Mike Dell :"Confirmed: Apple is Outta Buisness"

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  • Reply 61 of 133
    Michael Dell is da man!
  • Reply 62 of 133
    [quote]Originally posted by rbald:

    <strong>

    2.9% market share! Some innovation!!!

    <img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>





    i share your frustration, but 2.9% of the global marketplace is hardly insignificant. innovation in and of itself doesn't guarantee marketshare. if it did, everyone would be driving a volvo instead of a ford.



    the fact is that for most people, cost is really the only determining factor. for these people, dell is great. they have no stores, no overhead, they're cheap and they even deliver.



    traditionally, apple has courted the extreme opposite end of the spectrum...those who value innovation first and consider price as a secondary factor. these people comprise the existing user base and yes, their numbers are small when weighed against the total.



    however, when you look at apple recent strategy, it's aggressively aimed not at the high end, but at the majority of consumers in the middle...those who would potentially spend a bit more if given a compelling reason to spend more. look at their recent strategy: the new apple stores, the free suite of iapps, the focus on connectivity and standardization, it's all in an effort to reach consumers in the middle and that's where apple has room to grow.



    the original imac sold 6,000,000 units worldwide in just 3 years. honda motor company has sold 7.7 million accords in the united states since 1976. think about that. in 3 years apple has sold nearly as many imac globally as honda has sold accords in the united states for the last 26 years.



    2.9% of the global market may not sound like much, but it's still a lot more than you seem to think it is. apple's doing just fine. they're making money, there is demand for their products, and now more than ever, those people in the middle are being given more reasons to consider a mac over a PC.



    [ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: koffedrnkr ]



    [ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: koffedrnkr ]</p>
  • Reply 63 of 133
    [quote]Originally posted by koffedrnkr:

    <strong>





    i share your frustration, but 2.9% of the global marketplace is hardly insignificant. innovation in and of itself doesn't guarantee marketshare. if it did, everyone would be driving a volvo instead of a ford.



    the fact is that for most people, cost is really the only determining factor. for these people, dell is great. they have no stores, no overhead, they're cheap and they even deliver.



    traditionally, apple has courted the extreme opposite end of the spectrum...those who value innovation first and consider price as a secondary factor. these people comprise the existing user base and yes, their numbers are small when weighed against the total.



    however, when you look at apple recent strategy, it's aggressively aimed not at the high end, but at the majority of consumers in the middle...those who would potentially spend a bit more if given a compelling reason to spend more. look at their recent strategy: the new apple stores, the free suite of iapps, the focus on connectivity and standardization, it's all in an effort to reach consumers in the middle and that's where apple has room to grow.



    the original imac sold 6,000,000 units worldwide in just 3 years. honda motor company has sold 7.7 million accords in the united states since 1976. think about that. in 3 years apple has sold nearly as many imac globally as honda has sold accords in the united states for the last 26 years.



    2.9% of the global market may not sound like much, but it's still a lot more than you seem to think it is. apple's doing just fine. they're making money, there is demand for their products, and now more than ever, those people in the middle are being given more reasons to consider a mac over a PC.



    [ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: koffedrnkr ]



    [ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: koffedrnkr ]</strong><hr></blockquote>



    And the great thing is, more people are coming to the Mac right now more than ever before.
  • Reply 64 of 133
    [quote]Originally posted by RyanTheGreat:

    <strong>hope nobody said it yet...



    " DUDE! YER GETTIN A DELL!" </strong><hr></blockquote>



    nope......



    DUDE! I'm gettin' a G5!
  • Reply 65 of 133
    bellebelle Posts: 1,574member
    [quote]Originally posted by Derrick 61:

    <strong>DUDE! I'm gettin' a G5!</strong><hr></blockquote>

    Dude, sometime in the summer or fall. You could get a Dell today.
  • Reply 66 of 133
    macgregormacgregor Posts: 1,434member
    Just some thoughts...



    I disagree with Belle (and Mr Dell) that 8% involved in R&D is not outlandish for any technology company. It is pretty normal and has not prevented Apple from making lots of money and having $4billion sitting in the bank.



    The comparison of Dell to MacDonald's is somewhat relevant in that the American public and now the Americanized rest of the world tend to buy whoever is #1 not who is the best. A profound flaw with the way our free market works...it works with a basically unsophisticated market.



    And since American corporate culture is a reflection of the unsophisticated consumer culture, CEO's and business mags give into the belief that numbers are more important than quality. Thus Dell's words even affect the corporate elite as much as the unwashed masses and that is particularly sad part of corporate America. The corporate elite of many other countries at least admit to the b.s. they spew.



    Still Apple needs to increase market share, not to prevent bankruptcy, but give them enough money in R&D to sustain that 8% and do even more with it. A more diverse product line with iPods and others, will require more R&D funds.
  • Reply 67 of 133
    [quote]Originally posted by Belle:

    <strong>

    Dude, sometime in the summer or fall. You could get a Dell today. </strong><hr></blockquote>



    Yes I could, but I think the G5 will be worth the wait! Besides, if I wanted a Dell, I wouldn't have bought a Mac in the first place!



    [ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: Derrick 61 ]</p>
  • Reply 68 of 133
    [quote] So what we've got is a company without prospect for growth, and this is the main reason market analysts have been so wary, and why Apple has taken the drastic step of opening stores.

    <hr></blockquote>



    Sorry, but I must disagree. Apple has excellent prospects and great potential. The company is in the best position for gaining market share since over a decade ago. OS X, the new iMac, the laptop line, all of these are strong products that may help in growing marketshare.



    OS X is drawing developers, and hopefully this will translate into consumers in a few years.



    The only dent in Apple's armor right now are their CPUs. With the G5 on the horizon, this is something that will improve in the near future. Sometime this year, hopefully.



    A recession is no time for Apple to grow, but they are putting all the pieces in place for a shotgun start into an expanding economy. One thing that many analysts aren't good at is thinking about business over the long-term. Most of these idiots who analyze stocks and businesses for a living aren't looking more than a few quarters into the future. For these sorts, Apple is a nightmare, because marketshare doesn't increase that fast. But over the next 5 years or so, it's very probably that Apple will gain marketshare.



    It sad but true, I think, that Apple might already have gained a point or two of marketshare, if it weren't for their CPU supplier. Motorola has been a relentless ball and chain for Apple, and unless Moto can deliver on the G5 soon, and at competitive clockspeeds, then Apple's future is going to remain outside of Jobs' control.



    Also, OS X's effect is going to take years. Consumers aren't going to believe Apple's word on OS X, they go by reputation, and OS X must earn a reputation before anyone will flock to it. X is garnering many positive but guarded reviews, but after a few more point updates, and increased usage by Unix geeks, X will hopefully generate a street buzz that will filter into the mainstream. When this finally happens, the flocking will begin.
  • Reply 69 of 133
    The flocking will begin!
  • Reply 70 of 133
    BTW, what is in a marketshare ?

    Apple is not present in business sales (small and large ones), no server sales, no budget PC sales (sub 800$)...

    But Apple has a significant share of education sales, creative workstations, some sci-tech, and quite something of consumer sales.



    And I'm not sure also that each and every sale is taken into account.



    [ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: VVVince ]



    [ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: VVVince ]</p>
  • Reply 71 of 133
    kidredkidred Posts: 2,402member
    [quote]Originally posted by VVVince:

    <strong>BTW, what is in a marketshare ?

    Apple is not present in bussiness sales (small and large ones), no server sales, no budget PC sales (sub 800$)...

    But Apple has a significant share of education sales, creative workstations, some ci-tech, and quite something of consumer sales.



    And I'm not sure that each and every sale is taken into account.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    Don't forget the cash registers (restaurants, etc), I read they are counted into the pc total.
  • Reply 72 of 133
    robertprobertp Posts: 139member
    [quote]Originally posted by Belle:

    <strong>Well, ignoring the rather inflamatory title of this thread, I agree with Michael Dell's comments entirely, and it's quite obvious Apple does too.



    Look at the two companies' last annual reports -



    Apple

    Net Revenue - $5363 million

    R&D costs - $430 million

    % of Net Rev. - 8%



    Dell

    Net Revenue - $31888 million

    R&D costs - $482 million

    % of Net Rev. - 1.5%



    Apple spends a frightening amount on R&D. Why do you think its pushing into bricks and mortar retail sales so hard, and constantly banging the "5 down, 95 to go" drum?</strong><hr></blockquote>
  • Reply 73 of 133
    robertprobertp Posts: 139member
    [quote]Originally posted by Belle:

    <strong>Well, ignoring the rather inflamatory title of this thread, I agree with Michael Dell's comments entirely, and it's quite obvious Apple does too.



    Look at the two companies' last annual reports -



    Apple

    Net Revenue - $5363 million

    R&D costs - $430 million

    % of Net Rev. - 8%



    Dell

    Net Revenue - $31888 million

    R&D costs - $482 million

    % of Net Rev. - 1.5%



    Apple spends a frightening amount on R&D. Why do you think its pushing into bricks and mortar retail sales so hard, and constantly banging the "5 down, 95 to go" drum?</strong><hr></blockquote>





    Just curious as to what exactly Dell spends r&d money on? They are a primary assembler oc pc's that are comprised of off the shelf hardware..none of which they build or design..also they farm out the manufacturing of there cases..so where are they spending all this r&d money? Apple designd and makes the os, the computer hardware (which comes from there r&d department and budget) and all aspects of design. So in this case Apple or anyone who is manufacturing a "turn key" item will have a higher r&d budget than someone who just assembles a buch of third party pieces and sells it as a system. Anyone agree here?
  • Reply 74 of 133
    bogiebogie Posts: 407member
    Call me silly but I still just want a link to the article.



    Anyone got it?
  • Reply 75 of 133
    blablablabla Posts: 185member
    Dell probably pay some of the cost of developing standard specification.
  • Reply 76 of 133
    majukimajuki Posts: 114member
    [quote]Originally posted by AirSluf:

    <strong>Market share is not a necessity to make money.



    Porsche has a very small market share and spends a ton on money on R&D, they are in an even smaller niche of the auto market than Apple is in the computer market. But they are an exceptionally successful company right now. They succeed because there is a large enough absolute number of people who want their machines. Over time their market share has fallen (because the total market size has grown substantially--mostly at the lower end), but the current total customer base is slightly larger than historical highs. Sound roughly familiar? Boxster/iMac? Etc???</strong><hr></blockquote>



    The car analogy is Apple's marketing bs. It would be equivalent if a Porsche were a car that could only drive on about 5% of the same roads as regular cars.
  • Reply 77 of 133
    pbg4 dudepbg4 dude Posts: 1,611member
    FYI



    For the last 3 years, Dell has been expanding into large servers and NAS (network attached storage). This is where their R&D $$'s are being spent.
  • Reply 78 of 133
    fluffyfluffy Posts: 361member
    [quote]Originally posted by Majuki:

    <strong>

    The car analogy is Apple's marketing bs. It would be equivalent if a Porsche were a car that could only drive on about 5% of the same roads as regular cars.</strong><hr></blockquote>



    A better analogy is that the PC is a Jeep and the Mac is a Porsche. The Jeep can go on all of those windy dirt roads to nowhere (crappy PC apps that nobody really uses) while both can cruise the paved roads (most mainstream apps). Like all analogies it breaks down in a few places, but saying without caveat that the Mac can only run 5% of all software includes the implicit assumption that all software is equally worthy of being used.



    [ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: Fluffy ]</p>
  • Reply 79 of 133
    bellebelle Posts: 1,574member
    [quote]Originally posted by MacGregor:

    <strong>Just some thoughts...



    I disagree with Belle (and Mr Dell) that 8% involved in R&D is not outlandish for any technology company. It is pretty normal and has not prevented Apple from making lots of money and having $4billion sitting in the bank.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    Neither Mr. Dell nor I said that 8% is too much. The point is that it is eight times as much as the leader in the field (Mr. Dell's company), and if Apple keeps producing machines like the new iMac every couple of years that require huge investments in both R&D and expensive components, then its going to have to increase revenues. It can't increase its margins (Already around 30%), so the only steps it can take is reducing costs (A step Fred Anderson said Apple is already taking - reducing overheads) and most importantly increasing its customer base.

    [quote]<strong>Still Apple needs to increase market share, not to prevent bankruptcy, but give them enough money in R&D to sustain that 8% and do even more with it. A more diverse product line with iPods and others, will require more R&D funds.</strong><hr></blockquote>

    Boing! Exactly what Michael Dell says in the quote in the original post.
  • Reply 80 of 133
    cowerdcowerd Posts: 579member
    [quote]A better analogy is that the PC is a Jeep and the Mac is a Porsche. The Jeep can go on all of those windy dirt roads to nowhere (crappy PC apps that nobody really uses) while both can cruise the paved roads (most mainstream apps). Like all analogies it breaks down in a few places, but saying without caveat that the Mac can only run 5% of all software includes the implicit assumption that all software is equally worthy of being used.<hr></blockquote>

    Its not just software. A paltry 5% market share also means that drivers for hardware don't get delivered, or come very late, as those of you who are trying to shift over to OSX should be very aware of.



    There is also the issue of the internet. Music delivery systems and streaming video don't appear to a 5% market as returns don't justify the investment [Real for OSX, Pressplay?--just the tip of the iceberg for content delivery folks]. And as MS controls the browser market and the dominant browser is IE5.5/IE6 which has MS specific tags and javascript implementation that IE5 can't match [jscript access to plugins--a big deal for SVG and Shockwave/Flash].



    It ain't just software.
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