All true, but it doesn't explain what's happening with WinMo/WinCE. MS has nothing like the dominance in the mobile space that would preclude starting over-- after all, they didn't let all the "plays for sure" devices on the market hold them back when they decided to release the Zune. And if Apple can shoehorn a variant of OS X onto a phone you would think MS could start with the NT code base and figure something out.
The iPhone was in development for how long? And MS has had how long since the primacy of the mobile space has been evident to one and all, and how long before that when it should have been evident to people paid to pay attention?
And Apple did it with far fewer resources. If MS hasn't been able to produce a credible mobile OS by now there is simply something deeply wrong with the corporate culture in Redmond. Either they think that they can take their sweet time and easily dominate once they get around to releasing something, or they simply can't figure out how to do it. Enough time has passed, even just since the release of the iPhone, that they should have had something on the market that could stand as their response to Apple.
At one point in my career I was working with Microsoft a LOT as a client. In fact, my whole job was basically dedicated to MS. The problems they're showing now are problems of corporate culture. Even if they wanted to do what Apple did with OS X I'm not sure it would ever work. There are too many layers of managers and too much politics to do it. OS X and OS X Mobile are unique creations that can really only be done under the tyrannical watch of one person or a very small group of people who have a lot of power. The bloat and confusion you see in MS products mirror exactly my experience of working with them as an organization. No matter what one group of people wants to do there I'm quite sure there's another group that vehemently disagrees with them. In the end, both of them probably settle on something in the middle. Which is why their products usually seem rather compromised.
MS is playing for time. it has to know WinMobile 6.x is a dog. it has to know the Zune still running its cousin WinCE is 2 years behind Apple's Touch. Its last hope to hold on to a significant share of the portable device market is WinMobile 7 that it is clearly struggling to get ready for 2010. WinMo 7 will probably "fuse together" the Zune and WinMo smartphone OS's to be able to share apps, like the iPhone and Touch have done since last year. Apple is really too far ahead now to catch, but Android is progressing pretty slowly and Nokia's new version Symbian platform also won't appear until next year. So MS has to be thinking it can compete effectively with them - if WinMo 7 is a much better UI than 6.x, like Windows 7 has a noticeably better UI than its first version, Vista. (as to all the "under the hood" stuff about WinMo, i have no idea what the problems are.)
so in that case, both WinMo 6.5 and the Zune HD are just holding actions, to keep the brand names alive while MS gets it together for a major product overhaul next year. nothing more.
if this were not the case, MS would just dump the Zune. as just a stand-alone PMP with no supporting ecosystem it has no future.
Let's face it, MS has a problem. It takes a lot of time and resources to build an OS from scratch.
Nokia can't do it, so they keep recycling the old Symbian and loading it up with bolted on (an English expression some here will be familiar with in the phone industry) "features" which slow the whole thing down, and make it even clumsier to use.
Google seems to be the first in a long time, along with Palm, to come up with something different.
But even there, both OS's are based on Linux. So neither company really came up with a new OS from scratch. Most of the work was done for them.
Chrome? Vaporware so far. Who knows how useful it will be, and I think it's also based on linux.
Can MS use Linux as a base? Wow! Just the thought!
I think they would have a hard time of it politically if they did.
So I think they're stuck for the next couple of years anyway. Behind the scenes, possibly they're working furiously on something entirely new. But it takes years.
Do they have that time?
I'd love to know what this years license sales are. Last year it was under projections, which were already below earlier projections. I don't remember if they hit 20 million, or if it was 18 million. I do remember that at the beginning of the year, Ballmer predicted over 20 million.
They will likely keep business customers as their main base as consumers desert the platform, but even that's down. Last year they had 22% of business, and the latest numbers say 14%.
To rebuild WM to match iPhone's OS standards, I guess another 5 years..
I think for most of the users here, this "Zune vs iPod War" doesn't matter. MS refuses to make the Zune compatible with OSX, so every Mac user is already set on the iPod or maybe something like the Archos.
It's only potential sales lost, because there's no way any Mac user is going to go back to Windows just for a Zune, even with bootcamp, I would bet.
+1. I'll bet 100 if a mac user switches to windows for a zune. I feel this is stupid and not gonna go very far.
That's possible, but I think this is more of a case of Microsoft tyring to muscle into the party when it's basically over.
The personal media player market is already saturated and iPod sales are even seen to be declining. Will Microsoft be able to buoy this mature but declining market with their second attempt? I'm thinking no.
Cheaper things come in cheaper packages and cheaper quality..
I think for most of the users here, this "Zune vs iPod War" doesn't matter. MS refuses to make the Zune compatible with OSX, so every Mac user is already set on the iPod or maybe something like the Archos.
It's only potential sales lost, because there's no way any Mac user is going to go back to Windows just for a Zune, even with bootcamp, I would bet.
Just like the Apple versus Microsoft war, only with a bit more substance and laughter on Apple's side.
You really think Mac users would purchase Zune anyway, with all that devoted brand loyality on their shoulders?
I think no matter how successful, number of Zunes sold to Mac users would be so insignificant that it just doesn't matter. Not to mention that Mac users are 5% of global computer population, so that is kind of low number to start with.
Brand loyalty in terms of an mp3 player isn't such a big thing. I own an Xbox360 and Xbox, why can't I own a Zune?
I know I've thought about it. I want a 180GB or 250GB iPod, and I don't think Apple will ever give it to me in the form of an iPod classic, so that leaves open other choices (Archos 5 is looking pretty good at the moment). Now there's no 180GB or 250GB Zune either, but if there was I wouldn't even look at it because its not compatible.
Mac users may be 5% of the global computer population, but how many of the "global computer population" are going to be purchasing personal mp3 players? All of those business-oriented computers running Windows like the one I'm using right now? No. I buy my mp3 player for the computer I use at home, my Mac.
Most Mac owners have the extra money to afford a nice mp3 player, and are willing to spend it to get whatever mp3 player they want, whether it be an iPod, Archos, Creative, etc.
I still know people who get by without an mp3 player, or maybe using a little 512 flash stick portable player. All of those people are running cheap Windows machines.
Are Macs in the majority for being consumers that buy the most (and most expensive) mp3 players? Probably not. But I would bet they're quite a bit more than 5%.
In order to have a title of an "iPod Killer" the device have to have all what iPod have and tons of other features. So far Zune doesn't even sync to Mac.
EPIC FAIL!
already ipods are being dumped for the almighty ZUNE .
I watched the new videos of the Zune HD on Engadget today and I have to say MS have done a fantastic job. The interface is *very* slick indeed, and the OLED screen is beautiful. Looking at my iPhone with it's many screens of black text on a plain white background does feel rather dated by comparison.
Competition is good, and I think MS may well have produced a better product than the iPod Touch, and at a much fairer price too. The ball is now in Apple's court.
While Microsoft might well hype the Zune?s radio, any iPhone or iPod touch can be turned into a short-wave radio, via the WunderRadio app, bringing in stations from all over the world -- 30,000 according to iTunes.
Yes but only with a stable net connection. While I'm travelling to work on the train my iPhone goes between 1 bar of GPRS and (most of the time) No Service. A proper radio would work rather better there.
Yes but only with a stable net connection. While I'm travelling to work on the train my iPhone goes between 1 bar of GPRS and (most of the time) No Service. A proper radio would work rather better there.
We can tell from the sales of the Apple product that very few people care for the radio. It doesn't seem to be a selling point for more than a few people.
Brand loyalty in terms of an mp3 player isn't such a big thing. I own an Xbox360 and Xbox, why can't I own a Zune?
I know I've thought about it. I want a 180GB or 250GB iPod, and I don't think Apple will ever give it to me in the form of an iPod classic, so that leaves open other choices (Archos 5 is looking pretty good at the moment). Now there's no 180GB or 250GB Zune either, but if there was I wouldn't even look at it because its not compatible.
Mac users may be 5% of the global computer population, but how many of the "global computer population" are going to be purchasing personal mp3 players? All of those business-oriented computers running Windows like the one I'm using right now? No. I buy my mp3 player for the computer I use at home, my Mac.
Most Mac owners have the extra money to afford a nice mp3 player, and are willing to spend it to get whatever mp3 player they want, whether it be an iPod, Archos, Creative, etc.
I still know people who get by without an mp3 player, or maybe using a little 512 flash stick portable player. All of those people are running cheap Windows machines.
Are Macs in the majority for being consumers that buy the most (and most expensive) mp3 players? Probably not. But I would bet they're quite a bit more than 5%.
Of course you can get Zune, or Zen, or... whatever. But I do believe most Mac users will not go outside of Apple's products range. For many of those who would consider non-Apple player (and then Microsoft player!), lack of syncing with iTunes would probably be another major turn-down... and since MS is software company, I doubt they would try to piggyback on iTunes like Palm did - they will try to offer their software and maybe even their own Music/Video/Appls store.
So even if Zune would work on Mac without iTunes syncing - as external drive - I really can't see it gaining any significant ground even if MS would kindly release their own media organizer for OSX.
I watched the new videos of the Zune HD on Engadget today and I have to say MS have done a fantastic job. The interface is *very* slick indeed, and the OLED screen is beautiful. Looking at my iPhone with it's many screens of black text on a plain white background does feel rather dated by comparison.
Competition is good, and I think MS may well have produced a better product than the iPod Touch, and at a much fairer price too. The ball is now in Apple's court.
This is the kind of response that mystifies me. I agree an OLED screen is nice, but what exactly what about the Zune HD makes you think of it as a "better product", when as best as we can tell it does about 10% of what the Touch does?
It's like deciding that because a set of computer satellite speakers have a really nice finish and cool looking binding posts they're "a better product" than a home theater system that you don't like the color of. It's just apples and oranges, as far as I can tell.
Wow. This is the only site I've been on that is criticizing the Zune HD so heavily. The commenters on every other site (including generally Apple-biased engadget) are praising it almost universally. In fairness, let's look a few things that it has going for it:
New features:
* Slick and responsive 3D user interface
* Innovative new features like:
* pinning favorites
* artist bio / related artists / photos
* screen saver
* OLED 16:9 screen (LCD next to OLED looks hideous)
* Playback of high definition video
* Output of high definition video via HDMI
* High performance CPU
* HD radio
* Integration of video store with Xbox 360
A few things carried over from previous models:
* "Twist" user interface (it's great if you haven't used it) makes it easy to get around
* High quality audio output (beats any iPod, hands down)
* User interface is output via video/dock cable so it can be used on a television
* FM radio
* (Likely) free firmware updates with new features for existing and prior models
A few corrections to comments made:
* Microsoft has stated that games and other applications are coming
* The device does play back HD video on the OLED screen
And a few personal criticisms of the device:
* Generally I think touch screen devices make terrible music players. The lack of track navigation and play/pause button makes them difficult (and dangerous) to use while walking/driving. And very difficult to use one-handed.
* With HD video capability, we need a 64GB or larger capacity model.
It still isn't a direct competitor to the iPod Touch, but it's going to be an amazing device in its own right. For those that are not interested in the App Store, the ZHD is going to be a compelling device.
The release of the Zune HD will mean good things for Apple users, though. The competition will force Apple to step up their game with future products, and the price point is going to mean cheaper prices on the iPod Touch in the future as well.
We can tell from the sales of the Apple product that very few people care for the radio. It doesn't seem to be a selling point for more than a few people.
I don't use a radio because I use my iPod or iPod function in my 3GS for music and not radio.. Radio signals can be poor at times too..
This is the kind of response that mystifies me. I agree an OLED screen is nice, but what exactly what about the Zune HD makes you think of it as a "better product", when as best as we can tell it does about 10% of what the Touch does?
It's like deciding that because a set of computer satellite speakers have a really nice finish and cool looking binding posts they're "a better product" than a home theater system that you don't like the color of. It's just apples and oranges, as far as I can tell.
I'll say that the Zune's design is ugly IMO and looks kinda like those cheapo MP3s. It's just a matter of personal preference IMO.
Comments
All true, but it doesn't explain what's happening with WinMo/WinCE. MS has nothing like the dominance in the mobile space that would preclude starting over-- after all, they didn't let all the "plays for sure" devices on the market hold them back when they decided to release the Zune. And if Apple can shoehorn a variant of OS X onto a phone you would think MS could start with the NT code base and figure something out.
The iPhone was in development for how long? And MS has had how long since the primacy of the mobile space has been evident to one and all, and how long before that when it should have been evident to people paid to pay attention?
And Apple did it with far fewer resources. If MS hasn't been able to produce a credible mobile OS by now there is simply something deeply wrong with the corporate culture in Redmond. Either they think that they can take their sweet time and easily dominate once they get around to releasing something, or they simply can't figure out how to do it. Enough time has passed, even just since the release of the iPhone, that they should have had something on the market that could stand as their response to Apple.
At one point in my career I was working with Microsoft a LOT as a client. In fact, my whole job was basically dedicated to MS. The problems they're showing now are problems of corporate culture. Even if they wanted to do what Apple did with OS X I'm not sure it would ever work. There are too many layers of managers and too much politics to do it. OS X and OS X Mobile are unique creations that can really only be done under the tyrannical watch of one person or a very small group of people who have a lot of power. The bloat and confusion you see in MS products mirror exactly my experience of working with them as an organization. No matter what one group of people wants to do there I'm quite sure there's another group that vehemently disagrees with them. In the end, both of them probably settle on something in the middle. Which is why their products usually seem rather compromised.
so in that case, both WinMo 6.5 and the Zune HD are just holding actions, to keep the brand names alive while MS gets it together for a major product overhaul next year. nothing more.
if this were not the case, MS would just dump the Zune. as just a stand-alone PMP with no supporting ecosystem it has no future.
Let's face it, MS has a problem. It takes a lot of time and resources to build an OS from scratch.
Nokia can't do it, so they keep recycling the old Symbian and loading it up with bolted on (an English expression some here will be familiar with in the phone industry) "features" which slow the whole thing down, and make it even clumsier to use.
Google seems to be the first in a long time, along with Palm, to come up with something different.
But even there, both OS's are based on Linux. So neither company really came up with a new OS from scratch. Most of the work was done for them.
Chrome? Vaporware so far. Who knows how useful it will be, and I think it's also based on linux.
Can MS use Linux as a base? Wow! Just the thought!
I think they would have a hard time of it politically if they did.
So I think they're stuck for the next couple of years anyway. Behind the scenes, possibly they're working furiously on something entirely new. But it takes years.
Do they have that time?
I'd love to know what this years license sales are. Last year it was under projections, which were already below earlier projections. I don't remember if they hit 20 million, or if it was 18 million. I do remember that at the beginning of the year, Ballmer predicted over 20 million.
They will likely keep business customers as their main base as consumers desert the platform, but even that's down. Last year they had 22% of business, and the latest numbers say 14%.
To rebuild WM to match iPhone's OS standards, I guess another 5 years..
And for the record, the max capacity of an iPod touch has been 32gig since gen1 touch release. Am using one to write this post and it's 18 months old
I think for most of the users here, this "Zune vs iPod War" doesn't matter. MS refuses to make the Zune compatible with OSX, so every Mac user is already set on the iPod or maybe something like the Archos.
It's only potential sales lost, because there's no way any Mac user is going to go back to Windows just for a Zune, even with bootcamp, I would bet.
+1. I'll bet 100 if a mac user switches to windows for a zune. I feel this is stupid and not gonna go very far.
EDIT: NOT GONNA GO FAR AT ALL!
That's possible, but I think this is more of a case of Microsoft tyring to muscle into the party when it's basically over.
The personal media player market is already saturated and iPod sales are even seen to be declining. Will Microsoft be able to buoy this mature but declining market with their second attempt? I'm thinking no.
Cheaper things come in cheaper packages and cheaper quality..
MS can't be that confident it will sell well if they dare not release it to the rest of the world.
Apple and MS had the same problem with backwards compatibility. Apple with Copeland, which led to NEXT, and MS with Longhorn, which led to Vista.
But Apple had the Classic OS to work for them, so that smoothed the way.
Zunes are just available in the USA.
+1. I like the fact that Apple unifies the OS, giving us a nice user experience.
I think for most of the users here, this "Zune vs iPod War" doesn't matter. MS refuses to make the Zune compatible with OSX, so every Mac user is already set on the iPod or maybe something like the Archos.
It's only potential sales lost, because there's no way any Mac user is going to go back to Windows just for a Zune, even with bootcamp, I would bet.
Just like the Apple versus Microsoft war, only with a bit more substance and laughter on Apple's side.
You really think Mac users would purchase Zune anyway, with all that devoted brand loyality on their shoulders?
I think no matter how successful, number of Zunes sold to Mac users would be so insignificant that it just doesn't matter. Not to mention that Mac users are 5% of global computer population, so that is kind of low number to start with.
Brand loyalty in terms of an mp3 player isn't such a big thing. I own an Xbox360 and Xbox, why can't I own a Zune?
I know I've thought about it. I want a 180GB or 250GB iPod, and I don't think Apple will ever give it to me in the form of an iPod classic, so that leaves open other choices (Archos 5 is looking pretty good at the moment). Now there's no 180GB or 250GB Zune either, but if there was I wouldn't even look at it because its not compatible.
Mac users may be 5% of the global computer population, but how many of the "global computer population" are going to be purchasing personal mp3 players? All of those business-oriented computers running Windows like the one I'm using right now? No. I buy my mp3 player for the computer I use at home, my Mac.
Most Mac owners have the extra money to afford a nice mp3 player, and are willing to spend it to get whatever mp3 player they want, whether it be an iPod, Archos, Creative, etc.
I still know people who get by without an mp3 player, or maybe using a little 512 flash stick portable player. All of those people are running cheap Windows machines.
Are Macs in the majority for being consumers that buy the most (and most expensive) mp3 players? Probably not. But I would bet they're quite a bit more than 5%.
In order to have a title of an "iPod Killer" the device have to have all what iPod have and tons of other features. So far Zune doesn't even sync to Mac.
EPIC FAIL!
already ipods are being dumped for the almighty ZUNE .
They may even name a street after ZUNE .
ZUNE street .
Competition is good, and I think MS may well have produced a better product than the iPod Touch, and at a much fairer price too. The ball is now in Apple's court.
While Microsoft might well hype the Zune?s radio, any iPhone or iPod touch can be turned into a short-wave radio, via the WunderRadio app, bringing in stations from all over the world -- 30,000 according to iTunes.
Yes but only with a stable net connection. While I'm travelling to work on the train my iPhone goes between 1 bar of GPRS and (most of the time) No Service. A proper radio would work rather better there.
Yes but only with a stable net connection. While I'm travelling to work on the train my iPhone goes between 1 bar of GPRS and (most of the time) No Service. A proper radio would work rather better there.
We can tell from the sales of the Apple product that very few people care for the radio. It doesn't seem to be a selling point for more than a few people.
Brand loyalty in terms of an mp3 player isn't such a big thing. I own an Xbox360 and Xbox, why can't I own a Zune?
I know I've thought about it. I want a 180GB or 250GB iPod, and I don't think Apple will ever give it to me in the form of an iPod classic, so that leaves open other choices (Archos 5 is looking pretty good at the moment). Now there's no 180GB or 250GB Zune either, but if there was I wouldn't even look at it because its not compatible.
Mac users may be 5% of the global computer population, but how many of the "global computer population" are going to be purchasing personal mp3 players? All of those business-oriented computers running Windows like the one I'm using right now? No. I buy my mp3 player for the computer I use at home, my Mac.
Most Mac owners have the extra money to afford a nice mp3 player, and are willing to spend it to get whatever mp3 player they want, whether it be an iPod, Archos, Creative, etc.
I still know people who get by without an mp3 player, or maybe using a little 512 flash stick portable player. All of those people are running cheap Windows machines.
Are Macs in the majority for being consumers that buy the most (and most expensive) mp3 players? Probably not. But I would bet they're quite a bit more than 5%.
Of course you can get Zune, or Zen, or... whatever. But I do believe most Mac users will not go outside of Apple's products range. For many of those who would consider non-Apple player (and then Microsoft player!), lack of syncing with iTunes would probably be another major turn-down... and since MS is software company, I doubt they would try to piggyback on iTunes like Palm did - they will try to offer their software and maybe even their own Music/Video/Appls store.
So even if Zune would work on Mac without iTunes syncing - as external drive - I really can't see it gaining any significant ground even if MS would kindly release their own media organizer for OSX.
Just my opinion.
I watched the new videos of the Zune HD on Engadget today and I have to say MS have done a fantastic job. The interface is *very* slick indeed, and the OLED screen is beautiful. Looking at my iPhone with it's many screens of black text on a plain white background does feel rather dated by comparison.
Competition is good, and I think MS may well have produced a better product than the iPod Touch, and at a much fairer price too. The ball is now in Apple's court.
This is the kind of response that mystifies me. I agree an OLED screen is nice, but what exactly what about the Zune HD makes you think of it as a "better product", when as best as we can tell it does about 10% of what the Touch does?
It's like deciding that because a set of computer satellite speakers have a really nice finish and cool looking binding posts they're "a better product" than a home theater system that you don't like the color of. It's just apples and oranges, as far as I can tell.
New features:
* Slick and responsive 3D user interface
* Innovative new features like:
* pinning favorites
* artist bio / related artists / photos
* screen saver
* OLED 16:9 screen (LCD next to OLED looks hideous)
* Playback of high definition video
* Output of high definition video via HDMI
* High performance CPU
* HD radio
* Integration of video store with Xbox 360
A few things carried over from previous models:
* "Twist" user interface (it's great if you haven't used it) makes it easy to get around
* High quality audio output (beats any iPod, hands down)
* User interface is output via video/dock cable so it can be used on a television
* FM radio
* (Likely) free firmware updates with new features for existing and prior models
A few corrections to comments made:
* Microsoft has stated that games and other applications are coming
* The device does play back HD video on the OLED screen
And a few personal criticisms of the device:
* Generally I think touch screen devices make terrible music players. The lack of track navigation and play/pause button makes them difficult (and dangerous) to use while walking/driving. And very difficult to use one-handed.
* With HD video capability, we need a 64GB or larger capacity model.
It still isn't a direct competitor to the iPod Touch, but it's going to be an amazing device in its own right. For those that are not interested in the App Store, the ZHD is going to be a compelling device.
The release of the Zune HD will mean good things for Apple users, though. The competition will force Apple to step up their game with future products, and the price point is going to mean cheaper prices on the iPod Touch in the future as well.
We can tell from the sales of the Apple product that very few people care for the radio. It doesn't seem to be a selling point for more than a few people.
I don't use a radio because I use my iPod or iPod function in my 3GS for music and not radio.. Radio signals can be poor at times too..
This is the kind of response that mystifies me. I agree an OLED screen is nice, but what exactly what about the Zune HD makes you think of it as a "better product", when as best as we can tell it does about 10% of what the Touch does?
It's like deciding that because a set of computer satellite speakers have a really nice finish and cool looking binding posts they're "a better product" than a home theater system that you don't like the color of. It's just apples and oranges, as far as I can tell.
I'll say that the Zune's design is ugly IMO and looks kinda like those cheapo MP3s. It's just a matter of personal preference IMO.
already ipods are being dumped for the almighty ZUNE .
They may even name a street after ZUNE .
ZUNE street .
Right. I hope you are posting this as a form of amusement and not for real.. or else you're trollin!