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I feel offended by holiday greetings... - Page 3

post #81 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Ah come on. Moe is pulling your collective leg. Please grant him the honour of having a brain for Christ sake.

Maybe there is Moe to Moe that's good.
Maybe less of Moe is even better.
BUT there are Moe Moes than you seem to think.
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post #82 of 206
Lets try turning this around. Most of us doesn´t think there is a war on Christmas, just because someone is using "Happy Holidays" instead.

Is anyone actually offended by Merry Christmas? Do anyone really feel that anyone has a case there?

I thnk anyone should be free to offer any form of greeting as long as it is not directed against anyone ("happy jew killing day" for instance). I really don´t see the point in not allowing any mentioning of Christmas in schools as one example. Of course there should not be any problem in celebrating the Ramadan or Chanukah or anything else.
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post #83 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Is anyone actually offended by Merry Christmas?

I don't think it is offensive. But many years before PC, we had manners. I think it is rude.

Merry Christmas is a kind of blessing. It is more than a greeting. I appreciate it when my Muslim friends say, "Merry Christmas" to me, because they are hoping I will find blessing in my holyday.

Similarly, I feel free to say Eid Mubarak to them, because I want their holyday to be blessed as well.

However, me saying MC to them is a little too much like thinking they should find meaning in my day, or vice versa.

When a group of Protestants, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, Hindi, (no offense to others, including non-believers) are present (or may be present) it is just more polite to offer a greeting in which they will all find meaning. (Assuming most of them get off for this national celebration regardless of religion.)

Schools should be required to celebrate Christmas. As well as Chanuka, Ramadan, and Kwanza. Social studies would be all the richer if we planned units around these days as well as a number of other secular and religious (holi and holy) days.
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post #84 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Lets try turning this around. Most of us doesn´t think there is a war on Christmas, just because someone is using "Happy Holidays" instead.

Is anyone actually offended by Merry Christmas? Do anyone really feel that anyone has a case there?

I thnk anyone should be free to offer any form of greeting as long as it is not directed against anyone ("happy jew killing day" for instance). I really don´t see the point in not allowing any mentioning of Christmas in schools as one example. Of course there should not be any problem in celebrating the Ramadan or Chanukah or anything else.


Brilliant comments Anders. Religion cannot be mandated in the US. That is clear. We are not, however, banned from openly expressing Religious celebration. I think that Christmas should be mentioned and celebrated in the schools. I also think that Jewish, Islamic and other major celebrations should be noted if children of those faiths are present. Regardless of our faith or lack there of, we will spend the rest of our lives interfacing with folks from diverse backgrounds. The more we understand one anothers cultures, which includes our faiths, the better off we will all be.

Where do you draw the line? I don't know and that is why this will never work, unfortunately.
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post #85 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Lets try turning this around. Most of us doesn´t think there is a war on Christmas, just because someone is using "Happy Holidays" instead.

Is anyone actually offended by Merry Christmas? Do anyone really feel that anyone has a case there?

I thnk anyone should be free to offer any form of greeting as long as it is not directed against anyone ("happy jew killing day" for instance). I really don´t see the point in not allowing any mentioning of Christmas in schools as one example. Of course there should not be any problem in celebrating the Ramadan or Chanukah or anything else.

I am extremely liberal and often contribute to Democrat campaigns and do my best to fight the good fight. Therefore, I am probably the poster child for O'Reilly's object of derission.

I am NOT offended by "Merry Christmas". I use the term often as I CELEBRATE Christmas. I am NOT offended by "Happy Chanukah" as I celebrate everyone's beliefs and religions.

And being on the front lines of liberalism, I would suspect that I would be somewhat aware of this super-secret agenda to drive religion out of America.
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post #86 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Northgate
II am NOT offended by "Merry Christmas". I use the term often as I CELEBRATE Christmas. I am NOT offended by "Happy Chanukah" as I celebrate everyone's beliefs and religions.

Couldn't agree with you more. I am also not offended when people call me by my first name. But, when I am around people I don't know, and they are of age that might be offended, I refer to them by title.

Being in the "majority" may place a little extra burden on us. It is easy for us to say we are not offended, whey should they be.

I still think good manners keeps me from imposing my religious greeting on someone with whom I do not have a relationship.

And I think it is especially true when the other party is in the minority here and either may have recently escaped from religious persecution or may be already experiencing it in their new home.
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post #87 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Mike0919
However, me saying MC to them is a little too much like thinking they should find meaning in my day, or vice versa.

Actually I would feel the opposite. They would actually say "Hey. I hope my God (which I actually believe in) will bless you". Thats much better than saying. "I hope your god, which I don´t believe exists, will bless you". The latter is kinda empty, isn´t it?
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post #88 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Actually I would feel the opposite. They would actually say "Hey. I hope my God (which I actually believe in) will bless you". Thats much better than saying. "I hope your god, which I don´t believe exists, will bless you". The latter is kinda empty, isn´t it?

Maybe for some people. When I wish my Muslim friends a warm, happy, and festive end to Ramadan with Eid Mubarak, it is not empty at all. When they wish me to have a Merry Christmas, it is respectful of my traditions and beliefs.

If someone--whose religion is farther from mine than Judaism or Islam--does not believe that there is a God, as I do. My telling them that I hope my God will bless them is the direction where I feel like there is a slap in the face.

That may be a prayer I should keep to myself.

EM and MC are not the same as I hope my God will bless you. They simply wish you the blessing of enjoying your own (as opposed to my) tradition in your own way.

BTW: Whatever is the tradition you celebrate this time of year, I hope it is warm, special, and meaningful to you. That's not empty.
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post #89 of 206
I think its getting streched quite a bit now. So now god isn´t involved at all but only part of an tradition. Then what is there to offend? Then its not anything more than someone being a vegan and me telling her about the best burger I ever had?

Don´t get me wrong. I am not asking people to celebrate Christmas or make a pledge that involve any godly stuff (or any flag for that matter). But I see no wrong in telling the story of Jesus at Christmas and other myths at other holidays in the school.

Yes I of course see a lot of problems with respect of other cultures and tolerance around me. But I simply don´t see this as any solution. And there might be local problems with teachers not accepting the existence of different interpretations of our existence. But that doesn´t call for a total ignorance for the fact that some DO celebrate Christmas.
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post #90 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Brilliant comments Anders. Religion cannot be mandated in the US. That is clear. We are not, however, banned from openly expressing Religious celebration. I think that Christmas should be mentioned and celebrated in the schools. I also think that Jewish, Islamic and other major celebrations should be noted if children of those faiths are present. Regardless of our faith or lack there of, we will spend the rest of our lives interfacing with folks from diverse backgrounds. The more we understand one anothers cultures, which includes our faiths, the better off we will all be.

Where do you draw the line? I don't know and that is why this will never work, unfortunately.

"Noted".

Noted isn't enough bub, and noted only when children of those faiths are present certainly isn't going along with the ideal that we learn about each other's cultures. The best way of doing this is choosing the two or three most important holidays of the world's major religions, and some of the minor religions as well and talk about them, their cultural significance and their meaning...

This means talking about Christmas and Easter, etc.

This means talking about Yom Kippur and Passover, etc.

This means talking about Ramadan and Isra Mer'Aj, etc.

This does not mean ignoring those silly minorities when they are not around.

This does not mean equivocating Hanukah and Christmas simply because they both occur around the same time or any other holiday.
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post #91 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
I think its getting streched quite a bit now. So now god isn´t involved at all but only part of an tradition. Then what is there to offend? Then its not anything more than someone being a vegan and me telling her about the best burger I ever had? . . .

But that doesn´t call for a total ignorance for the fact that some DO celebrate Christmas.

Agree with both. I think that when we wish someone Merry Christmas in a secular setting, we are usually just wishing them the same as Happy New Year. Think about it. Last time you said MC to a store clerk, were you really addressing his/her soul?

In a religious setting, we each have our own meanings and beliefs about what Christmas stands for.

If the issue is the greeting, yes, it is trivial. We should just be polite. I wouldn't say to a known veg unless we were very close, "I wish you would try this hamburger." I wouldn't say MC to a Jewish or Muslim acquaintance unless we were very close. I still think that part is just good manners.

Educationally, you are right again. Our typical solution in schools is just "leave it out." That robs everyone of their traditions. It does keep politicians from losing votes by taking stand.

We are a country to was built on many cultures. Why not learn from them? Our churches, synagogues, and mosques will have more meaningful celebrations, but school is where we send our kids to learn new things outside of their experiences.

Can't we be inclusive and sensitive at the same time?
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post #92 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
"Noted".
This does not mean ignoring those silly minorities when they are not around.

Thanks.

And doesn't it also mean that if you are in mixed and unfamiliar company, and you are not sure how others feel, then a more generic greeting is wiser, kinder, and more polite than simply one from your own religion?

We can't blame the schools for not teaching our kids what we don't practice in private.
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post #93 of 206
I agree with the manners. There is absolutely nothing wrong in sticking a finger in the ground and respecting other people. What I am arguing against are bans.

Actually it reminds me about something that is going on here. One of our Conservative newspapers asked some cartoonists to each draw a picture of Moammed as they sees him and twelve (I think) did and they were printed in the paper. Pictures of Mohammed is a no-no in Islam and they did it as a provocation (the excuse for doing so was a story about an illustrator who had declined illustrating a educational book about the life of Mohammed).

A lot of arab countries got very upset with this and filed a complaint to our secretary of state, asking him to take affair.

Now while I can´t see what a country that regard free speech as a very valuable thing could do legally, it is okay to actually think about what you do before you do it. Likewise if a muslim or jewish (or secular) student complains about any Christmas celebration it is of course not okay to say "Well tough luck. We are predominant Christians here so get used to it". It should be taken seriously.
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post #94 of 206
Ignoring those silly minorities when they are not around

Why do you people put crap like this in my mouth? I am so tired of you people telling me what I really meant.

When I posted I was not thinking about formal instruction as much as I was thinking about celebrations (i.e. the class Christmas, Hanukkah party etc). This makes a lot more sense to me if people of the faith being celebrated are present so that kids of different backgrounds can celebrate together. Im not sure how much awareness will come from a bunch of Baptist kids having a Ramadan party (atleast the catering would not cost much). I live in a very diverse place. I interact with Muslims, Buddhists, Jews and even a Bahai everyday. My plan would work great here. Maybe it would not in the more segregated environments some of yall live in.

Is is funny to listen to the left arguing FOR Religion to be taught in the schools. I need to take a break. Off to the Hill Country.
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post #95 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
. . . if a muslim or jewish (or secular) student complains about any Christmas celebration it is of course not okay to say "Well tough luck. We are predominant Christians here so get used to it". It should be taken seriously.

How did we end up agreeing? At least I agree with what you just said.

A school could have a program of demonstrating several religious ceremonies and their meanings. If students from that culture are not present, someone could be brought in.

A child could be taught, "They were courteous to you when your celebration was featured. Now, you should be courteous to them." or "None of us have to believe in a cultural custom to learn about it."

In the absence of common-sense manners and attempts at reconciliation, we escalate this to an issue of God and bans and denial of religious freedom.

Sometimes being nice and teaching others to be nice really is what is called for.

A Liberal saying we don't need government bans to handle this. Afraid we might need some guidelines, though.
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post #96 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
Ignoring those silly minorities when they are not around

Why do you people put crap like this in my mouth? I am so tired of you people telling me what I really meant.

When I posted I was not thinking about formal instruction as much as I was thinking about celebrations (i.e. the class Christmas, Hanukkah party etc). This makes a lot more sense to me if people of the faith being celebrated are present so that kids of different backgrounds can celebrate together. Im not sure how much awareness will come from a bunch of Baptist kids having a Ramadan party (atleast the catering would not cost much). I live in a very diverse place. I interact with Muslims, Buddhists, Jews and even a Bahai everyday. My plan would work great here. Maybe it would not in the more segregated environments some of yall live in.

Is is funny to listen to the left arguing FOR Religion to be taught in the schools. I need to take a break. Off to the Hill Country.

Teaching about religion is not practicing religion (an end of the semester party is much more palatable in any event). There are scant few liberals who would say that religion needs to be banned in its entirety... I went to a public high school where the faiths were as mixed as you have indicated, and we actually had a course in which the discussion about religion was promoted. It was the idiots in the class who scoffed at having to learn about hinduism, and the liberals would dominate the discourse... etc etc etc.
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post #97 of 206
Funny. You open a hornests nest and then complain everyone's running around with bug spray.
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post #98 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders
Lets try turning this around. Most of us doesn´t think there is a war on Christmas, just because someone is using "Happy Holidays" instead.

Is anyone actually offended by Merry Christmas? Do anyone really feel that anyone has a case there?

I thnk anyone should be free to offer any form of greeting as long as it is not directed against anyone ("happy jew killing day" for instance). I really don´t see the point in not allowing any mentioning of Christmas in schools as one example. Of course there should not be any problem in celebrating the Ramadan or Chanukah or anything else.

Look around. There were a hundred or so courtcases in this country over the celebration of christmas, or displaying of the symbals therof, in the US in the past 5 or so years. Do the math. For a one-day, once a year holiday. That seems a bit overboard.

Do you care to venture the political leanings of those opposed to displaying or celebrating christmas. It's not the right-wing whackos that we love to spar with. It is our fellow liberals and democrats.

The problem is not enough of us say "this is wrong", we just go right along with it because they are liberal or democrats. We gladly attack the right for attacking liberals who, it just so happens, are pursuing a wrong or misguided course. It's our own fault that the right attacks us for being anti-religioun or anti-moral or anti-christmas. We have to stick together ya know.

We like to spout the "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" all day but forget the counterbalancing part of " or prohibiting the FREE EXOCICSE therof" Such is the political climate that we have fashioned fro ourselves.
post #99 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by me.liley
Look around. There were a hundred or so courtcases in this country over the celebration of christmas, or displaying of the symbals therof, in the US in the past 5 or so years. Do the math. For a one-day, once a year holiday. That seems a bit overboard.

Do you care to venture the political leanings of those opposed to displaying or celebrating christmas. It's not the right-wing whackos that we love to spar with. It is our fellow liberals and democrats.

The problem is not enough of us say "this is wrong", we just go right along with it because they are liberal or democrats. We gladly attack the right for attacking liberals who, it just so happens, are pursuing a wrong or misguided course. It's our own fault that the right attacks us for being anti-religioun or anti-moral or anti-christmas. We have to stick together ya know.

We like to spout the "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion" all day but forget the counterbalancing part of " or prohibiting the FREE EXOCICSE therof" Such is the political climate that we have fashioned fro ourselves.

I suppose a burning cross is a religious symbol as well...

And no, I am not comparing the KKK burning cross with a nativity scene -- I am making a point that there are guidelines that are clear as day.

What one 'liberal' has to realize is that the government shouldn't put nativity scenes on public land. The free exercise of religion does not require nativity scenes to be on the court house yard. This is not an attack on religion. This is not an attack on christmas. This is a reasonable and level headed reading of the First Amendment, which you would have us believe allows the federal government to display religious iconography. It does not. It explicitly tells the government not to. That is why there are tons of lawsuits because some religious people don't think a simple nativity scene on public land is offensive. It is to every single person who happens to not be christian, and probably to some christians as well.
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post #100 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by me.liley
I could care less what that blowhard says. Congress voted on this very issue and many polls show an overwhelming sentiment that christmas and other religious beleifs are being attacked. This obviously means nothing to you. I'm pretty liberal myself, but when my party attacks something as innocent as Christmas, simply to make conservitives who are fellow belivers by the way look radical to make themselves look moderate something is seriously amiss in my so called big tent party.

Okay, bucko, put up or shut up: How has the Democratic Party "attacked" Christmas? How? Specific, pointed examples - please.

I WORK for the Democraitc Party. In TEXAS. The only war regarding Christmas around here is trying to find enough time to buy presents for people and decorate our homes.

Most Democrats ARE Christians. Most Democrats who aren't Christian are Jewish. Just like the rest of the population.
post #101 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Moe_in_Texas
[B]Folks of faith (especially Christians) are continuously fighting off anti-religion attacks. The holiday party, happy holidays and the banned Nativity scene are all examples of this.

How is it an attack on religion to say "happy holidays" to someone? The term "holiday" IS religious! And having a "holiday party" is just good planning -- you can celebrate Christmas, Hannukah, Kwanzaa and New Years all at once. Efficient.

Private Nativity scenes on private property are perfectly legal, and no one is trying to do away with them. Private Nativity scenes on PUBLIC property are... ALSO PERFECTLY LEGAL, so long as use of said property is equally available to non-Christian groups and organizations. The only thing that's not legal is a publicly-funded religious Nativity scene, for the simple reason that it is illegal for the government to expend money in the support of any particular religion. But that's not anti-Christian, as it applies to all religious beliefs equally, and atheism. A government-funded sign saying "there is no God" would be JUST as illegal as that government-funded Nativity.

So, once again, no attack on religion, no attack on Christmas. Just right-wing goofball hysteria.
post #102 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I suppose a burning cross is a religious symbol as well...

A total non-sequitor, but growing up United Methodist, our "cross with flame" logo always bothered me just a bit, because it sorta looked like a burning cross!

Quote:
What one 'liberal' has to realize is that the government shouldn't put nativity scenes on public land.

However, it's perfectly reasonable for private citizens and groups to have access to government land to put up a nativity, so long as such access is open to any other groups, including groups that want to put up a sign that says "There is no God."
post #103 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Fireball1244
However, it's perfectly reasonable for private citizens and groups to have access to government land to put up a nativity, so long as such access is open to any other groups, including groups that want to put up a sign that says "There is no God."

While I agree in principle, I am not sure that such actions wouldn't be construed as governmental endorsement of some religions (and hence be a violation of the first amendment).
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post #104 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
While I agree in principle, I am not sure that such actions wouldn't be construed as governmental endorsement of some religions (and hence be a violation of the first amendment).

The Court has not held that, and, in fact, even the ACLU has taken cases demanding access to government land for religious displays when such land was made accessible for non-religious displays.
post #105 of 206
Lets expand on this.



"Kids don´t really look like that and tacos can´t talk"
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post #106 of 206
Oh oh. Even better.



Page 2:

"Biology is not telling the truth. God created every species"
"No Jahve did!"
"Infidels. There is only one god. He created the world and his name is Allah"
"There is no "natural selection" or gods. All development is social"
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post #107 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Anders




I went to college where he is (and was) a professor. Goddamn small f-ing world.
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post #108 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by hardeeharhar
I went to college where he is (and was) a professor. Goddamn small f-ing world.

http://images.google.com/images?svnu...01&btnG=Search

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post #109 of 206
I thought this article was interesting in light of this thread:

http://www.sptimes.com/2005/12/23/Wo...pirit_of.shtml

The thing I find most interesting about this time of year is that (at least this year) there are only really two religious holidays at the end of December...Christmas and Hanukkah. Kwanza isn't really a religious holiday at all and Ramadan is long over (ending in early November this year I believe).

While I have never really been offended or concerned with the expression "Happy Holidays" (as it seems to cover an expression of "Merry Christmas", "Happy New Year" and "Happy Hanukkah")...I do find it amusing the increasing apparent need to find any and every way to avoid saying the "C-word"..."Winter Holiday"? Huh? We're celebrating winter? Not me! I want the summer back! "Snow Festival"? Seriously? We're celebrating the presence of moisture and the absence of heat?

Oh well. Whatever. All pretty amusing how we must trip over ourselves to avoid offending some folks...most of which probably wouldn't really be offended at all.

This is all a distraction. Smoke. Mirrors. Confusion. Be thoughtful to whom you are speaking ("Happy Hanukkah" to the Jewish person..."Merry Christmas" to the Christian person...whatever..."Have a nice day" to everyone else.)

I mean if someone said something like "Happy Hanukkah" to me, I would probably politely respond that I am a Christian and do not celebrate Hanukkah, but thanks for the thought (and "Happy Hanukkah" to them). If someone like Mike here greeted me with a "festive end to Ramadan with Eid Mubarak" I would politely respond that I am a Christian and do not participate in Ramadan (and that if I did, I'd already be done with it more than a month and a half ago.)

Everyone really has their undies in a bunch.
post #110 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Everyone really has their undies in a bunch.

I don't really think it's everyone, but you're right. There are panties in a serious bunch. Someone in the SLC Tribune the other day said something I thought was really on spot: this war on Christmas stuff isn't about Christians versus secular folks. It's about Christian zealots versus Christian moderates.
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post #111 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
I don't really think it's everyone, but you're right. There are panties in a series bunch. Someone in the SLC Tribune the other day said something I thought was really on spot: this war on Christmas stuff isn't about Christians versus secular folks. It's about Christian zealots versus Christian moderates.

Well, let's be honest here, it isn't just about Christians (zealots or otherwise)...it is also those that get "offended" by the expression of a Christmas (or other) greeting too.

All in all lots of folk need thicker skin...and to realize there is no God-given (nor constitutionally given) right to not be offended by something.
post #112 of 206
I didn't know you could construct straw-men out of snow. Creative.
post #113 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
I didn't know you could construct straw-men out of snow. Creative.

And who, pray-tell, is doing that?
post #114 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Well, let's be honest here, it isn't just about Christians (zealots or otherwise)...it is also those that get "offended" by the expression of a Christmas (or other) greeting too.

Could you please provide links to this apparent legion of people who are offended "by the expression of a Christmas greeting"?

Quote:
All in all lots of folk need thicker skin...and to realize there is no God-given (nor constitutionally given) right to not be offended by something.

Indeed. Start with Bill O'Reilly.
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post #115 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
And who, pray-tell, is doing that?

Who claims a constitutional right "not to be offended?"
post #116 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by ShawnJ
Who claims a constitutional right "not to be offended?"

Oh relax. Sheesh. No one I know claims it per se...but there seem to be a lot o' folks acting as if there is one.
post #117 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Oh relax. Sheesh. No one I know claims it per se...but there seem to be a lot o' folks acting as if there is one.

Who? Who are these "lot 'o folks" who claim to be offended by a Christmas greeting?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
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post #118 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
Who? Who are these "lot 'o folks" who claim to be offended by a Christmas greeting?

You're right. They don't exist.

post #119 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
You're right. They don't exist.


So you've got nothing. You contend that "everyone's" panties are in a bunch. I only see Christian zealots with their panties in a bunch about some "war on Christmas." What's the objective other than to make people who are otherwise moderates bend to the will of zealots?
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
Gangs are not seen as legitimate, because they don't have control over public schools.
Reply
post #120 of 206
Quote:
Originally posted by midwinter
So you've got nothing. You contend that "everyone's" panties are in a bunch. I only see Christian zealots with their panties in a bunch about some "war on Christmas."

Right and schools left and right are eliminating "Christmas" programs in favor of "winter celebrations"...just well...just because. Not because they are worried of offending anyone (or getting sued by the ACLU)...just because. Retailers are dumping "Merry Christmas" just because...not because they are worried of offending anyone. It is all just a figment of my imagination. A fantasy. A ghost of Christmas nonsense.

Just because there are not links to organized battalions of "the offended" doesn't mean they don't exist. Or maybe they don't. Maybe it is an extremely small minority. A tail of hurt feelings wagging the dog of our overall culture. I could believe this. But apparently someone is getting offended enough by it to raise stink about it or at least scare schools and retailers and even employers into avoiding the "C" word for fear of offending...well...no one I guess.
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