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Jerusalem bans Gay Pride

post #1 of 290
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The authorities in Jerusalem have banned a Gay Pride March scheduled to take place in the city on the grounds it would be "provocative" and set off unrest although what sort of unrest is unclear - perhaps sleepless nights for any bigots in the vicinity.

Quote:
It wouldn't be right to authorise the march and the related festivities in Jerusalem out of the concern that it would be provocative and hurt the feelings of the broader public living in and visiting the city," the municipality said in a public notice to the organisers.

Clearly there are some bigots at work and as usual, the focus inevitably turns to those of a religious variety. This being the rabidly pro-Israel BBC however, and coupled with the Jerusalem focus of the article, it is of course absolutely necessary to shift the focus onto the 'barbarian Muslims'.

Under the (admittedly entertaining) headline of Sodom Fears the situation is clarified, the Israeli authorities absolved and Islam suitably underlined as a barbaric 'evil' that encompasses all levels of bigotry as an (un-named) 'Mulsim cleric' was given the spotlight to voice his opinion that:

Quote:
gay events in Jerusalem would attract divine wrath similar to that which destroyed the biblical city of Sodom.

Which seems rather a strange thing for a Muslim cleric to say as neither Sodom or Gomorrah are mentioned in the Qur'an and represent a tradition that is purely Judeo-Christian and completely unknown in Islamic tradition.

But I digress. It is the Jerusalem authorities that are banning this - not the most noted authority for supporting either Gay or Muslim concerns - ostensibly on the grounds that it will 'cause violence'.

Anyone any thoughts ?
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post #2 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
The authorities in Jerusalem have banned a Gay Pride March scheduled to take place in the city on the grounds it would be "provocative" and set off unrest although what sort of unrest is unclear - perhaps sleepless nights for any bigots in the vicinity.



Clearly there are some bigots at work and as usual, the focus inevitably turns to those of a religious variety. This being the rabidly pro-Israel BBC however, and coupled with the Jerusalem focus of the article, it is of course absolutely necessary to shift the focus onto the 'barbarian Muslims'.

Under the (admittedly entertaining) headline of Sodom Fears the situation is clarified, the Israeli authorities absolved and Islam suitably underlined as a barbaric 'evil' that encompasses all levels of bigotry as an (un-named) 'Mulsim cleric' was given the spotlight to voice his opinion that:



Which seems rather a strange thing for a Muslim cleric to say as neither Sodom or Gomorrah are mentioned in the Qur'an and represent a tradition that is purely Judeo-Christian and completely unknown in Islamic tradition.

But I digress. It is the Jerusalem authorities that are banning this - not the most noted authority for supporting either Gay or Muslim concerns - ostensibly on the grounds that it will 'cause violence'.

Anyone any thoughts ?

I've never understood these gay pride marches. If you're gay then so be it, why does anyone else care? Why do you find it necessary to shove it in everyone else's faces? As for the bigot remark, are you not a bigot for being intolerant of other's views that homosexuality is wrong?
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post #3 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Protostar
I've never understood these gay pride marches. If you're gay then so be it, why does anyone else care? Why do you find it necessary to shove it in everyone else's faces? As for the bigot remark, are you not a bigot for being intolerant of other's views that homosexuality is wrong?

According to WordNet, the definition of the word bigot is as follows:

A prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own

I would understand this as referring to someone who objects to any opinions that differ from his own on principle rather than someone who objected to an opinion that happened to differ.

In any case, if it is the latter, we are all bigots as there is no-one who ever lived who had not a single objection to even one solitary contradictory opinion. I would cite characters such as Jesus, Buddha and Mother Theresa here - all of whom had some objections to something.

But I won't. I'm far more interested in the Freudian implications of your choice of expression contained in the phrase 'shoving it in your face'.

Is Gay related expression (as opposed to being hidden away) perhaps something you find 'hard to swallow' ?
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post #4 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
According to WordNet, the definition of the word bigot is as follows:

A prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own

I would understand this as referring to someone who objects to any opinions that differ from his own on principle rather than someone who objected to an opinion that happened to differ.

In any case, if it is the latter, we are all bigots as there is no-one who ever lived who had not a single objection to even one solitary contradictory opinion. I would cite characters such as Jesus, Buddha and Mother Theresa here - all of whom had some objections to something.

But I won't. I'm far more interested in the Freudian implications of your choice of expression contained in the phrase 'shoving it in your face'.

Is Gay related expression (as opposed to being hidden away) perhaps something you find 'hard to swallow' ?

Expression is fine. If your gay fine. If your proud of being gay, fine. But I don't understand the need to have an entire parade to celebrate your attraction to the same sex. It just makes no sense and is a waste of money.
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post #5 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
I'm far more interested in the Freudian implications of your choice of expression contained in the phrase 'shoving it in your face'.

What are you, 12? Grow up.
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post #6 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by Protostar
I don't understand the need to have an entire parade to celebrate your attraction to the same sex.

I agree. I guess we should have straight pride parades. Or how about baseball cap pride parades. "I love wearing baseball caps! Whoohoo!"

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post #7 of 290
Hey, I thought of a chant at our straight pride parade:

"We're great! We're straight! Let's get pregnant!"

For the baseball cap pride parade:

"My hat...is phat....I'll wear it!"
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post #8 of 290
I honestly don't understand parades at all...

What the hell is the point of the Christmas parade?

We know you're Christian, we don't need to be reminded of it every year, multiple times a year....
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post #9 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
I agree. I guess we should have straight pride parades. Or how about baseball cap pride parades. "I love wearing baseball caps! Whoohoo!"


Isnt that the truth, how about a straight pride parade! Look at me im with someone of the opposite sex! Its like look at me im disfunctional as heck and want everyone to know so perhaps there will be more so i dont feel so bad about my screwed up life style.
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post #10 of 290
Thread Starter 
.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #11 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
I agree. I guess we should have straight pride parades. Or how about baseball cap pride parades. "I love wearing baseball caps! Whoohoo!"


Maybe because there is discrimination against gays and not against straights or baseball cap wearers?
post #12 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Hey, I thought of a chant at our straight pride parade:

"We're great! We're straight! Let's get pregnant!"

For the baseball cap pride parade:

"My hat...is phat....I'll wear it!"

Great - if that's how you define yourself, go for it.

Start a parade.

I'll start posting support if any fascists try to close it down.

Meanwhile, maybe we could address the issue ?
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post #13 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Maybe because there is discrimination against gays and not against straights or baseball cap wearers?

There is a difference b/t a gay rights march and a gay pride parade. Gay pride parades, IMO, promote homosexuality which why I feel there is such deep opposition to them. This parade isn't about rights, it's about showing off their "gayness."
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post #14 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Maybe because there is discrimination against gays and not against straights or baseball cap wearers?

Try going to the symphony wearing a baseball cap.

Try going to many restaurants and bars wearing a baseball cap.

We baseball cap wearers are discriminated against every day, and we're not doing anything wrong. We're just being who we are, and some people are intolerant of that. It's not right.
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post #15 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Try going to the symphony wearing a baseball cap.

Try going to many restaurants and bars wearing a baseball cap.

We baseball cap wearers are discriminated against every day, and we're not doing anything wrong. We're just being who we are, and some people are intolerant of that. It's not right.

Like I said - start a parade.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #16 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Protostar
This parade isn't about rights, it's about showing off their "gayness."

So what ?
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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post #17 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
So what ?

Some might find that offensive. Plus, most gays don't need to showcase their "gayness", it is easily recognizable.
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post #18 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Protostar
Some might find that offensive. Plus, most gays don't need to showcase their "gayness", it is easily recognizable.

Then what about your attitude that Gays might find offensive ?

Why do you assume you are 'better' ?
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post #19 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Try going to the symphony wearing a baseball cap.

Try going to many restaurants and bars wearing a baseball cap.

We baseball cap wearers are discriminated against every day, and we're not doing anything wrong. We're just being who we are, and some people are intolerant of that. It's not right.

Yeah that's really cute. Meanwhile, gay kids are kicked out of their homes, just about every leading politician and religious figure says that who they are is wrong and immoral, and they are beaten up and mocked daily by their peers in schools. But why are they complaining, it's really no different than wearing a cap.
post #20 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Then what about your attitude that Gays might find offensive ?

Why do you assume you are 'better' ?

My attitude won't spark riots around the city, such as might happen over there. I think it must be a pretty offensive and controversal issue for three leaders from all three major religions to agree on not letting the parade happen. Like I said, I don't understand why they need a parade to celebrate theri pride in being homosexuals.
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post #21 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Protostar
My attitude won't spark riots around the city, such as might happen over there. I think it must be a pretty offensive and controversal issue for three leaders from all three major religions to agree on not letting the parade happen. Like I said, I don't understand why they need a parade to celebrate theri pride in being homosexuals.

It won't spark riots around the city because the society you live in has advanced past that stage.

It advanced because of the work of Gay activists.

Are you advocating a return to more primitive times ? Sure sounds like it.
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post #22 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
But why are they complaining, it's really no different than wearing a cap.

My point is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON on this planet is discriminated against in one way or another.

You have a funny name.
You're too fat.
You're too ugly.
You're the "wrong" skin color.
You're gay.
You're male.
You're female.
You're too young.
You're too old.
You're too religious.
You're not religious enough.
You're too liberal.
You're too conservative.
You don't make enough money.
You don't wear the "right" clothes.
You're not cool enough.

Gays are discriminated against? Cry me a friekin' river, Sally.
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post #23 of 290
Yes, the less humane parts of humanity, which the ideology contained in several of your posts arguably represents, discriminate more than others. I mean comparing sexual orientation discrimination to wearing a baseball cap is more than a bit offensive and for obvious reasons. The fact that negative discrimination exists in so many objectionable forms (race, gender, age, class, etc) should heighten your sensibility to any individual instance-- not muddle it. Yet that's the conservative response here.

"But cultural hegemony is so tough!"

post #24 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Yeah that's really cute. Meanwhile, gay kids are kicked out of their homes, just about every leading politician and religious figure says that who they are is wrong and immoral, and they are beaten up and mocked daily by their peers in schools. But why are they complaining, it's really no different than wearing a cap.

Boohoo. Gay kids are being kicked out of their homes as a result of a lifestyle choice, so what. If I came home and told my father I was a homosexual, I'd be kicked out too. And I don't blame him because if it was me I'd do the same thing. A parent reserves the right to kick their kid to the curb if they don't agree with what they are doing. As for every leading politician and religious figure thinking it's wrong, most people do. I don't understand what's right about being attracted to someone of the same sex. Kids are beaten up and mocked for other things as well so don't make it seem like it's only the homosexuals who suffer.
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post #25 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Yes, the less humane parts of humanity, which the ideology contained in several of your posts arguably represents, discriminate more than others. I mean comparing sexual orientation discrimination to wearing a baseball cap is more than a bit offensive and for obvious reasons. The fact that negative discrimination exists in so many objectionable forms (race, gender, age, class, etc) should heighten your sensibility to any individual instance-- not muddle it. Yet that's the conservative response here.

"But cultural hegemony is so tough!"


I love how you look down on other people just because their views differ from yours. "less humane parts of humanity" listen at that liberal elitist atttitude in action.
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post #26 of 290
Perhaps, but your above post about kicking homosexuals out on the street will not win any humanitarian awards.
post #27 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
My point is that EVERY SINGLE PERSON on this planet is discriminated against in one way or another.

I'm curious: Do you really believe that there are no types of prejudice or discrimination that are systematic and severe enough that they are more of a problem than clothes or some of the others on your list? What about discrimination against blacks pre-civil rights era? Would you have said "cry me a river" to MLK Jr.?
post #28 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
Which seems rather a strange thing for a Muslim cleric to say as neither Sodom or Gomorrah are mentioned in the Qur'an and represent a tradition that is purely Judeo-Christian and completely unknown in Islamic tradition.

It was my understanding that there's a fair amount of overlap between the Old Testament and some of the teachings of Islam. I've been trying to Google something related to that idea, but there's a lot of crap to wade through. The closest I've come to finding something to support this overlap was a list of the Arab versions of names of prophets from the Old Testament. At any rate, it wouldn't be surprising to me if the lovely story of Sodom or Gomorrah is part of Islam as well.

Anyone here with some expertise on this topic?
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post #29 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by Protostar
I love how you look down on other people just because their views differ from yours. "less humane parts of humanity" listen at that liberal elitist atttitude in action.

Wouldn't it be really nice if everyone was really nice to each other?

No, really. Wouldn't it be great if bad stuff like racism and sexism was frowned upon, and harmless stuff like homosexuality was tolerated, and good stuff like volunteering in sub-Saharan Africa and teaching was celebrated?

Wouldn't that be great?

Don't mean to look down on you or anything, but wouldn't that rock?

post #30 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
Anyone here with some expertise on this topic?

I believe segovius has about as much expertise as anyone here. I think he had mentioned that he studied Islam in an academic setting pretty intensively.
post #31 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by shetline
It was my understanding that there's a fair amount of overlap between the Old Testament and some of the teachings of Islam. I've been trying to Google something related to that idea, but there's a lot of crap to wade through. The closest I've come to finding something to support this overlap was a list of the Arab versions of names of prophets from the Old Testament. At any rate, it wouldn't be surprising to me if the lovely story of Sodom or Gomorrah is part of Islam as well.

Anyone here with some expertise on this topic?

The Gods of Christianity, Judaism and Islam are all the same God, the God of Abraham. If I am not mistaken, all three religions recognize the old testament as being valid.
post #32 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by CosmoNut
Try going to the symphony wearing a baseball cap.

Try going to many restaurants and bars wearing a baseball cap.

We baseball cap wearers are discriminated against every day, and we're not doing anything wrong. We're just being who we are, and some people are intolerant of that. It's not right.

I agree, i was in my bank the other day wearing a baseball hat and sunglasses and they pointed to a sign. Teller said its for my safety paper I think we should have baseball cap rights! if non Baseball cap wearers can go in why cant I edit we do need a parade Next
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post #33 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by MACchine
YOU ARE A NAZI !!!

YOU ARE BANNED !!!
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post #34 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius




Which seems rather a strange thing for a Muslim cleric to say as neither Sodom or Gomorrah are mentioned in the Qur'an and represent a tradition that is purely Judeo-Christian and completely unknown in Islamic tradition.

Really? I thought the quran contained a story about Lot (Lut) and Lot's people and their homosexuality leading to their destruction by God. But, I a could be wrong, I'm no expert. Thought the ridgid Muslim stance against homosexuality originated from somewhere in their sciptures.

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post #35 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
I agree, i was in my bank the other day wearing a baseball hat and sunglasses and they pointed to a sign. Teller said its for my safety paper I think we should have baseball cap rights! if non Baseball cap wearers can go in why cant I edit we do need a parade Next


Ha ha ha ha !! It's just like those goofy negroes! Always whining about "rights". Always whining about "lynchings" and "pistol whippings" and "fire hoses". Making a big show of their so called "solidarity".

And yet life is unfair! I, myself, have not always gotten what I want! Therefore, it follows that their is no such thing as discrimination, since everyone is a victim!
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post #36 of 290
I consulted my favorite religious website and found this:

Quote:
The Qur'an and Homosexuality:

There are five references in the Qur'an which have been cited as referring to gay and lesbian behavior. Some obviously deal with effeminate men and "masculine women." The two main references to homosexual behavior are:

"We also sent Lut : He said to his people : "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women: ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds." Qur'an 7:80-81

"What! Of all creatures do ye come unto the males, and leave the wives your Lord created for you? Nay, but ye are forward folk." Qur'an 26:165
Both references relate to gay sexual activities; lesbian practices are not mentioned in the Qur'an.

Lut is referred to as "Lot" in the Hebrew Scriptures. This passage is an apparent reference to the activities at Sodom and Gamorah. It seems to imply that there was no homosexual behavior before it first appeared in Sodom. This is a uniquely Islamic concept; it does not appear in Jewish or Christian beliefs. The passage also links the sin of Sodom (the reason for its destruction) to homosexuality. That linkage is contradicted by other verses in the Hebrew Scriptures.



The Hadith and homosexuality:

The Hadith are collections of sayings attributed to Muhammad. Many Hadiths (ahadith) discuss liwat (sexual intercourse between males). Two examples are:

"When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes."
"Kill the one that is doing it and also kill the one that it is being done to." (in reference to the active and passive partners in gay sexual intercourse)

There is at least one mention of lesbian behavior mentioned in the Hadith:

"Sihaq (lesbian sexual activity) of women is zina (illegitimate sexual intercourse) among them."

Traditionalist orthodox Muslims generally claim that the Hadith literature contains the authentic sayings of Muhammad. Many liberal Muslims doubt the authenticity of at least some of them. The latter might point out that during the times of the first Caliphs, Muslims did not know what to do with individuals guilty of "liwat/lutiyya". No sahabi (companion) of Muhammad could quote a saying or decision of Muhammad relating to this question.

The Lot passage in the Quran is linked even more directly to homosexuality than it is in the Judeo-Christian scriptures, where it is unclear why S & G got the treatment.

My favorite: "When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes." Is that anything like "God kills a kitten?"
post #37 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by BRussell
Do you really believe that there are no types of prejudice or discrimination that are systematic and severe enough that they are more of a problem than clothes or some of the others on your list? What about discrimination against blacks pre-civil rights era? Would you have said "cry me a river" to MLK Jr.?

Last time I checked, a gay man could use the same restroom as me. Last time I checked, a gay woman could go to the same school as me. I can see the connection you're trying to make, but it's just not there.
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post #38 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by Aurora
I agree, i was in my bank the other day wearing a baseball hat and sunglasses and they pointed to a sign. Teller said its for my safety paper I think we should have baseball cap rights! if non Baseball cap wearers can go in why cant I edit we do need a parade Next

I don't wear baseball caps but I were top hats and don't understand why places, particularly schools, are so adament about you not wearing them about the building.
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post #39 of 290
Quote:
Originally posted by segovius
According to WordNet, the definition of the word bigot is as follows:

A prejudiced person who is intolerant of any opinions differing from his own

I would understand this as referring to someone who objects to any opinions that differ from his own on principle rather than someone who objected to an opinion that happened to differ.

In any case, if it is the latter, we are all bigots as there is no-one who ever lived who had not a single objection to even one solitary contradictory opinion. I would cite characters such as Jesus, Buddha and Mother Theresa here - all of whom had some objections to something.

You're glossing over the word "prejudiced" for whatever reason.

Since, in my opinion, Jesus never existed, and considering Mother Theresa is just an extension of that myth's world view, I won't comment further on them.

But as for the Buddha, I'd offer he is the antithesis of "pre-judging". He "retreated" to observing and careful inspection - he did not "stand firm" and presume things to be truly as they (arbitrarily) initially seemed to him, having found that the various distractions can pull our beliefs to and fro to nearly any false, incomplete, dishonest, stubborn and arbitrary conclusion.

"Opinion" is equally useless, as they are only shades of the same Ignorance.

"Own/self" wouldn't pertain to the Buddha (or any of us when made aware), ultimately.

"Intolerant" would be irrelevant if there is no self or other.

The Buddha first tried to "tell" his found truths but the person laughed and disbelieved, which is why he instead developed a path identical to the one he followed, so as to let others see for themselves as he did - if they are so inclined.

Disbelievers (or really, those-that-believe-too-much as opposed to knowing), to the Buddha, are just people that are addicted to the status quo and there is no particular desire to "save" them nor rip apart their beliefs for the sake of making them feel bad.

(That's something I'm actively working on, being so modernized, it's hard not to overbearingly spew opinion, no matter how calm or balanced I might try to be.)

Anyway, I daresay the Buddha had no "objection" to anything in particular. His is an open and welcoming philosophy but by no means mandatory. It's a simple: patient:"Doc, it hurts when I do this"; doctor:"Don't do that." advisory kind of thing - not dictatorial.

One can teach "best practices" without objecting to your doing it your (perhaps unhealthy and foolish) way.

I think it's mostly when one's stubborn illogic or harmful actions interferes with others that it becomes objectionable.
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post #40 of 290
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally posted by Tulkas
Really? I thought the quran contained a story about Lot (Lut) and Lot's people and their homosexuality leading to their destruction by God. But, I a could be wrong, I'm no expert. Thought the ridgid Muslim stance against homosexuality originated from somewhere in their sciptures.

It doesn't mention Sodom though does it ?

Personally I do not dispute that there are anti-gay bigots in the Islamic fold, nor that they may find Scriptural passages to justify their prejudice.

They, as with all bigots, should be opposed.
What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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What is Faith? When your good deed pleases you and your evil deed grieves you, you are a believer. What is Sin? When a thing disturbs the peace of your heart, give it up - Prophet Muhammad
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