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Auto Industry Bailout - Page 7

post #241 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

They have agreed to wage drops in the past, so that guarantees they will in the future? At least I think that was your point, which got muddled in with Iraq.

If I was the UAW, it would be well within my capacity to drop wages in the past, and fail to do so in the future. QED. Your logic is crap.

The logis is sound and binding.

Go back and reread it. I stated it correctly. You fail to understand it.

Sorry for that one chum.

I am not math impaired. That's all that I can say at this end.
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post #242 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Does anyone else see the irony here?

What I see, is a Republican party, that is happy to spend a Trillion dollars to prop up a few corrupt fund (mis)managers, a Republican party that is happy to spend a trillion dollars blowing shit out of innocent people and countries, and a Republican party that cannot spare the 'pocket money' to help out a million of its own people.

Strangly, while they might be the most anti-humane political party on the face of the earth at the moment, they manage to still pull a good vote, and have an army of drones prepared to defend them.

Hopefully, if Detroit fails, the million+ abandoned Americans will (ironically) take up their legal right to own AK-47's, and hunt down every last Republican.
post #243 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Go back and reread it. I stated it correctly. You fail to understand it.

I went back, and continue to fail to understand. Most of what you write is incomprehensible, I'll admit. Your thought process seems very un-mathematical, regardless of your math knowledge.
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post #244 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I went back, and continue to fail to understand. Most of what you write is incomprehensible, I'll admit.

Understood.

It's been a problem of mine with others of less intellect like forever.

What takes me one second to comphehend usually takes all others several minutes to understand.

It's very fustrating making others see that I actually see dead people. \

The indeterminate equations in matrix form are strongly diagonally dominate and have a negative gradient such that the paths of the two wage paths are guaranteed to intersect at some TBD future date.

In other words, the two curves are defined in such a way that they will, have to, intersect.
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post #245 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Understood.

It's been a problem of mine with others of less intellect like forever.

What takes me one second to comphehend usually takes all others several minutes to understand.

It's very fustrating making others see that I actually see dead people. \

So each of us thinks the other one is an idiot. We are even-steven on the ad-hom front.
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post #246 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

So each of us thinks the other one is an idiot. We are even-steven on the ad-hom front.

the rest of us actually think that you're ....
post #247 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

the rest of us actually think that you're ....

Invading the country of Africa.

That one was just so rich.

That they lost all street cred with me here in PO.
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post #248 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

So each of us thinks the other one is an idiot. We are even-steven on the ad-hom front.

Now go back up and reread my edited reply.

If you are not math ... then you will very easily understand exactly what I've stated above.
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post #249 of 616
By the way, isn't interesting that God and apple pie southern Senators are openly colluding with foreign manufacturers to drive down American wages?
They spoke of the sayings and doings of their commander, the grand duke, and told stories of his kindness and irascibility.
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post #250 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Invading the country of Africa.

That one was just so rich.

That they lost all street cred with me here in PO.

I lose track, why are we invading africa now? Perhaps some nigerian scammer sent Bernanke an email promising to erase the national debt if he mailed him a trillion dollars?
post #251 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

the rest of us actually think that you're ....

Both idiots? If you want to talk about African invasion, do it in the right thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksagent

I mean if the UAW has already accepted a drawdown, and would continue with further future drawdowns, or the non-unionized workers have future drawups, it is only reasonable to assume that a definitive date for wage equilibrium is an indeterminate problem currently.

When would they accept future wage drawdowns? We already know that it won't be in 2009 (they flat out refused any cuts before 2011). Are you suggesting that inflation will gradually eat away the difference if the UAW wages are not reduced? The problem is immediate, not something you fix with a gradual inflationary draw down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

By the way, isn't interesting that God and apple pie southern Senators are openly colluding with foreign manufacturers to drive down American wages?

Those higher than market American wages are supported by your tax dollars, so a bailout is just a transfer of wealth from some Americans to other Americans. The people selected for the wealth transfer are the ones "that got a Union job because their uncle is a union member", etc.
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post #252 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

By the way, isn't interesting that God and apple pie southern Senators are openly colluding with foreign manufacturers to drive down American wages?

Robert Reich stated on MSNBC's Rachel Maddow show that there are 18 more of these foreign automaker manufacturing plants either under construction or at some stage in the planning process.

All being built in those pesky southeastern states

The south is still fighting The War of Northern Aggression.
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post #253 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Robert Reich stated on MSNBC's Rachel Maddow show that there are 18 more of these foreign automaker manufacturing plants either under construction or at some stage in the planning process.

The south is still fighting The War of Northern Aggression.

But this time, the higher quality manufacturing is in the south, and the crap is in the north.
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post #254 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

If you want to talk about African invasion, do it in the right thread.

...I had a quick perusal of it. Thanks for making me laugh

You know, until recently, I thought you were a 15 year old kid, but then I found out you were like 40!

Happy days
post #255 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

When would they accept future wage drawdowns? We already know that it won't be in 2009 (they flat out refused any cuts before 2011). Are you suggesting that inflation will gradually eat away the difference if the UAW wages are not reduced? The problem is immediate, not something you fix with a gradual inflationary draw down.

Whoosh.

You want a drop dead date.

Ironic.

I wanted us out of Iraq before we went into Iraq.

Whoosh.

You see a determinate problem and I see an indeterminate problem.
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post #256 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

But this time, the higher quality manufacturing is in the south, and the crap is in the north.

The primary difference being that the south has all these carpetbaggers, like myself, that they need, because in and of themselves, they are all too dumb to do the science and engineering themselves but must import that engineering, science, and technology from outside their boundries.

And that's a very well known fact.

That's always been their way and that is the only way they know how to do things, they are incapable of growing their own.
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post #257 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

I wanted us out of Iraq before we went into Iraq.

Way to misdirect and change the subject, Iraq has nothing to do with this. The proper solution for withdrawal of troops from Iraq is unrelated to the proper solution for the auto bailout.

UAW needs to agree to wage cuts that make the auto companies competitive in 2009, getting government dole until 2011 is bullshit. GM and Toyota sold the same number of cars last year, Toyota made $17 billion, GM lost 38 billion = and the numbers will be much worse in 2009. If GM does not change it could lose over $100 billion. No wage cuts is bullshit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

The primary difference being that the south has all these carpetbaggers, like myself, that they need, because in and of themselves, they are all too dumb to do the science and engineering themselves but must import that engineering, science and technology from outside their boundries.

And that's a very well known fact.

That is very offensive. I worked as an engineer in North Carolina for 15 years - and there were plenty of smart local people that I worked with. NC state puts out plenty of good engineers, for example. You are a bigot.
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post #258 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by nordkapp View Post

...I had a quick perusal of it. Thanks for making me laugh

You know, until recently, I thought you were a 15 year old kid, but then I found out you were like 40!

Happy days

Fiddy-five.

And getting younger every day.
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post #259 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

Way to misdirect and change the subject, Iraq has nothing to do with this. The proper solution for withdrawal of troops from Iraq is unrelated to the proper solution for the auto bailout.

UAW needs to agree to wage cuts that make the auto companies competitive in 2009, getting government dole until 2011 is bullshit. GM and Toyota sold the same number of cars last year, Toyota made $17 billion, GM lost 38 billion = and the numbers will be much worse in 2009. If GM does not change it could lose over $100 billion. No wage cuts is bullshit.



That is very offensive. I worked as an engineer in North Carolina for 15 years - and there were plenty of smart local people that I worked with. NC state puts out plenty of good engineers, for example. You are a bigot.

Where did the technology come from for all those southern auto manufacturing plants.

I know that they didn't invent it there that's for sure.

Meanwhile, Detroit does all it's own work, it's own inventing.

Bigot?

The south today is still so full of bigotry I don't know where to begin.

We carpetbaggers are the south's only hope to come to terms with their explicit bigotry.

TYVM!

And get this, you don't get to decide one damn thing.

You got no street cred here in PO anymore dude and that's a fact!
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post #260 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Fiddy-five.

And getting younger every day.

Same here!

Tell me how you do the younger thing though?
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post #261 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmac View Post

Same here!

Tell me how you do the younger thing though?

Don't ever wear a three piece suit.
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post #262 of 616
Thread Starter 
There seems to be this massive disconnect in all of your thinking. If bankruptcy is going to be so horrible, and destroy the country - why is it OK for the unions to derail it by refusing any pay cuts before 2011? [note - they didn't promise pay cuts in 2011, they refused to consider them before 2011]

Either it is serious enough so that all the interested parties have to do as much as they can to salvage the situation, or it is not serious enough to demand pay cuts (and then, if that is so, why not just let them go chapter 11?).

There is a logical disconnect there.

and franskagent - I was also a carpetbager, being from Canada. But I think that there are a number of forum southerners who will have a thing or two to say to you. Bigotry was worse in Canada, I think, so the south was tame in that regard IMHO.
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post #263 of 616
Seriously Frank, you need to look in the mirror and gain some maturity.
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post #264 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

There seems to be this massive disconnect in all of your thinking. If bankruptcy is going to be so horrible, and destroy the country - why is it OK for the unions to derail it by refusing any pay cuts before 2011? [note - they didn't promise pay cuts in 2011, they refused to consider them before 2011]

Either it is serious enough so that all the interested parties have to do as much as they can to salvage the situation, or it is not serious enough to demand pay cuts (and then, if that is so, why not just let them go chapter 11?).

There is a logical disconnect there.

Let them file Chapter 11.

Fine.

You win.

OK?

Hypothetically speaking, if there are essentially only two outcomes, one where unemployment reaches 10%, and the other where unemployment reaches 20%, and if we had "some" foreknowledge of these two outcomes, which one would you choose?

In other words do we need to do anything in our current situation or do we let the "free market" run it's own course, or do whatever it wants to do as this business cycle continues on it's downward spiral?

No bailouts, no economic stimulus, cut government spending, and lower taxes some more?

The fed is bottomed out on it's interest rate, all we can do now is print money, or not, and see what happens.

I am of the current opinion that we do need to be printing money.
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post #265 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

Seriously Frank, you need to look in the mirror and gain some maturity.

No. Not going to happen. I've found the fountain of youth.
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post #266 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Hypothetically speaking, if there are essentially only two outcomes, one where unemployment reaches 10%, and the other where unemployment reaches 20%, and if we had "some" foreknowledge of these two outcomes, which one would you choose?

If I believed that chapter 11 would bump up unemployment, then I would be for the bailout. However, I am convinced that a pre-packaged bankruptcy is the cheapest solution, and also the one with the minimum amount of layoffs and collateral damage.

Remember that we are going to get hundreds of thousands of lost jobs even with unending bailouts, since the industry has to become smaller now that people are buying fewer cars. The only question is how to downsize them without causing extra damage, and how to make sure that they are competitive, profitable business after the downsizing. UAW wages have to come down, or the layoffs will be even more severe.

How about this - bankrupt the companies, wipe out the common stock, and give equal amounts of stock to the debt holders and employees? I don't care who owns the damn business as long as I don't have to pay tax dollars into it. If the employees owned the auto makers, it would be them arguing with themselves, and they sink or swim on their own without a bailout.
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post #267 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

If I believed that chapter 11 would bump up unemployment, then I would be for the bailout. However, I am convinced that a pre-packaged bankruptcy is the cheapest solution, and also the one with the minimum amount of layoffs and collateral damage.

Remember that we are going to get hundreds of thousands of lost jobs even with unending bailouts, since the industry has to become smaller now that people are buying fewer cars. The only question is how to downsize them without causing extra damage, and how to make sure that they are competitive, profitable business after the downsizing. UAW wages have to come down, or the layoffs will be even more severe.

How about this - bankrupt the companies, wipe out the common stock, and give equal amounts of stock to the debt holders and employees? I don't care who owns the damn business as long as I don't have to pay tax dollars into it. If the employees owned the auto makers, it would be them arguing with themselves, and they sink or swim on their own without a bailout.

The way I see it.

Either the Bush administration does something or it doesn't.

If they do do something that get's us into the next administration, money buys us some additional time to think this one through more thoroughly.

If they don't do something, then they better make up their minds relatively quickly, like in the next few days, such that the automakers can plan accordingly. Because by all the news accounts time is quickly running out for GM and Crysler.

I don't want people to ...

p
a
n
i
c
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post #268 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Either the Bush administration does something or it doesn't.

If they do do something that get's us into the next administration, money buys us some additional time to think this one through more thoroughly.

The big three have been in a slow motion free-fall for 40 years, and now we need two more weeks to think things over?
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post #269 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

The big three have been in a slow motion free-fall for 40 years, and now we need two more weeks to think things over?

Who said two more weeks?

I'm of the opinion that a decision be made by our government ASAP.

Any decision.

They just need to make one ASAP.
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post #270 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

No. Not going to happen. I've found the fountain of youth.

Perhaps conflating youth with immaturity is part of the problem.
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post #271 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Who said two more weeks?

Well, if they get $7 billion from GWB (both failed and current GWB proposals were for $14 billion, $7 for each company), that gives them 4.5 weeks at their current burn rate, but two and a half weeks is turkey and christmas trees, so you have two weeks of thought.

Just about enough time to make it all Obama's problem. Actually, the more I think about it, the more I think that these small bailouts ($14 billion at a time) are kind of designed to trigger bailout fatigue in the public, so chapter 11 is more likely.

Also - here is a proposal, if Chrysler gets any bailout money, Cerebrus has to match it dollar for dollar, but the US gets first dibs on liquidated assets and Cerebrus gets common stock for their money.
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post #272 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flounder View Post

Perhaps conflating youth with immaturity is part of the problem.

OK, I agree with you, I'm immature, I know I'm immature, I've always known I've been immature.

I get it, really I do.

But you see, if I were to become mature, then there would be no joy, no fun, no purpose, to being me.

I can't be something that was not meant to be. Grown up. Mature. I laugh at life, and it laughs right back at me.

I think that now I'll watch The Daily Show, or The Colbert Report, or South Park, or something, anything, to make me laugh at life, to be happy, to smile, to see life's funny side, because life is funny, or should be.
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post #273 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by franksargent View Post

Because by all the news accounts time is quickly running out for GM and Chrysler.

Gee, I wonder who's feeding such "information" to the reporters.
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post #274 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox View Post

By the way, isn't interesting that God and apple pie southern Senators are openly colluding with foreign manufacturers to drive down American wages?

My thoughts exactly. The irony hasn't slapped them in the face yet.
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post #275 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

My thoughts exactly. The irony hasn't slapped them in the face yet.

I missed the implications of the "God and ..." part of that the first time around. Kind of like "Reality has a liberal bias", only this time its "Reality has a chapter 11 bias". God (or Reality) wants the auto makers to fall on their faces.
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post #276 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

I missed the implications of the "God and ..." part of that the first time around. Kind of like "Reality has a liberal bias", only this time its "Reality has a chapter 11 bias". God (or Reality) wants the auto makers to fall on their faces.

Republicans want them to fail on their faces. And they're not even trying to hide that fact. In fact, they want to help the country dive-bomb into an abyss on Obama's watch simply for the right to say, "I told you so. Vote for me."

Kinda like Mortimer and Randolph and their $1 bet. Fuck the consequences.
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post #277 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Republicans want them to fail on their faces. And they're not even trying to hide that fact. In fact, they want to help the country dive-bomb into an abyss on Obama's watch simply for the right to say, "I told you so. Vote for me."

Kinda like Mortimer and Randolph and their $1 bet. Fuck the consequences.

Exactly!

It's all about politics and forcing fundamental demographic shifts in population into the southeast.

Fortunately the 2010 census is just around the corner and they will gain little in that round (Texas being the exception).

In addition the southwest is becoming largely populated by Latins who voted 2:1 for the Democrats, and appear to be in the tank for Democrats.

Obama will bust a move with Cuba, so Florida will forever more be solid blue.

The reality is the south will lose again, just like the last time, and there isn't anything they can do about that.

I wasn't born three days before the day after tomorrow.
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post #278 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777 View Post

Gee, I wonder who's feeding such "information" to the reporters.

Oh, so are you saying they're just faking for the sake of faking?

Seriously funny stuff there.

Seriously.
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post #279 of 616
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Northgate View Post

Republicans want them to fail on their faces. And they're not even trying to hide that fact. In fact, they want to help the country dive-bomb into an abyss on Obama's watch simply for the right to say, "I told you so. Vote for me."

Kinda like Mortimer and Randolph and their $1 bet. Fuck the consequences.

So what SHOULD they do exactly? Their whole philosophy is about survival of the fittest, and GM is a company that should die because there are other better companies out there. We could be on the hook for $200 billion over the course of the next few years if the economy stays bad - how much money do you want to give them to make crappy cars nobody wants to buy?

That money would do a lot more good as infrastructure spending, and it would create replacement jobs that way.

what does "bust a move with Cuba mean"? Any attempt by Obama to normalize relations with Cuba will lose him votes in Florida. That is the reason that we haven't done anything so far - the US cubans hate Castro so much that any attempt to end the embargo will give the Florida delegates to the other party.
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post #280 of 616
Quote:
Originally Posted by e1618978 View Post

So what SHOULD they do exactly? Their whole philosophy is about survival of the fittest, and GM is a company that should die because there are other better companies out there. We could be on the hook for $200 billion over the course of the next few years if the economy stays bad - how much money do you want to give them to make crappy cars nobody wants to buy?

That money would do a lot more good as infrastructure spending, and it would create replacement jobs that way.

what does "bust a move with Cuba mean"? Any attempt by Obama to normalize relations with Cuba will lose him votes in Florida. That is the reason that we haven't done anything so far - the US cubans hate Castro so much that any attempt to end the embargo will give the Florida delegates to the other party.

And you called me a bigot.

I want the bailout and I will get it. So there. And there isn't a thing you can do about that one.

We can refer to the auto bailout in the past tense going forward.

As to Cuba the conventional wisdom is that Castro will die, and then we begin normalization of our relations with Cuba.

You see we actually have a smart guy running the show now.

The Democrats will rule for 20 years straight.

Just like the last time a Republican totally fucked up AmeriKKKa.

Bush 43 is really Hoover II.

And I'm outta here, exiting stage LEFT!
Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
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Every eye fixed itself upon him; with parted lips and bated breath the audience hung upon his words, taking no note of time, rapt in the ghastly fascinations of the tale. NOT!
Reply
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