[quote]As for Israel occupying territory, it has been trying to give back the territory ever since it seized it in a war started by the Arabs(you conveniently forgot this point as most Europeans do). In fact for the past 8 years they have been basically offering just about all of the land back to the Palestinians in return for the right to live in safe secure borders and in peace with their Arab neighbors. <hr></blockquote>
Buahahahhahaha!
That's a good one! If that were true, Yassir Arafat would be dancing in the street.
And FYI - the 1967 war began with an attack by Israel.
[quote]Speaking of 'illegal' assasinations, aren't we trying to kill Bin Laden? The US and Britain have carried out covert assasinations for decades, The Israelis are just better at it than we are. <hr></blockquote>
I guess that makes it right
[quote]As for all the anti-Israeli talk here, the United States doesn't abandon its allies at the first sign of trouble, unlike some pussy European countries devoid of any semblance of a spine............................................. ....... <hr></blockquote>
Israel hasn't done SHITE for the U.S. Through their illegal actions and our support of such actions they get the ENTIRE MUSLIM WORLD pissed off at us.
[quote] In fact for the past 8 years they have been basically offering just about all of the land back to the Palestinians in return for the right to live in safe secure borders and in peace with their Arab neighbors. <hr></blockquote>
except for increasing buildings on the settlements, and what exactly is just about all their land, why NOT all their land??
[quote]
Speaking of 'illegal' assasinations, aren't we trying to kill Bin Laden? The US and Britain have carried out covert assasinations for decades, The Israelis are just better at it than we are. If Arafat had arrested the masterminds like he said he would they would not have been running around scot free for Israel to have to target them. I say-good for them, kill them if they can. <hr></blockquote>
Britain does not carry out hits, that's why if we catch OBL he won't get extradited to the US where he would be tried secretly and executed
[quote] As for all the anti-Israeli talk here, the United States doesn't abandon its allies at the first sign of trouble, unlike some pussy European countries devoid of any semblance of a spine<hr></blockquote>
why do we give these 'rag heads' money? Can you imagine if we didnt and just basically told the rest of the world to fvck off? Instead of 10-20mortal enemies, we would have hundreds... all even more resentful against us and the so-called "west".
By giving money, investing, we raise their standard of living and therefore make them more 'normal'. If people are well, or at least better, off, they wont be as violent and the world can trade more and be a bit more stable and, hopefully, better off.
Its a small sacrifice for the western nations, the super powers, to give a little to make everyone's life easier. Don't you think? Or do we just all want to be greedy bastards and make sure the rest of the world doesn't get anything while we gloat over how superior we are?
This doesn't mean just GIVE AWAY free money, it should mean structured funding into infrastucture, medicine, schools, etc. When we say we give 3B$ to a country, its not always a simple bank transfer. It means we have given 3B in know how, supplies, etc etc.
Egypt is a strange place. For the most part very nice, but you can feel the supposed superiority complex they have when you are in Cairo and other places. They snub you and always try and rip you off. But thats just a way of life... they do it amongst themselves as well. We buy a twinkie at 1$... they EXPECT to start at 10, and know, perfectly well, that they will get dozn to 1$ by the end. We think its because they want to play sly... its just the way they do business.
If you go further south, they are much kinder. Where there are tourists, you will see they try and get cheeky with you. Otherwise, they are extremly nice people, as are the overwhelming majority of middle-eastern 'rag heads' I have had the pleasure if knowing, especially the Iranians. Too bad they are led by an extremist bunch of religious sh!t heads, because otherwise its an incredible place.
Life would be a hell of a lot more peaceful if we just made about 1/3 of the Earth's surface glow in the dark for 100,000 years. I think most people would be happier in the long run. Good riddance to that whole plot of land, Arab, Israeli, Christian, holy, infidel, settled, occupied and whatever else. Then again, it's not the land's fault, just the people's. Yeah, a planet without people would be better off at least. Good riddance to them.
But that will not be enough to shut the mouths of those who condone terrorism as a legitimate means to an end. I hope they catch him and throw him in the general prison population somewhere. After the inmates have their fun with him they should publicly execute the SOB.
Israel hasn't done SHITE for the U.S. Through their illegal actions and our support of such actions they get the ENTIRE MUSLIM WORLD pissed off at us.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The entire Muslim world is pissed off at everyone! Bin Laden didn't bomb NY because of Israel he bombed it because Saudi Arabia picked us to fight Iraq instead of him after Iraq attacked Kuwait. He also was pissed off at us being stationed in Saudi Arabia............................................ .....
[quote] Bin Laden didn't bomb NY because of Israel he bombed it because Saudi Arabia picked us to fight Iraq instead of him after Iraq attacked Kuwait. He also was pissed off at us being stationed in Saudi Arabia............................................ ..... <hr></blockquote>
Bin Laden's motivations are nothing compared with what motivates the masses that form his resiviors of support. In that case, I place the blame on Israel. If they didn't treat the Palestineans like vermin, psychos like Bin Laden wouldn't have so many people to call on for help.
[quote]There was a war, Israel was attacked, Israel won. Whats so hard to understand about that?............................................. ..<hr></blockquote>
Expropriating land by force is a war crime.
And BTW, Israel attacked first in the 1967 war where the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Jersusalem were seized.
<strong>Bin Laden's motivations are nothing compared with what motivates the masses that form his resiviors of support. In that case, I place the blame on Israel. If they didn't treat the Palestineans like vermin, psychos like Bin Laden wouldn't have so many people to call on for help.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Is that how they are treated? Says who? And don't say Arafat.
In '67 They attacked because of massive armament build up by several major countries.
Yes they treat the Palistinians like vermin, if you read beyond the American press, but real leadership there could have worked some peacefull solution where they could have gotten some sort of economic support and worked towards betterment for their people along time ago. Arafat is an idiot and they (the people there) have been going to the dogs among them for over 20 years. They need to try other methods. Right now, Israel is completely justified in completely occupying all of pallistine and conducting house to house searches. Getting to that point is the marl of bad leadership.
The American press is anti-Israeli as is all of the European press.</strong><hr></blockquote>
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA... what a joke.
US Press is RUN by Jewish people. Want an example of how *&$!@! biased CNN and others are of Israel? Check this out. I am subscribed to CNN Breaking news email alerts. When various Palestinian leaders, etc got ASSASSINATED (or as Israel likes to say 'targeted killings' or whatever it is they like to call it) in these recent months, I never got ONE SINGLE ALERT. When a few weeks ago one of the members of the israeli government got killed (minister of tourism I believe), I got FOUR breaking news emails in 10 minutes. I barely go that many when the frikken WTC was hit!!!!
What? a Palestinian just got massacred in the streets? Who cares. One Israeli dies, bloody hell, we must tell EVERYONE. WTF is that all about? Are they all of a sudden better?
Also, if you want litterature, read Gassan Kanafani. He wrote poems and stories that he witnessed in the fifties and sixties of Israeli soliders and militia going into small towns and simply raping, mutilating, torturing, and murdering entire small towns that were comprised of a few families. Then come and tell me that its the Palestians who are the animals. Its Palestinian land. Israel, and this is also backed by the UN, invaded and is effectively OCCUPYING the territory. Do you get that? Do you understand the fact that all of a sudden your homeland gets OCCUPIED and no one in the world gives a damn? What can you do? You, unfortunately, have to start using terrorism and the such because no one will give a damn otherwise. Its horrible thing to do, but its our damn fault if we are so selfish and only pay attention to others in difficulty once its either to far or too late.
Its a horrible situation from either side, Israeli or Palestinian, but I have to express my OWN opinion, its Israel that is wrong in this whole affair. And the US just keeps plugging them up with all the latest weapons and technology... no wonder Palestians have to resort to terrorism... they don't have Cobra or Apache helicopters, nor tanks or F-16 fighters. They have rocks and machine guns and a few rpgs at most.
Mr Sharon, a pro-war fascist if I ever saw one, wants war and IS THE CAUSE of the breakdown of the balance that was working out for the last few years. He BLATENTLY knew that visiting that Mosque (sorry, forgot the name) last Summer would have infuriated the Palestinian population, and what did he do? Went anyway. The government collapsed a few weeks later and, of surprise, Mr Sharon gets to head the government.
OK... sorry for the rant, but this whole middle-east thing has been driving me nuts for years and while one moment I sympathize for Israel, the next its with the Palestians... and sometimes I just say 'the hell with it all'.
Gentlefolk, why are you choosing sides and laying blame?
An end to the violence is wholly attainable by either side. They don't want to let go of the past.
Some questions to ponder:
Do the Palistinians just want their land?
Does "their land" equate to all of Israel?
Does Israel want to live in peace?
Is Israel satisfied with the land they have now?
Do the surrounding Islamic countries want to live in peace with Israel?
Can Muslims control their fanatics?
Can Jews control their fanatics?
The answers to these questions are dissapointing. I am however more confident that Israel can say yes. Taking sides on who's right in a half century old conflict won't help anything. They are on their 3rd generation of hate and don't care about reasons for hating each other anymore.
Comments
Buahahahhahaha!
That's a good one! If that were true, Yassir Arafat would be dancing in the street.
And FYI - the 1967 war began with an attack by Israel.
[quote]Speaking of 'illegal' assasinations, aren't we trying to kill Bin Laden? The US and Britain have carried out covert assasinations for decades, The Israelis are just better at it than we are. <hr></blockquote>
I guess that makes it right
[quote]As for all the anti-Israeli talk here, the United States doesn't abandon its allies at the first sign of trouble, unlike some pussy European countries devoid of any semblance of a spine............................................. ....... <hr></blockquote>
Israel hasn't done SHITE for the U.S. Through their illegal actions and our support of such actions they get the ENTIRE MUSLIM WORLD pissed off at us.
except for increasing buildings on the settlements, and what exactly is just about all their land, why NOT all their land??
[quote]
Speaking of 'illegal' assasinations, aren't we trying to kill Bin Laden? The US and Britain have carried out covert assasinations for decades, The Israelis are just better at it than we are. If Arafat had arrested the masterminds like he said he would they would not have been running around scot free for Israel to have to target them. I say-good for them, kill them if they can. <hr></blockquote>
Britain does not carry out hits, that's why if we catch OBL he won't get extradited to the US where he would be tried secretly and executed
[quote] As for all the anti-Israeli talk here, the United States doesn't abandon its allies at the first sign of trouble, unlike some pussy European countries devoid of any semblance of a spine<hr></blockquote>
who are you on about there?
By giving money, investing, we raise their standard of living and therefore make them more 'normal'. If people are well, or at least better, off, they wont be as violent and the world can trade more and be a bit more stable and, hopefully, better off.
Its a small sacrifice for the western nations, the super powers, to give a little to make everyone's life easier. Don't you think? Or do we just all want to be greedy bastards and make sure the rest of the world doesn't get anything while we gloat over how superior we are?
This doesn't mean just GIVE AWAY free money, it should mean structured funding into infrastucture, medicine, schools, etc. When we say we give 3B$ to a country, its not always a simple bank transfer. It means we have given 3B in know how, supplies, etc etc.
Egypt is a strange place. For the most part very nice, but you can feel the supposed superiority complex they have when you are in Cairo and other places. They snub you and always try and rip you off. But thats just a way of life... they do it amongst themselves as well. We buy a twinkie at 1$... they EXPECT to start at 10, and know, perfectly well, that they will get dozn to 1$ by the end. We think its because they want to play sly... its just the way they do business.
If you go further south, they are much kinder. Where there are tourists, you will see they try and get cheeky with you. Otherwise, they are extremly nice people, as are the overwhelming majority of middle-eastern 'rag heads' I have had the pleasure if knowing, especially the Iranians. Too bad they are led by an extremist bunch of religious sh!t heads, because otherwise its an incredible place.
Peace everyone... peace.
<strong>
Buahahahhahaha!
That's a good one! If that were true, Yassir Arafat would be dancing in the street.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well they did and he's not so what does that tell us?
<strong>
Well they did and he's not so what does that tell us?</strong><hr></blockquote>
He needs to take dancing lessons? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
<strong>
He needs to take dancing lessons? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
ROFL LOL BWAAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
oh... this is just classic...
<a href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20011213/us/afghan_bin_laden_tape_6.html"; target="_blank">http://dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20011213/us/afghan_bin_laden_tape_6.html</a>;
But that will not be enough to shut the mouths of those who condone terrorism as a legitimate means to an end. I hope they catch him and throw him in the general prison population somewhere. After the inmates have their fun with him they should publicly execute the SOB.
<a href="http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011213/us/bin_laden_tape_text_2.html"; target="_blank">http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20011213/us/bin_laden_tape_text_2.html</a>;
Bastard!
<a href="http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2001/d20011213ubl.pdf"; target="_blank">http://www.defenselink.mil/news/Dec2001/d20011213ubl.pdf</a>;
<strong>
Israel hasn't done SHITE for the U.S. Through their illegal actions and our support of such actions they get the ENTIRE MUSLIM WORLD pissed off at us.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The entire Muslim world is pissed off at everyone! Bin Laden didn't bomb NY because of Israel he bombed it because Saudi Arabia picked us to fight Iraq instead of him after Iraq attacked Kuwait. He also was pissed off at us being stationed in Saudi Arabia............................................ .....
Get back to me when The United States gives California, Texas, and Florida back to Mexico.
There was a war, Israel was attacked, Israel won. Whats so hard to understand about that?............................................. ..
As for my crack about Europe, I referred to every country except Britain...................................
[QB]Get back to me when The United States gives California, Texas, and Florida back to Mexico./QB]<hr></blockquote>
I agree with you, but Mexico never owned Florida. We bought it from Spain.
Incidentally, we did give Britain billions of dollars in foreign aid, during the Marshall Plan, as with most Western and Southern European nations.
Bin Laden's motivations are nothing compared with what motivates the masses that form his resiviors of support. In that case, I place the blame on Israel. If they didn't treat the Palestineans like vermin, psychos like Bin Laden wouldn't have so many people to call on for help.
[quote]There was a war, Israel was attacked, Israel won. Whats so hard to understand about that?............................................. ..<hr></blockquote>
Expropriating land by force is a war crime.
And BTW, Israel attacked first in the 1967 war where the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Jersusalem were seized.
[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: DoctorGonzo ]</p>
<strong>Bin Laden's motivations are nothing compared with what motivates the masses that form his resiviors of support. In that case, I place the blame on Israel. If they didn't treat the Palestineans like vermin, psychos like Bin Laden wouldn't have so many people to call on for help.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Is that how they are treated? Says who? And don't say Arafat.
Yes they treat the Palistinians like vermin, if you read beyond the American press, but real leadership there could have worked some peacefull solution where they could have gotten some sort of economic support and worked towards betterment for their people along time ago. Arafat is an idiot and they (the people there) have been going to the dogs among them for over 20 years. They need to try other methods. Right now, Israel is completely justified in completely occupying all of pallistine and conducting house to house searches. Getting to that point is the marl of bad leadership.
[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
<strong>In '67 They attacked because of massive armament build up by several major countries.
Yes they treat the Palistinians like vermin, if you read beyond the American press</strong><hr></blockquote>
The American press is anti-Israeli as is all of the European press.
<strong>
The American press is anti-Israeli as is all of the European press.</strong><hr></blockquote>
HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA... what a joke.
US Press is RUN by Jewish people. Want an example of how *&$!@! biased CNN and others are of Israel? Check this out. I am subscribed to CNN Breaking news email alerts. When various Palestinian leaders, etc got ASSASSINATED (or as Israel likes to say 'targeted killings' or whatever it is they like to call it) in these recent months, I never got ONE SINGLE ALERT. When a few weeks ago one of the members of the israeli government got killed (minister of tourism I believe), I got FOUR breaking news emails in 10 minutes. I barely go that many when the frikken WTC was hit!!!!
What? a Palestinian just got massacred in the streets? Who cares. One Israeli dies, bloody hell, we must tell EVERYONE. WTF is that all about? Are they all of a sudden better?
Also, if you want litterature, read Gassan Kanafani. He wrote poems and stories that he witnessed in the fifties and sixties of Israeli soliders and militia going into small towns and simply raping, mutilating, torturing, and murdering entire small towns that were comprised of a few families. Then come and tell me that its the Palestians who are the animals. Its Palestinian land. Israel, and this is also backed by the UN, invaded and is effectively OCCUPYING the territory. Do you get that? Do you understand the fact that all of a sudden your homeland gets OCCUPIED and no one in the world gives a damn? What can you do? You, unfortunately, have to start using terrorism and the such because no one will give a damn otherwise. Its horrible thing to do, but its our damn fault if we are so selfish and only pay attention to others in difficulty once its either to far or too late.
Its a horrible situation from either side, Israeli or Palestinian, but I have to express my OWN opinion, its Israel that is wrong in this whole affair. And the US just keeps plugging them up with all the latest weapons and technology... no wonder Palestians have to resort to terrorism... they don't have Cobra or Apache helicopters, nor tanks or F-16 fighters. They have rocks and machine guns and a few rpgs at most.
Mr Sharon, a pro-war fascist if I ever saw one, wants war and IS THE CAUSE of the breakdown of the balance that was working out for the last few years. He BLATENTLY knew that visiting that Mosque (sorry, forgot the name) last Summer would have infuriated the Palestinian population, and what did he do? Went anyway. The government collapsed a few weeks later and, of surprise, Mr Sharon gets to head the government.
OK... sorry for the rant, but this whole middle-east thing has been driving me nuts for years and while one moment I sympathize for Israel, the next its with the Palestians... and sometimes I just say 'the hell with it all'.
Gentlefolk, why are you choosing sides and laying blame?
An end to the violence is wholly attainable by either side. They don't want to let go of the past.
Some questions to ponder:
Do the Palistinians just want their land?
Does "their land" equate to all of Israel?
Does Israel want to live in peace?
Is Israel satisfied with the land they have now?
Do the surrounding Islamic countries want to live in peace with Israel?
Can Muslims control their fanatics?
Can Jews control their fanatics?
The answers to these questions are dissapointing. I am however more confident that Israel can say yes. Taking sides on who's right in a half century old conflict won't help anything. They are on their 3rd generation of hate and don't care about reasons for hating each other anymore.
[ 12-14-2001: Message edited by: THT ]</p>