Apple TV 3.0 software update to support iTunes LP, Extras

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  • Reply 61 of 112
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,271member
    I wonder if we see a new Apple TV next Spring with ARM based internals and a SD slot. There's got to be a reason why Apple's suddenly added SD card slots to half their Mac lineup.



    I wouldn't even need a full blown DVR with Guide data. If I could plug my ATV inline with my cable and simply buffer 20 minutes of video for pause/rewind and other features I'd be happy.
  • Reply 62 of 112
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    The issue is bandwidth. A 720p movie can take up to 4GB of data. That's about as much as Apple wants to warehouse and stream. A 1080p digital file would be over twice that size. We won't see Apple deliver 1080p until a nextgen codec allows them to deliver a 1080p movie in 4GB of space. I'd hazzard a guess of about 3 years.



    Unfortunately I think you are correct. On the one hand I would hate to see such heavy compression, but on the other hand, broadband rollout in the U.S. has slowed dramatically. Many people just don't have access to pipes (bandwidth) big enough to constantly handle a HD.



    What really has me concerned is that most all the broadband providers are also content providers. Many are cracking down on file sharing but I believe even genuinely purchased content from places like itunes will be targeted soon. They don't want to be seen as or regulated to being a dumb utility that can be cut out of the more profitable and ever growing media distribution business. IMHO.
  • Reply 63 of 112
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Playing 1080p video via hardware isn't the problem. The latest ARM and PowerVR cores hande it with ease. The issue is bandwidth. A 720p movie can take up to 4GB of data. That's about as much as Apple wants to warehouse and stream. A 1080p digital file would be over twice that size. We won't see Apple deliver 1080p until a nextgen codec allows them to deliver a 1080p movie in 4GB of space. I'd hazzard a guess of about 3 years.



    The problem is, it's a bit presumptuous to assume the only use for 1080p is through iTunes purchased media. First, even just viewing photos and slide shows in 1080p would be a big improvement. Second, 1080p home video recorders are becoming very common, even in point and shoot cameras. iMovie has been able to accommodate full HD, so why not AppleTV? Third, not that I advocate piracy in any way, but I am aware of 1080p Blu-Ray rips in H.264 which exist on Bit Torrent networks and they are typically at the 4GB and under size. Likewise, I'd challenge your notion that 1080p movies require twice that bandwidth.
  • Reply 64 of 112
    cmf2cmf2 Posts: 1,427member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bigdaddyp View Post


    Unfortunately I think you are correct. On the one hand I would hate to see such heavy compression, but on the other hand, broadband rollout in the U.S. has slowed dramatically. Many people just don't have access to pipes (bandwidth) big enough to constantly handle a HD.



    What really has me concerned is that most all the broadband providers are also content providers. Many are cracking down on file sharing but I believe even genuinely purchased content from places like itunes will be targeted soon. They don't want to be seen as or regulated to being a dumb utility that can be cut out of the more profitable and ever growing media distribution business. IMHO.



    At least the FCC seems to be on top of the net neutrality issue. You can't say the same about the CRTC here in Canada.
  • Reply 65 of 112
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Even if Apple added a 1080p video option, alongside their other HD and SD videos, it still would be “inferior” to what Blu-ray offers, unless they also include all the extras AND the same bitrate found on Blu-ray’s 1080p in H.264. I don’t see that happening, so the people that prefer better quality over convenience are still going to hate the AppleTV for what it is.



    Getting the device to be able to push 1080p with new HW should not be tied to the iTunes Store also offering it in their library. Most HDTVs are 1080p so having a native HW output is important. The AppleTV complements the iTunes Store, not the other way around.
  • Reply 66 of 112
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,728member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    Right now it’s got a weak custom Intel CPU, it’s the GPU that is doing all the heavy listing. I think Ion (Atom+Nvidia 9400M) has proven to be successful and Apple certainly has experience with the 9400M.



    But the CE4100 does it all in one chip with a lower power dissipation:



    9400M TDP is about 12 W, Atom CPUs used in the ION platform are between 2.5 W and 8 W, making a total of at least 14.5 W.



    On the other hand, the CE4100 does the job of both chips and consumes 7 to 9 watts.



    Apple could even base the AppleTV on the iPhone/iPod touch platform, and it would consume even less power, however that would require a ground-up re-write of the software, whereas an ION or CE4100 solution would just require "tweaks".



    At the moment, the energy efficiency of the AppleTV is dreadful; something Apple should be ashamed of (and the evidence suggests they are, there's no details of the AppleTV in Apple's environment pages).
  • Reply 67 of 112
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by super8sean View Post


    magic mouse just arrived at all apple stores!!!!



    ... that was completely random.



    Back on topic.



    I really hope ATV 3.0 offers a lot more than iTunes LP art... I'm already thinking of selling mine, my Xbox (I hardly game) and DVD Player and just getting a Mini.
  • Reply 68 of 112
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post


    At least the FCC seems to be on top of the net neutrality issue. You can't say the same about the CRTC here in Canada.



    Excuse me while I get out my tinfoil hat.



    This should turn out to be a interesting drama, however, I do not trust the politicians to do the right thing in regards to net neutrality. I do not trust either party on this issue, hell I don't think many of the old farts in congress fully understand how the internet works. This will definitely need to be a time where we listen to what they say but more importantly watch what they do.



    Whew, putting the hat away.
  • Reply 69 of 112
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    Playing 1080p video via hardware isn't the problem. The latest ARM and PowerVR cores hande it with ease. The issue is bandwidth. A 720p movie can take up to 4GB of data. That's about as much as Apple wants to warehouse and stream. A 1080p digital file would be over twice that size. We won't see Apple deliver 1080p until a nextgen codec allows them to deliver a 1080p movie in 4GB of space. I'd hazzard a guess of about 3 years.



    I hate to say it, but MS manage it. Their 720p videos are around 6GBs and far better quality than you get on iTunes. I rarely use Marketplace because I hate the points system, but 720p movies I've rented from there look gorgeous.
  • Reply 70 of 112
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,271member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by another_steve View Post


    The problem is, it's a bit presumptuous to assume the only use for 1080p is through iTunes purchased media. First, even just viewing photos and slide shows in 1080p would be a big improvement. Second, 1080p home video recorders are becoming very common, even in point and shoot cameras. iMovie has been able to accommodate full HD, so why not AppleTV? Third, not that I advocate piracy in any way, but I am aware of 1080p Blu-Ray rips in H.264 which exist on Bit Torrent networks and they are typically at the 4GB and under size. Likewise, I'd challenge your notion that 1080p movies require twice that bandwidth.



    another_steve. Yes yes yes. I forgot to state that I hope to the hardware move to 1080p playback with the explicit acknowledgement from Apple that there are no plans for iTunes HD movies to move to 1080p. This way I can play 1080p home created files or trailers in their full glory.



    The Blu-ray rips that you speak of have been recompressed. There's no way to take a Blu-ray video file running 15GB and 30+ Megabits per second and compress that down to 4GB without hammering the mbps and stripping audio channels.



    Regarding the qualitative difference it's pretty clear 1080p video is a bigger pill to manage.





    720P video



    1280 * 720 = 921,600 bits per frame

    921,600 * 24 frames per second = 22, 118,400 bits per second

    22,118,400 / 8 = 2,764,800 MB



    1080p video



    1920 * 1080 = 2, 073,600 bits per frame

    2,073,600 * 24 fps = 49,766,400

    49,766,400 / 8 = 6,220,800 MB



    There's no way around it...if you want 1080p you have to use a lot more data.
  • Reply 71 of 112
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    But the CE4100 does it all in one chip with a lower power dissipation:



    9400M TDP is about 12 W, Atom CPUs used in the ION platform are between 2.5 W and 8 W, making a total of at least 14.5 W.



    On the other hand, the CE4100 does the job of both chips and consumes 7 to 9 watts.



    Apple could even base the AppleTV on the iPhone/iPod touch platform, and it would consume even less power, however that would require a ground-up re-write of the software, whereas an ION or CE4100 solution would just require "tweaks".



    At the moment, the energy efficiency of the AppleTV is dreadful; something Apple should be ashamed of (and the evidence suggests they are, there's no details of the AppleTV in Apple's environment pages).



    I?m sold! Is this Atom on the market yet?



    If it really can reduce the power consumption that much I have to assume it can reduce the heat tremendously, it also looks like it can reduce the size. Hopefully that means that can put in a 3.5? HDD into it.



    How would this CPU work out if they made an AppleTV SDK?
  • Reply 72 of 112
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Zoolook View Post


    ... that was completely random.



    Back on topic.



    I really hope ATV 3.0 offers a lot more than iTunes LP art... I'm already thinking of selling mine, my Xbox (I hardly game) and DVD Player and just getting a Mini.



    I can't stress enough how wonderful a mini is when it is setup properly as a htpc. And as a file server. And as a print server. And as back up for time machine. And...well you get the idea.

    Other then loosing your gaming machine I think you won't regret it.

    Even my wife who could care less about tech gear loves the way I have set up our mini.
  • Reply 73 of 112
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by techno View Post


    I still believe that the next incarnation of an AppleTV will be integrated with a LG supplied TV. I don't see a future for an independent box as it is.



    Plus, I don't listen to Piper Jaffray, unless I plan to buy or sell some AAPL. Because they are always trying to manipulate the stock price with their "insights."



    Try again, LG & Netflix have already been working on a TV

    http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/netflix/default.htm



    Microsoft XBox already streams Netflix

    http://www.xbox.com/en-US/live/netflix/default.htm



    And Sony Playstation is already partnered with Netflix.

    http://bits.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/1...station-3/?hpw



    Although if you have a Netflix subsription you can stream them to your computer. I know it works with PC. Not sure about Mac.
  • Reply 74 of 112
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,728member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I’m sold! Is this Atom on the market yet?



    It was released a month ago by the looks of it.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    If it really can reduce the power consumption that much I have to assume it can reduce the heat tremendously, it also looks like it can reduce the size



    Exactly.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    How would this CPU work out if they made an AppleTV SDK?



    Well, the Atom part of the CE4100 is an x86 processor running at 1.2 GHz, but it's much, much simpler than say a Core 2 Duo; it has fewer execution units and doesn't do out-of-order processing, so you get lower performance per clock relative to a Core 2 Duo (not surprising given it consumes 10 times less power). The CE4100 includes the same 3D graphics engine as the iPhone 3GS.



    Conclusion: certainly an AppleTV SDK would be feasible, third-parties would be able to deliver games with the same graphics complexity and performance as those for the iPhone.
  • Reply 75 of 112
    chris_cachris_ca Posts: 2,543member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by super8sean View Post


    magic mouse just arrived at all apple stores!!!!



    and you quote an entire 8 paragraph article not related to the Magic Mouse because?
  • Reply 76 of 112
    cmf2cmf2 Posts: 1,427member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    Conclusion: certainly an AppleTV SDK would be feasible, third-parties would be able to deliver games with the same graphics complexity and performance as those for the iPhone.



    How well would that scale up to a TV sized display?
  • Reply 77 of 112
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post


    How well would that scale up to a TV sized display?



    My initial query that Mr. H reaponded to eluded 3rd-party apps being made specifially for the AppleTV, so they would be native.
  • Reply 78 of 112
    cmf2cmf2 Posts: 1,427member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    My initial query that Mr. H reaponded to eluded 3rd-party apps being made specifially for the AppleTV, so they would be native.



    I'm just unsure of what he meant by same graphics complexity as the iPhone. How good would the games look on a TV? Part of the reason games look good on the iPhone is that it has a fairly high pixel density and relatively low pixel count. How well could a chip with similar graphics capabilities perform at higher pixel counts? I'm not an expert at this, just trying to get a feel for what games could look like on a TV.



    Are we talking better or worse than the Wii for example?
  • Reply 79 of 112
    foo2foo2 Posts: 1,077member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by christopher126 View Post


    Is BluRay that much superior to HD?



    How much is that?



    Blu-ray 1080p is vastly superior to iTunes HD. Blu-ray is quite a bit better than ATSC HD, especially if the viewer is sitting near the display - as is the norm with a computer monitor - or during action sequences where compression artifacts look lousy.
  • Reply 80 of 112
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cmf2 View Post


    Are we talking better or worse than the Wii for example?



    Much worse than the Wii.
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