Foxconn, Quanta, Asus, etc there's not going to be bunch of a difference between any of them. Apple made their bed when they decided to contract out and even if they assembled them here, one of them would have had to make the components. All computer roads run through China.
Steve Jobs is obsessed with privacy and security; has been his whole life. It's an obsession that has put Apple at an advantage and also in high legal and public relations exposure. How convenient that Apple was able to move production offshore to a country with such a poor human rights record that it allows for employers to beat and imprison their employees, and to search their homes without legal warrant. Are we to believe that this is really the first of such abuses? I doubt it. This is beyond the pale. How about canceling that FoxConn contract and bringing those jobs home to America where workers have some rights against illegal search and seizure, against illegal imprisonment, where people are innocent until proven guilty and have a right to trial by independent parties instead of being hounded to suicide by a vindictive corporation that has already decided upon a worker's guilt? Or are American's simply too greedy for cheap iPods to tolerate having to pay for someone else to have the rights they themselves enjoy? Is owning an iPod really worth being a party to this? With U.S. unemployment in the double digits and rising we could certain use the jobs more than Apple needs its fat profits, or kids need their cheap toys.
Listen I live in NYC. How many people died while building the Empire State building? Weren't those workers exploited to an extent? Now do I ask myself " How can I enter that building knowing that?" No I don't.
As for the draconian control - it has its advantages and disadvantages- just like everything else in life. However, the advantages far outway the disadvantages when choosing Mac for your digital life. Buy the Mac, you'll see.
And justice will hopefully play out in this case.
"And justice will hopefully play out"? That seems to imply that you don't feel there is any moral issue in whether it does or doesn't. That is essentially an immoral argument made in order to rationalize the purchase of a product and support of a company in which you, in which all of us, have made ego investments. This situation, which is one of a series of recent questionable corporate actions, merely offers the most clarity and perspective, indeed illumination on the the fact that Apple is now abusing its loyal customer's support to remodel itself into a typical corporate-state profit chaser, at all costs, even human costs. This is not the company that Steve Jobs founded, and we all know it, it is not the company that "wanted to change the world," or to "build the computer for the rest of us," or to "think different." This is Goldman Sachs making iPods instead of issuing derivatives. Yes, Apple makes incredible products, and yes, they probably are still the most socially responsible computer company out there, but it is becoming clearer every day, that that is relative to such a low standard that it doesn't count for much. We should demand more. We should expect Apple to lead the way in restoring American jobs and our economy, in standing up for worker rights, in a whole host of things, just as we expect them to lead the way in research and design. Otherwise, they aren't worth the loyalty investment, since without those other things that loyalty investment merely become self-serving to the selfish immediate gratification of consumers.
Whatever. There's an investigation. And all the factories are the same. If the factory broke any laws... then Apple is responsible to take measures to fix things. But they didn't push the kid out the window.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olternaut
They might as well have. And those Foxconn bastards sure as hell did! If those are the types of people Apple insists on doing buisness with then they are accessories to murder! How the hell am I supposed to bring myself to purchase future Apple products knowing this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizwarrior
Well said. It is refreshing to see someone hold Apple accountable for such things unlike most of the people on this forum that worship at the Apple and Jobs altar!
So Apple is responsible for enforcing Chinese law? That's what the first post above says. Foxconn is not an Apple subsidiary. They are a contractor. There is a contractual arrangement between these two independent companies. If it were two US companies, and one of them violated the law, would you hold the other company accountable?
I'm not saying that Apple shouldn't work to improve things, but why is not one person pointing out the failure of the Chinese authorities for enforcing their own laws and protecting their own citizens from abuse by their employers?
Steve Jobs is obsessed with privacy and security; has been his whole life. It's an obsession that has put Apple at an advantage and also in high legal and public relations exposure. How convenient that Apple was able to move production offshore to a country with such a poor human rights record that it allows for employers to beat and imprison their employees, and to search their homes without legal warrant. Are we to believe that this is really the first of such abuses? I doubt it. This is beyond the pale. How about canceling that FoxConn contract and bringing those jobs home to America where workers have some rights against illegal search and seizure, against illegal imprisonment, where people are innocent until proven guilty and have a right to trial by independent parties instead of being hounded to suicide by a vindictive corporation that has already decided upon a worker's guilt? Or are American's simply too greedy for cheap iPods to tolerate having to pay for someone else to have the rights they themselves enjoy? Is owning an iPod really worth being a party to this? With U.S. unemployment in the double digits and rising we could certain use the jobs more than Apple needs its fat profits, or kids need their cheap toys.
"or are Americans simply too greedy..."
Just pointing out that half off all iPhones and a significant portion of Apple's overall sales are outside of the US. So the entire world is too greedy. In the grand scheme of things, Apple is only a small part of the total manufacturing in China. Until a significant portion of the entire world's production is yanked out of China, don't expect any rapid change in how things work there.
So Apple is responsible for enforcing Chinese law? That's what the first post above says. Foxconn is not an Apple subsidiary. They are a contractor. There is a contractual arrangement between these two independent companies. If it were two US companies, and one of them violated the law, would you hold the other company accountable?
I'm not saying that Apple shouldn't work to improve things, but why is not one person pointing out the failure of the Chinese authorities for enforcing their own laws and protecting their own citizens from abuse by their employers?
The comment is a Red Herring. It is irrelevant. What is relevant, beyond the simple moral issue is this... The American Foreign Corrupt Practices Act makes U.S. firms doing business overseas responsible for upholding American standards of business even when doing business overseas. If Chinese law exists, it certain should be enforced, although Apple would have no standing to make them enforce it, and no incentive to ask the Chinese to enforce it against themselves. However, Apple does have legal obligation to operate in China just as it would in the U.S. and that obligation extends to its representatives, any contractors who are doing substantive work on the part of the corporation. It is possible that the U.S. Justice Department would have just as much standing to investigate Apple's business practices in doing business in China, under the The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, as the Chinese would, under Chinese law.
The body has been cremated......already. There goes the chance for an independent autopsy. A settlement with his family? How much was the kid's life worth I wonder.....a year's worth of rice to feed the family?
They are really trying hard to sweep this one under the rug huh? Where is the justice?
Will the tablet help people forget about this? Mactouch ftw.....not.
Some cultures have strict rules on burial and how much time you have to bury someone after death
... The American Foreign Corrupt Practices Act makes U.S. firms doing business overseas responsible for upholding American standards of business even when doing business overseas..... However, Apple does have legal obligation to operate in China just as it would in the U.S. and that obligation extends to its representatives, any contractors who are doing substantive work on the part of the corporation. It is possible that the U.S. Justice Department would have just as much standing to investigate Apple's business practices in doing business in China, under the The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, as the Chinese would, under Chinese law.
You are utterly and embarrassingly clueless about the FCPA, aren't you!?
I don't own a mac. I own a 2nd gen ipod touch and a ipod nano and that's all. The music I have has been mostly bought at amazon and some old .mp3s ripped from CDs from years back.
I've been eyeing Apple for a couple years now wondering whether I should buy a mac. PC gaming keeps me from buying one and the uneasiness I feel sometimes over Apple's draconian control approach to computing.
This situation now sure as hell isn't helping.
Aw, what a shame.
So what PC maker do you use, who does not buy parts made or assembled in Chinese factories?
Mea cupla. This is either not the piece of law I was recollecting or it was not relayed to me correctly. It appears that this would only come into play if Apple had made specific payments in order for this activity to have occurred, and only if the payment had been somewhat substantial, and perhaps only if it was illegal (which it isn't clear that it is in China). Since that seems unlikely this probably does not come into play.
I stand by my position that this is an acute moral issue.
I've been eyeing Apple for a couple years now wondering whether I should buy a mac. PC gaming keeps me from buying one and the uneasiness I feel sometimes over Apple's draconian control approach to computing.
This situation now sure as hell isn't helping.
Draconian control, I am guessing you've never signed an NDA? Wow wake up buddy.
And as far as worker conditions you love the Nikes you buy that are just so comfy, it's ok those are made by an underpaid / underfed 9 year old right? Let's face it most of the things we buy as consumers are made in places and by people we do not hear about, very little is made in nice clean factories by professionals that make a good living, well GM cars mb... lol sorry couldn't resist, but that is the fact, companies want things built quickly and cheaply, not by union workers making 50 bucks an hour.
you guys are so funny. as if Foxconn was some apple-exclusive part maker. Foxconn makes everything and even your PC motherboard probably has a multitude of parts made by Foxconn.
Just wondering, what Foxconn was doing to the victim, threatening etc., was Apple doing the same to Foxconn. The suicide was about a missing iPhone prototype that suppose to be kept secret and confidential. Did Apple behind the scene tell Foxconn "don't lose these prototypes or else..." Everywhere in the world, someone is strong-arming someone.
Comments
Listen I live in NYC. How many people died while building the Empire State building? Weren't those workers exploited to an extent? Now do I ask myself " How can I enter that building knowing that?" No I don't.
As for the draconian control - it has its advantages and disadvantages- just like everything else in life. However, the advantages far outway the disadvantages when choosing Mac for your digital life. Buy the Mac, you'll see.
And justice will hopefully play out in this case.
"And justice will hopefully play out"? That seems to imply that you don't feel there is any moral issue in whether it does or doesn't. That is essentially an immoral argument made in order to rationalize the purchase of a product and support of a company in which you, in which all of us, have made ego investments. This situation, which is one of a series of recent questionable corporate actions, merely offers the most clarity and perspective, indeed illumination on the the fact that Apple is now abusing its loyal customer's support to remodel itself into a typical corporate-state profit chaser, at all costs, even human costs. This is not the company that Steve Jobs founded, and we all know it, it is not the company that "wanted to change the world," or to "build the computer for the rest of us," or to "think different." This is Goldman Sachs making iPods instead of issuing derivatives. Yes, Apple makes incredible products, and yes, they probably are still the most socially responsible computer company out there, but it is becoming clearer every day, that that is relative to such a low standard that it doesn't count for much. We should demand more. We should expect Apple to lead the way in restoring American jobs and our economy, in standing up for worker rights, in a whole host of things, just as we expect them to lead the way in research and design. Otherwise, they aren't worth the loyalty investment, since without those other things that loyalty investment merely become self-serving to the selfish immediate gratification of consumers.
Whatever. There's an investigation. And all the factories are the same. If the factory broke any laws... then Apple is responsible to take measures to fix things. But they didn't push the kid out the window.
They might as well have. And those Foxconn bastards sure as hell did! If those are the types of people Apple insists on doing buisness with then they are accessories to murder! How the hell am I supposed to bring myself to purchase future Apple products knowing this?
Well said. It is refreshing to see someone hold Apple accountable for such things unlike most of the people on this forum that worship at the Apple and Jobs altar!
So Apple is responsible for enforcing Chinese law? That's what the first post above says. Foxconn is not an Apple subsidiary. They are a contractor. There is a contractual arrangement between these two independent companies. If it were two US companies, and one of them violated the law, would you hold the other company accountable?
I'm not saying that Apple shouldn't work to improve things, but why is not one person pointing out the failure of the Chinese authorities for enforcing their own laws and protecting their own citizens from abuse by their employers?
Steve Jobs is obsessed with privacy and security; has been his whole life. It's an obsession that has put Apple at an advantage and also in high legal and public relations exposure. How convenient that Apple was able to move production offshore to a country with such a poor human rights record that it allows for employers to beat and imprison their employees, and to search their homes without legal warrant. Are we to believe that this is really the first of such abuses? I doubt it. This is beyond the pale. How about canceling that FoxConn contract and bringing those jobs home to America where workers have some rights against illegal search and seizure, against illegal imprisonment, where people are innocent until proven guilty and have a right to trial by independent parties instead of being hounded to suicide by a vindictive corporation that has already decided upon a worker's guilt? Or are American's simply too greedy for cheap iPods to tolerate having to pay for someone else to have the rights they themselves enjoy? Is owning an iPod really worth being a party to this? With U.S. unemployment in the double digits and rising we could certain use the jobs more than Apple needs its fat profits, or kids need their cheap toys.
"or are Americans simply too greedy..."
Just pointing out that half off all iPhones and a significant portion of Apple's overall sales are outside of the US. So the entire world is too greedy. In the grand scheme of things, Apple is only a small part of the total manufacturing in China. Until a significant portion of the entire world's production is yanked out of China, don't expect any rapid change in how things work there.
So Apple is responsible for enforcing Chinese law? That's what the first post above says. Foxconn is not an Apple subsidiary. They are a contractor. There is a contractual arrangement between these two independent companies. If it were two US companies, and one of them violated the law, would you hold the other company accountable?
I'm not saying that Apple shouldn't work to improve things, but why is not one person pointing out the failure of the Chinese authorities for enforcing their own laws and protecting their own citizens from abuse by their employers?
The comment is a Red Herring. It is irrelevant. What is relevant, beyond the simple moral issue is this... The American Foreign Corrupt Practices Act makes U.S. firms doing business overseas responsible for upholding American standards of business even when doing business overseas. If Chinese law exists, it certain should be enforced, although Apple would have no standing to make them enforce it, and no incentive to ask the Chinese to enforce it against themselves. However, Apple does have legal obligation to operate in China just as it would in the U.S. and that obligation extends to its representatives, any contractors who are doing substantive work on the part of the corporation. It is possible that the U.S. Justice Department would have just as much standing to investigate Apple's business practices in doing business in China, under the The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, as the Chinese would, under Chinese law.
Here is the article:
The body has been cremated......already. There goes the chance for an independent autopsy. A settlement with his family? How much was the kid's life worth I wonder.....a year's worth of rice to feed the family?
They are really trying hard to sweep this one under the rug huh? Where is the justice?
Will the tablet help people forget about this? Mactouch ftw.....not.
Some cultures have strict rules on burial and how much time you have to bury someone after death
... The American Foreign Corrupt Practices Act makes U.S. firms doing business overseas responsible for upholding American standards of business even when doing business overseas..... However, Apple does have legal obligation to operate in China just as it would in the U.S. and that obligation extends to its representatives, any contractors who are doing substantive work on the part of the corporation. It is possible that the U.S. Justice Department would have just as much standing to investigate Apple's business practices in doing business in China, under the The Foreign Corrupt Practices Act, as the Chinese would, under Chinese law.
You are utterly and embarrassingly clueless about the FCPA, aren't you!?
Here's a link to the lay-person's guide: http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/fraud/docs/dojdocb.html
I don't own a mac. I own a 2nd gen ipod touch and a ipod nano and that's all. The music I have has been mostly bought at amazon and some old .mp3s ripped from CDs from years back.
I've been eyeing Apple for a couple years now wondering whether I should buy a mac. PC gaming keeps me from buying one and the uneasiness I feel sometimes over Apple's draconian control approach to computing.
This situation now sure as hell isn't helping.
Aw, what a shame.
So what PC maker do you use, who does not buy parts made or assembled in Chinese factories?
You are utterly and embarrassingly clueless about the FCPA, aren't you!?
Here's a link to the lay-person's guide: http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/fraud/docs/dojdocb.html
Mea cupla. This is either not the piece of law I was recollecting or it was not relayed to me correctly. It appears that this would only come into play if Apple had made specific payments in order for this activity to have occurred, and only if the payment had been somewhat substantial, and perhaps only if it was illegal (which it isn't clear that it is in China). Since that seems unlikely this probably does not come into play.
I stand by my position that this is an acute moral issue.
I've been eyeing Apple for a couple years now wondering whether I should buy a mac. PC gaming keeps me from buying one and the uneasiness I feel sometimes over Apple's draconian control approach to computing.
This situation now sure as hell isn't helping.
Draconian control, I am guessing you've never signed an NDA? Wow wake up buddy.
And as far as worker conditions you love the Nikes you buy that are just so comfy, it's ok those are made by an underpaid / underfed 9 year old right? Let's face it most of the things we buy as consumers are made in places and by people we do not hear about, very little is made in nice clean factories by professionals that make a good living, well GM cars mb... lol sorry couldn't resist, but that is the fact, companies want things built quickly and cheaply, not by union workers making 50 bucks an hour.