Apple's "Cocktail" may spur whole album sales in iTunes

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  • Reply 21 of 118
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zunx View Post


    The Apple Cocktail project is for the Apple Tablet on September 2009, as "The Financial Times" reports. SO, THIS IS NOT A MERE RUMOR:



    Actually it is a rumor until something official is said. Not that I doubt the rumor as it makes sense from the standpoint of the labels. The problem is I don't see it being successful.



    The lack of success will likely be due to multiple issues. Number one is that our culture has changed massively. The labels would be fighting a mind set that doesn't put value on music or musicians the way it use to. A lot of that is due to the much freer access to information. Number two, as has been discussed for sometime already in this thread is that albums are filled with crap. We simply don't have anything currently that resembles the great bands of the past. I'm sure some simple minded music fan will argue differently but they will have a hard time convincing me. Third; playlists are in a sense Albums. User created albums but none the less albums. The build your own approach has a lot of payoff for people into a lot of listening, so of a play list is your goal why would you bother with an album with songs from one artist? The record companies need to be more creative here. Fourth; there was a perception in the past that albums (33's) offfered better quality over a single. With iTunes currently you get the same quality so why bother with expensive purchases?



    In a nut shell the Labels are demonstrating that they just don't get it. The world has changed they need to change with it.

    Quote:



    "'It's going to be fabulous for wa movies,' said one entertainment executive."



    I have to wonder if this is reference to something other than the rumored tablet. As the subject says why does everybody assume that this device is the ten inch tablet and not another model IPod Touch.



    It seems silly to assume that Apple will only have one size Touch when the device has become so popular. I can see Nano picking up some software compatibility with Touch and definetly see a market for a larger Touch device. That larger device would be about 1.5 to 2 times bigger and would be very handy still. I'm still surprised at the utter lack of rumors around the entire iPod line up. I'm expecting big changes yet nothing indicates what might be up.



    Dave
  • Reply 22 of 118
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,471member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 1337_5L4Xx0R View Post


    I just don't see how Apple's tablet is going to succeed where all other tablets have failed. Especially once we factor in Apple's pricing. An overpriced gadget with no clear niche or purpose.



    Anyone?



    Personally, I will wait to see what the new niche will be for the 'tablet' that no one else thought of will be before stating Apple will fail due to it being of no use and over priced. Your words seem very familiar ... oh yes they were used about the iPhone except you forgot to add Apple are new to that market and don't know anything about it.
  • Reply 23 of 118
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,471member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lucifuge View Post


    Long time lurker, but I had to register just to post on this thread.



    I think a lot of people are getting it completely back to front with the idea that albums are 'one great single and 9 tracks of filler'



    In my opinion the opposite is true; the 'big stupid obvious single' is usually overproduced mainstream fodder that's designed (normally on record label insistence) to have instant appeal and sell to the masses, but a few months down the line it's easy to recognise this. It may be the other songs on the album that are truly great; we might not notice them until we've heard them a few times, but will end up still listening to them in 20 years time. Yet if we hadn't been 'hooked' by the single we would never have bought the album and so would probably never have got to hear them.



    My worry is that if the album as a format disappears completely, these songs might not have the immediate appeal to sell in large numbers, and if they're not going to sell they will probably never get released.



    How very true, thank you for that. With of all of the LP's I purchased in my teen and student days, which were often few and far between due to lack of cash, I nearly always came to love tracks on LP's that were not the lead single and remember clearly the journey of exploring the other tracks over time. Some took many plays to grow on me. To be honest until I read your post I had all but forgotten those experiences and pleasures. Sitting with a girl friend and listening to the new album was such a major part of life back then. Reading the cover notes about a band looking at additional material all added to that 'magic'. I wonder too if in part this lead to the creation of the more sustained and larger than life of stars that lasted forever such as The Beatles, The Who, The Stones, Simon & Garfunkle, and so on ... today I simply don't see the super groups or stars that truly last, everything is fleeting.
  • Reply 24 of 118
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wil Maneker View Post


    Is anyone else beginning to feel that the mantra of "albums have 1 good song and 9 crappy songs" is getting old and tired?



    There are good albums that are released each week.



    About how many out of a thousand are a good album?
  • Reply 25 of 118
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post


    Welcome. Well said, and you're absolutely correct!



    Youngsters (and I mean 20-somethings on down!) may not have the long-term perspective to even understand this. Or at least not to have internalized such realizations because they've had the ability to just grab individual songs at will for several years now. There is such a Now, Now, Now mindset among kids these days, and it's unfortunate, but it's life.



    This I agree with some what though you really don't need to qualify your statements based on age. I honestly believe our culture as a whole has changed significantly since the day when an album was king.

    Quote:



    Sadly, I don't know if there's any way to go back. If one doesn't know the feeling of hearing songs that didn't appeal to you right away, but over time became your favorites (many times, over many years), then it seems unlikely that one would ever really understand the value of purchasing an entire album as opposed to one or two tracks.



    Sadly I think this is BS. It may have had some significance when albums actually had more than one good song on them but that day has long past. Frankly I don't think musicians & song writers have the intelligences and social connectedness to produce good works to fill an album. Certainly not what would be considered mainstream artist.



    Part of this is that the cult of the band has really died. Groups don't stay together long enough to develop a strong following for one. More so though is that I believe society no longer idealizes band members knowing that they really don't desreve to be put on a pedstal anymore than the next guy. I mean really how many people would want their kids to be the next Rap singer, Brittany Spears or any of the other countless fabrications. At this point all you really see in the modern day bands is greed and disfunction. People like their music but the are also aware that the industry has become a money game and has lost it's soul.

    Quote:



    Certainly this does not happen with every album! So before someone starts spouting how they know what they like right away because of this case and that case, blah blah blah, just stuff it right now. It doesn't happen every time, but it does happen very often, and with most people.



    More BS. Not so much for what you have said but what you are missing. That is very few people take time to listen to music like that anymore. There are many alternatives for the average persons entertainment dollar these days. Plus the quality isn't there anyways.



    Your point may be valid with the diminishing aficionados of music but just doesn't apply to the mass market. The mass market just doesn't want to take the time to zone out to an albums worth of music.

    Quote:



    Remember, many musical artists write a great album's worth of material, then create one catchy song that will get played on the radio to sell the album. If that's the only song you buy, then you're really missing out on what the artists have to offer or say.



    Again this is simply BS to deep to walk. First I reject completely the idea that artist are producing great albums. This simply isn't the case anymore.



    As to what the artist have to say or offer, come on man when was the last time a new album came out that had anything of value to say.

    Quote:



    All this said, I do not want to see sales restricted to album-only! I just wish people had a more thorough understanding of the psychology of music.



    The "psychology of music" that quickly sums up what your problem is. You are reading way to much into the current music industry. It's all about soulless bastards trying to screw little Jill & Joe out of as much money as possible. No other industry in America offers so little for so much these days. The industry has become the modern day analog to the hooker.





    Dave
  • Reply 26 of 118
    porchlandporchland Posts: 478member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by 1337_5L4Xx0R View Post


    I just don't see how Apple's tablet is going to succeed where all other tablets have failed. Especially once we factor in Apple's pricing. An overpriced gadget with no clear niche or purpose.



    Anyone?



    The tablets failed because they (1) were overpriced, (2) ran on a computer OS that did not translate well to a tablet, (3) did not have good touch functionality, (4) did not work well without a keyboard, and (5) we weren't ready for them yet.



    Apple's tablet will not be an attempt to improve on previous tablets; it will be the new iPod touch.
  • Reply 27 of 118
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wizard69 View Post


    It seems silly to assume that Apple will only have one size Touch when the device has become so popular. I can see Nano picking up some software compatibility with Touch and definetly see a market for a larger Touch device. That larger device would be about 1.5 to 2 times bigger and would be very handy still. I'm still surprised at the utter lack of rumors around the entire iPod line up. I'm expecting big changes yet nothing indicates what might be up.



    The rumors are there, they aren't rehashed very often. There's a rumor of a camera on the nano, and a camera and other additions to the Touch. What's really missing are photos for people to argue about whether they're fake, remember the "fatboy" and tall screen nano screen leaks? There are a small number of renderings that came with one story.
  • Reply 28 of 118
    ireality85ireality85 Posts: 316member
    So, let me get this straight- the RIAA is unhappy with the consumer trend of buying tracks individually yet as I recall they just hiked the margin up $.30 back in April to $1.29 per song. Talk about the glass half empty, jeez. If they want to spur whole album sales, they have to create way more incentive than just a free app (which many can be had for free already). Some ways to effectively generate whole album sales, IMO:



    -Whole album purchases are automatically downloaded in Apple's Lossless format, not the 256kbps "Plus" format, and of course be DRM free. I think this is a logical offering for those willing to buy an entire album. If the RIAA is looking to push albums on iTunes, this right here is the most sure fire way.



    -Lyrics for every song (and by proxy, everything from the CD booklet in .pdf format), 'nuff said, and it's about time. If I go buy the physical album, I get this, and the same should be applicable to digital downloads. Yes, some may exclaim the virtues and laud the benefits and fidelity of buying the physical album, that there needs to be a "distinction" given to the CD faithful out there. But seriously, we live in the digital age; this is 2009, not 1979. It would also help if Apple re-engineering iTunes slightly to be more accommodating for displaying album art, especially lyrics and booklet material while playing tracks.



    -Something a little more high quality than a 600x600px album art, please. People commonly use 22"+ monitors nowadays (like myself, with a 24"). Offering album art at 800x800px (the very least) or 1000x1000px would be nice.



    I think offering the above three bullets would be more than enough to stimulate whole albums sales like what the RIAA is looking for. Bundling apps just screams gimmicky; Apple and the RIAA should be focusing on providing superior quality and experience related to the music they are marketing to consumers. The problem right now is buying an album digitally does not offer the same quality, material, and experience as buying the same album in CD form. The more the RIAA bridges that gap (by doing the above, for starters), the more whole albums sales they will generate on iTunes, etc.



    My $.02
  • Reply 29 of 118
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by digitalclips View Post


    How very true, thank you for that. With of all of the LP's I purchased in my teen and student days, which were often few and far between due to lack of cash, I nearly always came to love tracks on LP's that were not the lead single and remember clearly the journey of exploring the other tracks over time.



    not to be unkind but don't you think you are living in the past here? Look around you and ask yourself how many people today lounge around trying to convince themselves that what they are listening to has value?



    That last question was carefully stated because what passes for todays albums have no value.

    Quote:

    Some took many plays to grow on me. To be honest until I read your post I had all but forgotten those experiences and pleasures. Sitting with a girl friend and listening to the new album was such a major part of life back then.



    Again living in the past if you ask me. Sitting around listening to music with a girl friend would be considered very getto today. I just don't see people experiencing life that way anymore. The problem is society has wiser up to the music industry for one and two there are a lot better things to do with your life now.

    Quote:

    Reading the cover notes about a band looking at additional material all added to that 'magic'. I wonder too if in part this lead to the creation of the more sustained and larger than life of stars that lasted forever such as The Beatles, The Who, The Stones, Simon & Garfunkle, and so on ...



    You pulled out some great names from the past there! However I believe the magic back then involved a lot more than album art. These artist where at the front lines of a revolution in many ways and had value in their music. Notably everyone of these groups earned their popularity with fans of many walks and ages.



    Contrast this with the pop teenie bopper culture that seems to be so much of the modern music seen. These are not mature worldly musicians with challeging thoughts at all. They are barely out of diapers and have nothing to offer in their music.



    The problem today is that there is little focus at all with respect to the adult market. It simply isn't the same industry as before. Consider who went to Woodstock, it wasn't a bunch of thirteen year olds.

    Quote:

    today I simply don't see the super groups or stars that truly last, everything is fleeting.



    I'd go farther and say everthing is a fraud or fabrication. For the most part people can recognize value or substance In just about anything. Except for the teenie bopper market thus all the marketing effort towards that segment. To be really successful a band needs to inspire a vastly wide age bracket than two to three years.



    The bands you mentioned above offered up a lot more than bad lyrics and bad behaviour. It's been 15 to 20 years since I've been impressed with a rock or pop group that would justify more than a glance. Frankly I've stopped listening to music the way I did, there are just more satisfying ways to spend ones time. If the music industry has no desire to develop talent and quality then this little program of Apples is doomed to failure. There is just no incentive to bias time in the direction of the music industry when it has fallen in such a disgraceful manner.







    Dave
  • Reply 30 of 118
    maestro64maestro64 Posts: 5,034member
    Just another example that the music industry does not get it.



    People are only interested in buying what they like, not all the other poorly written, composed, sung, and produced into the so called album.



    Face it people, as long as they keep sinking money into all the bad stuff they think they have to recover those cost as well as what they make off that one hit most singers/bands.groups put out today. Obviously someone at the label thinks the garbage they are putting out sounds good, otherwise, why would they continue to insist on forcing people to buy it.



    Face it itune is represent real consumer sentiments in regards to what music they like. Most companies who understand consumers and what they like and want would kill for the information they would learn from itunes sales.



    However, let not forget we are talking about the music industry.
  • Reply 31 of 118
    i still don't get why the heck lyrics are a big deal. THEY'RE ****!!!! why the hell doesn't every iTunes download already include the damn lyrics.EDIT:

    Please watch your language.
  • Reply 32 of 118
    maximaramaximara Posts: 397member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Blah64 View Post


    Welcome. Well said, and you're absolutely correct!



    Youngsters (and I mean 20-somethings on down!) may not have the long-term perspective to even understand this. Or at least not to have internalized such realizations because they've had the ability to just grab individual songs at will for several years now. There is such a Now, Now, Now mindset among kids these days, and it's unfortunate, but it's life.



    Sadly, I don't know if there's any way to go back. If one doesn't know the feeling of hearing songs that didn't appeal to you right away, but over time became your favorites (many times, over many years), then it seems unlikely that one would ever really understand the value of purchasing an entire album as opposed to one or two tracks.



    Back when album (cassettes in my day) were the only game in town I had mixed results. "One Night in Bangkok" led me to The Chess (musical) album that I found 6 songs I loved that I had never heard before.



    "Don't Pay The Ferryman" lead me to Chris De Burgh's The Getaway album and I loved every song on that one.



    "You Can Do Magic" took me to an early album by America with ''Horse with no Name'' and ''Tin Man''. Sadly the only place you can get their Last Unicorn cartoon work is through some obscure (might no longer be in print) album out of Germany.



    "Beat It" was one of the klunkers for me--only like Thriller on that album.



    Most of my "albums" are collections (80s rock, Songs in the Movies, etc). I seem to like songs by what for lack of a better term can be called one hit wonders. They get one major hit, a few near hits and go off to relative obscurity.
  • Reply 33 of 118
    lorrelorre Posts: 396member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Maestro64 View Post


    People are only interested in buying what they like, not all the other poorly written, composed, sung, and produced into the so called album.



    That only goes for all the pop-crap out there like Lady Gaga and Li'l John and Black Eyed Peas and whatnot.



    There are still REAL bands out there that bring out albums you need to listen to from start to end to fully appreciate. Alas, record labels have pushed these bands into obscurity, but thanks to the internet, they can still survive.
  • Reply 34 of 118
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    The rumors are there, they aren't rehashed very often. There's a rumor of a camera on the nano, and a camera and other additions to the Touch.



    yeah I've heard about the cameras but to me that is making a mountain out of a mole hill. The cynical side of me seems to think that it is planted info to keep us off the trail. Incan understand the camera somewhat from the marketing standpoint but can't see it as a big factor in sales.



    There seems to be little else to note. This is surprising as I expected a major refactoring to spur sales.

    Quote:

    What's really missing are photos for people to argue about whether they're fake, remember the "fatboy" and tall screen nano screen leaks? There are a small number of renderings that came with one story.



    To me the physical size of the device doesn't matter for the non Touch devices, though I'm sure they will try to spur sales with a thoughtful redesign. Personally I'm more interested in the Touch devices.



    With Touch I'd expect one model reflecting the current form factor. I'm still hoping for a larger big brother, a big screened iPod Video/Apple TV. Either way we have not heard about the internals. Will the processor be the fabled PA Semi SoC? SD card slot? I could go on but there are lots of questions that could be rumors.









    Dave
  • Reply 35 of 118
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    The "whole album" thing works well if you can make all the tracks flow together, each track can still be enjoyed on its own, but also has its flow when listened in order. There used to be albums like that, that idea seems to have fallen away for various reasons.



    I agree...it's very frustrating that you can't link songs together. For example, Jackson Browne's The Load Out and Stay should always be played together, even when your playlist is in Shuffle mode. Similarly, listening to the 2nd side of Abbey Road isw quite jarring when Golden Slumbers ends without going immediately into Carry That Weight.



    Seems like it would be a pretty easy software fix to enable tracks to always be linked to another track.
  • Reply 36 of 118
    galleygalley Posts: 971member
    It's easy; just don't buy any music made in the last 15 years.
  • Reply 37 of 118
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Lucifuge View Post


    ... the 'big stupid obvious single' is usually overproduced mainstream fodder that's designed (normally on record label insistence) to have instant appeal and sell to the masses, but a few months down the line it's easy to recognise this. It may be the other songs on the album that are truly great; we might not notice them until we've heard them a few times, but will end up still listening to them in 20 years time. Yet if we hadn't been 'hooked' by the single we would never have bought the album and so would probably never have got to hear them.

    ....



    This is the experience I have had, as well. It may sound overly romanticized, but one of the reasons I stopped "pirating" music five years ago was because my music folder was filled with too much music to listen to. You could d/l 10 albums after a few hours of poking around, but only spend 15 minutes listening to each album. If a song didn't sink in after the first chorus just skip to the next track and never return.



    So I switched to paying for, and after more carefully investing in music I made sure to take the time to actually listen to every song on the album rather than just the catchy songs. Many, many times it are the songs that I am at first least attracted to that I come back to later.



    It's just too easy to blame the big music companies when we only initially like the catchiest tracks. Part of the problem is that, to date, the music companies were just expecting (and later just hoping) that we buy the whole album instead of just the song. Now it seems that the companies are going to try to revive the value of the album, rather than be passive. I appreciate that move on their part.
  • Reply 38 of 118
    abster2coreabster2core Posts: 2,501member
    Interesting.



    The way I took it immediately after reading the article was that "Cocktail" as the name implied was not the typical hard copy of a current album with a few digital ad-ons.



    What I assumed was that is was a custom digital remaster that one could personally create, e.g., song selection(s), cover art, lyrics, artists' bios, recording history, etc., but not necessarily having to buy all the songs in the 'original' album at once. But, of course, the option to 'complete' it at will anytime in the future.



    As many of us has done, that is destroy/lose our 60's and 70's record collections, it would be nice to be able to re-create those collections. True, not every album contained only music that we would play, but the likes of Chicago, Moody Blues, etc., would often be played from beginning to end.



    No matter what, if this story is true and Jobs has a part in it, it will be different and most likely, another Apple innovation that most of us will love.



    Reminds me of the time I was sitting at a bar in the Costa del Sol and ordered a dry Martini and to "hold the olive." When the bartender returned with my drink, it came with an olive. Before I could remove it, a beautiful señorita reached over and said, "May I? I love olives," and plucked it from the glass. Needless to say, I ordered the jar of olives. It turned out I was wrong on two counts. I found out I did love olives as well, and that she was Swedish.



    Addendum re

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    …tipsters have previously confirmed that it uses a roughly 10-inch display…



    They are wrong too. The new tablet display will be the same size as my Chicago album, i.e., 12" X 12".
  • Reply 39 of 118
    lukeskymaclukeskymac Posts: 506member
    That's why I listen to Muse: Every song on every album is a great one. I don't even need to hear the previews; when The Resistance arrives I'm just going to click "Buy Album" without any fears. Besides, I hate having incomplete albums.
  • Reply 40 of 118
    lukeskymaclukeskymac Posts: 506member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RadicalxEdward View Post


    i still don't get why the heck lyrics are a big deal. THEY'RE ***!!!! why the hell doesn't every iTunes download already include the damn lyrics.



    You're absolutely right!

    +∞



    EDIT: Please don't directly quote offensive language.
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