I haven't heard of it, but I can understand it. When you have customers that are accustomed to a different "retail language" (my words, sorry if it already means something different) than what Apple uses, things can be confusing. Unless told otherwise, people expect to take their purchase to an clearly visible fixed horizontal surface beside a large machine that handles the transaction.
What? Best Buy has been using remote POS for YEARS. Circuit City did it. Find an Employee and they'll take you to a department station instead of the counter up front and chek you out. You can't jus go to the station because the employees are on the floor, so you have to find them. Just Like at these Apple stores. The only difference is, Apple removed the desk and computer and instead is using an iPod. Hence Apple Employees are all remote POS stations. They don't have to bring you anywhere. How stupid do you have to be to not understand that?
A portable device that reads credit cards and stores that information, including your signature! In other words, a portable device for stealing someone's identity! No thanks.
Like any other electronic device that is used to read credit cards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleStud
just another chapter in the slow but very real decline of WinMo and its variants.
It?s not looking good for MS, but I am more worried about Motorola?s Symbol business.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigdaddyp
These are the first units rolled out, not far from prototypes. There is no reason that a version 2.0 could be rolled out that is able to read the Euro style "chip" credit card. If you notice that the rollout and testing was being done in the usa does it not make sense that they are focusing on their current real world use.
I don?t see any writing on them. Are these made by Apple or a 3rd-party manufacturer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
This looks very nice and completely blows away the old Symbol-EasyPay system. I can imagine quite a lot of demand for the case if it is made available outside Apple, especially if it were made to fit an iPhone. Obviously, you'd need to write your own software to use it (although a general POS app would work for many), but it would be a very elegant solution combined with a BT printer for those situations where you need to print a physical receipt on the spot.
One for the iPhone would be nice. Some phone manufacturers have models with built in CC readers for remote purchases. I can see both types of units being popular, especially when you consider the price of the Symbol devices compared to the price of a Touch + the accessory. Even with a huge markup they should be able to come in well below Motorola?s offering.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme
Finally a cash register with YouTube!
Quote:
Originally Posted by hiimamac
Does msft devices really way 5 times more? I've felt the ez pay and it's not to heavy but it's but light either, So I can't imagine 5 times heavier.
It sure looks like 5x as heavy. It?s considerably larger. Note, i?s not really a MS device. It?s a Motorola device using WinCE as the OS. This is still very common and will continue to be common for a long time. The Touch my change that for these handheld PoS devices, but WinCE will still have a lot of business elsewhere because Apple chooses to not license their OSes.
What? Best Buy has been using remote POS for YEARS. Circuit City did it. Find an Employee and they'll take you to a department station instead of the counter up front and chek you out. You can't jus go to the station because the employees are on the floor, so you have to find them. Just Like at these Apple stores. The only difference is, Apple removed the desk and computer and instead is using an iPod. Hence Apple Employees are all remote POS stations. They don't have to bring you anywhere. How stupid do you have to be to not understand that?
Not only that, but customers can still line up to pay in back. Although an Apple employee will probably let you know that you don't have to line up to pay.... problem solved. The only problem I have is that I don't want a bag and they email you your receipt, so how do you get out the door?
What? Best Buy has been using remote POS for YEARS. Circuit City did it. Find an Employee and they'll take you to a department station instead of the counter up front and chek you out. You can't jus go to the station because the employees are on the floor, so you have to find them. Just Like at these Apple stores. The only difference is, Apple removed the desk and computer and instead is using an iPod. Hence Apple Employees are all remote POS stations. They don't have to bring you anywhere. How stupid do you have to be to not understand that?
There are stationary registers elsewhere in the building at retail chains, but I've not seen BB use a handheld device for checkout. Other than Apple, the only place I've seen them used in retail was at Sam's Club, and that has been a while too. Sam's club had a pre-scan, the people with the handheld devices didn't take the money that I recall.
I don't like walking out of the door with a set of headphones or whatever in hand when it looks like I just snatched them off the rack.
In that case, I suggest you pay for them first. Prior payment tends to make for a good alibi and you?ll likely be able to get some free stuff from Apple if they detain you falsely.
Seriously, I?m sure Apple has worked this out when going to the paper-less receipt method
Damn Hillstones, been out much? Portable has nothing to do with that signature reader you sign at grocery stores, Wally World, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, and a thousand other places - for the last 10 years. Same device, only fixed.
Yes, the difference is that those devices are fixed to the point-of-sale counter and not portable for some employee to take the iPod Touch home and download all the credit card data into his computer. Or, for a customer to steal the handheld device and do the same thing.
I guess you have never heard of servers at restaurants using a portable card reader to steal your credit card information when you go out to eat? It happens more often than you think.
In that case, I suggest you pay for them first. Prior payment tends to make for a good alibi and you?ll likely be able to get some free stuff from Apple if they detain you falsely.
Seriously, I?m sure Apple has worked this out when going to the paper-less receipt method
yeah, I've never had a problem. It is just different
How is this any different than using any other credit card terminal or even the internet? I doubt CC info is stored on the device locally. It's on a server and transmitted with encryption. That doesn't make it any more or less "safe" than any other transaction processing method.
It is different because credit card terminals at stores are permanently fixed to the counter. They are not hand held and small enough to fit into someone's pocket. You don't know if the information is immediately transferred off the device (that USB port on the bottom may be for data transfer and charging of the battery). The article doesn't mention how it works, except that a credit card reader and scanner is attached to the iPod Touch.
Transactions over the internet are not scanned into a portable card reader.
Yes, the difference is that those devices are fixed to the point-of-sale counter and not portable for some employee to take the iPod Touch home and download all the credit card data into his computer. Or, for a customer to steal the handheld device and do the same thing.
I guess you have never heard of servers at restaurants using a portable card reader to steal your credit card information when you go out to eat? It happens more often than you think.
Your initial post made it sound like this is now a problem since these new devices are being used. If you don?t want to use any portable device when using your card, then you have that right, but you?re still not free from thievery. There is ATM malware and false fronts on ATMs to still card numbers and PINs. There is the internet at large and servers with personal information on them. I would guess that these devices do not retain your personal info.
Trying to get any info that may be stored in RAM is not something that can be done easily. I?d also guess that with all these handheld devices, they can be deactivated quickly. This may even have GPS chip in it that can be tracked with Find My iPhone in case it is lost or stolen, something the other devices can?t do.
Then you have CC companies refunding your money right aware and insuring your card. I don?t feel threatened all by the use of these devices and I?m quite paranoid about identity theft. My biggest concern with these devices is not the device itself, but the wireless transmission that can be picked up by anyone, even outside the store, or something calmly shopping around while a device in their pocket is capturing all the data. If they can hack the encryption then they could collect for days, weeks or months and before using the data. Tracking that back to an Apple Store and then to a group or rotating shoppers working the scam would be very difficult.
Only POS in this article is the iPhone formatting AI stupidly designed. It was a pain in the a$$ reading this article. What's up with that? Lord all you need are big ads and there won't be ANY window left for actual reading.
i don't know about Canada or Europe, but in the US the rules are that the merchant pays for unauthorized credit card use most of the time because they are supposed to check for ID and/or signatures. and they run fraud software in the background to protect against theft. i've seen people with stolen cards get all the charges taken off because once they call the bank, the merchant is asked to provide receipts with the signature to match up to the card holder's signature.
any security scheme where most of the work is done on the client is doomed to failure
As a former Apple Retail Specialist, we are specifically told NOT to ask for additional ID, as that would be a violation of Apple's agreements with the credit card companies.
As for refunds for fraudulent transactions, the law requires the customer to get them once the total is over $50. My credit card companies have instantly done all, and contacted me themselves when they felt the transaction is out of line with the ongoing spending pattern they track for me, which is great. I am unaware of what happens between the credit card company and the merchant, but my refunds clearly happened without any checking with the merchants beforehand.
You guys are funny. No information is stored on the device. It's an internet only app, like the youtube app. It's no different than you or I making a purchase, with a credit card, on Safari, on an iPod touch.
As Marvin stated, they would utilize the hybrid system like they do for debit cards (which also require a pin). In Canada at least, we can still use the magnetic strips is a chip reader isn't present.
Debit cards have been around a long time. If they can't do that from the iPod touch, there must be limitations on how the card information and pin is transmitted and verified. Someone else has already suggested that. While I would love an all-in-one system, the fact that it lacks full debit card functionality (more so than the lack of a chip reader) doesn't make that prospect look very promising.
I would have to agree that there must be some limitation when using the Debit system. My debit card can be run as a credit card my bank does not charge me for that. What I find amusing is that from a sellers point of a view a debit card is the more profitable sale. The debit network charges a flat fee where the credit card transaction is a fee + percentage of the sale price. I would have to assume that if its at all possible then Apple will do whatever it takes to make it possible to do debits on these. If for no other reason then to lower their costs on large transactions. The costs associated with credit card transactions is one of the reasons that Walmart so desperately wants to be a bank so that they can reduce or eliminate these costs.
I have no inside information on who makes them. My comment on these being just outside the prototype stage was based on past experience not insider info. I worked at a large distributer and when we switched from a old unix system to a new windows based company wide erp system. We had to switch scanning guns and the first two that we received were actually prototypes that the hardware was finalized but the firmware was still open. We helped debug them by doing data dumps and sending it to both the software developer and the gun manufacturer when we found problems. We got these units at a slight discount for our "help", and later these were able to be used in production although we kept them reserved for debugging purposes as we added new features. I assumed that the first batch that Apple has deployed will probably be similar in that functions are added or refined as Apple shakes them out and bugs are found in actual deployment.
Hence Apple Employees are all remote POS stations. They don't have to bring you anywhere. How stupid do you have to be to not understand that?
Because most Apple Store employees walk around the store ignoring the customers and give no indication to anyone that they can ring up an item for you. So in most cases, it is very easy to look around wondering how to buy something. I have been to the Apple Store a few times and seen that happen, other times the service has been excellent. In some cases, they have also taken me straight to the Genius desk to complete the purchase.
You guys are funny. No information is stored on the device. It's an internet only app, like the youtube app. It's no different than you or I making a purchase, with a credit card, on Safari, on an iPod touch.
How do you know? There is a card reader and scanner attached to the iPod, with a USB port on the bottom. Article says nothing about the operation of the device. Internet purchases are not done on a portable device in the hands of another person.
But if you are gullible enough to think these devices are foolproof and secure, then make your purchases with them. Having your credit/debit card info stolen is the first step in identity theft. I would rather use a fixed point of sale device than a portable hand held device.
Comments
I haven't heard of it, but I can understand it. When you have customers that are accustomed to a different "retail language" (my words, sorry if it already means something different) than what Apple uses, things can be confusing. Unless told otherwise, people expect to take their purchase to an clearly visible fixed horizontal surface beside a large machine that handles the transaction.
What? Best Buy has been using remote POS for YEARS. Circuit City did it. Find an Employee and they'll take you to a department station instead of the counter up front and chek you out. You can't jus go to the station because the employees are on the floor, so you have to find them. Just Like at these Apple stores. The only difference is, Apple removed the desk and computer and instead is using an iPod. Hence Apple Employees are all remote POS stations. They don't have to bring you anywhere. How stupid do you have to be to not understand that?
A portable device that reads credit cards and stores that information, including your signature! In other words, a portable device for stealing someone's identity! No thanks.
Like any other electronic device that is used to read credit cards.
just another chapter in the slow but very real decline of WinMo and its variants.
It?s not looking good for MS, but I am more worried about Motorola?s Symbol business.
These are the first units rolled out, not far from prototypes. There is no reason that a version 2.0 could be rolled out that is able to read the Euro style "chip" credit card. If you notice that the rollout and testing was being done in the usa does it not make sense that they are focusing on their current real world use.
I don?t see any writing on them. Are these made by Apple or a 3rd-party manufacturer?
This looks very nice and completely blows away the old Symbol-EasyPay system. I can imagine quite a lot of demand for the case if it is made available outside Apple, especially if it were made to fit an iPhone. Obviously, you'd need to write your own software to use it (although a general POS app would work for many), but it would be a very elegant solution combined with a BT printer for those situations where you need to print a physical receipt on the spot.
One for the iPhone would be nice. Some phone manufacturers have models with built in CC readers for remote purchases. I can see both types of units being popular, especially when you consider the price of the Symbol devices compared to the price of a Touch + the accessory. Even with a huge markup they should be able to come in well below Motorola?s offering.
Finally a cash register with YouTube!
Does msft devices really way 5 times more? I've felt the ez pay and it's not to heavy but it's but light either, So I can't imagine 5 times heavier.
It sure looks like 5x as heavy. It?s considerably larger. Note, i?s not really a MS device. It?s a Motorola device using WinCE as the OS. This is still very common and will continue to be common for a long time. The Touch my change that for these handheld PoS devices, but WinCE will still have a lot of business elsewhere because Apple chooses to not license their OSes.
What? Best Buy has been using remote POS for YEARS. Circuit City did it. Find an Employee and they'll take you to a department station instead of the counter up front and chek you out. You can't jus go to the station because the employees are on the floor, so you have to find them. Just Like at these Apple stores. The only difference is, Apple removed the desk and computer and instead is using an iPod. Hence Apple Employees are all remote POS stations. They don't have to bring you anywhere. How stupid do you have to be to not understand that?
Not only that, but customers can still line up to pay in back. Although an Apple employee will probably let you know that you don't have to line up to pay.... problem solved. The only problem I have is that I don't want a bag and they email you your receipt, so how do you get out the door?
The only problem I have is that I don't want a bag and they email you your receipt, so how do you get out the door?
Walk?
What? Best Buy has been using remote POS for YEARS. Circuit City did it. Find an Employee and they'll take you to a department station instead of the counter up front and chek you out. You can't jus go to the station because the employees are on the floor, so you have to find them. Just Like at these Apple stores. The only difference is, Apple removed the desk and computer and instead is using an iPod. Hence Apple Employees are all remote POS stations. They don't have to bring you anywhere. How stupid do you have to be to not understand that?
There are stationary registers elsewhere in the building at retail chains, but I've not seen BB use a handheld device for checkout. Other than Apple, the only place I've seen them used in retail was at Sam's Club, and that has been a while too. Sam's club had a pre-scan, the people with the handheld devices didn't take the money that I recall.
Walk?
I don't like walking out of the door with a set of headphones or whatever in hand when it looks like I just snatched them off the rack.
I don't like walking out of the door with a set of headphones or whatever in hand when it looks like I just snatched them off the rack.
In that case, I suggest you pay for them first. Prior payment tends to make for a good alibi and you?ll likely be able to get some free stuff from Apple if they detain you falsely.
Seriously, I?m sure Apple has worked this out when going to the paper-less receipt method
Damn Hillstones, been out much? Portable has nothing to do with that signature reader you sign at grocery stores, Wally World, Costco, Lowes, Home Depot, and a thousand other places - for the last 10 years. Same device, only fixed.
Yes, the difference is that those devices are fixed to the point-of-sale counter and not portable for some employee to take the iPod Touch home and download all the credit card data into his computer. Or, for a customer to steal the handheld device and do the same thing.
I guess you have never heard of servers at restaurants using a portable card reader to steal your credit card information when you go out to eat? It happens more often than you think.
In that case, I suggest you pay for them first. Prior payment tends to make for a good alibi and you?ll likely be able to get some free stuff from Apple if they detain you falsely.
Seriously, I?m sure Apple has worked this out when going to the paper-less receipt method
yeah, I've never had a problem. It is just different
How is this any different than using any other credit card terminal or even the internet? I doubt CC info is stored on the device locally. It's on a server and transmitted with encryption. That doesn't make it any more or less "safe" than any other transaction processing method.
It is different because credit card terminals at stores are permanently fixed to the counter. They are not hand held and small enough to fit into someone's pocket. You don't know if the information is immediately transferred off the device (that USB port on the bottom may be for data transfer and charging of the battery). The article doesn't mention how it works, except that a credit card reader and scanner is attached to the iPod Touch.
Transactions over the internet are not scanned into a portable card reader.
Yes, the difference is that those devices are fixed to the point-of-sale counter and not portable for some employee to take the iPod Touch home and download all the credit card data into his computer. Or, for a customer to steal the handheld device and do the same thing.
I guess you have never heard of servers at restaurants using a portable card reader to steal your credit card information when you go out to eat? It happens more often than you think.
Your initial post made it sound like this is now a problem since these new devices are being used. If you don?t want to use any portable device when using your card, then you have that right, but you?re still not free from thievery. There is ATM malware and false fronts on ATMs to still card numbers and PINs. There is the internet at large and servers with personal information on them. I would guess that these devices do not retain your personal info.
Trying to get any info that may be stored in RAM is not something that can be done easily. I?d also guess that with all these handheld devices, they can be deactivated quickly. This may even have GPS chip in it that can be tracked with Find My iPhone in case it is lost or stolen, something the other devices can?t do.
Then you have CC companies refunding your money right aware and insuring your card. I don?t feel threatened all by the use of these devices and I?m quite paranoid about identity theft. My biggest concern with these devices is not the device itself, but the wireless transmission that can be picked up by anyone, even outside the store, or something calmly shopping around while a device in their pocket is capturing all the data. If they can hack the encryption then they could collect for days, weeks or months and before using the data. Tracking that back to an Apple Store and then to a group or rotating shoppers working the scam would be very difficult.
i don't know about Canada or Europe, but in the US the rules are that the merchant pays for unauthorized credit card use most of the time because they are supposed to check for ID and/or signatures. and they run fraud software in the background to protect against theft. i've seen people with stolen cards get all the charges taken off because once they call the bank, the merchant is asked to provide receipts with the signature to match up to the card holder's signature.
any security scheme where most of the work is done on the client is doomed to failure
As a former Apple Retail Specialist, we are specifically told NOT to ask for additional ID, as that would be a violation of Apple's agreements with the credit card companies.
As for refunds for fraudulent transactions, the law requires the customer to get them once the total is over $50. My credit card companies have instantly done all, and contacted me themselves when they felt the transaction is out of line with the ongoing spending pattern they track for me, which is great. I am unaware of what happens between the credit card company and the merchant, but my refunds clearly happened without any checking with the merchants beforehand.
yeah, I've never had a problem. It is just different
After your next Apple Store purchase, make a mad dash for the door while clenching the product.
As Marvin stated, they would utilize the hybrid system like they do for debit cards (which also require a pin). In Canada at least, we can still use the magnetic strips is a chip reader isn't present.
Debit cards have been around a long time. If they can't do that from the iPod touch, there must be limitations on how the card information and pin is transmitted and verified. Someone else has already suggested that. While I would love an all-in-one system, the fact that it lacks full debit card functionality (more so than the lack of a chip reader) doesn't make that prospect look very promising.
I would have to agree that there must be some limitation when using the Debit system. My debit card can be run as a credit card my bank does not charge me for that. What I find amusing is that from a sellers point of a view a debit card is the more profitable sale. The debit network charges a flat fee where the credit card transaction is a fee + percentage of the sale price. I would have to assume that if its at all possible then Apple will do whatever it takes to make it possible to do debits on these. If for no other reason then to lower their costs on large transactions. The costs associated with credit card transactions is one of the reasons that Walmart so desperately wants to be a bank so that they can reduce or eliminate these costs.
I have no inside information on who makes them. My comment on these being just outside the prototype stage was based on past experience not insider info. I worked at a large distributer and when we switched from a old unix system to a new windows based company wide erp system. We had to switch scanning guns and the first two that we received were actually prototypes that the hardware was finalized but the firmware was still open. We helped debug them by doing data dumps and sending it to both the software developer and the gun manufacturer when we found problems. We got these units at a slight discount for our "help", and later these were able to be used in production although we kept them reserved for debugging purposes as we added new features. I assumed that the first batch that Apple has deployed will probably be similar in that functions are added or refined as Apple shakes them out and bugs are found in actual deployment.
Hence Apple Employees are all remote POS stations. They don't have to bring you anywhere. How stupid do you have to be to not understand that?
Because most Apple Store employees walk around the store ignoring the customers and give no indication to anyone that they can ring up an item for you. So in most cases, it is very easy to look around wondering how to buy something. I have been to the Apple Store a few times and seen that happen, other times the service has been excellent. In some cases, they have also taken me straight to the Genius desk to complete the purchase.
You guys are funny. No information is stored on the device. It's an internet only app, like the youtube app. It's no different than you or I making a purchase, with a credit card, on Safari, on an iPod touch.
How do you know? There is a card reader and scanner attached to the iPod, with a USB port on the bottom. Article says nothing about the operation of the device. Internet purchases are not done on a portable device in the hands of another person.
But if you are gullible enough to think these devices are foolproof and secure, then make your purchases with them. Having your credit/debit card info stolen is the first step in identity theft. I would rather use a fixed point of sale device than a portable hand held device.