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Windows 7 vs. Mac OS X Snow Leopard: competitive origins

post #1 of 116
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The tech media is working to pit Microsoft's upcoming Windows 7 release against Apple's new Mac OS X 10.6 Snow Leopard, but the two products aren't really direct competitors.

The operating system most users end up with will depend upon what hardware they choose to buy, not the specific feature details of the software that system happens to run. History reveals that the hardware decision isn't going to be based primarily upon features.

The following presents a historical overview of the competition between Apple and Microsoft in the operating system market leading up to this year's face off between Windows 7 and Snow Leopard. While modern Macs can now also run Windows, Apple is the only PC maker to refrain from actually licensing it from Microsoft as an OEM; in contrast, Apple's Mac OS X only legally runs on the company's own premium PCs. That has enabled Mac OS X to differentiate Apple's hardware from other PC vendors using easy to demonstrate software features and tighter hardware integration, winning back some of the ground Apple lost during the decade of the 90s.

How Microsoft inherited Apple's crown in the 90s

In the 90s, Microsoft and its entourage of Windows PC makers came to largely view Apple as nearly irrelevant, but once Mac OS X arrived and began to catch the attention of users with its slick and sophisticated graphics compositing, its malware-free computing experience, and its unique and consistent interface features, Microsoft was pressured by its licensees to catch up so they could offer a competitive product.

Mac OS X essentially reset the clock for Apple, turning back time to 1990, when the company commanded a greater than 10% share of the entire PC market and dominated nearly all graphical desktop computing. Back then, the remainder of the PC market was running DOS, making it fairly easy for Apple to distinguish its graphical, easy to use product. Windows 3.0, the first version to ever ship installed on a new PC, hadn't yet arrived.

Perhaps things were too easy for Apple; rather than aggressively competing against DOS PCs, Apple used its technical superiority to extract higher prices for its machines. The problem was that Apple's boutique market lacked a boutique outlet for sales. The company was forced to sell its Macintosh models next to cheaper DOS PCs in computer stores and general retailer such as Sears, where they sat at the mercy of retailers who had no incentive to sell Apple's product, as they were making higher margins on the DOS PCs.

Microsoft's command-line DOS operating system.

As Mac sales remained flat, PC sales began to climb rapidly. Microsoft's continuous, incremental updates to Windows also began to blur the line between the Mac experience and that of DOS PCs with its Windows shell installed. Additionally, while Microsoft was building Windows from a relatively clean slate, Apple's Mac OS was tied up with early 80s legacy issues, including a simple cooperative multitasking model and a complete lack of modern operating system features such as protected memory, secure user accounts, and file permissions.

Windows 3.0 was the third major release of Microsoft Windows, released on May 22nd 1990.

Rather than delivering a technology overhaul, Apple released a series of code names for software that never materialized as promised, including Taligent, Copland, and Gershwin. By the end of the 90s, Apple had lost its position as the leader in graphical desktop computing to the point where many observers had forgotten it ever had defined innovation in the industry. Fortunately, the company had a comeback plan thanks to its merger with NeXT and the homecoming of its CEO, Steve Jobs.

A diagram of Copland's runtime architecture based off of one from Apple.

The tables turn in the 2000s

At the beginning of the 2000s, Microsoft had just released Windows 2000 (aka Windows 5.0), a mature and stable revision of its new Windows NT operating system that was developed to replace the DOS Shell version of Windows it had sold as Windows 95/98/Me. Microsoft's competition was all but gone, with Apple down to a roughly 2% share of the worldwide market for all PCs and servers, and IBM's OS/2, NeXT, BeOS, and other desktop operating system competitors out of the picture entirely.

Windows 95, released Aug 24, 1995 (left) and Windows 98, released Jun 25, 1998 (right).

The company's worrisome monopoly trial was about to be set aside by the new Bush Administration, and Microsoft was close to releasing a fusion of Windows 2000 and its consumer hardware-friendly Windows 98 as Whistler. Beyond that release, the company laid out a roadmap including Longhorn and Blackcomb to guarantee that the company could remain at the forefront of desktop PC software innovation as long as it could continue to repress any legal actions challenging its rise to the top through exclusive contracts with OEMs that prevented competitors from entering the operating system market.

Windows 2000 was released February 17, 2000 and targeted business desktops, notebook computers, and servers.

Microsoft was ultimately able to successfully pay off or scuttle any significant legal problems, but it was hit by a new challenge: a festering rash of high profile security flaws tied to its early 90s, pre-Internet legacy. Suddenly, the company was finding itself in the position of Apple a decade prior, with a complicated software roadmap riddled with potholes, a product that was facing increasing price competition (thanks to Linux and other free software), and new competition from Mac OS X that rivaled its position as the leader in desktop innovation.

Windows XP vs. Mac OS X

Microsoft's Whistler, delivered as Windows XP, was internally Windows 5.1, a minor update to Windows 2000. However, with the security work Microsoft had to assume, XP would end up being the company's primary OS throughout the decade. Even two years after the release of Windows Vista (6.0) in 2006, which sprang from Longhorn but took far longer to complete than planned, nearly 80% of Microsoft's installed base remains on XP, and the company's hardware partners continue to advertise their systems' ability to revert back to XP as a feature.

Released on Oct 25, 2001, XP was Microsoft's first consumer OS built on the Windows NT kernel and architecture.

In contrast, Mac OS X 10.0 debuted along side XP but was then updated in a series of major reference releases, including the free 10.1 update in 2001, the mainstream 10.2 Jaguar in 2002, 10.3 Panther in late 2003, 10.4 Tiger in early 2005, 10.4 Tiger for Intel in 2006, and 10.5 Leopard in 2007. While Microsoft released some "service pack" updates for XP during that time, only XP SP2 contained any significant feature updates, mostly related to patching up its security issues. Each of reference releases to Mac OS X delivered major new features, applications, and services for Mac users, in addition to performance enhancements that made the new software run faster even on older machines. Apple has also released dozens of free "service pack" minor updates to its reference releases of Mac OS X.

Mac OS X 10.0 "Cheetah," released Mar 24, 2001 (left) and Mac OS X 10.1 "Puma," released Sep 25, 2001 (right).

Another factor that changed the relationship between Windows PCs and Macs was Apple's development of new retail stores, both free standing outlets owned by the company and "store within a store" locations run inside retail partners' locations. These allowed Apple to showcase its differentiated machines isolated from Windows PCs that competed primarily on price, not on features and usability. The result was that Apple could now sell its machines' features on their own merits, rather than just struggling to match prices with lowball PC makers.

Mac OS X 10.2 "Jaguar," released Aug 23, 2002 (left) and Mac OS X 10.3 "Panther," released Oct 23, 2003 (right).

That retail strategy also shifted the pricing pressure of store brand and no-name PC makers against name brand manufacturers such as Dell and HP, forcing them to race to the bottom the the barrel in pricing, which subsequently resulted in poor product quality that further differentiated Apple's products from those of the other PC makers. Apple's retail stores are now allowing the company to experiment with new manufacturing techniques such as those used in the new unibody MacBooks, as well as higher end, environmentally friendly materials and customized silicon designs.

Mac OS X 10.4 "Tiger," released Apr 29, 2005 (left) and Mac OS X 10.5 "Leopard," released Oct 26, 2007 (right).

All of these integration enhancements fuse Mac OS X into the Mac hardware, making it increasingly less comparable to Windows as a retail product. Apple doesn't advertise Mac OS X as an alternative to Windows, it pits the Mac against generic PCs in more general terms.

On page 2 of 2: Vista vs. Mac OS X; and Windows 7 vs Snow Leopard.


Vista vs. Mac OS X

In contrast, Microsoft has had to keep Windows a general purpose, one-size-fits-all product that it can license to every PC maker on earth apart from Apple. Microsoft's business interests often fail to align with those of its licensees, resulting in skirmishes with its OEMs. These broke out particularly with the release of Windows Vista in 2006. For example, Acer was irritated by Microsoft's price hike on Vista and its strategy to sell the OEMs a crippled Home Basic version that users would have to upgrade directly with Microsoft in order to get the same features they had with XP. Dell and HP pushed back when Microsoft tried to cancel XP and make Vista the only option.

Vista ended up a colossal failure due to the way it was sold by Microsoft, its problems with existing hardware, incompatibilities with software titles, and its poor performance relative to XP, despite offering new features and, in particular, strong new efforts to bolster Microsoft's security reputation. Not even Microsoft's most loyal pundits could defend the release of Vista after months of sales data proved beyond any doubt that consumers didn't care about the new operating system's features or its security advancements; they were only upset that their existing software and hardware ran worse under Vista than it did under XP, and that Vista cost more.

Windows Vista was released Jan 30, 2007 to horrid reviews.

Those events set up circumstances that favored Apple's strategies: all Apple has to do is deliver incremental improvements to Mac OS X and its already happy and expanding pool of Mac users will remain loyal customers, while Microsoft is tasked with rethinking Vista to make it palatable to OEM licensees, suitable for existing users, and yet also feature competitive enough to compare with Apple's offerings. Additionally, Microsoft is running out of potential new customers as the PC market matures into a slow growth phase. Apple has lots of potential for growth, as it is now very profitable with less than 10% of the market, leaving it plenty of Windows users to woo over to its own platform.

Windows 7 vs Snow Leopard

With that background, the game is set for a rematch between Apple and Microsoft, with the Mac maker's latest Snow Leopard due in the first half of the year and Windows 7 aggressively scheduled to arrive shortly afterward. The next segment will look at how Apple plans to reward loyal Mac users while tempting Windows users to switch with Snow Leopard, and how Microsoft plans to correct its mistakes with Vista to regain the upper hand with Windows 7.

Windows 7 build 7000 was released publicly on January 7th, 2009.
post #2 of 116
I'm a huge Apple fanboy, but not the kind who doesn't take an objective look around. With that look into Windows 7, I've found the best version of Windows yet. I'm not switching by any means, but I've found the Windows 7 beta to be rock solid and aesthetically pleasing in my use so far. I'll even go so far as to say that Windows 7 beta is faster than OS X on my Mac Pro (in boot camp of course). Then again, I don't have the Windows beta loaded full of extensions, etc. as I do my Mac.

That being said, Windows 7 is still the same old Windows underneath it all and from an IT standpoint, it still sucks as bad as any other version of Windows. So to recap:

Windows 7 for Users = GREAT!
Windows 7 for Admins (and advanced users) = SOS (Same ol' Shit)
post #3 of 116
I don't know about Snow Leopard...unless they actually include every single little feature they first said would come with Mac OS X.6, I probably won't buy it. However, I am interested to see how Quicktime X will turn outwhether it'll be less than atrocious (like Quicktime 7.5.5) to maybe, hopefully even comparable to VLC.
post #4 of 116
A lot of people are going to get the wrong idea about Snow Leopard. Its not going to be a huge release from a feature stand point. Its a release with TONS of under the hood changes. A lot of changes typical users may never see. But this is a very necessary update for OS X to continue efficiently. One that can't just be in a dot dot release (Mac OS 10.5.7 for example). This is something Microsoft should at least step back and take a look at instead of just trying to force new features and technologies over top of old, outdated, clunky code. Apple trying to sell Snow Leopard for $129 isn't going to help anything either....

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post #5 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

A lot of people are going to get the wrong idea about Snow Leopard. Its not going to be a huge release from a feature stand point. Its a release with TONS of under the hood changes. A lot of changes typical users may never see. But this is a very necessary update for OS X to continue efficiently. One that can't just be in a dot dot release (Mac OS 10.5.7 for example). This is something Microsoft should at least step back and take a look at instead of just trying to force new features and technologies over top of old, outdated, clunky code. Apple trying to sell this for $129 isn't going to help anything either....

I was assuming people would notice ... things like speed / usefulness with cores/gpus with opencl grand central; it just wouldn't be fancy new features, but still noticeable through its increased speed/security.

Also, my favourite part of that article was seeing how applications, like AOL, fell out of use between 2001 and 2006.
post #6 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by L255J View Post

I don't know about Snow Leopard...unless they actually include every single little feature they first said would come with Mac OS X.6, I probably won't buy it. However, I am interested to see how Quicktime X will turn outwhether it'll be less than atrocious (like Quicktime 7.5.5) to maybe, hopefully even comparable to VLC.

Quicktime X and Quicktime 7.x.x will co-exist as QTX is playback only. I don't expect it to be VLC without the help of something like Perian

What features did they "say" would come out with that they didn't?

I'm glad Windows 7 is an improvement. I'll run it in Bootcamp when I get hardware that's fast enough.
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post #7 of 116
Last year, my 2 granddaughters, my son and his wife, my sister and brother-in-law all switched to Macs on their own -- no prodding from me. My oldest daughter has announced her intention to switch in 2009. Market share be damned -- my own blog shows 34% OSX users (no, it isn't a Mac-oriented site). The statistic I'd like to see is market share in non-corporate environments -- market share of personal users.
post #8 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelsalt View Post

I was assuming people would notice ... things like speed / usefulness with cores/gpus with opencl grand central; it just wouldn't be fancy new features, but still noticeable through its increased speed/security.

I said typical everyday users, not professional users. But neither you nor I can say for sure...were both just assuming until it ships.

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post #9 of 116
Nice article. Those images brought some memories
post #10 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post

Quicktime X and Quicktime 7.x.x will co-exist as QTX is playback only. I don't expect it to be VLC without the help of something like Perian

What features did they "say" would come out with that they didn't?

I'm glad Windows 7 is an improvement. I'll run it in Bootcamp when I get hardware that's fast enough.

I too would like to know what features were dropped. I guess the over 300 new features in 10.5 weren't enough???

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post #11 of 116
I'm very happy to see Windows 7 shaping up nicely for Microsoft. Firstly, because most of the world are Windows users and they deserve to have a modern OS that works well. Secondly, because as a Mac user this will push Apple to compete with and/or best Windows 7 more thoroughly.
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post #12 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post

The company was forced to sell its Macintosh models next to cheaper DOS PCs in computer stores and general retailer such as Sears, where they sat at the mercy of retailers who had no incentive to sell Apple's product, as they were making higher margins on the DOS PCs.

So true! Two of my friends worked at Sears "Brand Central" in the early 90's and they were commissioned salesmen. Before the Mac Performas arrived, Apple test marketed three Macs in retail, the Mac Classic, LC, and IIsi. The Macs did sell, but not as well as the PC's mainly because the margin was so low on the Macs, they didn't make any money. So they sold more PC's so they could make more money. Eventually the Classic, LC, and IIsi were replaced with the Performa 200, 400, and 600 models.

Another thing they did to sell more PC's at the time was by demoing the just released game, The 7th Guest. Once the Performa 600CD arrived, they were able to demo Myst on the Mac. But the PC's still outsold the Mac because of the lower price and higher commission margins.
post #13 of 116
The sad thing about the Windows 7 vs. Snow Leopard grudge match to come, is that while Snow Leopard will be a faster, more secure, and more advanced operating system in every way, all the appearances will be otherwise. Intelligent users that do their research already know to choose a Mac over a Windows PC, but the more "average" users only know that "Vista sucks."

The new Vista (Windows 7) doesn't suck any more (at least to the casual observer).

This is a problem and one that could very well see the OS-X adoption rate drop off significantly and even return to a pre-Vista level. The average user is a dumb little bunny and won't see any difference between Snow Leopard and Windows 7's aping of it.
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post #14 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by macxpress View Post

A lot of people are going to get the wrong idea about Snow Leopard. Its not going to be a huge release from a feature stand point. Its a release with TONS of under the hood changes.

whether that is true or not depends on how Apple presents the software.

if they front is as a major overhaul under the hood etc then folks will get it. Same chassis as your current car, but with a more efficient engine.

if they just kinda bleech it out there, then it won't fly in the general market.

Quote:

Apple trying to sell Snow Leopard for $129 isn't going to help anything either....

that all depends on, again,m how it is presented.

I suspect that SL will be marketed in conjunction with new hardware that will really tap the power and need the new system. for those consumers for whom it doesn't really matter they can keep their current machines on Leopard until that machine breaks and they want a new computer. then they get whatever is the current OS for free with the machine. which is dandy for them.
post #15 of 116
Well as long as MS OS has a thing called "registry" their OS will forever become slower after a period of use unless you are the kind who get the OS, install MS Office and thats it kind of people.

I cant wait for SnowLeopard, Im getting bored of the OSX look but I dun really mind the look, I prefer functionality and usability rather then flashy but not usable, like how crappy was the implementation of Flip3D. I prefer flashy, usable and functional though like TimeMachine!! Although I found bugs in Time Machine which could do fixing (Time Machine cannot delete x number of backups, it will give an error where u r required to exclude some stuffs from backup)
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post #16 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelsalt View Post

I was assuming people would notice ... things like speed / usefulness with cores/gpus with opencl grand central; it just wouldn't be fancy new features, but still noticeable through its increased speed/security.

Also, my favourite part of that article was seeing how applications, like AOL, fell out of use between 2001 and 2006.

Mac Box Set = Mac OS X + iLife + iWork for $169
I'm waiting till the Box Set is updated to include Snow Leopard.
Now that is a value!

Snow Leopard will make older Macs run faster and smoother...this is a great way of rewarding loyal Mac users.
It will be a very different experience than for those who purchased underpowered "Vista ready" computers only to find out Vista was too much of a hog.

Apple should play this up in their marketing..."Its like getting a new Mac for $169."
post #17 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

The sad thing about the Windows 7 vs. Snow Leopard grudge match to come, is that while Snow Leopard will be a faster, more secure, and more advanced operating system in every way, all the appearances will be otherwise. Intelligent users that do their research already know to choose a Mac over a Windows PC, but the more "average" users only know that "Vista sucks."

The new Vista (Windows 7) doesn't suck any more (at least to the casual observer).

This is a problem and one that could very well see the OS-X adoption rate drop off significantly and even return to a pre-Vista level. The average user is a dumb little bunny and won't see any difference between Snow Leopard and Windows 7's aping of it.

Well first of all I don't know how this is sad for you. If you like what you have then keep it. And how, long before the final release of either product are you saying, "while snow leopard will be a faster, more secure, and more advanced operating system in every way". You obviously don't know anything. There are so many factors to count in especially when it comes to speed. A previous poster said windows 7 beta was faster, I am sure other posters have had similar or opposite experiences depending on their machine and other things. So why don't we wait until the release to say which is better and for now you can say "snow leopard seems more inticing to me".
post #18 of 116
I am excited to see which one does better, I am also excited to change all my xp and vista machines to 7 and I am excited to see how windows 7 works on my MBP.
post #19 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella View Post

Mac Box Set = Mac OS X + iLife + iWork for $169
I'm waiting till the Box Set is updated to include Snow Leopard.
Now that is a value!

Snow Leopard will make older Macs run faster and smoother...this is a great way of rewarding loyal Mac users.
It will be a very different experience than for those who purchased underpowered "Vista ready" computers only to find out Vista was too much of a hog.

Apple should play this up in their marketing..."Its like getting a new Mac for $169."

Don't forget about Marble.

http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2009/...enamed-marble/
post #20 of 116
"Vista ended up a colossal failure due to the way it was sold by Microsoft".

Really? I know it took a long time to get to consumers and some people are irritated because it does not run as advertised on their machines and it's hard to discount the security problems Windows has... but my feeling is that Vista is like just about every other Microsoft product... they make the Chevy of the computer world - Apple makes the BMW.

I think a more accurate way to say it is: "Compared with Windows XP, Vista was not as well received during the same release period due to the way it was sold by Microsoft".

Many people I know who are on the PC platform love Vista and I suspect it was very profitable for Microsoft even with its troubled roll out. "A colossal failure" it was not, although it wasn't a raging success either and it ain't OSX by any measure.
post #21 of 116
If you're going to use graphics from the Wikipedia, like the Copeland one, you have to attribute it.

How do I know the Copeland graphic is volunteer work? I made it!

When someone just rips it off it's galling, especially if it's volunteer work.

Maury
post #22 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny Mozzarella View Post

Snow Leopard will make older Macs run faster and smoother...this is a great way of rewarding loyal Mac users.

I still demand to see that with my own eyes. Not everyone has a 2.4 GHz - 4GB RAM computer, and Leopard has become quite a slow beast on my 2 GHz - 1GB RAM laptop.

In general, however, 129 USD for a bunch of under the hood changes might be too high for most users.
A young girl recently asked me how she could get the Photo Booth extras her friend had. Turns out it's because she's on Tiger and the other one is on Leopard. I told her that if she wanted that and other improvements, she'd have to convince her parents to get Leopard. She's starting to use her computer, so I have no doubt that QuickLook and other Leopard features (refined Spotlight, …) would soon come in handy.
But does Apple have a way to convince that girl that she wants Snow Leopard?
post #23 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel0418 View Post

Well first of all I don't know how this is sad for you. If you like what you have then keep it. And how, long before the final release of either product are you saying, "while snow leopard will be a faster, more secure, and more advanced operating system in every way". You obviously don't know anything. There are so many factors to count in especially when it comes to speed. A previous poster said windows 7 beta was faster, I am sure other posters have had similar or opposite experiences depending on their machine and other things. So why don't we wait until the release to say which is better and for now you can say "snow leopard seems more inticing to me".

Well, I see you have taken my rather mild criticisms of Widows 7 very personally, which is always a mistake.

To be pedantic, how does my paraphrasing of the difference between the two OS's (even if it's an inaccurate stance as you imply), indicate that I "don't know anything?" How could I even write my name if this was true?

As for the specific criticism, the poster here that said they thought Windows 7 "might even be faster" is the first I have heard from any user or reviewer that this is the case. The general consensus is that Snow Leopard, like Leopard before it, will be more stable than Windows, faster than Windows, and more secure than Windows although as you say, we don't know for sure at this stage.

I may have been overly exuberant in my general assessment, but if you intend to remain so incredibly sensitive to any kind of criticism of Windows 7, perhaps here isn't the best place to post your thoughts.
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post #24 of 116
In Snow Leopard the Grand Central (API's) should give a better performance for multicore CPU or architectures. I just hope that this will not only benefit those with a Mac Pro running 4 or 8 cores!
Could it be that those with 'just' a Core 2 Duo (MacMini, iMac, MacBook (Pro)) won't see any impressive (<5%) speed ups ??? I'm just wondering because many apps do profit from a dual core setup, like Photoshop, FCP, games etc.

Anyone know more about this ?
post #25 of 116
Vista was Microsoft's 10.1. (Other than NOT being a clean break with the core legacy OS, which OS X did achieve.)

Windows 7 is Microsoft's Jaguar. (Finally ready for a larger audience--we hope.)

Snow Leopard is 4 versions later... Apple's Windows Windows 11! Say, 3 years per Windows cycle, that puts us around the year 2020
post #26 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by codymr View Post

"Vista ended up a colossal failure due to the way it was sold by Microsoft"?

Really? I know it took a long time to get to consumers and some people are irritated because it does not run as advertised on their machines and it's hard to discount the security problems Windows has... but my feeling is that Vista is like just about every other Microsoft product... they make the Chevy of the computer world - Apple makes the BMW.

I think a more accurate way to say it is: "Vista was less well received due to the way it was sold by Microsoft".

My friends who are on the PC platform all love Vista... and I suspect it was very profitable for Microsoft even with its troubled roll out... "a colossal failure" it was not. although it ain't OSX by any measure.

the fact that 80% of windows users still use XP and the fact they ADVERTISE you can REVERT back to XP after buying Vista does, in my opinion, make it a failure. A colossal one even.

It doesn't mean its a useless OS. My dad uses it and I get by just fine on it. But in the computer world where everything moves so quickly, to release something and advertise a move BACKWARD is pretty much a failure.
post #27 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by SXT1 View Post

In Snow Leopard the Grand Central (API's) should give a better performance for multicore CPU or architectures. I just hope that this will not only benefit those with a Mac Pro running 4 or 8 cores!
Could it be that those with 'just' a Core 2 Duo (MacMini, iMac, MacBook (Pro)) won't see any impressive (<5%) speed ups ??? I'm just wondering because many apps do profit from a dual core setup, like Photoshop, FCP, games etc.

Anyone know more about this ?

I think all Intel users (with 2 cores at least) will see some worthwhile speed increases... but I think MOST increases will come AFTER developers release new versions of their apps that take true advantage of Snow Leopard. Even an 8 core Mac Pro may not see much immediate speed benefit. (But you never know, OS X does keep getting faster with each release.)
post #28 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by PACraddock View Post

I still demand to see that with my own eyes. Not everyone has a 2.4 GHz - 4GB RAM computer, and Leopard has become quite a slow beast on my 2 GHz - 1GB RAM laptop.

In general, however, 129 USD for a bunch of under the hood changes might be too high for most users.
A young girl recently asked me how she could get the Photo Booth extras her friend had. Turns out it's because she's on Tiger and the other one is on Leopard. I told her that if she wanted that and other improvements, she'd have to convince her parents to get Leopard. She's starting to use her computer, so I have no doubt that QuickLook and other Leopard features (refined Spotlight, ) would soon come in handy.
But does Apple have a way to convince that girl that she wants Snow Leopard?

I highlighted your problem. I noticed a nice pickup bumping my mini from 1GB to 2GB

I pray that SL isn't $129. Apple needs to get as many users that can run SL on it as possible. In fact

[CENTER]just give it away for FREE[/CENTER]

SL represents the crossover from aging and creaky OS X to the new hotness that takes us down a new path. Once we get critical mass in SL we all benefit from an optimized OS and developers will chase the largest group.
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post #29 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by codymr View Post

"Vista ended up a colossal failure due to the way it was sold by Microsoft"?

Really? I know it took a long time to get to consumers and some people are irritated because it does not run as advertised on their machines and it's hard to discount the security problems Windows has... but my feeling is that Vista is like just about every other Microsoft product... they make the Chevy of the computer world - Apple makes the BMW.

I think a more accurate way to say it is: "Vista was less well received due to the way it was sold by Microsoft".

My friends who are on the PC platform all love Vista... and I suspect it was very profitable for Microsoft even with its troubled roll out... "a colossal failure" it was not. although it ain't OSX by any measure.

Logically, if an OS comes out, performs poorly, sells very poorly, under-performs market expectations, and is replaced a year or two later by a 0.1 product that improves performance and largely replaces the UI, then yeah, "collosal failure" is apt.

If Vista was so great, why is the UI on Windows 7 so different now?
If Mac OS-X is so bad, why does Windows 7 copy even more of it?
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
Reply
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
Reply
post #30 of 116
I tend to think that Win7 and Snow Leopard are more alike...

Win7 is actually Win 6.1: a refinement of Vista with emphasis on speed and stability.

Snow Leopard is a refinement of Leopard with emphasis on performance.

I personally think Win7 will be a greater improvement over Vista than SLeopard will be over Leopard... (duh?)

I use (and am very pleased with) XP. In order to play GTA IV, I either had to install XP SP 3 (a trojan, no thanks) or Vista SP 1. I opted for the latter and am underwhelmed. Win7 is very exciting to me and I hope it turns out well. Good versions of Windows spurs good versions of OS X.

I wish Apple would embrace serious gaming and I wouldn't have to deal with Windows at all. =P

-Clive
My Mod: G4 Cube + Atom 330 CPU + Wiimote = Ultimate HTPC!
(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
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My Mod: G4 Cube + Atom 330 CPU + Wiimote = Ultimate HTPC!
(Might I recommend the Libertarian Party as a good compromise between the equally terrible "DnR"?)
Reply
post #31 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

ISnow Leopard is a refinement of Leopard with emphasis on performance.

I personally think Win7 will be a greater improvement over Vista than SLeopard will be over Leopard... (duh?)

-Clive


I respectfully disagree and here is why.

Snow Leopard isn't sexy for a consumer because they need a new UI or app to appreciate the differences. I don't expect some people to get excited about Snow Leopard when they couldn't even see the value of Leopard.

Snow Leopard represents a new path. While we tend to gloss over GrandCentral it is such an important technology many haven't fully absorbed the impact it will make along with kernel improvements.

Snow Leopard ushers in a new era in which compute resources are managed effectively and dynamically. GrandCentral is the cop that will smartly leverage the GPU, CPU, and another other compute resource without the developer hand holding the process.

Windows 7 is nice but has Microsoft expanded on the fundamentals of task and data management at such a low level in the OS? Apple has.

SL is the starters pistol going off for the next generation of Apple OS. Everything changes from now on.
He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
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He's a mod so he has a few extra vBulletin privileges. That doesn't mean he should stop posting or should start acting like Digital Jesus.
- SolipsismX
Reply
post #32 of 116
I wouldn't mind if Apple let the people who bought Leopard use their software coupon to upgrade to 10.6 for $79.

I would buy that in a heartbeat for my MacBook. I have been having some pretty bad problems with DMG's not working or software updates getting corrupt and Safari crashing like mad. But here's the kicker.... Leopard on my PM G5 runs like a frickin' marathon psycho. I've reinstalled 10.5 on the PM G5 once, only because I like to do a complete wipe of my graphics system once a year to keep it fresh. I am on my 4th wipe of the MacBook in the same time frame and it doesn't get the hard use that the PM G5 gets.
post #33 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post

Well, I see you have taken my rather mild criticisms of Widows 7 very personally, which is always a mistake.

To be pedantic, how does my paraphrasing of the difference between the two OS's (even if it's an inaccurate stance as you imply), indicate that I "don't know anything?" How could I even write my name if this was true?

As for the specific criticism, the poster here that said they thought Windows 7 "might even be faster" is the first I have heard from any user or reviewer that this is the case. The general consensus is that Snow Leopard, like Leopard before it, will be more stable than Windows, faster than Windows, and more secure than Windows although as you say, we don't know for sure at this stage.

I may have been overly exuberant in my general assessment, but if you intend to remain so incredibly sensitive to any kind of criticism of Windows 7, perhaps here isn't the best place to post your thoughts.

nope not sensitive to windows 7. Just thought it was funny. I didn't know you worked for apple and have used the out of beta version of leopard and winodws 7. I guess if anyone has any questions we should ask you? I am not defending or offending windows 7 or Leopard. I think both look good. I just think it is funny that a fellow apple employee like yourself is so excited to come in here and post your knowledge, or lack there of, here in this forum for us. Thanks!
post #34 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post

I use (and am very pleased with) XP. In order to play GTA IV, I either had to install XP SP 3 (a trojan, no thanks) or Vista SP 1. I opted for the latter and am underwhelmed.

-Clive

What are your qualms about SP3? I've installed it on probably 100 machines now, and almost without failure it improves performance and stability.
post #35 of 116
Seems like a lot of people here are saying Windows 7 looks promising to them and that it will push Apple to make Snow Leopard even better.

Well...where's Win7's award winning, iLife-class software suite, bundled apps like iChat, and TimeMachine backup system?

Microsoft will be selling what Vista should have been at launch. That means it's competing against Leopard, which had hundreds more useful new features and relatively few bugs considering all its new code; it also ran faster on the same hardware.

Snow Leopard will then more accurately be in a league of its own.
False comparisons do not a valid argument make.
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False comparisons do not a valid argument make.
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post #36 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon View Post

Seems like a lot of people here are saying Windows 7 looks promising to them and that it will push Apple to make Snow Leopard even better.

Well...where's Win7's award winning, iLife-class software suite, bundled apps like iChat, and TimeMachine backup system?

Microsoft will be selling what Vista should have been at launch. That means it's competing against Leopard, which had hundreds more useful new features and relatively few bugs considering all its new code; it also ran faster on the same hardware.

Snow Leopard will then more accurately be in a league of its own.

Who cares? I'm sure songsmith with eventually become built in. That's gonna be the best new addition for the future
post #37 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by elpasi View Post

Who cares? I'm sure songsmith with eventually become built in. That's gonna be the best new addition for the future

Oh yeah baby! I loves me the SongSmith!

I've tortured my fellow designers here in our art department for the last 2 weeks with the promo videos from M$ for SongSmith.
post #38 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maury Markowitz View Post

If you're going to use graphics from the Wikipedia, like the Copeland one, you have to attribute it.
How do I know the Copeland graphic is volunteer work? I made it!
When someone just rips it off it's galling, especially if it's volunteer work.
Maury

I'd like to hear what AppleInsider/Prince McLean has to say here. This is serious if true, and I don't wish to support sites that do not give credit where credit is due.

Regards.
post #39 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel0418 View Post

Nope, not sensitive to Windows 7. I just thought it was funny. I didn't know (that) you worked for Apple and (had) used the out of beta version of (Snow) Leopard and Windows 7. I guess if anyone has any questions we should ask you? I am not defending or offending Windows 7 or (Snow) Leopard. I think both look good. I just think it is funny that a fellow Apple employee like yourself is so excited to come in here and post your knowledge, or lack there of, here in this forum for us. Thanks!

Right. You are not sensitive to these issues and have nothing invested in Windows 7 but you keep posting this stuff that just reeks with smugness and anger. Somehow I have trouble believing you. Since you aren't actually making a point here other than the insults, it's a waste of time for anyone to read, let alone for me to reply to.

In regards to what we were originally talking about, (do you even care about the original argument anymore or is it just the insults now?), you may think my remarks were overly general or unwarranted but at least they have some support. You have so far given nothing to support your counter-contention that Windows 7 might actually be faster than Snow Leopard, and driven the argument off-track into "funny insult land." Bravo!

Since I like to restrict myself to only a couple of back and forths when no actual progress is being made in the argument, this will be my last post on the topic.

PS - I felt compelled to correct the spelling and capitalisation mistakes in your post and had a go at some of your more atrocious grammar, but I haven't changed your word order or meaning.
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
Reply
In Windows, a window can be a document, it can be an application, or it can be a window that contains other documents or applications. Theres just no consistency. Its just a big grab bag of monkey...
Reply
post #40 of 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by L255J View Post

I don't know about Snow Leopard...unless they actually include every single little feature they first said would come with Mac OS X.6, I probably won't buy it. However, I am interested to see how Quicktime X will turn out—whether it'll be less than atrocious (like Quicktime 7.5.5) to maybe, hopefully even comparable to VLC.

VLC cannot be compared with Quicktime, only Quicktime Player.

You can't build Final Cut or iMovie or the iWork suite on top of VLC.

All these products use Quicktime.

Quicktime = Multimedia Framework.
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