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Don't Believe In Evolution? Read This. - Page 8

post #281 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy

This just caught my eye. Are you saying you like Fred Hoyle's steady state model? I thought just about everyone in science now accepts the hot big bang model. Creation, if you will, occurred 14 billion years ago. Since then it has just been formation of thing by particles following natural laws, in the universe that is.


no im not suggesting that. The big bang happened - the most recent data suggests 15.7 billion years ago, we've moved on a bit since 14 billion. That doesn't mean that it was the first time it happened though.
post #282 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK


the most recent data suggests 15.7 billion years ago, we've moved on a bit since 14 billion.

More like back to 15.7 billion years. I believe it started at 15 to 17 billion years and came down to about 14 billion. I thought the date was gradually converging, but it appears to oscillate. I'll check back in ten years.

post #283 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

Your POV, is acutally more in line with the more esoteric eastern philosophies in that God is an abstract concept responsible for a one off creation event.

Ok, so I should probably avoid any link to Creationism if it is strictly defined to be the Biblical account.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

My opinion is that i dont know and im fine with not knowing, its the only honest answer - if i had to speculate, I would go for everything was always here.

I agree it's the only honest answer anyone can give. I really hate when my religious relatives try to tell me they know they are right. I wouldn't care if they said they didn't know but believed in Creationism but they speak to me as if how is it's unbelievable I don't think how they do, after all it's so obvious.

When I officially said that I wasn't having any of it and that I never really bought into the religion, I even had church people visit me wondering if I had been coerced or brainwashed into believing evolution. I was like well, firstly I didn't study biology and secondly, they're not the ones coming to my house trying to convince me otherwise and they keep sending me articles about why evolution is completely wrong, y'know quoting the old statements they like to push about.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

if i had to speculate, I would go for everything was always here.

At first I thought you meant no big bang too but everything could have been there and just changed state. This would imply no creation event, just a remodelling. I couldn't imagine why it would just happen but it's a possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

What was know to them - and is valid, is what we would now call philosophy, psychology and spirituality.

To an extent yes. They weren't uneducated though. When you see some of the achievements they made back then, it still puts some of us to shame. I agree entirely though, it's merely a human interpretation of events.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

If you want to understand the context of genesis

Nope, I don't read the Bible and as I said, I don't consider it a reliable source of information. I'm just saying that some of the ideas it presents are interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

Are you so shallow that if someone stands up and says you are a grand monkey, then you're life is pointless and worthless. What an insult to monkeys. Do you not love, feel, cry, laugh, want, need, give etc, that is not pointless or worthless - you must have a very bad contempt for yourself if your emotions and consciousness mean nothing, well the good news is, is that monkeys have all these same emotions too, and you are a grand monkey.

I'm afraid I don't consider those emotions meaningful at all. I've said this before but my emotions arise from the way I was designed so the fact that I am subjected to them doesn't surprise me nor does it make me feel they mean anything more than the fact I am alive.

Everything that we do with the exception of the idea that we are more than we can see propagates the idea we are nothing more than just another species continuing in a vacuous cycle of existence.

Why do we work, to earn money to buy food to eat
Why do we eat, to survive
Why do we survive, to eventually love and to mate
Why do we have offspring, to ensure the survival of the species

and so the cycle repeats. There's nothing deep in there, we're just going through the motions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

Dont insult the monkeys

The Samaritans should make a bumper sticker with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

If there was a creator, you need to explain how he was created, or how he came into being, or a mechanism where he could have been eternal - a creator solves nothing other than moving the goalposts back a notch.

But what's the difference between me saying to you well, if we have evolution then what came before evolution? You saying you won't accept a creator without knowing more about how the creator came about is similar to someone else saying they won't accept evolution in it's entirety until there is evidence of what started it.

We have evidence to support both theories.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

Maybe, you are not inquiring enough to want to ask this question? maybe you dont care, or are happy to accept what someone you consider a higher status than you tells you?

Clearly not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

And if the creator has a creator, is there an infinite line of creators? who was the first - I want to know.

There could be but there doesn't have to be. The point I am making is not that we have to understand what the creator is just that we shouldn't dismiss the existence of one as a possibility.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

I consider the human race to be very important, just because we are a nanospeck in the grand scheme of the universe doesn't make us any less important.

Exactly, the Anthropic Principle agrees. But I would consider that had we arrived here merely as a result of an event that has a non-zero probability of occurring spontaneously that it would be less important. Now you could say that if it was a rare event, the fact that it actually happened and has sustained an intelligent life form so we could reach the level of development we have now that it's significant but ultimately I wouldn't see the achievement given that there would be no ultimate goal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

It isn't the scientists going round saying that life is unimportant - its the fundies who are saying that unless you believe our delusion, you are a pile of shit.

Yeah they do say that. They're very callous sometimes in that if they know of someone who has turned away from their religion that they are going to hell. It's really funny how they make stuff up. I asked them if someone who was considered a Christian but then decided to live how they wanted that they'd still go to heaven because they had said that once you are saved it doesn't get revoked. After a bit of hesitation they said that if someone turned away from the religion then it would be likely they were never a true Christian in which case they'd still go to hell.
post #284 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin

We have evidence to support both theories.

Please excuse my replying to your lengthy post with a one liner but,

O RLY!???
post #285 of 522
Marvin:

Quote:
Everything that we do with the exception of the idea that we are more than we can see propagates the idea we are nothing more than just another species continuing in a vacuous cycle of existence.

And how might an intelligent designer change that?

If you believe in any of the popular gods then you are nothing more than a spirit created merely to worship him or be damned to eternal punishment. Is that hopeful? Is that joyous? Is that inspiring? Under those gods, you are either a slave in paradise or a slave in hell; always a slave.

If you believe in the supremely disinterested deist god you must finally consider yourself the ultimate latchkey kid of the universe, brought into existence in a fit of divine boredom, only to be ignored for an eternity. Is this not even less hopeless and bleak than the most pessimistic of atheistic worldviews? Surely it is better to arise from natural laws than to be ignored by one's own eternal father.

If you believe in the pantheist "god" of everything in everyone, then all you are doing is personifying all of the varied and complex psychological and emotional connections that have evolved as part of our societies. It is atheism with a smiley face tattoo.

I can use my words to paint any worldview that exists in any way I like. I can make the most wretched seem splendid, the most chaste seem depraved, and the most hopeful seem joyless. It is all empty sophistry, and that is all you engage in with your "vacuous" talk. You choose to see it as vacuous because you have decided that an intelligent creator is necessary to meaning. However, your own fantasies are not what determines everyone else's reality.

Quote:
But what's the difference between me saying to you well, if we have evolution then what came before evolution? You saying you won't accept a creator without knowing more about how the creator came about is similar to someone else saying they won't accept evolution in it's entirety until there is evidence of what started it.

We have evidence to support both theories.

If you have some evidence that would support an intelligent creator of all things, I would absolutely flip over backwards in surprise, shock, and joy. Please present this.

Acceptin part of evolution but denying other parts simply because one wants to believe in a creator is akin to saying, "I believe in 100, because I can count to 100, but no one has ever actually counted to 1 billion, so I do not believe in 1 billion." It is accumulation and nothing more. It takes an act of directed will to draw that line of demarcation between the evolution of man and the evolution of all other species.

Quote:
There could be but there doesn't have to be. The point I am making is not that we have to understand what the creator is just that we shouldn't dismiss the existence of one as a possibility.

But what is the purpose of considering it or even talking about it? It is nothing but masturbation.
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post #286 of 522
In addition to loving pancakes, I love masturbation
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post #287 of 522
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder

In addition to loving pancakes, I love masturbation

Please don't mix the two. You're probably already scaring your neighbors.

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post #288 of 522
"This isn't whipped cream on these, is it?"
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post #289 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kickaha

"This isn't whipped cream on these, is it?"

No. It's frosting.
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post #290 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat


If you believe in any of the popular gods then you are nothing more than a spirit created merely to worship him or be damned to eternal punishment. Is that hopeful? Is that joyous? Is that inspiring? Under those gods, you are either a slave in paradise or a slave in hell; always a slave.

To me it sounds like you are describing satan, the devil himself. You evidently think all the gods of the world religions are bad, or evil. Why not a nice God, who cares about us, and does good things for us? I don't want to discuss religion, but wanted to object to such a cruel god that you describe.

post #291 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy

To me it sounds like you are describing satan, the devil himself. You evidently think all the gods of the world religions are bad, or evil. Why not a nice God, who cares about us, and does good things for us? I don't want to discuss religion, but wanted to object to such a cruel god that you describe.


to me, it sound like you have a fantasy about a God that you hope exists, rather than actually reading and understanding the nature of God in the Bible.

Its reading time...have a good read through this,

http://www.evilbible.com/
post #292 of 522
Hot on the heels of the Haggard Ted scandal, something that slipped under my radar for a while.

It seems that Mr Creationist himself, Kent Hovind aka Dr Dino, he that built a 25 million dollar creationist museum to scare the crap out of little kids with a replica of Noah's Ark complete with the screams of drowning athiests - is in a spot of deep water himself...

http://www.pensacolanewsjournal.com/...11030338/1006#

read it and laugh your ass off.
post #293 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

...read it and laugh your ass off.

I had no idea 58 years in prison could be funny.

Hovind has been doing this for years -- it finally caught up with him.

Quote:
Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk. And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Hero'di-ans, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men. Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not? But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites? Show me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny. And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription? They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

How in the hell, a Christian can read that and come away with 'Oh yea, screw the IRS,' is beyond me.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #294 of 522
snoopy:

Quote:
Why not a nice God, who cares about us, and does good things for us?

I have never heard of such a god. Where might I read about it?

I know of a very popular god that is worshipped by the Abrahamic religions that requires full allegiance and worship on the punishment of eternal damnation and hell. However, that god does not qualify as a "nice god".
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post #295 of 522
A couple of observations while my index steeps in dual-processor, thermometer-bar hell.

We are within God, since there is nothing apart from God, so your understanding of prayer, God starting 'in the beginning', etc. is not relevant. When someone prays, that is communication back though time, as it were. There is an ultimate immediacy for prayer. (Just one example.)

God cannot be judged good/bad/indifferent. Good and bad are moral adherence/divergence from God's moral requirements.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #296 of 522
Quote:
God cannot be judged good/bad/indifferent. Good and bad are moral adherence/divergence from God's moral requirements.

If you believe in god, that is.
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post #297 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

If you believe in god, that is.

Yes, but even the notion of God gets reduced to a guy sitting on a cloud somewhere. When we start using that term, we need to be clear that ultimately -- we're not Greeks after all -- there is nothing outside of God.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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post #298 of 522
Since when were you a pantheist?

The Abrhamic god is, quite literally, three persons in one. God has a human form.

Where do you get this new age nonsense?
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post #299 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

Since when were you a pantheist?

The Abrhamic god is, quite literally, three persons in one. God has a human form.

Where do you get this new age nonsense?

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #300 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK


to me, it sound like you have a fantasy about a God that you hope exists, rather than actually reading and understanding the nature of God in the Bible.

Its reading time...have a good read through this,

http://www.evilbible.com/

Be serious. I read several of these and am surprised you don't see through the scam. These events are recorded as history, things that people did for the most part, not God. It was a cruel world back then. For example, people had slaves, bought and sold them. God intervened to make treatment of slaves more just, not to tell people they must be slave traders.

And God would know a plague was coming. Is it so terrible to use this knowledge to illustrate the seriousness of someone disobeying God? I don't believe God interferes much in our lives here on earth. He let's the good and the bad happen. It's my opinion only, but no, I don't believed God suddenly created all those germs just to kill 70,000 people, or whatever it was. I think he took advantage of the situation to make a point. He let the people think what they will think.

And Jesus exaggerated frequently, as some do today. This website takes advantage of those who can't tell difference, whether someone is exaggerating or not. Just because Jesus was God doesn't mean he wasn't fully man too. I'm sure he liked to have fun and joke just as much as the next guy.

Maybe you should read the source, and not rely on other's commentary.

post #301 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

When someone prays, that is communication back though time, as it were.

face it dmz I have pervaded your thoughts, bwahahahaha
post #302 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy

Be serious. I read several of these and am surprised you don't see through the scam. These events are recorded as history, things that people did for the most part, not God. It was a cruel world back then. For example, people had slaves, bought and sold them. God intervened to make treatment of slaves more just, not to tell people they must be slave traders.

And God would know a plague was coming. Is it so terrible to use this knowledge to illustrate the seriousness of someone disobeying God? I don't believe God interferes much in our lives here on earth. He let's the good and the bad happen. It's my opinion only, but no, I don't believed God suddenly created all those germs just to kill 70,000 people, or whatever it was. I think he took advantage of the situation to make a point. He let the people think what they will think.

And Jesus exaggerated frequently, as some do today. This website takes advantage of those who can't tell difference, whether someone is exaggerating or not. Just because Jesus was God doesn't mean he wasn't fully man too. I'm sure he liked to have fun and joke just as much as the next guy.

Maybe you should read the source, and not rely on other's commentary.


you amuse me, i'll let you live, for now.
post #303 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

We are within God, since there is nothing apart from God, so your understanding of prayer, God starting 'in the beginning', etc. is not relevant. When someone prays, that is communication back though time, as it were. There is an ultimate immediacy for prayer. (Just one example.)

God cannot be judged good/bad/indifferent. Good and bad are moral adherence/divergence from God's moral requirements.

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever made a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." -- Thomas Jefferson

I'd say TJ's words apply pretty well apply to the above meaningless babble too.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #304 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by shetline

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever made a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus." -- Thomas Jefferson

I'd say TJ's words apply pretty well apply to the above meaningless babble too.

oh crap, i actually understood what dmz meant, what is becoming of me, nooooooo.
post #305 of 522
dmz:

Does god not have a human form? Were we not created "in his image"? Is not every single conception of god in scripture as an actual, definite being? Does the Trinity not exist?

Why are you banging your Internet head on the wall?

snoopy:

Quote:
These events are recorded as history, things that people did for the most part, not God. It was a cruel world back then. For example, people had slaves, bought and sold them. God intervened to make treatment of slaves more just, not to tell people they must be slave traders.

God gave them specific commands on how to be slave traders, that is participation in the slave trade (at the very least). Why did God not just say, "Stop participating in the slave trade."?

Quote:
And God would know a plague was coming. Is it so terrible to use this knowledge to illustrate the seriousness of someone disobeying God? I don't believe God interferes much in our lives here on earth. He let's the good and the bad happen. It's my opinion only, but no, I don't believed God suddenly created all those germs just to kill 70,000 people, or whatever it was. I think he took advantage of the situation to make a point. He let the people think what they will think.

God did not create "all those germs"? What did create "all those germs"?

Quote:
And Jesus exaggerated frequently, as some do today. This website takes advantage of those who can't tell difference, whether someone is exaggerating or not. Just because Jesus was God doesn't mean he wasn't fully man too. I'm sure he liked to have fun and joke just as much as the next guy.


Quote:
Maybe you should read the source, and not rely on other's commentary.

Ok, I'll just post some source with absolutely no commentary:

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Bible

Judges 19: [i](20) And the old man said, Peace be with thee; howsoever let all thy wants lie upon me; only lodge not in the street. (21) So he brought him into his house, and gave provender unto the asses: and they washed their feet, and did eat and drink.
(22) Now as they were making their hearts merry, behold, the men of the city, certain sons of Belial, beset the house round about, and beat at the door, and spake to the master of the house, the old man, saying, Bring forth the man that came into thine house, that we may know him. (23) And the man, the master of the house, went out unto them, and said unto them, Nay, my brethren, nay, I pray you, do not so wickedly; seeing that this man is come into mine house, do not this folly. (24) Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing.

(25) But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go.

(26) Then came the woman in the dawning of the day, and fell down at the door of the man's house where her lord was, till it was light. (27) And her lord rose up in the morning, and opened the doors of the house, and went out to go his way: and, behold, the woman his concubine was fallen down at the door of the house, and her hands were upon the threshold. (28) And he said unto her, Up, and let us be going. But none answered. Then the man took her up upon an ass, and the man rose up, and gat him unto his place.

(29) And when he was come into his house, he took a knife, and laid hold on his concubine, and divided her, together with her bones, into twelve pieces, and sent her into all the coasts of Israel. (30) And it was so, that all that saw it said, There was no such deed done nor seen from the day that the children of Israel came up out of the land of Egypt unto this day: consider of it, take advice, and speak your minds.

No commentary here, but a quick summation of the story's events:
- A man and his concubine are travelling through a land to try and get back home to Israel.
- A kind old man takes them in to stay the night.
- Other men from that village/city demand that the old man give up the guest for rape.
- The old man says "no" and offers his virgin daughter and the traveler's concubine for rape, instead.
- The men of the village/city rape the concubine and abuse her so horribly that she dies at the old man's doorstep.
- The traveler cuts the concubines dead body into 12 pieces and sends them to the coasts of Israel.
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post #306 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

oh crap, i actually understood what dmz meant, what is becoming of me, nooooooo.

What he said has a grammatical flow to it that makes sense more or less, but it's all a matter of connecting words which are founded in nothing but vagueness and unspoken assumptions using unjustified leaps of logic.
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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post #307 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat


Does god not have a human form? Were we not created "in his image"? Is not every single conception of god in scripture as an actual, definite being? Does the Trinity not exist?

It doesn't if you're LDS. Aren't there other, more orthodox denominations (not that LDS are a denomination) that are anti-trinitarian?
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post #308 of 522
Wait, is there evidence that an intelligent creator exists?

Post it, post it! Marvin is a greater natural philosopher than Newton or Hawking and appleinsider is the most important cultural forum in the history of... well, written language.

Evidence of the existence of Obatala of the White Sheet!

Think of it!
post #309 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hassan i Sabbah

Evidence of the existence of Obatala of the White Sheet!

Don't you mean the Flying Spaghetti Monster, heretic!?
We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
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We were once so close to heaven
Peter came out and gave us medals
Declaring us the nicest of the damned -- They Might Be Giants          See the stars at skyviewcafe.com
Reply
post #310 of 522
Grove, is your point that the Bible holds this out as an example of how we're to treat guests this Christmas?

'Cause we have people coming over soon, so I'll need to plan accordingly.
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The evil that we fight is but the shadow of the evil that we do.
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post #311 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

dmz:

Does god not have a human form? Were we not created "in his image"? Is not every single conception of god in scripture as an actual, definite being? Does the Trinity not exist?

I don't want to do any theological spelunking -- the point was that 'god' in any common use means all knowing/powerful/[omni]present bla, bla, bla.

Which means when it is said: 'God lets bad things happen -- so He is bad', or 'why did god let my Grandparents die of Alzheimer's complications, cancer, Parkinsons' complications, and cancer -- what good does it do to pray when God knew all along......?'

God is the originator of all we know -- and yes He says he creates evil -- but evil is a moral separation from God, not a condition that preexisted God -- the prayer thing is the same, God is not bound in time. He isn't 'waiting' for us to pray, all of the past future, etc., are coexistent in His mind.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #312 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by dmz

I don't want to do any theological spelunking -- the point was that 'god' in any common use means all knowing/powerful/[omni]present bla, bla, bla.

...

God is the originator of all we know -- and yes He says he creates evil -- but evil is a moral separation from God

I've never understood this. If God is omnipresent, and "evil" is a kind of distance from God, and God created "evil" (so that we might know good), how can we ever actually get "morally" distant from God? Doesn't God exist in all moral "spaces"?

I know you don't want to do theological spelunking, and if you want, just PM me a response.
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post #313 of 522
Thread Starter 
Here's more fuel for the fire. Newly discovered species:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/liv...n_page_id=1965

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post #314 of 522
dmz:

Quote:
I don't want to do any theological spelunking -- the point was that 'god' in any common use means all knowing/powerful/[omni]present bla, bla, bla.

"god" means many different things to many different people.

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yes He says he creates evil -- but evil is a moral separation from God, not a condition that preexisted God

God created something separate from god? But you said, "there is nothing outside of God." So god is not actually omnipresent?

I would mockingly joke, "Oh, I'm so confused!" But I'm not confused. I am disappointed that intelligent people say contradictory things then ignore the very things they say.
proud resident of a failed state
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proud resident of a failed state
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post #315 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcUK

oh crap, i actually understood what dmz meant, what is becoming of me, nooooooo.

I think you ate an apple sprayed with toxic chemicals or McDonalds or something.
post #316 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat

dmz:

God created something separate from god? But you said, "there is nothing outside of God." So god is not actually omnipresent?

no, no -- a moral separation.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

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In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #317 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by midwinter

I've never understood this. If God is omnipresent, and "evil" is a kind of distance from God, and God created "evil" (so that we might know good), how can we ever actually get "morally" distant from God? Doesn't God exist in all moral "spaces"?

I know you don't want to do theological spelunking, and if you want, just PM me a response.

I guess the best way to say it, is that it's a moral separation.

And at this point there really is no way out of begging the question -- it is entering the realm of the revelatory, where it is left at 'the will of God' -- oh, great mystery. Not so satisfying, intellectually, for some -- however -- the 'god as a guy on a cloud who is watching and capriciously sending people off to privation or hell' -- doesn't logically follow at all. Philosophically/metaphysically, it's in for a penny, in for a Pound. There is a tendency to pull back and scrutinize: 'oh what is that sonofabitch doing now?' -- but after the omni-whatever assumptions are made, there's no turning around.

(Edit: I'll try to Judge Jones you something more on this tomorrow -- but I think that's where all the systematic theology guys leave it.)

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
post #318 of 522
Thread Starter 
You guys are really reaching.

Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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Proud AAPL stock owner.

 

GOA

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post #319 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by groverat


God gave them specific commands on how to be slave traders, that is participation in the slave trade (at the very least). Why did God not just say, "Stop participating in the slave trade."?

I won't pretend to know why God did not actually forbid slave trading, other than an impression that he interferes very little with our lives. If we screw things up, well that's our problem, and we live with the consequences. He is not the great rescuer in the sky.

That said, he cares how we treat one another I believe, so he likely was correcting injustices in slave trading. This is a guess. I'm not a historian and don't know how thing were back then.



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God did not create "all those germs"? What did create "all those germs"?

Germs evolved, no? I said God simply knew about a plague coming, and did nothing to stop it. Again, he is not our rescuer most of the time.



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No commentary here, but a quick summation of the story's events:
- A man and his concubine are traveling through a land to try and get back home to Israel.
- A kind old man takes them in to stay the night.
- Other men from that village/city demand that the old man give up the guest for rape.
- The old man says "no" and offers his virgin daughter and the traveler's concubine for rape, instead.
- The men of the village/city rape the concubine and abuse her so horribly that she dies at the old man's doorstep.
- The traveler cuts the concubines dead body into 12 pieces and sends them to the coasts of Israel.

Are you getting silly now? You don't need to prove that there are terrible deeds described in the Bible. It has many. Then, what are you trying to show with this example? I don't know anyone who would blame this incident on God. And it isn't just the village scum that commits such atrocities. The "children of Israel" committed many too. The Bible doesn't try to cover anything up in this regard either. Many top officials come across looking pretty bad, and many religious leaders are exposed for what they were: bigots and hypocrites.

post #320 of 522
Quote:
Originally Posted by snoopy

I won't pretend to know why God did not actually forbid slave trading

There's a big difference between the 7-year slavery sanctioned in Exodus/Deuteronomy, and the slavery practiced in Athens. (Or anywhere else for that matter.) Let's not forget, 21st-Century levels of indebtedness tend to run a bit longer than that.

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply

In our desire to impose form on the world we have lost the capacity to see the form that is there;
and in that lies not liberation but alienation, the cutting off from things as they really are. --...

Reply
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