So what was your point about restrictions being silly?
I didn't say that.
I said that as Safari allows one to access any content, forcing developers to restrict their own programs is a silly requirement on Apple's part.
That's the expanded edition.
I think they should have a mature section, or warning, and allow PARENTS to utilize their responsibilities to control what their kids do.
This isn't like going to the movies where kids are out of the control of their parents.
With their electronics, parents can tell where they're going, and what they're purchasing for these things. Too many parents are lazy, and expect others to do what they should be doing.
If a parent gives their kid an iTunes account with the credit card activated, they're giving them license to get what they want, unless they require them to show what they're getting first.
Parents have a lot of control here. They just have to be willing to exercise it, and not leave the entire thing to others they don't know.
This doesn't mean that Apple should allow XXX rated content in their store, or overly violent or racist content.
whereas the app store both considers an app with naked boobies in it "adult" and simultaneously (so far) refuses to publish it, even with the parental controls.
Apple would allow 'naked boobies' since most sea birds are in fact naked. Or is that just polite Canaidian slang for bare breasts?
(What about games with chat? I assume those are all mature, since a fellow gamer could swear? Once again, adding that additional parental control switch would solve the problem.)
Apple could even add a new rating: something like "Open-Ended Content, May Include Any Age Level of Material." Something that goes on any app that accesses the network, without the stigma of "mature."
This is how the ESRB handles multplayer games. The game has an age rating and a content description, and if it has a multiplayer component there is a disclaimer that "experience may change during online play" which is a vague way of saying the content rating doesn't stop someone from swearing into their mic or potentially getting their avatar to perform a suggestive act.
The history of the Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas "Hot Coffee" controversy may also be relevant. In that case the game was rated M but modders discovered and unlocked unused assets in the game that depicted more intense sexual behavior. The game was re-rated AO (effectively banishing it from mainstream retail) until the content was actually excised and not just unlinked from the game script.
Apple's concern is that user-generated content cannot be reviewed and rated in advance but their ultimate solution should be bringing apps under the umbrella of systemwide parental controls, so that apps may be limited to built-in, rated content or specific Internet connectivity according to parental settings.
It is the right thing for Apple to do by rating these browser-embedded apps as mature, because once you are on the web, you are everywhere. In that case, parents need to know.
Allowing these sneaky developers to route traffic to the internet from their apps is outrageous. Who knows what else will happen? A porn site can use this means as a gateway to their website.
This is the second time in a few days where I've read someone say something like "Apple is making a killing off the app store" but aren't they pretty much breaking even? I'm sure there are some profits, but nothing to justify saying they are "making a killing."....
I noticed this too.
Usually when someone opens an argument with hyperbole it means they don't actually have a good argument, and know it.
So does this mean that Apple has to put a mature rating on it's own box when it you purcase it. The phone ships with a browser (Safari) that can be used to look up sites that are not meant for the eyes of Children.
If they are going to set a standard, Apple should make it across the board and not just to developers.
Apple is being ridiculous with this entire matter.
The app I'm finishing up right now is completely G rated. But because it uses a browser view to show its online help, it is going to be mature only? And I can't give promo codes to reviewers? I worked over six months coding this app!
The use of WebKit is not the issue. The use of an open-ended webkit is. The ability of a user to go to any website within the app is the issue. And yes, Apple should have separate parental controls for webkit apps.
It seems obvious that Apple is just trying to keep developers from selling legitimate front ends to illicit content on the web. You can argue that their method is flawed, but not their intention. The biggest outcry does not come from legitimate developers; it comes from people who want to sell something that Apple does not allow. I am confident the WinMo would welcome all app store rejects with open arms. As for legitimate complains, Apple tends to get those worked out. I do not know of a legitimate app that was locked out and not eventually allowed after further review. This whole argument is a smokescreen for people who want porn apps. What app store does not have similar restrictions and concerns? Obviously, none of them have similar traffic.
So does this mean that Apple has to put a mature rating on it's own box when it you purcase it. The phone ships with a browser (Safari) that can be used to look up sites that are not meant for the eyes of Children.
If they are going to set a standard, Apple should make it across the board and not just to developers.
Apple is being ridiculous with this entire matter.
I think the difference is the world knows web browsers are open-ended, and Apple has a parental control installed to allow parents to throttle the browser is they so desire.
A lot of those folks who know web browsers are open-ended have no clue how software works and likely won't distinguish native content in an app from what is pulled into it from an open-ended browser connection. They won't accept -- well it has a browser so we can't control it. They will say Apple sold me an application for little jimmy that was secretly obscene. Some subset of those idiot parents will sue for substantial sums and there is no predicting how a judge and jury of non-technophiles will rule on that.
I liked the web-service idea above from @mstone. It is the kind of thing that could be helped along with an API wrapping the whole thing up in a statically compiled access protocol. Then any web-accessed content could only be from the compiled-in addresses and any company trying to use that to get around content rating issues could be shut down because there is direct evidence of intentional subterfuge.
This is the second time in a few days where I've read someone say something like "Apple is making a killing off the app store" but aren't they pretty much breaking even? I'm sure there are some profits, but nothing to justify saying they are "making a killing."
Apple's profits from the app store aside, I think the app store has become so large that Apple now has a responsibility to treat this approval process professionally. Provide thorough documentation for developers so approval is easier.
I mean, when you think about it, it would save Apple time and money if they gave a clear definitive guideline for developers to follow. When an app is rejected, it goes back into the approval process. So if the developer had known what not to do in the first place, time wouldn't be wasted to analyze their app a second time.
I think the problem is probably that they have the same guys running the app store as the music store. They need to get some new guys on the team, some people with more app store experience, to help iron out their model.
There is 1 thing Apple could stand to learn a lot about from Microsoft, you gotta keep the developers happy if you want to keep the apps. Programmers don't like being jerked around & they aren't afraid to take their product & go elsewhere.
App store developers are very happy. Apple revolutionized mobile app development. For those who are unhappy, I would personally like to see them go somewhere else and find I better deal. I am sick of the crap-ware on the app store.
There is 1 thing Apple could stand to learn a lot about from Microsoft, you gotta keep the developers happy if you want to keep the apps. Programmers don't like being jerked around & they aren't afraid to take their product & go elsewhere.
Apple = Responsible technology; DRM, parental controls, no cheap/misconfigured boxes, software that's actually works etc.
Microsoft = Irresponsible technology; legalised copyright theft in the eyes of a generation, lots of options though - very engrossing.
Welcome to the new age of responsible technology. If developers don't like it, they can take their insipid practices to another platform, that's to Apple's & it's customer's advantage.
I agree that Apple needs to fix the problem, but really, rating systems and controlls are so under utilized that they don't matter any how.
Do you know anyone using the V-Chip or web filtering packages on kids' PCs (content blocking, not just logging activity)? Hell when was the last time you went to an R-rated movie that wasn't stuffed with 12 and 13 year olds? When I was a young teen in the hay day of Mrs. Gore's "war on freedom of speech in music" most of my friends and I all had copies of CDs like Nine Inch Nails, and kids today are listening to lots of rap which is chalk full of crude stuff...
In short, the ratings and filtering tech is just to silence the Religion industry: NOT RELIGION AS A WHOLE, just the loud mouth groups like the Parents TV council, the 700 Club, Focus on the Family, and so on.
I really don't want to steer this thread off course, and I completely agree with previous statements in the thread that devs should be able to promo adult apps, but do the ratings effect more than 0.1% of end users?
Developers are no different from anyone else who needs to make money for a living.
While there is a percentage who are "righteous", and who will stand for some principles, whatever they may be, most just want to make a good living out of this.
For every developer who will leave developing for the iPhone because of "principles", there are a thousand others, just as good, who won't.
apple can do whatever they want to the app store developers because it is such a lucrative platform. if one of thems says "f--- you apple, i'm leaving!" 5 more will take their place to make a killing on the iphone's 40+ million users (all of which spend more than users of other mobile platforms on apps). it also helps that it is such an easy platform to develop for. "apple rejected my application, tears and sadness, that wasted 4 weeks of my time and now i'll need to spend 2 days to fix it!"
apple's strategy is to make products consumers drool over and use that leverage to maximize their profits.
this whole issue isn't really a big deal, if an application has a web browser there needs to be some way for parents to deal with it. it's even less of a big deal considering most parents don't use parental controls on most of their devices that support it because their kids are the ones they depend on to set up all their electronics.
the fact that apple disallows adult content (even if it isn't so "adult") is also a non-issue. it's apple's store and they can put whatever they want in it. if you don't like it, jailbreak it. the iphone is a much more free and open platform than anything you can get from just about any wireless carrier, at least in the US.
Comments
Apple needs to build in the ability for parents to limit what their children can download and run on their iPhones,...
They do. If you have an iPhone go to settings > general > restrictions and check the available configurations.
So what was your point about restrictions being silly?
I didn't say that.
I said that as Safari allows one to access any content, forcing developers to restrict their own programs is a silly requirement on Apple's part.
That's the expanded edition.
I think they should have a mature section, or warning, and allow PARENTS to utilize their responsibilities to control what their kids do.
This isn't like going to the movies where kids are out of the control of their parents.
With their electronics, parents can tell where they're going, and what they're purchasing for these things. Too many parents are lazy, and expect others to do what they should be doing.
If a parent gives their kid an iTunes account with the credit card activated, they're giving them license to get what they want, unless they require them to show what they're getting first.
Parents have a lot of control here. They just have to be willing to exercise it, and not leave the entire thing to others they don't know.
This doesn't mean that Apple should allow XXX rated content in their store, or overly violent or racist content.
whereas the app store both considers an app with naked boobies in it "adult" and simultaneously (so far) refuses to publish it, even with the parental controls.
Apple would allow 'naked boobies' since most sea birds are in fact naked. Or is that just polite Canaidian slang for bare breasts?
I didn't say that.
back peddling
Parents have a lot of control here.
Yes like use the settings > restrictions, which you were apparently unaware of.
(What about games with chat? I assume those are all mature, since a fellow gamer could swear? Once again, adding that additional parental control switch would solve the problem.)
Apple could even add a new rating: something like "Open-Ended Content, May Include Any Age Level of Material." Something that goes on any app that accesses the network, without the stigma of "mature."
This is how the ESRB handles multplayer games. The game has an age rating and a content description, and if it has a multiplayer component there is a disclaimer that "experience may change during online play" which is a vague way of saying the content rating doesn't stop someone from swearing into their mic or potentially getting their avatar to perform a suggestive act.
The history of the Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas "Hot Coffee" controversy may also be relevant. In that case the game was rated M but modders discovered and unlocked unused assets in the game that depicted more intense sexual behavior. The game was re-rated AO (effectively banishing it from mainstream retail) until the content was actually excised and not just unlinked from the game script.
Apple's concern is that user-generated content cannot be reviewed and rated in advance but their ultimate solution should be bringing apps under the umbrella of systemwide parental controls, so that apps may be limited to built-in, rated content or specific Internet connectivity according to parental settings.
Allowing these sneaky developers to route traffic to the internet from their apps is outrageous. Who knows what else will happen? A porn site can use this means as a gateway to their website.
It should not be allowed!
This is the second time in a few days where I've read someone say something like "Apple is making a killing off the app store" but aren't they pretty much breaking even? I'm sure there are some profits, but nothing to justify saying they are "making a killing."....
I noticed this too.
Usually when someone opens an argument with hyperbole it means they don't actually have a good argument, and know it.
back peddling
Nope. You didn't read what I said correctly.
Yes like use the settings > restrictions, which you were apparently unaware of.
I'm aware of those settings. That's why I said it;s up to the parents to exercise control.
You don't have to play the fool here, you know. You're perfectly capable of understanding what I mean.
I've heard Apple requires its approval team to read Franz Kafka's "The Castle" for inspiration.
I heard they read mad magazine
If they are going to set a standard, Apple should make it across the board and not just to developers.
Apple is being ridiculous with this entire matter.
The app I'm finishing up right now is completely G rated. But because it uses a browser view to show its online help, it is going to be mature only? And I can't give promo codes to reviewers? I worked over six months coding this app!
The use of WebKit is not the issue. The use of an open-ended webkit is. The ability of a user to go to any website within the app is the issue. And yes, Apple should have separate parental controls for webkit apps.
So does this mean that Apple has to put a mature rating on it's own box when it you purcase it. The phone ships with a browser (Safari) that can be used to look up sites that are not meant for the eyes of Children.
If they are going to set a standard, Apple should make it across the board and not just to developers.
Apple is being ridiculous with this entire matter.
I think the difference is the world knows web browsers are open-ended, and Apple has a parental control installed to allow parents to throttle the browser is they so desire.
A lot of those folks who know web browsers are open-ended have no clue how software works and likely won't distinguish native content in an app from what is pulled into it from an open-ended browser connection. They won't accept -- well it has a browser so we can't control it. They will say Apple sold me an application for little jimmy that was secretly obscene. Some subset of those idiot parents will sue for substantial sums and there is no predicting how a judge and jury of non-technophiles will rule on that.
I liked the web-service idea above from @mstone. It is the kind of thing that could be helped along with an API wrapping the whole thing up in a statically compiled access protocol. Then any web-accessed content could only be from the compiled-in addresses and any company trying to use that to get around content rating issues could be shut down because there is direct evidence of intentional subterfuge.
This is the second time in a few days where I've read someone say something like "Apple is making a killing off the app store" but aren't they pretty much breaking even? I'm sure there are some profits, but nothing to justify saying they are "making a killing."
Apple's profits from the app store aside, I think the app store has become so large that Apple now has a responsibility to treat this approval process professionally. Provide thorough documentation for developers so approval is easier.
I mean, when you think about it, it would save Apple time and money if they gave a clear definitive guideline for developers to follow. When an app is rejected, it goes back into the approval process. So if the developer had known what not to do in the first place, time wouldn't be wasted to analyze their app a second time.
I think the problem is probably that they have the same guys running the app store as the music store. They need to get some new guys on the team, some people with more app store experience, to help iron out their model.
There is 1 thing Apple could stand to learn a lot about from Microsoft, you gotta keep the developers happy if you want to keep the apps. Programmers don't like being jerked around & they aren't afraid to take their product & go elsewhere.
There is 1 thing Apple could stand to learn a lot about from Microsoft, you gotta keep the developers happy if you want to keep the apps. Programmers don't like being jerked around & they aren't afraid to take their product & go elsewhere.
Apple = Responsible technology; DRM, parental controls, no cheap/misconfigured boxes, software that's actually works etc.
Microsoft = Irresponsible technology; legalised copyright theft in the eyes of a generation, lots of options though - very engrossing.
Welcome to the new age of responsible technology. If developers don't like it, they can take their insipid practices to another platform, that's to Apple's & it's customer's advantage.
McD
Do you know anyone using the V-Chip or web filtering packages on kids' PCs (content blocking, not just logging activity)? Hell when was the last time you went to an R-rated movie that wasn't stuffed with 12 and 13 year olds? When I was a young teen in the hay day of Mrs. Gore's "war on freedom of speech in music" most of my friends and I all had copies of CDs like Nine Inch Nails, and kids today are listening to lots of rap which is chalk full of crude stuff...
In short, the ratings and filtering tech is just to silence the Religion industry: NOT RELIGION AS A WHOLE, just the loud mouth groups like the Parents TV council, the 700 Club, Focus on the Family, and so on.
I really don't want to steer this thread off course, and I completely agree with previous statements in the thread that devs should be able to promo adult apps, but do the ratings effect more than 0.1% of end users?
While there is a percentage who are "righteous", and who will stand for some principles, whatever they may be, most just want to make a good living out of this.
For every developer who will leave developing for the iPhone because of "principles", there are a thousand others, just as good, who won't.
And that's they way things work.
apple's strategy is to make products consumers drool over and use that leverage to maximize their profits.
this whole issue isn't really a big deal, if an application has a web browser there needs to be some way for parents to deal with it. it's even less of a big deal considering most parents don't use parental controls on most of their devices that support it because their kids are the ones they depend on to set up all their electronics.
the fact that apple disallows adult content (even if it isn't so "adult") is also a non-issue. it's apple's store and they can put whatever they want in it. if you don't like it, jailbreak it. the iphone is a much more free and open platform than anything you can get from just about any wireless carrier, at least in the US.