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New BlackBerry suffering same 3G connection drops as iPhone

post #1 of 68
Thread Starter 
Cellular access woes initially pinned on the iPhone 3G's particular hardware now appear likely to be thwarting the BlackBerry Bold's debut with AT&T, according to a new report .

Citigroup investment research analyst Jim Suva's early testing of the Bold, which uses the same 3G network standard as current iPhones, finds the device with just as unstable a connection as that reported in the US and elsewhere for Apple's handset, with data sometimes dropping to the slower EDGE network or even cutting out entirely.

"We had a few occasional 3G signal dropping troubles at some locations," Suva writes, "especially on high-rises building streets on our 34th floor... which may be why AT&T has yet to launch the product."

And while Rogers Wireless in Canada has already launched Research in Motion's new smartphone, the researcher suggests that an American launch may hinge on either a patch for the Bold's firmware or straightening out network issues with AT&T, which will be the phone's sole carrier in the US.

Tellingly, the Bold uses a component of its Marvell processor as its 3G modem where iPhone 3G uses a separate Infineon chipset, ruling out identical hardware as the issue.

AT&T has yet to commit to an actual release date for the new BlackBerry despite announcing its plans in May, but hasn't publicly explained the delay.

The interpretation isn't a comprehensive study but comes just as Wired has finished an international study which points to US-based iPhone owners as suffering the largest number of failed data speed tests, particularly in dense urban areas where 3G towers are more likely to be overwhelmed.
post #2 of 68
So what's new about this ? I switched from Verizon (never a dropped call) to ATT in order to purchase an i-phone in the fall. I now have at least 3 dropped calls/day (even with all the "bars"), and the ATT people said that is a good average !

Can't wait to jump back to Verizon !

All the marketing money spent by ATT should be spent towards fixing their system. Then word-of-mouth about their good service would be the best marketing money could buy !
post #3 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by derocketman View Post

All the marketing money spent by ATT should be spent towards fixing their system. Then word-of-mouth about their good service would be the best marketing money could buy !

I agree.

But my question is what does it take to upgrade the capacity of the at&t network?
Is it something they can implement immediately on a tower by tower basis or do we need to wait for some system-wide change?

I'm on the fence with the iPhone right now. All my family and friends love it and I would probably be happy with it as things stand now. But at&t's network is only going to get more and more taxed as time goes by...

Does anybody know the specifics of the process for remedying this?
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post #4 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by derocketman View Post

So what's new about this ? I switched from Verizon (never a dropped call) to ATT in order to purchase an i-phone in the fall. I now have at least 3 dropped calls/day (even with all the "bars"), and the ATT people said that is a good average !

Can't wait to jump back to Verizon !

All the marketing money spent by ATT should be spent towards fixing their system. Then word-of-mouth about their good service would be the best marketing money could buy !

Have fun back at Verizon with their proprietary everything. Even if you do happen to get a phone that's more than just a phone they'll nickle and dime you to death. Case and point - visual voicemail. If you hate dropping calls that much just turn off the 3G until they release a fix in the next few weeks.

If your primary concern is dropped calls you have the ability to remedy that situation - I really don't feel bad for all you guys complaining about dropped calls but are unwilling to turn off 3G and fix the problem. If you want to surf - turn it on - if you aren't surfing, turn it off. Much like what I do with my Wi-Fi.

It's not the best solution but Apple is working on it and in the mean time you have the ability to fix the problem.
post #5 of 68
I imagine AT&T isn't marketing USB 3G Keys as a competitor to DSL/Cable yet?

Surely users of these keys would be complaining about issues like this too.

post #6 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bageljoey View Post


Does anybody know the specifics of the process for remedying this?

They need more towers and additional spectrum...followed by a beefier backbone.

They can't do towers at any greater pace than they have because it's expensive but they are building out their network. The current towers are a tad too far apart but they know this and are building as fast as their pocketbook allows.

Spectrum they are getting from shutting down their legacy TDMA service...giving them back the 850Mhz spectrum which should give them more building penetration capability. Coupled with the 700Mhz spectrum they purchased should fill this gap eventually.

Plus, as one AT&T engineer stated, they went from EDGE experts to 3G novices. This will improve naturally over time.

So things from their side will get better.

Whether it gets better faster than they get more 3G users is questionable...but certainly they know what needs to be done.
post #7 of 68
Forgive the nerd-speak...

The problem is with the way AT&T's software tracks a cellphone. Basically, at any point x, at cycle y, a cellphone could be anywhere in the universe. A tower would have to send out a lot of energy to ping every spot in the universe for a particular phone, and the phone would have to put out a lot of juice to be spotted by the tower (needle in haystack). So, a mathematical system for estimation is used to optimize the amount of power needed by the tower & phone while maintaining the signal. (basically, if the tower knows where you are at cycle y, it uses mathematical estimation to "guess" where you will be at y+1).

When you see "full bars" or whatever, you are seeing that there *is* a signal... but it has no bearing on whether *your particular* signal will be properly tracked if you try to call/whatever someone. The tracking is done by the math formula, which is turned into code.

The problem with AT&T, as I think I posted on a different ai thread, is that the programmers hired the C- math students to write the optimization equations (and, probably, the programmers were C- as well...). The equations are bad, so the tower "guesses wrong" about where your signal will be from cycle to cycle. The result? Dropped calls.

Wikipedia has a pretty good explanation of Kalman Filtering, which is the best mathematical system for such estimations (if you want a book, the best is, "An Introduction to Kalman Filtering With Applications" by K.Miller and D.Leskiw - no, it's not my book).

So... it's not [just] the hardware - I don't know enough about the hardware to say definitively, but I know enough about tracking to know a bad tracking program by the way it works (or doesn't). PS: Kalman filtering is often used as the mathematical basis for tracking everything, from cellphones to airplanes to ballistic missiles. If you have a radar + you need to optimize energy usage => kalman.
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post #8 of 68
I get that people are dissapointed, and agree that AT&T is sucking pretty bad, but I have to second bigmc6000 -- turn off your 3g most of the time; you get better battery life and almost no dropped calls (the only dropped calls I've had with my 3g turned off coincide remarkably with my movement into a dead zone).

I'm hoping that apple creates an option where 3g is only turned on with selected apps; if I want to run safari, then I would be happy to have 3g go looking, but I don't need it running when I'm (a) listening to my ipod, (b) just talking on the phone (c) playing solitare -- its just a waste of battery then.

we'll see how many software iterations until we get to that happy place.
post #9 of 68
My first thought when I heard this and skyscrapers mentioned was multipath. It sounds like the 3G signal is getting interfered with it's reflections. The main fix for that is a stronger signal mentioned previously.
post #10 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyopiaRocks View Post

the tower "guesses wrong" about where your signal will be from cycle to cycle

I understand what you are saying, but what I don't get is WHY it ever comes into play. If I am connected to a tower with a strong signal, no guessing should ever be needed--I should stay with that tower until my signal gets weak. When/if it does, only then should another tower (if there is one) with a stronger signal from my phone, take a "hand off" from the original tower. "Guessing" should not enter into it.

Signed,
iPhone 2.0.2 user who again got several dropped calls last night while NOT MOVING with 5 bars of signal
post #11 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

Have fun back at Verizon with their proprietary everything. Even if you do happen to get a phone that's more than just a phone they'll nickle and dime you to death. Case and point - visual voicemail. If you hate dropping calls that much just turn off the 3G until they release a fix in the next few weeks.

If your primary concern is dropped calls you have the ability to remedy that situation - I really don't feel bad for all you guys complaining about dropped calls but are unwilling to turn off 3G and fix the problem. If you want to surf - turn it on - if you aren't surfing, turn it off. Much like what I do with my Wi-Fi.



It's not the best solution but Apple is working on it and in the mean time you have the ability to fix the problem.

agree 100%, i wish the iphone had a power/ feature management button, because i turn 3g off, bt off when inside, don't use 3g unless don't have wifi and need internet or gps, i wish i didn't have to keep going back and forth to settings--which is now on my home button group
soooo we are hearing "it is the phone---oh no its the antenae....no its the network...well as long as it's not the phone that would require a recall.....it's fixable but by att not apple, apple will put pressure on att, and probably knew that with all the "expansion" that att would have to do in a short time, it was at risk of happening....so like all computer dudes and dudettes we pride ourselves in work-arounds, so this is how i work around the battery issue and dropped calls issue. i don't have dropped calls, i use the tried and true 2g. network. all the other iphone stuff for all the other stuff
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post #12 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by NOFEER View Post

agree 100%, i wish the iphone had a power/ feature management button, because i turn 3g off, bt off when inside, don't use 3g unless don't have wifi and need internet or gps, i wish i didn't have to keep going back and forth to settings--which is now on my home button group
soooo we are hearing "it is the phone---oh no its the antenae....no its the network...well as long as it's not the phone that would require a recall.....it's fixable but by att not apple, apple will put pressure on att, and probably knew that with all the "expansion" that att would have to do in a short time, it was at risk of happening....so like all computer dudes and dudettes we pride ourselves in work-arounds, so this is how i work around the battery issue and dropped calls issue. i don't have dropped calls, i use the tried and true 2g. network. all the other iphone stuff for all the other stuff

I too wonder why Apple hasn't made an "auto-on/off" feature on the iPhone. I mean, is there really some massive quality uptick in voice calls between 3G and EDGE? I think it could be fairly easy for them to release something and say "If you are having problems with dropped calls or battery life Apple encourages you to enable to auto-3G feature which will turn 3G off when not using Safari, Mail, YouTube, and Maps." I realize it's a work around but it would also help A TON with all the whining about battery life and some outlets might get mad at Apple but the consumer would be happy and isn't that what matters?
post #13 of 68
I guess people now can at least understand why Apple decided to use EDGE for the 1st iPhone. 3G network, at least in the US, is not ready yet and as someone said before turn off your 3G feature.
3G is only useful for faster internet and if you need browse the internet while talking. There is no benefit of using 3G while talking (actually it drains your battery twice as fast).
post #14 of 68
I no longer believe the iPhone is faulty. Previously I had read reports on the Interwebs and become convinced, but after hearing about the Swedish tests that found no antenna fault I decided to buy one and it has been flawless with a strong 3G signal (admittedly I haven't had it very long). It is a great product.
post #15 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

it has been flawless with a strong 3G signal (admittedly I haven't had it very long). It is a great product.

Please bear in mind that saying your iPhone's 3G performance is or is not flawless is completely unhelpful unless you also specify where you are.
post #16 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ktappe View Post

I understand what you are saying, but what I don't get is WHY it ever comes into play. If I am connected to a tower with a strong signal, no guessing should ever be needed--I should stay with that tower until my signal gets weak. When/if it does, only then should another tower (if there is one) with a stronger signal from my phone, take a "hand off" from the original tower. "Guessing" should not enter into it.

Signed,
iPhone 2.0.2 user who again got several dropped calls last night while NOT MOVING with 5 bars of signal

It's important to remember that you are never "staying" with a tower. Even if we assume there is only one tower (ie, no 'hand-offs', which is its own fun little math game), the tower is only in contact with your phone once per cycle. So let's assume that AT&T's network has 60 cycles per minute (good for math, bad if they really only cycled once per second) and that you are in a completely flat surface with Line of Sight to the tower and "full bars": in second #1 you are at point x. The tower knows this and you have a connection. Where will you be in second #2? That depends:
- Are you standing still?
- Are you walking?
- Are you in a car moving 55mph?
- Are you in a rocket ship or airplane?
- Are you moving at warp 9.6?

The tower is dumb. It doesn't know if you are moving, what direction you are moving, or how fast you are moving. All it can ever know is position, and ID. So, now, draw a circle around your position in second #1 - everything in the circle represents everywhere in the universe you *could* be at second/cycle #2. The tower will send the info for *your* phonecall/whatever to every spot in that circle. The size of the circle needs to be as small as possible to minimize energy usage (think of the EMFs, think of your cellphone's battery...), but large enough that it doesn't "drop" you (if you are outside of the circle). This is optimization.

That's problem #1. Problem #2 is what happens if, at any cycle x, the tower can't find you? Let's say you momentarily pass through a lead box, blocking line of sight.... do you get clipped conversation ("can you hear me now?") or do you lose the call, altogether? This is AT&T's biggest weakness with their network: basically, their system craps the bed (for lack of a better term) if it can't find you in any given cycle (whether by bad estimation on its part or movement behind obstruction on your part). More towers or more power (think of the EMFs!) could ... help... but wouldn't solve this problem.

That's basically it. Verizon's cdma network is considered technologically older, but Verizon's proprietary tracking software does a much better job [imo, from anecdotal usage-experience] at keeping a connection - if it misses you at one cycle it just tries again at the next cycle and if you're still in the circle you're ok. AT&T's signal does this... poorly.

...oh, also - I had dropped-call problems with AT&T's GSM network a couple years back - I switched to verizon. It's not 3G, or GSM - it's the underlying tracking software. Blaming 3G is like blaming the mailman for bringing you bills.
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post #17 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyopiaRocks View Post

Blaming 3G is like blaming the mailman for bringing you bills.

It's not his/her fault?!?!?
post #18 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by derocketman View Post

So what's new about this ?

what's new is that prior to this info, folks wanted to bash Apple and blame the drops on bad hardware and software, even to the point of suing Apple.

but this information shows that another device on the same network is having issues so the fault is not likely to be 100% Apple but in fact part Apple and part ATT (or even all ATT).

I do think that perhaps Apple needs to readjust the sensitivity levels that force a switch back to Edge cause they seem to be too high, thus folks get low reception. or if there is not something in the software at all, put it in there. that will likely help with the dropped voice calls.

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post #19 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by retroneo View Post

I imagine AT&T isn't marketing USB 3G Keys as a competitor to DSL/Cable yet?
[/IMG]


I'm not sure what you mean by a 'key' but you can go to ATT and get a 3G wireless card that you can use with a laptop and conceiveably with a desktop.

which I suspect is part of why ATT is fighting any tethering via the iphone.

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post #20 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmc6000 View Post

I too wonder why Apple hasn't made an "auto-on/off" feature on the iPhone. I mean, is there really some massive quality uptick in voice calls between 3G and EDGE? I think it could be fairly easy for them to release something and say "If you are having problems with dropped calls or battery life Apple encourages you to enable to auto-3G feature which will turn 3G off when not using Safari, Mail, YouTube, and Maps." I realize it's a work around but it would also help A TON with all the whining about battery life and some outlets might get mad at Apple but the consumer would be happy and isn't that what matters?

EDGE is data only, you would be using GSM for the voice part if turning 3G off
post #21 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post

There is no benefit of using 3G while talking .

Yes there is.
post #22 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

EDGE is data only, you would be using GSM for the voice part if turning 3G off

this perhaps, for those that aren't cell phone tech geeks, you can explain how someone can be standing in the same spot, within a 2 minute block of time. have 3G on with the lowest bar only, but then turn it off and suddenly get all 5 bars. what is causing that switch in 'strength' if the whole Edge/3G issue is moot

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post #23 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyopiaRocks View Post

...oh, also - I had dropped-call problems with AT&T's GSM network a couple years back - I switched to verizon. It's not 3G, or GSM - it's the underlying tracking software. Blaming 3G is like blaming the mailman for bringing you bills.

Thanks for your explanations on this. If the problem (as I interpret it) is in AT&T's software, does that mean that their hardware (towers, transmitters, antennae, etc.) should function fine once they get this sorted out? (Other than tower density, which is a capitalization problem.) If so, that gives us hope that this can be sorted out eventually without AT&T having to 'tear everything out and start over'.

Also, this is jumping the gun somewhat, does any of this have any bearing on future LTE implementations? My understanding is it leverages most of the same GSM hardware already in place.
post #24 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

Yes there is.

The question isn't if there is benefit it's if it's noticeable. I haven't had a single problem operating under 2G/GSM and all the voices come through quite clear. Ultimately you're just having a telephone conversation and considering the average persons talking vocal range is quite limited there's no reason to care about the 20-20k Hz range. I'll give it to you that there is some benefit but that's like oversampling an audiobook - it's generally a complete waste of time/space.
post #25 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post

this perhaps, for those that aren't cell phone tech geeks, you can explain how someone can be standing in the same spot, within a 2 minute block of time. have 3G on with the lowest bar only, but then turn it off and suddenly get all 5 bars. what is causing that switch in 'strength' if the whole Edge/3G issue is moot

I don't know, I wasn't comparing EDGE, and 3G. I was merely commenting on the incorrect use of terminology

GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data
EDGE (and GPRS) are used for data
3G (the GSM variety that is) is used for both.

So if someone turns off 3G on their iPhone, they will have a hard time making, or receiving a voice call on EDGE, they would be using GSM
post #26 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

I don't know, I wasn't comparing EDGE, and 3G. I was merely commenting on the incorrect use of terminology

GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data
EDGE (and GPRS) are used for data
3G (the GSM variety that is) is used for both.

So if someone turns off 3G on their iPhone, they will have a hard time making, or receiving a voice call on EDGE, they would be using GSM

GSM is a 3GPP standard that includes CSD, GPRS and EDGE. All three use the TDMA air interface. The only differences are the data transmission speeds are based on data standard used. They all fall under the '2G' umbrella.

Look at like the difference between UMTA, HSDPA, HSUPA. All are part of the UMTS standard under 3GPP and all use the W-CDMA air interface. These all fall under the '3G' umbrella.
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post #27 of 68
Quote:
GSM is a 3GPP standard that includes CSD, GPRS and EDGE. All three use the TDMA air interface. The only differences are the data transmission speeds are based on data standard used. They all fall under the '2G' umbrella.

Look at like the difference between UMTA, HSDPA, HSUPA. All are part of the UMTS standard under 3GPP and all use the W-CDMA air interface. These all fall under the '3G' umbrella.

You would have been better off quoting the person who was asking the question on the differences, I was merely commenting on the person incorrectly saying they would be using EDGE for a voice call
post #28 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyopiaRocks View Post

...oh, also - I had dropped-call problems with AT&T's GSM network a couple years back - I switched to verizon. It's not 3G, or GSM - it's the underlying tracking software. Blaming 3G is like blaming the mailman for bringing you bills.

Thanks for the explanation. But if people are getting good voice call performance on AT&T's GSM today (unlike what you had a couple years back), why couldn't those tracking algorithms be carried over to AT&T's 3G implementation? What's different, tracking-wise, about 3G?

Or is AT&T's GSM really still bad?
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post #29 of 68
I was trying to keep myself shut about this kind of "unstable 3G connection" issue because the reasons why it happens are clear for me, but now I think I can say something about this.

Well, people should/must get minimal information on how a wireless connection works before starting with "this is a device problem" statements. The quality/strength of a connection signal depends on the network coverage, on how far or near we are from a cell. If the network coverage isn't good, you can get the kickass state of the art device and it wont work well! Here in Europe we have 3G network for some time now and we all experienced that kind of issues: the cityscape doesn't allow the signal to pass through, or we are too far away from a cell (and that can say another one should be placed nearer). Unfortunately it's... ahem... "normal"! So the problem is not in the devices, is in the carrier itself. There are limitations on where the signal can pass through and, even when it finds its way of propagation, the signal gets weaker with the distance. Even with wired communications there's loss of bandwidth with the distance (take ADSL as an example).

With all that, people should argue with the carriers in order to get better network coverage and not with the device makers. There can be exceptions like 2 different devices using same carrier and one has less connection than the other but I don't think that's the problem here.

The iPhone and the BB can be amazing devices but they'll never be perfect, and that will be even harder to achieve when 3rd party services like carriers are in the game too. The devices don't depend on themselves only to work properly and we must keep this in mind.
post #30 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

You would have been better off quoting the person who was asking the question on the differences, I was merely commenting on the person incorrectly saying they would be using EDGE for a voice call

I quoted you because you referred to EDGE as not being GSM and as 3G in reference to the "GSM variety" which it is not. The latter I understand as UMTS and W-CDMA are not as well known initialisms and 3G can mean too many things, but the former is clearly incorrect.
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post #31 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

Thanks for your explanations on this. If the problem (as I interpret it) is in AT&T's software, does that mean that their hardware (towers, transmitters, antennae, etc.) should function fine once they get this sorted out? (Other than tower density, which is a capitalization problem.) If so, that gives us hope that this can be sorted out eventually without AT&T having to 'tear everything out and start over'.

Also, this is jumping the gun somewhat, does any of this have any bearing on future LTE implementations? My understanding is it leverages most of the same GSM hardware already in place.

A lot of this problem has more to do with call density than tracking, as Wired has said.

I often get a five bar 3G signal, only to see it drop to one or two bars, and stay there. Then, at times, it will drop out of 3G and go to five or four bars of Edge, then pop back up to three bars of 3G.

This is without me moving the phone at all.

Wired's explanation, which makes more sense than a tracking issue, is that 3G towers are getting overloaded, hence they drop out entirely, and Edge takes over. When some calls finish, capacity is restored, and you get 3G again. It goes back and forth in areas where there is great density of 3G phones.

Digital is either working, or not working. If capacity is too low, there will be problems.

Combine this with not quite enough towers in a number of areas and you have problems. Also, AT&T has said that the 3G towers are being upgraded as to the strength of the signal. That will help as well.
post #32 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux View Post

Thanks for your explanations on this. If the problem (as I interpret it) is in AT&T's software, does that mean that their hardware (towers, transmitters, antennae, etc.) should function fine once they get this sorted out? (Other than tower density, which is a capitalization problem.) If so, that gives us hope that this can be sorted out eventually without AT&T having to 'tear everything out and start over'.

Also, this is jumping the gun somewhat, does any of this have any bearing on future LTE implementations? My understanding is it leverages most of the same GSM hardware already in place.

...maybe, possibly, probably? Unfortunately, I would be speculating about whether AT&T's specific implementation will solve their problem with signal tracking. As a discouraging example: when the US Gov't (and contractors) upgrades radars, they have a nasty habit of trying to patch legacy systems whenever possible (cost-savings). This carries-forward many of the glitches from past systems into the new ones.

I am guessing that AT&T would employ similar cost-saving techniques, including porting their support/tracking software when possible. As technology improves, a better iphone antenna/chipset/etc would [possibly] compensate, allowing for a more-stable system without giving EMF-worriers huge brain tumors... another possibility is that Verizon's new network will [eventually] be iphone-friendly for one reason or another, and US customers will be able to switch and get the benefits of better tracking.

The problem with the question you raise is that tracking software is proprietary, and the really good stuff is classified by the US Gov't (they don't want to share their tracking toys with the other children...). AT&T can't just borrow someone else's, and if they wrote new software from scratch there would be new errors to fix (replace OS9.2 with OSX 10.0 and watch people go berzerk when 50% of calls are dropped in the first week of go-live).

The downside: This will be an ongoing Cingular/AT&T weakness for the foreseeable future.
The upside: Software patches in a phone *can* compensate for this, to a degree, and Apple has a decent incentive to make a propriety chipset that makes the biggest receiving area while using the least amount of power/battery life...
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post #33 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

I quoted you because you referred to EDGE as not being GSM and as 3G in reference to the "GSM variety" which it is not. The latter I understand as UMTS and W-CDMA are not as well known initialisms and 3G can mean too many things, but the former is clearly incorrect.

That is not what I said, I said EDGE is for data, not voice.

I put the GSM variety beside the 3G as EVDO (while is 3G) is data only
post #34 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

That is not what I said, I said EDGE is for data, not voice.

I put the GSM variety beside the 3G as EVDO (while is 3G) is data only

You are always trying to rewrite what you said even thought it's only a scroll away. You wrote, "GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data" despite GSM being the same standard used for GPRS and EDGE.
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #35 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

You are always trying to rewrite what you said even thought it's only a scroll away. You wrote, "GSM is for voice, or circuit switched data" despite GSM being the same standard used for GPRS and EDGE.

Now you are just getting picky

GSM is circuit switched, GPRS is a addition to enable packet switching for data.

Yes GSM can be used for data, but if you did it would be CSD, so 9.6k, or 14.4k.

For GSM package swtiched data you could use GPRS, or EDGE.

You don't use GPRS/EDGE for voice which is the point I was trying to make
post #36 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfanning View Post

You don't use GPRS/EDGE for voice which is the point I was trying to make

Then that is all you had to say. The other stuff is just confusing. Cellluar standards are so f-ing confusing as it is and the US, with their disparate systems, makes it even tougher to get a handle on.

Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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Dick Applebaum on whether the iPad is a personal computer: "BTW, I am posting this from my iPad pc while sitting on the throne... personal enough for you?"
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post #37 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism View Post

Then that is all you had to say. The other stuff is just confusing. Cellluar standards are so f-ing confusing as it is and the US, with their disparate systems, makes it even tougher to get a handle on.

That is what I did say originally
post #38 of 68
I'm pretty sure its the network. Cause up here in Toronto, Canada I usually have 4-5 bars, and my 3G access is really fast. And before this fiasco I've never heard about "dropped calls", cause I've never experienced it - with any cellphone in Canada.
post #39 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by MyopiaRocks View Post

The tower is dumb. It doesn't know if you are moving, what direction you are moving, or how fast you are moving. All it can ever know is position, and ID.

Why can it not also know signal strength? My phone knows (supposedly, if we are to trust the bars) how much of a signal I'm getting from the tower, so the tower should also know how much of a phone signal it's getting. And if that signal is strong, it should use that info in its decision-making process of whether to drop the call if it misses a cycle. If the signal had been (very) weak, then sure, maybe dropping the call is the best course of action. But if I had 5 bars, there is no way the tower should be missing any cycles, so if it does lose one, dropping the call should be its LAST option.

Is this issue the lousy logic you're referring to AT&T using?
post #40 of 68
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii View Post

I no longer believe the iPhone is faulty. Previously I had read reports on the Interwebs and become convinced, but after hearing about the Swedish tests that found no antenna fault I decided to buy one and it has been flawless with a strong 3G signal (admittedly I haven't had it very long). It is a great product.

IPhone is a great product or concept but execution is wanting. I've had some issues with calls but frankly the cell phone component was not a big draw. What was is the portable computer / Internet access functionality. With respect to this usage the iPhone is wanting. That mostly due to bugs in all the software. The apps (mail, Safari, contacts and the like) do what I want when they don't crash. But frankly what good is an E-Mail program that crashes after two SIMPLE messages are read.

I guess that is the #1 thing that burns my behind, mail crashes when you open up nothing but simple E-Mails. It would be a bit different if the crashes happened on really complex multi media E-Mail but this is not the case at all.

Then we get into the issue of syncing through Mobile Me. To much corruption and difficulty here. Moreso I'm wondering why a sync over USB can't fix this. Worst is trying to find the work around on Apples support web site. The killer is that all the need to do is add a button that just completely resuncs an app. So if my calendar gets screwed up I can just tap a button to get a refresh from "me.com". Seems like a good solid solution to me.

Now understand these are frustrations! I now use my iPhone every day, with crashes or other issues every day. It certainly solves a need but I did expect a little better out of Apple for core functionality. The only good thing is that I have confidence that Apple will address the bugs which is more than can be said for the majority of hand set makers.

So I won't suggest to anybody not to buy an iPhone, it is a good machine but you need to be aware of the bugs. In any event I'm hoping most of these issues are dealt with before the end of next month.


Dave
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