I think Fran hit the nail on the head here: Separation of Church and State is supposed to be a tenent of the American constitution.
As for the Pledge of Allegiance, I've been told that the final clause regarding God was added in the 50's. To tell you the truth I don't know if it was the 50's, but my elderly relatives definitely remember a totally secular pledge, as it ended up a topic of conversation during Christmas dinner. All of the references to God were established as anti-communist agenda. (Now I find out THT said this first.) Accounting for the mindless patriotism echoed by the pledge, there is a certain amount of justification for it. In a Catholic school there are religious icons abound, and the glorification of God is a common theme. In a public school, it's only fitting to praise the government that handles the school. Interestingly enough the last time I ever said the pledge was the last day I spent in a public school. (I ended up in perhaps the only secular all boys' school on Earth.)
I personally like the concept of the Pledge, since it does give America credit for being founded on reason and liberty. The problem is that kids just get used to spouting it off each morning and don't stop to think about it. I wish people, adults and kids, would stop to realise the freedom America grants. I also think government should die, but even now, with our government more oppressive than it's ever been, I don't think I could stand to live anywhere else.
Another note. ---
Hey corvette, did you're relatives come this way, oh, around 1917? There's that little episode of genocide that the Turks still deny ever happened.
And I likewise wish the extra minutes it takes to stand up, face the flag and recite the Pledge would be used for actual teaching.
Oftentimes, the things that are overly and invasively emphasized become the least appreciated and understood.
Reducing true appreciation or patriotism to such a meaningless daily ritual is detrimental and redundant.
If my allegiance is not in question, why must I pledge it again and again and again? If I do not pledge one day or another, do I instantly become a traitor?
<strong> Please all you liberals on these boards *cough*nostradomus*cough* please tell your opinion of this, I would love to hear it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow, I've been branded with the infamous "L" label! I just skimmed the article, but offhand it would seem that what they are doing isn't to favorable to Islam. Didn't one of the guys say that he wouldn't teach Christianity this way? Well, that points out a particular irony in that conservatives constantly blast public schools for not teaching subjects correctly and at the same time they want them to teach religion so they screw that up as well.
Ok, seriously, here's my take on some of the issues being raised-
Religion in public schools - It would be quite impossible to teach history without talking about religion. Also, it would be quite impossible to talk about every religion since there have been over 100,000 of them. So it comes down to a matter of relevance and intellectual honesty. If a particular school district decides to slant it's curriculum to only support one religion or to uniformly disparage another then it's being myopic and intellectually dishonest, it has an agenda.
Defining the difference between contextual teaching and prosyletizing is difficult, but throwing out history and art because they might have a religious component is ridiculous. These "zero tolerance" rules serve as a good illustration. While i agree that children shouldn't be allowed to bring guns and knives into school I don't think they should be suspended for having a comb or a ruler (unless a kid is known to beat people with it).
On the pledge of allegiance- I believe children can be forced to stand during the pledge, but they don't have to say it. Also, I think there are some Xians who refuse to say the pledge (maybe the Jehovahs). Regardless, the problem with these little efforts to insert religion into our money and our citizen pledges is that they are one way. After the communist scare was over you didn't see any politicians suggesting that we remove these slogans because they would be branded as heathen atheists.
I've never really got that praying to the flag thing... isn't it kind of blasfemic or something...
No, seriously I'm all with Nordstrodamus on this one... Seems like The US in general could benefit a lot by learning more about the history, culture and religion of the rest of the World...
I have a better idea: we spend resources on more useful stuff like science and math. Religion should be taught at home and you cannot learn 'culture' in the classroom.
Religion in schools is the same no matter what religion it is. It simply does not belong there. Children should however be taught about religion and its effects on culture. Taught... not Preached to. A policy where children would learn about all different religions would help raise tolerance in the future.
My take on all this. If youa re going to teach religious history teach it all from a historical perspective. If you are going to go with the Major religions, then fine. Islam, Christianity, mormonism, Buddhism, etc... Teach the beginnings, some of the history, and then let it rest. Nobody gets hurt.
The Flag salute is a good thing I think. It tells you a few things. One, the flag means something. IT is not just a piece of cloth. (I Pledge allegience to the Flag of the US of A). The US is not a democracy but a republic. (And the the Republice for which it stands). We are a single nation, not a bunch of little countries like south america or Europe. We also have a strong Christian strain. (One Nation, Under God.) We are not easily broken up or defeated. (Indvisible) We have many freedoms and protection from our government that covers everyone. (With liberty and justice for all.)
Not a bad thing. What exactly does it mean to you?
I just realized that G4Dude was talking about that vile impersonator, Nostradamus, not about me. Now I'm sure people are going to confuse us since I did it myself. If you don't like this guy or simply object to nick stealing just stop responding to him.
Also, when I said " I believe children can be forced to stand during the pledge, but they don't have to say it." I meant that I believe this to be the case, not that I endorse that policy.
Also, just wondering if anybody here who likes the pledge would have a problem with someone deciding to say the orginal pledge instead of the evangelized version. What if a school decided to make the orignal standard?
Also, I think there are some Xians who refuse to say the pledge (maybe the Jehovahs).
You mean Jehovah's Witnesses? You know if you knew anything about religion, that Jehovah is the name of the jewish and Christian God and calling them Jehovah is like calling muslims "Allahs" or budhists "Budhas". Also known a Yahweh, although the common English pronounciation is Jehovah. I find it funny that Jewish clerics are forbidden to say it although they recognize it as God's name. No one knows the correct pronounciation sadly. The hebrew language did not have any vowels back when the Old testament was written. Obviously they pronounced their vowels but they only wrote in consonants because it was understood how it should be pronounced. But as the Jewish people became more secular in Jesus time the hebrew written language needed to be updated so they started to put little markings under the letters to denote what vowels needed to be said in that word. But by then the new testament was being written in Greek... But the corresponding hebrew consonants for the name of God were YHWH... So post Roman conquest Jews pronounced it Yaweh... And the English got Jahveh out of it which later turned into Jehovah.
<strong>[i]You mean Jehovah's Witnesses? You know if you knew anything about religion, that Jehovah is the name of the jewish and Christian God and calling them Jehovah is like calling muslims "Allahs" or budhists "Budhas". Also known a Yahweh, although the common English pronounciation ... yadda yadda yadda</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok Cliff Claven, I'm truly dazzled by your encyclopedic spiel. Since you (and everyone else here) obviously got my meaning it would seem that such elaboration is unnecessary and irrelevant to the discussion. "Brevity is the soul of wit"
<strong>Hey I was just pointing out something. Don't get your panties tangled up in a knot.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You made the accusation that my economy with words reflected a lack of knowledge. "If you knew anything about religion..." or something to that effect. That required a response, but rest assured my panties are comfortably loose.
Comments
As for the Pledge of Allegiance, I've been told that the final clause regarding God was added in the 50's. To tell you the truth I don't know if it was the 50's, but my elderly relatives definitely remember a totally secular pledge, as it ended up a topic of conversation during Christmas dinner. All of the references to God were established as anti-communist agenda. (Now I find out THT said this first.) Accounting for the mindless patriotism echoed by the pledge, there is a certain amount of justification for it. In a Catholic school there are religious icons abound, and the glorification of God is a common theme. In a public school, it's only fitting to praise the government that handles the school. Interestingly enough the last time I ever said the pledge was the last day I spent in a public school. (I ended up in perhaps the only secular all boys' school on Earth.)
I personally like the concept of the Pledge, since it does give America credit for being founded on reason and liberty. The problem is that kids just get used to spouting it off each morning and don't stop to think about it. I wish people, adults and kids, would stop to realise the freedom America grants. I also think government should die, but even now, with our government more oppressive than it's ever been, I don't think I could stand to live anywhere else.
Another note. ---
Hey corvette, did you're relatives come this way, oh, around 1917? There's that little episode of genocide that the Turks still deny ever happened.
[ 01-13-2002: Message edited by: Splinemodel ]</p>
Oftentimes, the things that are overly and invasively emphasized become the least appreciated and understood.
Reducing true appreciation or patriotism to such a meaningless daily ritual is detrimental and redundant.
If my allegiance is not in question, why must I pledge it again and again and again? If I do not pledge one day or another, do I instantly become a traitor?
<strong> Please all you liberals on these boards *cough*nostradomus*cough* please tell your opinion of this, I would love to hear it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wow, I've been branded with the infamous "L" label! I just skimmed the article, but offhand it would seem that what they are doing isn't to favorable to Islam. Didn't one of the guys say that he wouldn't teach Christianity this way? Well, that points out a particular irony in that conservatives constantly blast public schools for not teaching subjects correctly and at the same time they want them to teach religion so they screw that up as well.
Ok, seriously, here's my take on some of the issues being raised-
Religion in public schools - It would be quite impossible to teach history without talking about religion. Also, it would be quite impossible to talk about every religion since there have been over 100,000 of them. So it comes down to a matter of relevance and intellectual honesty. If a particular school district decides to slant it's curriculum to only support one religion or to uniformly disparage another then it's being myopic and intellectually dishonest, it has an agenda.
Defining the difference between contextual teaching and prosyletizing is difficult, but throwing out history and art because they might have a religious component is ridiculous. These "zero tolerance" rules serve as a good illustration. While i agree that children shouldn't be allowed to bring guns and knives into school I don't think they should be suspended for having a comb or a ruler (unless a kid is known to beat people with it).
On the pledge of allegiance- I believe children can be forced to stand during the pledge, but they don't have to say it. Also, I think there are some Xians who refuse to say the pledge (maybe the Jehovahs). Regardless, the problem with these little efforts to insert religion into our money and our citizen pledges is that they are one way. After the communist scare was over you didn't see any politicians suggesting that we remove these slogans because they would be branded as heathen atheists.
<strong>I'd rather have my patriotism defined by my individual beliefs...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fair enough but reciting the pledge still isn't brainwashing.
No, seriously I'm all with Nordstrodamus on this one... Seems like The US in general could benefit a lot by learning more about the history, culture and religion of the rest of the World...
Religion in schools is the same no matter what religion it is. It simply does not belong there. Children should however be taught about religion and its effects on culture. Taught... not Preached to. A policy where children would learn about all different religions would help raise tolerance in the future.
The Flag salute is a good thing I think. It tells you a few things. One, the flag means something. IT is not just a piece of cloth. (I Pledge allegience to the Flag of the US of A). The US is not a democracy but a republic. (And the the Republice for which it stands). We are a single nation, not a bunch of little countries like south america or Europe. We also have a strong Christian strain. (One Nation, Under God.) We are not easily broken up or defeated. (Indvisible) We have many freedoms and protection from our government that covers everyone. (With liberty and justice for all.)
Not a bad thing. What exactly does it mean to you?
I just realized that G4Dude was talking about that vile impersonator, Nostradamus, not about me. Now I'm sure people are going to confuse us since I did it myself. If you don't like this guy or simply object to nick stealing just stop responding to him.
Also, when I said " I believe children can be forced to stand during the pledge, but they don't have to say it." I meant that I believe this to be the case, not that I endorse that policy.
Also, just wondering if anybody here who likes the pledge would have a problem with someone deciding to say the orginal pledge instead of the evangelized version. What if a school decided to make the orignal standard?
You mean Jehovah's Witnesses? You know if you knew anything about religion, that Jehovah is the name of the jewish and Christian God and calling them Jehovah is like calling muslims "Allahs" or budhists "Budhas". Also known a Yahweh, although the common English pronounciation is Jehovah. I find it funny that Jewish clerics are forbidden to say it although they recognize it as God's name. No one knows the correct pronounciation sadly. The hebrew language did not have any vowels back when the Old testament was written. Obviously they pronounced their vowels but they only wrote in consonants because it was understood how it should be pronounced. But as the Jewish people became more secular in Jesus time the hebrew written language needed to be updated so they started to put little markings under the letters to denote what vowels needed to be said in that word. But by then the new testament was being written in Greek... But the corresponding hebrew consonants for the name of God were YHWH... So post Roman conquest Jews pronounced it Yaweh... And the English got Jahveh out of it which later turned into Jehovah.
[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Outsider ]</p>
<strong>[i]You mean Jehovah's Witnesses? You know if you knew anything about religion, that Jehovah is the name of the jewish and Christian God and calling them Jehovah is like calling muslims "Allahs" or budhists "Budhas". Also known a Yahweh, although the common English pronounciation ... yadda yadda yadda</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok Cliff Claven, I'm truly dazzled by your encyclopedic spiel. Since you (and everyone else here) obviously got my meaning it would seem that such elaboration is unnecessary and irrelevant to the discussion. "Brevity is the soul of wit"
[ 01-15-2002: Message edited by: Nordstrodamus ]</p>
<strong>Hey I was just pointing out something. Don't get your panties tangled up in a knot.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You made the accusation that my economy with words reflected a lack of knowledge. "If you knew anything about religion..." or something to that effect. That required a response, but rest assured my panties are comfortably loose.