Psystar, Apple both look to avoid 2010 trial

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  • Reply 21 of 50
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,870member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Maximara View Post


    He said HARDWARE, genius not software. iTunes is software. Sheesh.



    Yeah, and an Apple computer is hardware. Try reading people's posts properly before being rude.
  • Reply 22 of 50
    geekdadgeekdad Posts: 1,131member
    I think you guys are all missing the point. There are hundreds of thousands of people installing Mac OS X on non Apple hardware. You can go to numerous sites and get tutorials on how to install Leopard and Snow Leopard on various non Apple Hardware. There is a grass roots movement to install it then others willing to lend support.

    I buy Apple products and have been for a very long time. I work in the IT industry and Windows keeps me employed but I love Mac OS X and install it on my home built computer that cost me about $800 to build and install Snow Leopard. I buy a separate license for each and every installation as well.

    This home built computer would cost 3 to 4 THOUSAND dollars for a comparable MacPro.

    I am very pro Apple and buy their products whenever I can. In my household we have 2 iPhone 3Gs and 3 Apple laptops. I am writing this on a unibody Macbook Pro. I love it!

    All this discussion about installing Mac OS X on on non Apple harware reminds me of other platforms like VCRs first came out. The TV and movie industry tried to make it illegal to record movies. But the public won and we are all better for it. If the tv and movie industry won there would be no TiVo. The music industry tried to make illegal to record music onto a cassette! Remember those days?? They even tried to prevent people from owning a DVD recorder! But in all of these instances the public won. Eventually the public will win and Mac OS X will be installable and supported on non Apple hardware.

    Apple is not going out and suing and shutting down the thousands of sites helping people install Mac OS X on their home computers. They know that the majority of peoeple that do that also buys regular Apple products.

    I find it extremely interesting that so may here are against installing OS X on non Apple hardware.

    Or are against Pystar selling computers with Mac OS X already installed.

    It smacks of a elitism you only find with people willing to spend more money to keep themselves in a upper class minority so to speak.

    Just think how the computing world be different id Microsoft or IBM had kept the early computer and operating systems platforms "closed". The computing world would be so different today!!!!

    Well anyway that is just humble opinion!!!! You don't have to agree but you have to admitt I made some good points!!!

    Geekdad
  • Reply 23 of 50
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    I find it extremely interesting that so may here are against installing OS X on non Apple hardware.

    Or are against Pystar selling computers with Mac OS X already installed.

    It smacks of a elitism you only find with people willing to spend more money to keep themselves in a upper class minority so to speak.

    Geekdad



    It isn't the hackintosh hobbyists that are the problem. It's those that want to do it while running a business behind it. The problem with the hackintosh-hobbyists, however, is they are encouraging it, while only thinking of themselves and their tinkering hobby. A lot of them give no consideration whatsoever to the wider market ramifications. In other words, they aren't thinking outside the basement.



    The last thing anyone in their right mind would want is for OS X to become and open OS. Apple succeeds spectacularly with Macs and OS X precisely because it's a closed, controlled ecosystem. Anything else (or anything less), and OS X becomes a Windows clone. And who the hell would want that?? The whole reason behind Apple's business model when it comes to Macs (and their resulting success) is that OS X is tied to Apple's hardware. This is the reason customer satisfaction rates are so high, year after year. This is the reason the also-rans of the industry aspire to render their products more "Mac-like" in every way possible.



    This "freely use computing hardware the way they want" notion lives and dies in small corners of the internet, and in the even smaller corners in which Apple fan sites live, fuelled mainly by the geek/tech-enthusiast minority that (wrongly) thinks it knows whats best for everyone else. In fact, Apple seems to know best. Period. Hackintoshes and mucking around with the OS and wailing about "freeing" it is alright for that small segment of Apple's user base (a segment which in the grand scheme of things is inconsequential anyway), but it would be a monumental disservice to the average user.



    Apple succeeds because of these specific differentiations. It's a coveted business model that others only wish they could emulate successfully. We're at the point now, where if the average user has $1000+ to spend (and apparently, plenty of them do!) a Mac will be near or at the very top of their list. That's quite an accomplishment. It's the reason Ballmer ends up looking stupid, flustered, and tongue-tied at press conferences, especially when he's in a room-full of Macs.



    And by the way, the last thing Apple's numbers, record Mac sales, and dominance of consumer mindshare and opinion would suggest is for Apple to free its OS. There's simply no demand for that and no reason to do so.



    This "grass roots" hackintosh movement, isn't. It's a hobby that is confined to obscure corners of the internet, mostly on Mac fansites. So we're talking a minority of a minority, that in no way, shape or form represents the market at large, and it never will, because it is fundamentally at odds with the whole premise of Macs + OS X - a premise which is coveted by the entire industry and which is universally attractive to consumers.
  • Reply 24 of 50
    geekdadgeekdad Posts: 1,131member
    [QUOTE=Quadra

    This "grass roots" hackintosh movement, isn't. It's a hobby that is confined to obscure corners of the internet, mostly on Mac fansites. So we're talking a minority of a minority, that in no way, shape or form represents the market at large, and it never will, because it is fundamentally at odds with the whole premise of Macs + OS X - a premise which is coveted by the entire industry and which is universally attractive to consumers.[/QUOTE]



    This is where I think you are wrong. The Hackintosh movement is not obscure or a minority anymore. It growing by leaps and bounds. Google it and you will find tons of how to articles and websites where people are willing to help you install OS X. This has not gone un noticed by Apple. The are not going after those websites and individuals. I have done consulting for Apple and I have talked to some lower level managers and they know all about the hackintosh movement and even do it themselves! There are definite gaps in product offerings that Apple know exists. Can you imagine a mid tower desktop not quite a Mac Pro but definitely not an iMac!

    Also as Apple's market share grows they will have the some of the same problems that Window PCS have. There will be more viruses attacking OS X. The uniqueness will wear off as well with the brand name. Already Apple is having trouble coming up with the next computing product to do with the computer what the iPhone is doing to cell phones. They haven't topped the switch to Intel chips. They are still riding that wave.

    Apple could kill the whole hackintosh movement by selling an upgradable desktop mid tower.

    I think as the hackintosh movement grows Apple will eventually release more products to appease those lost customers. Why buy a $2000 iMac when you can have a faster better machine for $800?

    And one that has better hardware inside with better updatability?

    Hackintosh movement is not going away.......as a matter of fact I think it is growing!!



    Geekdad
  • Reply 25 of 50
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thewolfro View Post


    [...] I never understood why on earth doesn't Apple do something about the OSX so that it can be installed on a regular PC...[...]



    Well, because it would ruin their hardware business...
  • Reply 26 of 50
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    I think you guys are all missing the point. There are hundreds of thousands of people installing Mac OS X on non Apple hardware. You can go to numerous sites and get tutorials on how to install Leopard and Snow Leopard on various non Apple Hardware. There is a grass roots movement to install it then others willing to lend support.

    I buy Apple products and have been for a very long time. I work in the IT industry and Windows keeps me employed but I love Mac OS X and install it on my home built computer that cost me about $800 to build and install Snow Leopard. I buy a separate license for each and every installation as well.

    This home built computer would cost 3 to 4 THOUSAND dollars for a comparable MacPro.

    I am very pro Apple and buy their products whenever I can. In my household we have 2 iPhone 3Gs and 3 Apple laptops. I am writing this on a unibody Macbook Pro. I love it!

    All this discussion about installing Mac OS X on on non Apple harware reminds me of other platforms like VCRs first came out. The TV and movie industry tried to make it illegal to record movies. But the public won and we are all better for it. If the tv and movie industry won there would be no TiVo. The music industry tried to make illegal to record music onto a cassette! Remember those days?? They even tried to prevent people from owning a DVD recorder! But in all of these instances the public won. Eventually the public will win and Mac OS X will be installable and supported on non Apple hardware.

    Apple is not going out and suing and shutting down the thousands of sites helping people install Mac OS X on their home computers. They know that the majority of peoeple that do that also buys regular Apple products.

    I find it extremely interesting that so may here are against installing OS X on non Apple hardware.

    Or are against Pystar selling computers with Mac OS X already installed.

    It smacks of a elitism you only find with people willing to spend more money to keep themselves in a upper class minority so to speak.

    Just think how the computing world be different id Microsoft or IBM had kept the early computer and operating systems platforms "closed". The computing world would be so different today!!!!

    Well anyway that is just humble opinion!!!! You don't have to agree but you have to admitt I made some good points!!!

    Geekdad



    It is interesting to read so many posts from people who appear to have absolutely no clue about why actually Apple has the commercial success it is currently enjoying ('closed' ecosystem and all...), and on top of that think that what *geeks* like is liked by everyone else.
  • Reply 27 of 50
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,757member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    This is where I think you are wrong. The Hackintosh movement is not obscure or a minority anymore. It growing by leaps and bounds. Google it and you will find tons of how to articles and websites where people are willing to help you install OS X.

    And one that has better hardware inside with better updatability?

    Hackintosh movement is not going away.......as a matter of fact I think it is growing!!



    Geekdad



    It's growing in enthusiast circles on th net. It is patently ridiculous to assume the average user (i.e., the bulk of Apple's market) is going to start messing around with getting OS X to work on generic PCs and read up on it and go to the trouble of involving themselves in the process. The very reason people are turning to Apple is to avoid all of that! The whole trend is toward simplifying and eliminating learning curves and offering a turn-key solution to everything. Please. The consumers that make up the bulk of Apple's market (who don't post on AI and MR, by the way) don't even know what a "hackintosh" is, much less even care about playing around with one.



    Consumers who are lining up to pay a nice premium for Apple's hardware - despite the existence and clear marketing of lower-cost solutions that purportedly offer more value, and in a recession, are not going to jump at the idea of tinkering with a low-cost generic PC in order to save a few bucks. Apple's record quarters are achieved by consumers ready and willing to spend the money. The hackintosh phenomenon isn't even on the radar in the actual market. It's a novelty at best.



    It was nearly the same with the Windows skinning community. A burgeoning community on the net, with entire websites dedicated to it, but with only a very minor representation in reality. Outside of Deviantart and Wincustomize, no one gave a damn about it.
  • Reply 28 of 50
    geekdadgeekdad Posts: 1,131member
    I am not arguing with you guys about who the average person is that buys a Apple computer. The points you make about those people are valid and correct. No where did I say otherwise. Apple is picking up more and more market share all the time.

    But to keep the margins they are getting used to and to pick up more market share they will have to do something to their product line. They can only make a laptop or an iMac so thin before people start to realize they can buy something cheaper that has the same hardware specs and install Mac OS X on it themselves.

    I realize that is NOT the majority of the Apple consumers but more of the "geek" segment that wants to have the fastest machine they can get their hands on. But that segment the "geek" or "gamer" is the segment the drives the advances in hardware. Not the average consumer. The computer from 3 years ago is plenty fast enough for them. Who do you think keeps AMD alive and kicking?

    The segment of computer buyers that drive advances in hardware and software are also the "Hackintosh" segment! As Apple grows and they gain more market share the will have to deliver a product to appease that segment. Eventually it will as easy to install Mac OS X on non Apple hardware as any other operating system. It will be so easy as point and click....

    Anyway I am not going to argue with you as we both bring up good valid points. Those points just happen to be a little different! :-) Have a great weekend!

    Geekdad
  • Reply 29 of 50
    piotpiot Posts: 1,346member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    I think you guys are all missing the point. There are hundreds of thousands of people installing Mac OS X on non Apple hardware. ....... etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc etc



    God I am getting so tired of all you geeks. What is is it with you guys? I think it's great that you can build a whole computer with just a soldering iron and some gaffa tape. I think it's great that all your friends do it too. And it's great that you can find little DIY geek havens all over the interwebs. But for crying out loud... try and remember that there are about a billion computer users out there who have never even seen the inside of their machine.,, and simply don't give a shit about all the geek techy stuff.



    Sorry. Sometimes the truth hurts. \





    Quote:

    You don't have to agree but you have to admitt I made some good points!!!



    See above.
  • Reply 30 of 50
    I think all the people that talk about how Apple will eventually have to open up the OS are missing something. Basically the reason Apple opposes something like Psystar is the same reason that they bring all those suits about trademark infringement. If you don't fight it, you lose it.



    Look at it like this: Apple doesn't give a crap about someone buying PC parts to build a computer, and finding tutorials on the web on how to install OS X on it. Their attitude is probably, "Knock yourself out. But you are ON YOUR OWN, and will get NO SUPPORT FROM APPLE." And someone who does this knows they can't expect Apple to support them, because they have half a brain.



    But when a company starts selling computers pre-installed with OS X and selling them as Macs, Apple has to fight it. Why? Because if they don't, eventually some retard will get a lawyer and sue because Apple is "not supporting their OS on my computer, and by not litigating against the seller of said computer, they loose their right to deny support". So, you say to yourself, why doesn't Apple just SAY, "You can sell computers with OS X but will not get support from Apple"? Well, because saying that would make Apple liable, and the retards lawyer could argue that Apple by ALLOWING a company to build computers with OS X and selling them means that they are now REQUIRED to support the OS on those computers, despite what the license says. Don't believe it? Then look at what Psystar is doing. They are saying that Apple should allow them to sell computers with OS X installed, despite what the license says. This just leads to the slippery slope where sooner or later Apple would need to support the OS because it's Apple's OS. And what does Apple get in return? Cannibalization of their hardware sales, and dissatisfaction from a growing pool of users of cheap hardware where the OS doesn't "just work".
  • Reply 31 of 50
    gustavgustav Posts: 827member
    Quote:

    I buy Apple products and have been for a very long time. I work in the IT industry and Windows keeps me employed but I love Mac OS X and install it on my home built computer that cost me about $800 to build and install Snow Leopard. I buy a separate license for each and every installation as well.



    Except that it costs Apple more than $129 per copy of MacOS X to develop it. So congratulations, you ripped Apple off for each home-built PC you bought instead of a Mac.
  • Reply 32 of 50
    djsherlydjsherly Posts: 1,031member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gustav View Post


    Except that it costs Apple more than $129 per copy of MacOS X to develop it. So congratulations, you ripped Apple off for each home-built PC you bought instead of a Mac.



    Does it? And has he?
  • Reply 33 of 50
    geekdadgeekdad Posts: 1,131member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gustav View Post


    Except that it costs Apple more than $129 per copy of MacOS X to develop it. So congratulations, you ripped Apple off for each home-built PC you bought instead of a Mac.



    So I bought a license for $129 per installation so how did I rip Apple off????

    Well actually I always buy the family pak.....

    So explain it to me.....
  • Reply 34 of 50
    geekdadgeekdad Posts: 1,131member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OnePotato View Post


    I think all the people that talk about how Apple will eventually have to open up the OS are missing something. Basically the reason Apple opposes something like Psystar is the same reason that they bring all those suits about trademark infringement. If you don't fight it, you lose it.



    Look at it like this: Apple doesn't give a crap about someone buying PC parts to build a computer, and finding tutorials on the web on how to install OS X on it. Their attitude is probably, "Knock yourself out. But you are ON YOUR OWN, and will get NO SUPPORT FROM APPLE." And someone who does this knows they can't expect Apple to support them, because they have half a brain.



    But when a company starts selling computers pre-installed with OS X and selling them as Macs, Apple has to fight it. Why? Because if they don't, eventually some retard will get a lawyer and sue because Apple is "not supporting their OS on my computer, and by not litigating against the seller of said computer, they loose their right to deny support". So, you say to yourself, why doesn't Apple just SAY, "You can sell computers with OS X but will not get support from Apple"? Well, because saying that would make Apple liable, and the retards lawyer could argue that Apple by ALLOWING a company to build computers with OS X and selling them means that they are now REQUIRED to support the OS on those computers, despite what the license says. Don't believe it? Then look at what Psystar is doing. They are saying that Apple should allow them to sell computers with OS X installed, despite what the license says. This just leads to the slippery slope where sooner or later Apple would need to support the OS because it's Apple's OS. And what does Apple get in return? Cannibalization of their hardware sales, and dissatisfaction from a growing pool of users of cheap hardware where the OS doesn't "just work".



    Have you or do you recorded TV? Ever copy a VHS tape or DVD? Ever record music from the radio...ever done these things? Then at one time those things were and still are very illegal read the license when you buy music or watch TV. Have you ever made a backup copy or a music CD?

    All those thing go against a license from the music distributor and the artists rights.

    You guys amaze me......you do the same things you condemn others for doing.

    Psystar will lose in court....probably. But you have to applaud that they are willing to take a stand against one of the big corporations.

    Eventually Apple will have to offer more products to meet those needs that they are not filling now.

    Mainstream everyday computer users buy most of the computers in this world but do NOTHING to drive innovation. They are easy to appease just wrap it in a pretty package and you are satisfied. Most of you sheep that buy computers use about 20 percent of the computing power on that nice new shiny computer you bought. It will handle email and web browsing just fine. But if you were the whole computer market then there would be no need for anything faster than what we had 3 years ago!!! Get a clue! It is the gamers and geeks that drive computer and IT in general to get better faster smaller and CHEAPER.

    If you were the only market out there then Intel would have stopped making anything faster than a Pentium 4. You would still be using Dial up for internet access because all the ISPs would not need to make a faster infrastructure because no one would be demanding it.

    Don't take all the advantages you have now for granted. If it wasn't for the gamer and geeks you would have the computing power and hardware innovations you have now they drive the hardware market.

    So call all the names you want be tired of all the geeks but you mainstreamers do not drive the market as much as you think!



    Done with this thread. It does no good to argue with the uninformed.

    Geekdad
  • Reply 35 of 50
    davidwdavidw Posts: 2,025member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    So I bought a license for $129 per installation so how did I rip Apple off????

    Well actually I always buy the family pak.....

    So explain it to me.....



    It's the same as if you were to buy an "upgrade" version of Windows for a PC you built from scratch. And then using a Windows disk from another PC you have (or a friends PC) to get it to load.



    When Adobe was selling Photoshop, a full version cost about $600. But if you had purchased a previous full version, it will only cost you $200 to upgrade it to the newer full version. That's because you are upgrading a previous Photoshop license.



    The retail OSX is sold for the benefit of Mac users to upgrade the OS license that came when they purchased their Mac. Even if they bought a used Mac off eBay. The OS license is transfered with the Mac even if the you didn't get the disc it was on. And even if there was no OS in the Mac when you bought it, you have a previous Apple OS license. And are entitle to load the retail OSX (providing it will run on your Mac).



    A Hackintosh had no previous OSX license. And therefore not entitled to the retail OSX license.



    This has been explained many times before by many different people on this forum.
  • Reply 36 of 50
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by thewolfro View Post


    Anyway what i want to say is that i think that people should be provided with more options...



    Problem is you and others want think you have the right or choice to "more OS X options". Sadly though, you do not.



    The choice to allow OS X on other hardware is Apple's and Apple's alone.
  • Reply 37 of 50
    quadra 610quadra 610 Posts: 6,757member
    Answers in bold. Easier to just do it within the quoted portion.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    Have you or do you recorded TV? Ever copy a VHS tape or DVD? Ever record music from the radio...ever done these things? Then at one time those things were and still are very illegal read the license when you buy music or watch TV. Have you ever made a backup copy or a music CD?

    All those thing go against a license from the music distributor and the artists rights.



    Sure we have. But we don't run a business behind it.



    You guys amaze me......you do the same things you condemn others for doing.



    Again, there's a difference between personal use/private sale, and unlicensed distribution.



    Psystar will lose in court....probably. But you have to applaud that they are willing to take a stand against one of the big corporations.



    "Taking a stand" for the hell of it, or for dubious reasons is hardly praiseworthy. It's downright destructive.



    Eventually Apple will have to offer more products to meet those needs that they are not filling now.



    No they won't. They certainly can, but they don't have to. No market evidence whatsoever for this. Psystar certainly isn't getting rich off their Mac knock-offs. Consumers vote with their wallets. Judging by that, their needs are being met by Apple just fine. In a recession, even. And in the presence of lower-cost alternatives.



    Mainstream everyday computer users buy most of the computers in this world but do NOTHING to drive innovation.



    They do. The need for increasing ease and simplicity drives innovation. Hence, the iPhone. In fact, the entire Mac + OS X paradigm is, and has always been, built on simplicity and ease of use. Anything that furthers this ideal is innovative, whether entirely new, or better-implemented. And "innovation" is also a self-fulfilling prophecy, thanks to competition. It is not driven solely by consumer demand.



    They are easy to appease just wrap it in a pretty package and you are satisfied.



    That pretty package has to work right. It's one thing to assume the average user's needs are more easily met by Apple, but it's an entirely different thing to assume they're stupid and would stick with something that doesn't work.



    Most of you sheep that buy computers use about 20 percent of the computing power on that nice new shiny computer you bought.



    1080p content can stress the cpu to around 70%. It takes a decent amount of computing power to play flawless HD content, for example. My newsreader alone (NetNewsWire) takes 25%. Just open a bunch of apps and leave them open. If things still run smoothly, that's "computing power."



    It will handle email and web browsing just fine. But if you were the whole computer market then there would be no need for anything faster than what we had 3 years ago!!! Get a clue! It is the gamers and geeks that drive computer and IT in general to get better faster smaller and CHEAPER.

    If you were the only market out there then Intel would have stopped making anything faster than a Pentium 4. You would still be using Dial up for internet access because all the ISPs would not need to make a faster infrastructure because no one would be demanding it.



    Don't overestimate market demand. Moore's Law is a self-fulfilling prophecy. We're at the point now where market competitors tend to also drive each other, often irrespective of actual consumer demand.



    Don't take all the advantages you have now for granted. If it wasn't for the gamer and geeks you would have the computing power and hardware innovations you have now they drive the hardware market.



    See above.



    So call all the names you want be tired of all the geeks but you mainstreamers do not drive the market as much as you think!



    Neither do you, evidently



    Done with this thread. It does no good to argue with the uninformed.



    Oh the irony.




  • Reply 38 of 50
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sflocal View Post


    Gee, why can't I load just the iPhone O/S on an Android phone?



    That'll be next, seeing as they are based on the same sort of chipset and CPU.



    But, to take the emphasis on Apple being the bad party:
    • Why can't I install Windows Mobile on my Android Phone?

    • Why can't I install UIQ on my Nokia S60 based phone?

    • Why can't I install a newer version of S60 OS on last years S60-based handset (at least Apple allows that with iPhone OS)?

    • Why can't I upgrade Windows Mobile on my WinMo phone just because it's a carrier branded phone (although the open version of the phone can be upgraded?

    There are tons of examples of this kind of thing. However, Apple remains in the right. Get over it!
  • Reply 39 of 50
    rob55rob55 Posts: 1,291member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    Psystar will lose in court....probably. But you have to applaud that they are willing to take a stand against one of the big corporations.



    They are violating the OSX EULA which specifically forbids third-party installations so they'll certainly get no applause from me.
  • Reply 40 of 50
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by geekdad View Post


    I think you guys are all missing the point. There are hundreds of thousands of people installing Mac OS X on non Apple hardware.



    I think it's probably more like just "hundreds" :P



    It's not that big. For every person trying to install OS X, there are easily thousands that don't actually give a crap either way.



    Most people buy a new computer with Windows pre-installed because they really don't want to piss about installing an OS onto their PC. They feel so strongly about it that they will wait until a new OS comes out to actual upgrade their machine.



    I think it's you that is missing the point. Geeks will remain in the < 30% of computer owning population forever (don't confuse computer literate with a geek). And even less of that 30% actually care about OS X at all, and even less still care about OS X on non-Apple hardware.
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