<strong>I'm for it but only for the most severest of crimes such as serial murder and murder/rape. Rotting in prison for life is pretty harsh too.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's if the prisons can fit anymore tenants. They are too overcrowded. And be that a prison sentence isn't a pleasure cruise, most of the harshest offenders still get "three hots and a cot" and other privileges, whereas if their crime was severe enough (IMO) they should be removed from society permanently.
Again, it seem to be religion that argues it with it's "Thou shalt not kill"...err, isn't that what the murderers should contemplate before they kill and kill again?
This also isn't "An eye for an eye" thing either. You kill another human being and will not accept your actions or rehabilitate yourself after release then why should one like you live?
i-like the vast majority of people from my particular corner of this rather vast country- am opposed to executions. there is however merit in having the death penalty be legal, if there are never death penalty sentences (decreases frequency of appeals. which some might argue is a bad thing. but it certainly saves money.)
but it really really is high time the us banned the death penalty, if only for diplomatic reasons. it's pathetic that americans think europeans are stupid for banning it and desiring that we ban it as well, when instead this could be taken advantage of. we could gain a lot of face by taking our heads out of our asses and for once doing something which another nation wants, rather than insisting on being "independently powerful" and stupid. but that's not likely to happen with the kind of religious zealotry that plagues this country these days. gosh, religion wouldn't be so bad if people weren't so stupid about following it!
that a majority of people would believe the death penalty is good in a country where a majority of people believe that a book which tells them not to kill is holy... what a country
Maybe we should freeze them and store them until the prisons thin out. Then we can thaw them and have them live out their sentence. Even though it might be 50 years after the crime...
One reason is that when it comes down to anything in this world, you get what you pay for, and justice is no exception. You can be 100% guilty and get off even if you are in a minority group, given the financial resources. It is more than likely that innocent people have been put to death in the past, and one executed innocent person is too many; it drags the state down to the level of murderer. Execution by the state is a killing as cold-blooded and pre-meditated as any. Statistically it has never been proved to be a deterrent (althought statistics can tell you anything). Also, it is not applied evenhandedly regarding race or economic standing:
I feel that anyone found guilty of a currently 'capital offense' should get a life sentence. That is, a real life sentence, until the day he dies. The average 8 year stretch is a sick joke.
And, why do we kill people to show people that killing people is wrong?
I don't support it, but in some cases I can't get worked up about it. If you tie an innocent man to the back of your pickup and drag him to death, or beat a 120 lb teenager sensless, lash him to a fence and leave him to die, if you face the death sentence somehow I cannot bring myself to weep at your plight.
The one that really changed it for me was a case several years ago. A man in Chicago decided with his new girlfriend to get the unborn baby his old girlfriend was carrying. So they kidnapped the poor woman and butchered her. Cut the unborn child out of her living flesh. I think that, frankly, if they were so evil that they could think out, plot and execute a crime so mind-boggling in it's inhumanity, and so stupid that they could not have travelled 40 minutes to Wisconsin (no death penalty) to do it, then I can't get terribly upset at the idea that they might ride the lightning.
And I have been accused of being a knee-jerk liberal in another thread...
<strong>The one that really changed it for me was a case several years ago. A man in Chicago decided with his new girlfriend to get the unborn baby his old girlfriend was carrying. So they kidnapped the poor woman and butchered her. Cut the unborn child out of her living flesh.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I remember that. If I remember they used car keys to cut it out. It must be false because how could that even work? The baby lived. The older kids were killed too. The was no doubt about the guilty of the people involved.
[quote]it's pathetic that americans think europeans are stupid for banning it and desiring that we ban it as well, when instead this could be taken advantage of. we could gain a lot of face by taking our heads out of our asses and for once doing something which another nation wants<hr></blockquote>
Frankly this is just plain wrong. I do not think Europeans are stupid for banning it. They have there own countries with their own laws. But the thought of banning the death penalty here just becuase some people across the pond want us to is frankly backwards. Maybe you havent noticed (or maybe you have) but America, its citizens, and their rightfull elected officals will do what they think is best for this country. We are citizens, and we need to make that choice for ourselves. And not be influnced by the illinformed outcry from many miles away. They do not see what I see, they do not see the injustices that I whitness everyday against my fellow human.
When I become older I want to live safely in my home. With children that can play in the neighborhood with little fear. A place where I dont have to worry whether everything I have built will be swepted away by the actions of a mad-man. If you cant understand that, then no explanations from me will convince you.
Anyway im tired have the last of my finals tomorrow and should get some sleep.
I am 100% in favor of it...in fact it could be used a little more* IMHO.
*For people who choose to use Windows (excluding those who are forced to through work 'cause you can;t balme a man for tryin' to make a living). I would start with the public execution of the Dell kid.**
**Of course don;t take this seriously...it is 100% a joke. Windows users can be imprisioned for their lives and forced to look at "blue screens of death" for the rst of their lives.
lol, reminds me of a cartoon i saw years ago. a man was about to be hung, and he turns to his executioner and says "studies have shown that the death penalty doesn't do anything to deter crime"
to which the executioner replied "i'll believe that next time i see you here"
Let's get right down to it... In general terms Liberals / Democrats are more often ANTI death penalty while Conservitives / Rebublicans are more often PRO death penalty. (generally speaking)
I just find it so odd that a those same people who are ANTI death penalty are ALL FOR the killing of unborn children. It sure is a strange world we live in...
Save the killers and Kill the babies... No wonder we are where we are.
<strong>I just find it so odd that a those same people who are ANTI death penalty are ALL FOR the killing of unborn children.</strong><hr></blockquote>Although some people are against the death penalty for moral reasons, many liberals are against it because we may be killing the wrong guys, not that we may be killing bad guys. It's more of a lack of trust in the gov't and the criminal justice system than being against killing killers. Many of the folks with moral reasons against the death penalty are the religious conservatives rather than liberals.
To me, it's odd that conservatives, who supposedly want reduced government, are in favor of the gov't killing people, and in favor of gov't regulation of reproduction. That sounds like pretty big gov't to me.
You are ignorant. (I love saying that to Europeans.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
*LoL* As someone with a European (sometimes know-it-all) brother-in-law, that was funny. Thanks Scott. I needed that.
In geneal I would like to make three assertions:
1. Nobody here has any idea what percentage of Americans supports the death penalty.
2. Like Scott, I support it but only in certain circumstances.
3. People in this community of ours (AI) need to be more careful when naming their threads. In recent memory we have
"Boycott the Salvation Army" - which, it turns out, is not entirely what the poster wanted, but rather to "see what we thought" (rather like:
"Do All Americans support death-penalty?"
Yah, all 380-some million of us. It's unanimous.
and then there was
"Why are All Americans so Stupid?"
and
"What are All Americans so Fat?"
Can we at least phrase the questions a little more intelligently so as to avoid the inevitable "how can you possibly say we're ALL _______ , you moron?" type debates that follow?
<strong>Although some people are against the death penalty for moral reasons, many liberals are against it because we may be killing the wrong guys, not that we may be killing bad guys. It's more of a lack of trust in the gov't and the criminal justice system than being against killing killers. Many of the folks with moral reasons against the death penalty are the religious conservatives rather than liberals.
To me, it's odd that conservatives, who supposedly want reduced government, are in favor of the gov't killing people, and in favor of gov't regulation of reproduction. That sounds like pretty big gov't to me.
:eek: </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm what you'd call a Civil Libertarian.... I'm pro-choice and pro-death (try and figure that one out) and I strongly follow Jeffersonian ways; i.e. FedGov would have minimal powers and size, and respects the rights of people to choose for themselves. A government that governs least, governs best. The federal Government should do little more (very little) than defend the country / borders. States would hold the power.
I'm also what you'd consider a fiscial consertive... Please don't tell (force) me how and where I need to spend/donate/throw-away my hard earned money... I can take care of it myself thank you very much.
It's not easy being me in a world of Dems and GOPers... But when it comes down to it I have to admit I usually land on the GOP side of the fence far more often then the Dem side.
<strong>Although some people are against the death penalty for moral reasons, many liberals are against it because we may be killing the wrong guys, not that we may be killing bad guys. It's more of a lack of trust in the gov't and the criminal justice system than being against killing killers. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Really? Seems to me that you could pass a law that requires DNA evidence when applying the death penalty and then there's be no controversy from you guys. Yeah, that ain't so.
<strong>i-like the vast majority of people from my particular corner of this rather vast country- am opposed to executions. there is however merit in having the death penalty be legal, if there are never death penalty sentences (decreases frequency of appeals. which some might argue is a bad thing. but it certainly saves money.)
but it really really is high time the us banned the death penalty, if only for diplomatic reasons. it's pathetic that americans think europeans are stupid for banning it and desiring that we ban it as well, when instead this could be taken advantage of. we could gain a lot of face by taking our heads out of our asses and for once doing something which another nation wants, rather than insisting on being "independently powerful" and stupid. but that's not likely to happen with the kind of religious zealotry that plagues this country these days. gosh, religion wouldn't be so bad if people weren't so stupid about following it!
that a majority of people would believe the death penalty is good in a country where a majority of people believe that a book which tells them not to kill is holy... what a country </strong><hr></blockquote>
What a confused jumble of tidbits that was. What kind of flowers you sniffing over there Flowerbob?
You are against the death penalty, but you are for having it legal, but against ??? I lost you there. And then you jump to completely banning it like the UK. Does it have merit or not?
Ans as for tryin got gain face by giving up due to pressure from other countries. As my mother used to say, "Just because he jumped off a bridge does not mean you have to as well." If Europe want to have no death penalty fine, I don't live in Europe so I have no say in that, I live here and I say the death penalty should stay.
Gosh, your post wouldn't have been so bad if you weren't so muddled about posting it.
And for that last quote, Thou shalt not kill has to do with you personally. When you break that law the punishment is up to those in authority over you to determine. Not up to you or me. Those in authority say that certain crimes are punishable by death, so death is the punishment.
Wow, that was hard. Anyone here speak "flowerbob"?
[quote]I just find it so odd that a those same people who are ANTI death penalty are ALL FOR the killing of unborn children. It sure is a strange world we live in...<hr></blockquote>
Sad, but true. Of course, 62.4 million Catholics can't be wrong
from the catechism of the catholic church (p.2267):
[quote]...'Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.'<hr></blockquote>
from p.2271:
[quote]"Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish. God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: Abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.<hr></blockquote>
<strong>Really? Seems to me that you could pass a law that requires DNA evidence when applying the death penalty and then there's be no controversy from you guys. Yeah, that ain't so.</strong><hr></blockquote>I believe a lot of the recent decline in support of execution is due to the DNA releases of innocents. So, yes, I do think a law that required DNA proof before execution would go a long way towards making it more acceptable. It would do it for me. For those who are opposed for moral reasons, like yourself, probably not.
Of course, if DNA proof was required, there would be almost no executions.
What is the purpose of killing someone who poses a clear and imminent danger to society?
Not revenge.
Self Preservation.
But...
Death is too good for them, don't you think? I'd like to see a way to let the killer experience the same terror and feeling of what it is like to be killed. Over and over.
Comments
I was also trying to point out how different our current political climates are... not attacking you personally...
<strong>I'm for it but only for the most severest of crimes such as serial murder and murder/rape. Rotting in prison for life is pretty harsh too.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's if the prisons can fit anymore tenants. They are too overcrowded. And be that a prison sentence isn't a pleasure cruise, most of the harshest offenders still get "three hots and a cot" and other privileges, whereas if their crime was severe enough (IMO) they should be removed from society permanently.
Again, it seem to be religion that argues it with it's "Thou shalt not kill"...err, isn't that what the murderers should contemplate before they kill and kill again?
This also isn't "An eye for an eye" thing either. You kill another human being and will not accept your actions or rehabilitate yourself after release then why should one like you live?
but it really really is high time the us banned the death penalty, if only for diplomatic reasons. it's pathetic that americans think europeans are stupid for banning it and desiring that we ban it as well, when instead this could be taken advantage of. we could gain a lot of face by taking our heads out of our asses and for once doing something which another nation wants, rather than insisting on being "independently powerful" and stupid. but that's not likely to happen with the kind of religious zealotry that plagues this country these days. gosh, religion wouldn't be so bad if people weren't so stupid about following it!
that a majority of people would believe the death penalty is good in a country where a majority of people believe that a book which tells them not to kill is holy... what a country
One reason is that when it comes down to anything in this world, you get what you pay for, and justice is no exception. You can be 100% guilty and get off even if you are in a minority group, given the financial resources. It is more than likely that innocent people have been put to death in the past, and one executed innocent person is too many; it drags the state down to the level of murderer. Execution by the state is a killing as cold-blooded and pre-meditated as any. Statistically it has never been proved to be a deterrent (althought statistics can tell you anything). Also, it is not applied evenhandedly regarding race or economic standing:
<a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/dunham1.html"; target="_blank">http://www.counterpunch.org/dunham1.html</a>;
I feel that anyone found guilty of a currently 'capital offense' should get a life sentence. That is, a real life sentence, until the day he dies. The average 8 year stretch is a sick joke.
And, why do we kill people to show people that killing people is wrong?
[ 12-18-2001: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
The one that really changed it for me was a case several years ago. A man in Chicago decided with his new girlfriend to get the unborn baby his old girlfriend was carrying. So they kidnapped the poor woman and butchered her. Cut the unborn child out of her living flesh. I think that, frankly, if they were so evil that they could think out, plot and execute a crime so mind-boggling in it's inhumanity, and so stupid that they could not have travelled 40 minutes to Wisconsin (no death penalty) to do it, then I can't get terribly upset at the idea that they might ride the lightning.
And I have been accused of being a knee-jerk liberal in another thread...
<strong>The one that really changed it for me was a case several years ago. A man in Chicago decided with his new girlfriend to get the unborn baby his old girlfriend was carrying. So they kidnapped the poor woman and butchered her. Cut the unborn child out of her living flesh.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I remember that. If I remember they used car keys to cut it out. It must be false because how could that even work? The baby lived. The older kids were killed too. The was no doubt about the guilty of the people involved.
Frankly this is just plain wrong. I do not think Europeans are stupid for banning it. They have there own countries with their own laws. But the thought of banning the death penalty here just becuase some people across the pond want us to is frankly backwards. Maybe you havent noticed (or maybe you have) but America, its citizens, and their rightfull elected officals will do what they think is best for this country. We are citizens, and we need to make that choice for ourselves. And not be influnced by the illinformed outcry from many miles away. They do not see what I see, they do not see the injustices that I whitness everyday against my fellow human.
When I become older I want to live safely in my home. With children that can play in the neighborhood with little fear. A place where I dont have to worry whether everything I have built will be swepted away by the actions of a mad-man. If you cant understand that, then no explanations from me will convince you.
Anyway im tired have the last of my finals tomorrow and should get some sleep.
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Falcon ]</p>
*For people who choose to use Windows (excluding those who are forced to through work 'cause you can;t balme a man for tryin' to make a living). I would start with the public execution of the Dell kid.**
**Of course don;t take this seriously...it is 100% a joke. Windows users can be imprisioned for their lives and forced to look at "blue screens of death" for the rst of their lives.
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Horned_Frog ]</p>
to which the executioner replied "i'll believe that next time i see you here"
I just find it so odd that a those same people who are ANTI death penalty are ALL FOR the killing of unborn children. It sure is a strange world we live in...
Save the killers and Kill the babies... No wonder we are where we are.
Dave
<strong>I just find it so odd that a those same people who are ANTI death penalty are ALL FOR the killing of unborn children.</strong><hr></blockquote>Although some people are against the death penalty for moral reasons, many liberals are against it because we may be killing the wrong guys, not that we may be killing bad guys. It's more of a lack of trust in the gov't and the criminal justice system than being against killing killers. Many of the folks with moral reasons against the death penalty are the religious conservatives rather than liberals.
To me, it's odd that conservatives, who supposedly want reduced government, are in favor of the gov't killing people, and in favor of gov't regulation of reproduction. That sounds like pretty big gov't to me.
:eek:
<strong>
You are ignorant. (I love saying that to Europeans.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
*LoL* As someone with a European (sometimes know-it-all) brother-in-law, that was funny.
In geneal I would like to make three assertions:
1. Nobody here has any idea what percentage of Americans supports the death penalty.
2. Like Scott, I support it but only in certain circumstances.
3. People in this community of ours (AI) need to be more careful when naming their threads. In recent memory we have
"Boycott the Salvation Army" - which, it turns out, is not entirely what the poster wanted, but rather to "see what we thought" (rather like:
"Do All Americans support death-penalty?"
Yah, all 380-some million of us. It's unanimous.
and then there was
"Why are All Americans so Stupid?"
and
"What are All Americans so Fat?"
Can we at least phrase the questions a little more intelligently so as to avoid the inevitable "how can you possibly say we're ALL _______ , you moron?" type debates that follow?
Gracias.
<strong>Although some people are against the death penalty for moral reasons, many liberals are against it because we may be killing the wrong guys, not that we may be killing bad guys. It's more of a lack of trust in the gov't and the criminal justice system than being against killing killers. Many of the folks with moral reasons against the death penalty are the religious conservatives rather than liberals.
To me, it's odd that conservatives, who supposedly want reduced government, are in favor of the gov't killing people, and in favor of gov't regulation of reproduction. That sounds like pretty big gov't to me.
:eek: </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm what you'd call a Civil Libertarian.... I'm pro-choice and pro-death (try and figure that one out) and I strongly follow Jeffersonian ways; i.e. FedGov would have minimal powers and size, and respects the rights of people to choose for themselves. A government that governs least, governs best. The federal Government should do little more (very little) than defend the country / borders. States would hold the power.
I'm also what you'd consider a fiscial consertive... Please don't tell (force) me how and where I need to spend/donate/throw-away my hard earned money... I can take care of it myself thank you very much.
It's not easy being me in a world of Dems and GOPers... But when it comes down to it I have to admit I usually land on the GOP side of the fence far more often then the Dem side.
Dave
[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: DaveGee ]</p>
<strong>Although some people are against the death penalty for moral reasons, many liberals are against it because we may be killing the wrong guys, not that we may be killing bad guys. It's more of a lack of trust in the gov't and the criminal justice system than being against killing killers. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Really? Seems to me that you could pass a law that requires DNA evidence when applying the death penalty and then there's be no controversy from you guys. Yeah, that ain't so.
<strong>i-like the vast majority of people from my particular corner of this rather vast country- am opposed to executions. there is however merit in having the death penalty be legal, if there are never death penalty sentences (decreases frequency of appeals. which some might argue is a bad thing. but it certainly saves money.)
but it really really is high time the us banned the death penalty, if only for diplomatic reasons. it's pathetic that americans think europeans are stupid for banning it and desiring that we ban it as well, when instead this could be taken advantage of. we could gain a lot of face by taking our heads out of our asses and for once doing something which another nation wants, rather than insisting on being "independently powerful" and stupid. but that's not likely to happen with the kind of religious zealotry that plagues this country these days. gosh, religion wouldn't be so bad if people weren't so stupid about following it!
that a majority of people would believe the death penalty is good in a country where a majority of people believe that a book which tells them not to kill is holy... what a country
What a confused jumble of tidbits that was. What kind of flowers you sniffing over there Flowerbob?
You are against the death penalty, but you are for having it legal, but against ??? I lost you there. And then you jump to completely banning it like the UK. Does it have merit or not?
Ans as for tryin got gain face by giving up due to pressure from other countries. As my mother used to say, "Just because he jumped off a bridge does not mean you have to as well." If Europe want to have no death penalty fine, I don't live in Europe so I have no say in that, I live here and I say the death penalty should stay.
Gosh, your post wouldn't have been so bad if you weren't so muddled about posting it.
And for that last quote, Thou shalt not kill has to do with you personally. When you break that law the punishment is up to those in authority over you to determine. Not up to you or me. Those in authority say that certain crimes are punishable by death, so death is the punishment.
Wow, that was hard. Anyone here speak "flowerbob"?
Sad, but true. Of course, 62.4 million Catholics can't be wrong
from the catechism of the catholic church (p.2267):
[quote]...'Today, in fact, given the means at the State's disposal to effectively repress crime by rendering inoffensive the one who has committed it, without depriving him definitively of the possibility of redeeming himself, cases of absolute necessity for suppression of the offender 'today ... are very rare, if not practically non-existent.'<hr></blockquote>
from p.2271:
[quote]"Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law:
You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish. God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: Abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.<hr></blockquote>
<strong>Really? Seems to me that you could pass a law that requires DNA evidence when applying the death penalty and then there's be no controversy from you guys. Yeah, that ain't so.</strong><hr></blockquote>I believe a lot of the recent decline in support of execution is due to the DNA releases of innocents. So, yes, I do think a law that required DNA proof before execution would go a long way towards making it more acceptable. It would do it for me. For those who are opposed for moral reasons, like yourself, probably not.
Of course, if DNA proof was required, there would be almost no executions.
Not revenge.
Self Preservation.
But...
Death is too good for them, don't you think? I'd like to see a way to let the killer experience the same terror and feeling of what it is like to be killed. Over and over.