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Apple's Mac Pro to sport modified Power Mac enclosure - Page 7

post #241 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

I don't know what is going on for you, I did it again and still didn't go much beyond $3200.

The SATA/SAS card is stock. Look at the dirve configuration and choices. If you can figure out how to get rid of it I can select it out.

I dunno how you can add a $1389 ($520 + $869) worth of options to a $2358 computer and get anywhere close to $3200.

Vinea
post #242 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe_the_dragon

where is the 1500 or less head less desk top?
people are not go to pay 2100 just to get good video with a AIO.
Also $300 to go form 1gig to 2gig what a rip.

Hopefully coming, but with Apple I wouldn't count on it.
post #243 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig

The way I see it, Apple has opened itself up for four possibilities.
1. Apple once again forgets everyone who is not a professional or casual consumer.
2. A Core 2 brother to the Mac Pro. Possibly using the same case.
3. Licensing to PC Makers for Prosumer market.
4. Second PC-like brand.

What exactly do you call the in-between Pro and casual user? I always thought those WERE the only two categories.
post #244 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash

What exactly do you call the in-between Pro and casual user? I always thought those WERE the only two categories.

Gamers.

Vinea
post #245 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig

The way I see it, Apple has opened itself up for four possibilities.
1. Apple once again forgets everyone who is not a professional or casual consumer.
2. A Core 2 brother to the Mac Pro. Possibly using the same case.
3. Licensing to PC Makers for Prosumer market.
4. Second PC-like brand.

5.
opening the door for amd 4x4 to take over it will start under $1000 use cheaper ram and let you use SLI / Crossfire at full x16 in each slot. That mac can use 4 video cards but they not in SLI and likely running at x4 or x8 for the cards that are not in the main video slot.

Even if the mac pro is faster then amd 4x4. It will win on better video and more / cheaper ram.
DDR 2 is lot cheaper then FB-DIMMS
post #246 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

Gamers.

Vinea

Who are only interested in pro gear.
post #247 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

The SATA/SAS card is stock. Look at the dirve configuration and choices. If you can figure out how to get rid of it I can select it out.

I dunno how you can add a $1389 ($520 + $869) worth of options to a $2358 computer and get anywhere close to $3200.

Sorry, I realized that too late. Still, why did you up the warranty? That added $408 worth of support that Apple doesn't offer. The dead stock warranty is better than what Apple offers even if you paid them for the AppleCare.

Edit: OK, I found the difference, the final price I get is exactly Apple's stated Dell list price - $200 instant rebate.
post #248 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by meelash

What exactly do you call the in-between Pro and casual user? I always thought those WERE the only two categories.

That's the problem lies with Apple and Mac users in general. You think everyone is either only using the internet or doing highend photoshop or what not.
post #249 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

Sorry, I realized that too late. Still, why did you up the warranty? That added $408 worth of support that Apple doesn't offer. The dead stock warranty is better than what Apple offers even if you paid them for the AppleCare.

I didn't touch the warranty as far as I know. You can spec a 490 to around $3400 at the cost of a drive bay (depending on if you count the apple keyboard as a multimedia keyboard and if you add the 2nd GigE card).

Which CPUs are you spec'ing?

Vinea

PS Yes, 3 yr essential plan is included and can't be deselected. 3 yr comprehensive is $50 more.
post #250 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

Gamers.

Vinea

Among others. There is a large segment whose wants are not met by an all in one, but have no need for all the features of the Mac pro.
post #251 of 301
Few observations:

- SAS support only in the new XServe. Would have preferred it in the Mac Pro as well but it's OK.

- 4 hard drives but no hardware RAID support. \ Have to depend on Mac OS X to get RAID which is got to be much slower. There must be some 3rd party PCIe cards that work with OS X.

- The new "cable-free, direct-attach installation system" for the hard drives seems like the mechanism used in the G5 XServes. I REALLY HOPE that Apple will provide all the enclosures for the drives so that we will be able to upgrade/add the drives ourselves; $400 for a 500GB drive is a ripoff.
post #252 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat

Who are only interested in pro gear.

Okay...mid-range gamers.

There is a market for $1000-$1500 desktops. Arguably not one that Apple will be able to compete in and still sell iMacs. One has to show that these desktops provide more total profit (margin + volume) from cannibalizing the current iMac sales...because if you put one out iMac sales will tank IMHO.

Vinea
post #253 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig

Among others. There is a large segment whose wants are not met by an all in one, but have no need for all the features of the Mac pro.

This "large" segment of users is a profitable segment and won't cannibalize iMac and Mac Pro sales? Because a $1500 Conroe tower pretty much does that.

Besides, its only $500. I would think that most companies can afford the difference if they must have expandability and most enthusiasts will save up the difference over time and buy a little later.

I agree the market exists. I disagree its all that profitable to go chasing after at the risk of the rest of the product line.

Vinea
post #254 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

I didn't touch the warranty as far as I know. You can spec a 490 to around $3400 at the cost of a drive bay (depending on if you count the apple keyboard as a multimedia keyboard and if you add the 2nd GigE card).

Which CPUs are you spec'ing?

2x 2.66 GHZ dual core, Xeon 5150, the same as shown in the Keynote picture.

Also, the optical drive option you picked is a dual optical drive, including a CD writer plus a DVD writer.

Here is a print of the order page:
http://demaagd.com/gr/DellPrec590.pdf

There is a $408 difference between the Economy plan and the Essential plan that you listed in your original quote:
http://demaagd.com/gr/DellPrec590-2.pdf

I "ordered" through Dell Small Business. If you picked Gov or Large Business, the default service plan might be higher.

Edit: OK, I see the Mac Pro uses 667MHz memory, so add $40 for the 1GB 667MHz memory vs. 1GB 533MHz memory.
post #255 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinea

This "large" segment of users is a profitable segment and won't cannibalize iMac and Mac Pro sales? Because a $1500 Conroe tower pretty much does that.

Besides, its only $500. I would think that most companies can afford the difference if they must have expandability and most enthusiasts will save up the difference over time and buy a little later.

I agree the market exists. I disagree its all that profitable to go chasing after at the risk of the rest of the product line.

Vinea

It outnumbers iMac users about 6 or 7 to one. It would not cannibalizing sales from the Mac Pro and iMac. It would be cannibalizing sales from PC companies like Dell and HP. Nobody seems to get that.
post #256 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

The comparison against the Dell isn't quite right, because Dell's support is 3 years stock (IIRC, on-site) PowerMac's was 1yr and you have to bring it or ship it to them. They Dell is using using an expensive Quadro where the Mac Pro just uses a cheaper consumer card.
I went through the pricing and could only come up with $3200 for the Dell Prec 690 for the stated specs.

Still, the hot-plug hard drives is nifty, and other things make comparison a little difficult.

The warrenty was something I brought up in the last discussion. That's a few hundred in value.
post #257 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by zang

I ceded in another comment that "conductor" was a poor choice of words on my part, when I meant to say something along the lines of thermal retention.

Aluminum will heat up very quickly, but it cools down just as fast. That's why it's used a lot in bakeware rather than cookware -- where most times it's in a situation where there's surrounding or convection heat and it's just used to hold something or form a shape, as opposed to cooking it.

Conductor is the correct term. High conductivity means that it will heat up fast, and cool down fast. Copper is much better, but costs far more. Silver is slightly better than copper.
post #258 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

Somewhere on this board, I worked out a way to get components for a 2 x 2.00 cost about $1700 w/ decent volume discounts. Apple picks a margin between 12.5 percent and 25 percent, and that computer costs between $2000 and $2200. It'd also be the best-selling workstation ever, because Dell's margins are off the charts in the workstation market.

I have to run, but I'll re-post that config tonight.

No way is Apple going to take a margin that low. 25% is the minimum.
post #259 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwswami

Few observations:

- SAS support only in the new XServe. Would have preferred it in the Mac Pro as well but it's OK.

- 4 hard drives but no hardware RAID support. \ Have to depend on Mac OS X to get RAID which is got to be much slower. There must be some 3rd party PCIe cards that work with OS X.

- The new "cable-free, direct-attach installation system" for the hard drives seems like the mechanism used in the G5 XServes. I REALLY HOPE that Apple will provide all the enclosures for the drives so that we will be able to upgrade/add the drives ourselves; $400 for a 500GB drive is a ripoff.

3rd party PCIe may need a efi bios to be able to boot form it and is there any efi pci-e cards out there?
post #260 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwswami

Few observations:

- SAS support only in the new XServe. Would have preferred it in the Mac Pro as well but it's OK.

- 4 hard drives but no hardware RAID support. \ Have to depend on Mac OS X to get RAID which is got to be much slower. There must be some 3rd party PCIe cards that work with OS X.

- The new "cable-free, direct-attach installation system" for the hard drives seems like the mechanism used in the G5 XServes. I REALLY HOPE that Apple will provide all the enclosures for the drives so that we will be able to upgrade/add the drives ourselves; $400 for a 500GB drive is a ripoff.

Software RAID isn't always slower. Hardware RAID often has better fault protection though.
post #261 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenRoethig

It outnumbers iMac users about 6 or 7 to one. It would not cannibalizing sales from the Mac Pro and iMac. It would be cannibalizing sales from PC companies like Dell and HP. Nobody seems to get that.

Your assumption is that most $1500 tower sales would go to switchers?

Why don't I quite buy that. What's the compelling sales point for a $1500 tower that is probably twice the price of a comparable Conroe based Dell? OSX?

Even cheaper, no one is likely to buy a $2.4K Apple to run Windows vs a more expensive Precision. Do you see Apple taking Precision sales away from Dell? Because I sure don't.

Well maybe a few...I won't be buying another Precision (I've got a Precision 670 and 2 380s) but I'm already a Mac fan.

Vinea
post #262 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

Software RAID isn't always slower. Hardware RAID often has better fault protection though.

Doing RAID in software should take additional cycles from the CPU, specially for RAID configurations that require parity computation, lowering the overall system performance.
post #263 of 301
Quote:
The new "cable-free, direct-attach installation system" for the hard drives seems like the mechanism used in the G5 XServes. I REALLY HOPE that Apple will provide all the enclosures for the drives so that we will be able to upgrade/add the drives ourselves; $400 for a 500GB drive is a ripoff.

I am really anxious to know more about this. Anyone have anything to add here? Thanks!
post #264 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwswami

Doing RAID in software should take additional cycles from the CPU, specially for RAID configurations that require parity computation, lowering the overall system performance.

But not by more than a few percent. It was a problem years ago, but not anymore. I used it successfully with far slower machines than these.
post #265 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwswami

I am really anxious to know more about this. Anyone have anything to add here? Thanks!

It looks to be a simple removeable drive case, or plate that the drive is attached to, similar to a hot removable system. It just plugs into the rear sockets.
post #266 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

But not by more than a few percent. It was a problem years ago, but not anymore. I used it successfully with far slower machines than these.

Thanks, that's good to know.
post #267 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

It looks to be a simple removeable drive case, or plate that the drive is attached to, similar to a hot removable system. It just plugs into the rear sockets.

I had a G5 XServe and it shipped with filler drive cases in the unused slots. These filler cases were missing the connector end and hence couldn't be used to add a drive. And since this was a custom design, I was stuck with ordering from Apple.
post #268 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by mwswami

I had a G5 XServe and it shipped with filler drive cases in the unused slots. These filler cases were missing the connector end and hence couldn't be used to add a drive. And since this was a custom design, I was stuck with ordering from Apple.

This is something that we'll just have to see. While I can understand that being true for an X Serve, where the cases are external, these are internal. I'm not even sure that the photo's that Apple has released are from machines thar have their drive bays filled with drives, or empty cases.
post #269 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

2x 2.66 GHZ dual core, Xeon 5150, the same as shown in the Keynote picture.

Also, the optical drive option you picked is a dual optical drive, including a CD writer plus a DVD writer.

Here is a print of the order page:
http://demaagd.com/gr/DellPrec590.pdf

There is a $408 difference between the Economy plan and the Essential plan that you listed in your original quote:
http://demaagd.com/gr/DellPrec590-2.pdf

I "ordered" through Dell Small Business. If you picked Gov or Large Business, the default service plan might be higher.


Ah...that's the culprit. I went medium/large business which is where I usually order from. I stand corrected.

That sucks though, that means I need to check all categories to make sure I can reduce options I don't want and there may be some combos I simply can't get.

Vinea
post #270 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

This is something that we'll just have to see. While I can understand that being true for an X Serve, where the cases are external, these are internal. I'm not even sure that the photo's that Apple has released are from machines thar have their drive bays filled with drives, or empty cases.

If I am interpreting it right, I think all the Mac Pro carriers are included and no extra boards are needed.

In the "Tech Specs" page:

"Four independent 3Gb/s Serial ATA cable-free, direct attach hard drive bays; four internal hard drive carriers included"

http://www.apple.com/macpro/specs.html
Under the "storage" category, top of second column.

Other interesting things:
You can downgrade the CPUs to a 2.0GHz Quad to save $300, only $200 more than the previous dual core 2GHz.

The 3GHz Quad ends up being the same price as the old PPC Quad.
post #271 of 301
This is the first Workstation I'm buying from Apple. Nothing about these new Mac Pros' disappoints my needs or wants.
post #272 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

If I am interpreting it right, I think all the Mac Pro carriers are included and no extra boards are needed.

In the "Tech Specs" page:

"Four independent 3Gb/s Serial ATA cable-free, direct attach hard drive bays; four internal hard drive carriers included"

http://www.apple.com/macpro/specs.html
Under the "storage" category, top of second column.

Other interesting things:
You can downgrade the CPUs to a 2.0GHz Quad to save $300, only $200 more than the previous dual core 2GHz.

The 3GHz Quad ends up being the same price as the old PPC Quad.

Yes, they are Jeff. Timing is funny. I just went back to that page and saw it. Didn't notice it the first time.

I wish they would drop that grey on black lettering, I have to squint to read it.

And, in keeping with Apple's terrible policy of only quoting max capacities, when they sell it, the drive bays should be able to handle any SATA 750GB, or higher when they come out, drives.

That gives the machines a total of 3TB, not 2 TB.
post #273 of 301
Thanks for remembering me THT. I was off in that I predicted 2.33 instead of 2.66 though as mid-line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

No way is Apple going to take a margin that low. 25% is the minimum.

That's basically how it works out. $2200 for a Quad-2.0 w/ 1 GB RAM. Parts cost about $1650 (7300GT instead of 7600GT). I guessed a $2200 Quad low-end, and pretty much got it.
post #274 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

Thanks for remembering me THT. I was off in that I predicted 2.33 instead of 2.66 though as mid-line.



That's basically how it works out. $2200 for a Quad-2.0 w/ 1 GB RAM. Parts cost about $1650 (7300GT instead of 7600GT). I guessed a $2200 Quad low-end, and pretty much got it.

I guess we should figure what kind of prize to get.
post #275 of 301
Um, the shot at buying a Mac Pro is enough. Off to pizza, then to work on the parents.
post #276 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZachPruckowski

Um, the shot at buying a Mac Pro is enough. Off to pizza, then to work on the parents.

Good luck. I know what that's like, I AM "the parents".

Fortunately for my daughter, I don't mind doing it.
post #277 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross

I wish they would drop that grey on black lettering, I have to squint to read it.

And, in keeping with Apple's terrible policy of only quoting max capacities, when they sell it, the drive bays should be able to handle any SATA 750GB, or higher when they come out, drives.

That gives the machines a total of 3TB, not 2 TB.

I complained about the coloring on the MacBook Pro pages several months ago to a graphic design person and he didn't understand the complaint. I guess low contrast text is going to be the new fine print. A lighter gray would do wonders.

Are computer makers somehow not able to offer the latest hard drives? I haven't seen a notebook from anyone that offered the 160GB notebook drives (some even only offer 100GB max BTO for high end models), and I haven't seen any desktop yet that offered the 750GB drives. Not that it matters to me, because I'd just get the minimum drive and order upgrades from somewhere else.
post #278 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

If I am interpreting it right, I think all the Mac Pro carriers are included and no extra boards are needed.

In the "Tech Specs" page:

"Four independent 3Gb/s Serial ATA cable-free, direct attach hard drive bays; four internal hard drive carriers included"

http://www.apple.com/macpro/specs.html
Under the "storage" category, top of second column.

Thanks! I think I am ready to buy it now.
post #279 of 301
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM

I complained about the coloring on the MacBook Pro pages several months ago to a graphic design person and he didn't understand the complaint. I guess low contrast text is going to be the new fine print. A lighter gray would do wonders.

Are computer makers somehow not able to offer the latest hard drives? I haven't seen a notebook from anyone that offered the 160GB notebook drives (some even only offer 100GB max BTO for high end models), and I haven't seen any desktop yet that offered the 750GB drives. Not that it matters to me, because I'd just get the minimum drive and order upgrades from somewhere else.

I AM a graphics design person, and can tell you that the rule is to NEVER even use more than a short bit of white text on black. Grey on black is a basic no no, but some designers think it is so very, ooh ooh cool.

Apple has always been conservative.

Using the Wayback Machine, I go to my old 950. It took SIMMS of a max size of 4 MB (for you new fogies out there, yes 4 MB.).

There were 16 memory slots. I called Apple and asked if the machine would use the new 16MB SIMMS that had just come out. I was, at first, told no. Under duress, he admitted that he didn't know, because Apple hadn't tested any 16MB SIMMS.

I bought two ($1,200 apiece!), and put them in. They worked perfectly.

When Apple first came out with the G5 Powermac, they claimed a max of 8 GM RAM, you might remember. But, in the developers specs I downloaded, it was made very clear that they would take 16GM RAM. Why didn't Apple advertise that? Because the DIMMs cost $7,000 apiece, and guess what? Apple hadn't tested them!

I can only assume that Apple hasn't tested the 750's to see if the heat and power draw is within their specs as yet. Therefore, they are loathe to claim it.
post #280 of 301
The Mac Pro doesn't seem to have an IR sensor \ . It pretty much means either

1. New Cinema Displays with IR (and iSight) are coming, or

2. Separate IR accessory (USB/IR and Apple Remote) that can be used with older Macs as well
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