have a better time coping with the enormous language barrier since they learn french in school than would Americans....
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post #94 of 185
6/10/05 at 4:56pm
Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
Once again, you childishly point out typos and mistakes, rather than address issues. I guarantee I will make more misspellings and typos, so now is the perfect time to be a grown up little boy and get over it.



In my example of totally made up numbers, I illustrated how an increase in one or a couple of areas might only increase overall cost by a small percentage. So a 200% increase in labor costs for my example only resulted in a 16% increase in overall cost.

However the thing that you are missing, is the agricultural companies that are illegally hiring illegals, are making more profits than they are legally allowed to. That means that profit margins, wholesale and retail costs along with labor costs are being artificially deflated or inflated anyway.

These corporations and companies are passing on costs to you and I, the legal taxpayer, to provide health care, housing and many other costs. So in reality you are fighting and paying for the illegal profiting by unscrupulous businesses.

We aren't talking about illegals here. We are talking about legal immigrants whom steve666 doesn't want any more.
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post #95 of 185
6/10/05 at 5:09pm
Totally off-topic, but this is one of the funniest things I've ever read.

Quote:
Originally posted by NaplesX
In my example of totally made up numbers, I illustrated. . . .
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post #96 of 185
6/10/05 at 5:32pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Again... language barrier...

Look at it this way: most immigrants from other countries come to the US knowing English. Latinos generally do not. It would be as if france was all of the sudden an attractive place to live for everyone... The British would have a better time coping with the enormous language barrier since they learn french in school than would Americans....

Really? All those Russians, South Vietnamese, Koreans, Chinese, etc come here speaking English? You wouldn't know it since there are 7 Chinese language newspapers in NY alone.
I think you are mistaken.
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post #97 of 185
6/10/05 at 5:33pm
By the way. Calling Samuelson a "respected" economist was funny. Very funny.
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post #98 of 185
6/10/05 at 5:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
By the way. Calling Samuelson a "respected" economist was funny. Very funny.

Considering that fact that he wrote the book I used in my College Economics Course, I would say that he's respected.

Why do you think he isn't?
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post #99 of 185
6/10/05 at 6:09pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Really? All those Russians, South Vietnamese, Koreans, Chinese, etc come here speaking English? You wouldn't know it since there are 7 Chinese language newspapers in NY alone.
I think you are mistaken.

Spinning things, bottom line was people who came to America learned English, they had to. Now days due to our Dumbass politicians the rest of the country will need to learn spanish to keep up with these illegals who are overtaking our country while the Fed is looking the otherway because of the $$$. Our country has been screwed more by its own politics,congress and presidents then any Enemy ever could have caused.
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post #100 of 185
6/10/05 at 6:35pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Why do you think he isn't?

Is that what you read at "FAIR"? He's a financial journalist with a B.A in government.
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post #101 of 185
6/10/05 at 7:05pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Really? All those Russians, South Vietnamese, Koreans, Chinese, etc come here speaking English? You wouldn't know it since there are 7 Chinese language newspapers in NY alone.
I think you are mistaken.

Nope.
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post #102 of 185
6/10/05 at 7:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
Is that what you read at "FAIR"? He's a financial journalist with a B.A in government.

And Newsweek is now hiring hacks?
Please, you don't like him because he has an opinion different from your own.
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post #103 of 185
6/10/05 at 7:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Nope.

Yep.
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post #104 of 185
6/10/05 at 7:43pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
Yep.

No. You are wrong, seriously.
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post #105 of 185
6/10/05 at 7:48pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
No. You are wrong, seriously.

actually, I am correct. Most immigrants come here not knowing a word of English.
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post #106 of 185
6/10/05 at 8:00pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
actually, I am correct. Most immigrants come here not knowing a word of English.

Not a word?

That is just wrong.

Most immigrants?

I never claimed that most immigrants did anything, I specifically said most immigrants from outside of latin america come to the US with significant english skills (significant as measured versus our own native dual language speaking proclivities)...

Re: Your retarded chinese paper example. I never claimed that people forget how to speak their native language when they get to the US.

You really don't know what you are talking about...
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post #107 of 185
6/10/05 at 9:39pm
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
And Newsweek is now hiring hacks?
Please, you don't like him because he has an opinion different from your own.

I didn't say he was a hack or that I didn't like him. You said he was a "respected economist". Prove it. Don't forget the name of his book you used in that College Economics Course.
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
thats why i thought some of you might find it difficult to jump all over a respected economist writing an article that FAIR could have written itself

Prove he's a "respected economist".

By your own words, I guess if you lied about him being a "respected economist" he must be a hack.
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post #108 of 185
6/10/05 at 10:59pm
A respected economist is any economist that will support 666's agenda. Just look at his nickname for example. That's a 'respected nickname'.
'L'enfer, c'est les autres' - JPS
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post #109 of 185
6/10/05 at 11:04pm
And now we're completely off track.

1) Is "immigration" actually out of control?

2) Can illegal immigration be stopped?

3) What would the effects of any policy have on the economy?
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post #110 of 185
6/11/05 at 5:49am
1. Yes, thats fact
2. Yes, Just look at the minuteman with no budget.
3. Little, but George has made such a mess of things that even million's of illegal's $$$ mean more to him then his "war" on Terror and so the illegals,the Al-queda' and anyone else is allowed to roam in to make up for his Party's Fiscal mess. We can spend Billion's in Iraq but cant spare a few bucks for the border.Its Amazing Discrace.
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post #111 of 185
6/11/05 at 9:17am
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
1. Yes, thats fact
2. Yes, Just look at the minuteman with no budget.
3. Little, but George has made such a mess of things that even million's of illegal's $$$ mean more to him then his "war" on Terror and so the illegals,the Al-queda' and anyone else is allowed to roam in to make up for his Party's Fiscal mess. We can spend Billion's in Iraq but cant spare a few bucks for the border.Its Amazing Discrace.

2. NO. GODDAMN IT ALL. LOOK. THE VAST MAJORITY OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS OVERSTAY THEIR LEGALLY OBTAINED WORK VISAS AND ARE NOT BORDER HOPPERS.
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post #112 of 185
6/11/05 at 9:36am
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
2. NO. GODDAMN IT ALL. LOOK. THE VAST MAJORITY OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS OVERSTAY THEIR LEGALLY OBTAINED WORK VISAS AND ARE NOT BORDER HOPPERS.

Its both for sure but i would rather have "knowns" in this country then unknowns who are strolling across the borders by the thousands & thousands. Why are you so opposed to enforcing our border. We just suppose to ignore this and continue the soaking of the American taxpayer on everything? Sorry, there is a line where my country ends and others begin.Immigration is out of control thanks to a Washington who is out of control. Big Business.
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post #113 of 185
6/11/05 at 10:48am
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
1. Yes, thats fact

Ok. I'd like to see some facts. Maybe you can find something on the US Immigration office web page to substantiate this claim. Thanks.

Quote:
2. Yes, Just look at the minuteman with no budget.

Look at them do what? Do you have data about their effectiveness?

Quote:
3. Little, but George has made such a mess of things that even million's of illegal's $$$ mean more to him then his "war" on Terror and so the illegals,the Al-queda' and anyone else is allowed to roam in to make up for his Party's Fiscal mess. We can spend Billion's in Iraq but cant spare a few bucks for the border.Its Amazing Discrace. [/B]

Bush's various wars are beside the point. What would the effects be of severely limiting the number of immigrantsillegal or otherwisewho currently hold jobs?
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post #114 of 185
6/11/05 at 11:23am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
Not a word?

That is just wrong.

Most immigrants?

I never claimed that most immigrants did anything, I specifically said most immigrants from outside of latin america come to the US with significant english skills (significant as measured versus our own native dual language speaking proclivities)...

Re: Your retarded chinese paper example. I never claimed that people forget how to speak their native language when they get to the US.

You really don't know what you are talking about...

You honestly believe that the poor Chinese and South Vietnamese immigrants come here speaking English?
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post #115 of 185
6/11/05 at 11:24am
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
You honestly believe that the poor Chinese and South Vietnamese immigrants come here speaking English?

My point again.
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post #116 of 185
6/11/05 at 11:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gilsch
I didn't say he was a hack or that I didn't like him. You said he was a "respected economist". Prove it. Don't forget the name of his book you used in that College Economics Course.
Prove he's a "respected economist".

By your own words, I guess if you lied about him being a "respected economist" he must be a hack.

I went to College over 20 years ago, the chance of me remembering the name of the book is about the same as me remembering anything I actually learned in college

Samuelson is very well known. I can't make you believe that he is respected, but I really don't know why you would doubt it out of hand.
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post #117 of 185
6/11/05 at 11:27am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Gene Clean
A respected economist is any economist that will support 666's agenda. Just look at his nickname for example. That's a 'respected nickname'.

I never said that, however it seems that if a economist agrees with me on immigration than to you and the rest of the three stooges, he can't be respected.

I don't believe he has ever written anything on immigration before.
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post #118 of 185
6/11/05 at 11:29am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
My point again.

And your point is?
Most immigrants come to this country looking for opportunity. Not all are poor, but most are
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post #119 of 185
6/11/05 at 11:33am
Quote:
Originally posted by steve666
And your point is?
Most immigrants come to this country looking for opportunity. Not all are poor, but most are

My point throughout this whole thing has been that the larger, more important issue being dredged up with all this anti-immigrant nonsense is not racism, but classism. Your remark about poor immigrants was precisely what I'm talking about.
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post #120 of 185
6/11/05 at 11:48am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
My point throughout this whole thing has been that the larger, more important issue being dredged up with all this anti-immigrant nonsense is not racism, but classism. Your remark about poor immigrants was precisely what I'm talking about.

If it were just about classism, then the same argument could be made for all poor immigrant groups.
Hispanic immigrants, even second generation, have a harder time becoming upwardly mobile (and I dont mean rich I mean middle class), graduate high school at lower rates, go to college at lower rates, than other immigrant groups.

Since they are the largest group of immigrants that does not bode well for this country.
Should latinos continue being the largest group of immigrants into this country or should we change the mix to allow fewer latinos and more asians and europeans?
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