I know - it used to be a such a civil place on here when I first started and then it became so polarizing once Apple stopped selling matte screens and Windows 7 became a hit.
How is Windows 7 doing by the way? I know they said initial sales were strong. I've been running it for about a year on bootcamp. It's done fine for the most part, but one of my Macbooks is starting to show signs of sluggish boot, and a slammed CPU on startup that was so common under XP, and pervasive under Vista.
I don't know what it is about AI, but too many of the folks on here are rude as hell. You could have said as much without being so inflammatory. I happen to agree with your sentiment, but not with your style of reply. Would you want to be spoken to in such a way?
I really wish there was a better moderation system with real teeth in place here.
I don't agree. As someone who's often painted with that same "rudeness" brush (mostly undeserved), I don't think this post stands out as especially rude except perhaps the first and last sentences. The meat of what is being said here is true and is simply stated.
Even so, "beating up" on a other posters for making stupid or unintelligible remarks is negative, but not necessarily "bad" IMO. If people are not corrected, they won't ever learn. This isn't a self esteem society, it's a debating area.
I find the constant non-sequitors by actors like teckstud, and the constant crap-stream from people who just come here to drop one liners about how they hate Apple to be far "ruder." They also have the failing of being completely un-constructive, uninformative, and useless in almost every way. They make other people angry, without contributing anything at all.
Anyone who's actually trying to say something and can be engaged in a debate is already worthwhile IMO however rude they may get. If they are also "nice" at least some of the time, well, then I guess that makes them human, you know? No one is nice all the time.
How is Windows 7 doing by the way? I know they said initial sales were strong. I've been running it for about a year on bootcamp. It's done fine for the most part, but one of my Macbooks is starting to show signs of sluggish boot, and a slammed CPU on startup that was so common under XP, and pervasive under Vista.
I heard that box sales of Windows 7 have done very well, but I'm also hearing that system sales with Windows 7 not so much. That's not going to save the PC industry.
anyone have any help on how to get back my recordings ?
It sounds like something has reset your EyeTV's 'EyeTV Archive' setting (and I can't believe that an OS X update would actually cause that) - go to Preferences and re-point it to where you keep it.
I don't agree. As someone who's often painted with that same "rudeness" brush (mostly undeserved), I don't think this post stands out as especially rude except perhaps the first and last sentences. The meat of what is being said here is true and is simply stated.
Even so, "beating up" on a other posters for making stupid or unintelligible remarks is negative, but not necessarily "bad" IMO. If people are not corrected, they won't ever learn. This isn't a self esteem society, it's a debating area.
I find the constant non-sequitors by actors like teckstud, and the constant crap-stream from people who just come here to drop one liners about how they hate Apple to be far "ruder." They also have the failing of being completely un-constructive, uninformative, and useless in almost every way. They make other people angry, without contributing anything at all.
Anyone who's actually trying to say something and can be engaged in a debate is already worthwhile IMO however rude they may get. If they are also "nice" at least some of the time, well, then I guess that makes them human, you know? No one is nice all the time.
I also agreed with the 'meat' of what was said, but it was a poor choice of words, and inflammatory (flamebait). No need to encourage that kind of attitude IMO.
The only 'market' there is for people who put together home built PC's for dirt cheap, meaning there's no profit for Apple. Makes sense for them to prevent hackintosh from a business perspective. I would guesstimate that a large portion of that community probably didn't even bother to buy OS X, but downloaded it via Torrent.
This is it in a nutshell. People can argue for days that they help rather than hurt Apple (which is not my view), but Apple is smart enough to know that the time to act on protecting your intellectual property is when the people glomming it have zero potential of becoming customers.
I heard that box sales of Windows 7 have done very well, but I'm also hearing that system sales with Windows 7 not so much. That's not going to save the PC industry.
The economy is far from robust and we will have to see the figures after the holidays to see how well new PCs are selling with it pre-installed.
Good god, this again? There is no netbook "boat". Never was, never will be. Its more of a rounding error than anything else. If people want a Mac, they can buy a Mac. I'm tired of people passing off P.O.S. netbooks as if they are a legitimate alternative to get started with OSX. They're not legitimate, nor a GOOD OSX experience. I would never recommend one to anyone, and no one seriously considering buying a Mac would ever opt for such a piece of crap.
Oh, right, except the current Mac user that has 4 pieces of hardware he's bored with, so he wastes some money on a Dell just so he can hack it and feel better for a few hours. Great.
You sound like Ballmer with the "rounding error" bit.
I didn't buy the netbook rather I won it at a conference and it isn't a POS, but that's my opinion kind of like yours.
Acer is beating the pants off of Dell for marketshare and soon HP solely based on their netbook sales and they are still making a profit.
While I'm sure Apple is keeping options open in their internal work work on OS X (as they maintained working x86 builds for many years before they went intel) how is it that people keep saying that they have **dropped support for** Atom processors?
Apple has never **been supporting** Atom processors and they continue not to support them. Any notion to the contrary is simply delusional.
No sorry genius, not everything else is irrational. This might be the most useless post in this entire thread. Its certainly the only one to suggest that this wasn't intentional on Apple's part. LOL, wow w.a.f.i. For most people, this is it. As soon as the OS can't by updated anymore, the game is over.
In your infinite wisdom, explain to us how purposely cutting off netbooks in v10.6.2 disables the hackintosh community? Oh, that?s right, it doesn?t. 10.6.2 bug fixes with Atom support is being added right now and other Intel and AMD support. Seriously, I?d like to hear your play -by-play on Apple?s big conspiracy to knock out Atom-based hackintoshs on 10.6.2 but no other hackintosh and only at a point release update.
So for a $349 base price I can do what the Mini can and have a keyboard, glidepad (mouse essentially), and a monitor for $250 less. I could almost buy two of them. And the Mini is visually more appealing.
Great. How much profit does that make for Apple? Apple doesn't want to compete in a market where profit margins are razor thin just to satisfy some geeks on forums. It's that simple.
The danger in making these is that it will cannibalize sales of MacBooks. MacBooks have healthy profit margins for Apple. Netbooks wouldn't. Apple knows this.
I have an iBook, MacBook, AppleTV, iPhone, TimeCapsule, mobileMe, iPods and iMac from Apple. So I know their quality and longlievity.
I do have a Hackintosh too. And guess what ? I like it. Its small, its light, its (replaceable) battery [not that I acre] lasts 5.5 - 6 hours for the basic things that i do most of the day with a/any PC. Write mails, work, internet browsing, content sharing.
No it is not for content creation. But plugging in a camera and uploading the pics to facebook and mobileMe works a treat. Now why on earth would I wanna do that with a windows machine, given the rest of my config
Fair Point. But you are the minority. I guess the mactablet will wonderfully suit you then, I know it will suit me a lot, I am eagerly anticipating it.
They would like be in the top 5 but how much would it increase their value as a company if they are now selling Macs with razor thin margins? How would it hurt the long term value of the Mac brand if they sold Macs that compete with the cheaply built netbooks? Could Apple even compete with these cheap machines without resorting to selling out to 3rd-party vendors by loading crapware on the systems?
Complete agreement.
People just don't get that, in order to be able to manufacture and sell an ultra-cheap PC at a profit, you need to do one or more of the following:
Use components which are manufactured as cheaply as possible. After which you need to compensate for all of the problems created by those components in your operating system. Which is part of the reason why Windows PCs have had so many problems over the years (and why Microsoft has taken a long time to develop new versions of their OS which are backwards compatible with all of the crap hardware which has been used in PCs in the past).
Accept money from other software companies who want to bundle their crapware with your operating system. Sorry, but I'm not interested in having to uninstall a bunch of bloatware/adware which came with my PC.
Outsource a good chunk of your software and hardware engineering to areas of the world where labour is cheaper.
All of which Apple is not willing to do as they tend to negatively affect the positive experience Apple has worked very hard to create with their software and hardware.
The hackintosh community isnt going anywhere, simple as that. You know there will be a work around for 10.6.2 by the end of this week for netbooks.
Everyone loves to hate the Atom but fact of the matter is the shit works and quite well. For content consumption a netbook works remarkably well (and i own a Dell Mini 10v hackintosh) but thats about the extent of it. Your not gonna plow through Final Cut or Photoshop...your telling me Apple cant find a market for this?
Everyone loves to act like a fucking snob here because they think owning anything Mac puts them in some elite class but simply put Apple COULD make a netbook and price it aggressively at 499 or 549 (that is well above the average 299 netbook and that provides that glorious apple tax apple likes to rape consumers on and mac users love to spout on about). Maybe this is some kind of segment the Tablet is going after? Still we know that with an iphone at the price of 499 itself it isnt going to be cheap and probably will be astronomical.
Anyways look at it without bias. You sell a mobile PC for 499, it isnt customizable (1.6ghz Atom, 120GB HD, 2GB RAM, No optical drives, decent display) and people love it. Say they then go on to buy another computer that does more, if they had a great experience on the mac they will most likely GO BACK...its not that hard of a concept to grasp.
While I'm sure Apple is keeping options open in their internal work work on OS X (as they maintained working x86 builds for many years before they went intel) how is it that people keep saying that they have **dropped support for** Atom processors?
Apple has never **been supporting** Atom processors and they continue not to support them. Any notion to the contrary is simply delusional.
Duh!
There never was any real code to "support" Atom. Atom runs any OS that uses x86 code (assuming the chipset drivers are compatible). This is actually Apple doing some kind of CPU sniffing and nuking the OS if it finds Atom. So it's not a matter of removing code to "drop support" so much as adding code to search and destroy. What can be added can be stripped out. I doubt this will last more than a few weeks at most.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damn_Its_Hot
I disagree - I think Apple cutoff support to cutoff the Netbooks. I don't blame them and applaud them for protecting what is theirs. How could they let this slide while Psystar is out there stealing from them and they are fighting it in court. The quicker the get rid of Psystar the faster they will be able to concentrate on the real paying customers (and before someone says it- no buying an OS that is supposed to be for an upgrade is not the same - just cause some don't agree EULA does not mean that was not Apple's intent in selling it with those conditions attached).
Uh, do you realize that Atom and netbooks have nothing to do with Psystar? Psystar not only doesn't make netbooks, they don't sell any laptops whatsoever, Atom-powered or otherwise.
I'm new here but have hackintoshed my computer a while back and have to admit it took a lot of work to get one up and running. It ran smoothly with a few quirks which is why I change to 7 (the mac-ish vista service pack 3 IMO) even though I didn't want to.
I believe Apple meant to disable Atom and they were right in doing so. If they open the OS up to everyone, then apple-geared viruses will startup full time and I don't think it's ready for that. Making hackintoshes (and pyslar whatever) inconvenient alternatives is important to cripple hackers therefore, apple can buy itself more time to strengthen the OS security. Hackintoshing requires quite a bit of skill because you need to know the inner workings of the OS aka "hackers' territory".
I've been slowly saving up for either the Macbook pro or the tablet and can't wait to switch!
I believe Apple meant to disable Atom and they were right in doing so. If they open the OS up to everyone, then apple-geared viruses will startup full time and I don't think it's ready for that. Making hackintoshes (and pyslar whatever) inconvenient alternatives is important to cripple hackers therefore, apple can buy itself more time to strengthen the OS security.
That's completely wrong. Whether OS X is running on Apple hardware or not has absolutely no bearing on the presence or absence of malware.
Everyone loves to act like a fucking snob here because they think owning anything Mac puts them in some elite class but simply put Apple COULD make a netbook and price it aggressively at 499 or 549 (that is well above the average 299 netbook and that provides that glorious apple tax apple likes to rape consumers on and mac users love to spout on about).
I want to live in a world where software and hardware designers are paid as little as possible so that we can all have the cheapest computers. Not to mention zero innovation because it's much cheaper to just copy what's already been done than to invest in R&D for new products (ala the multitude of iPhone knockoffs).
I'm not saying that the "Apple tax" completely goes into hiring highly skilled engineers and R&D, but I'd be willing to bet a good chunk of it does when you take a look at Apple's track record of products in the past 10 years (as compared to competitors like Dell/Acer/Microsoft).
I'm not a mindless company supporter... I simply like to support whoever I think is taking technology in the direction which is best in my eyes. And right now, for me, that's Apple. I think a lot of other people working in the tech industry would agree.
However, if/when Apple goes in the direction of the technology lock-in game (Microsoft's business model) and/or only feeding the shareholders with minimal R&D investment (as they did in the 90s) then I'll switch to supporting someone else.
That's completely wrong. Whether OS X is running on Apple hardware or not has absolutely no bearing on the presence or absence of malware.
You're absolutely right but I meant there will be more than what there is now because OS X is more abundant therefore more inciting to infect, steal credentials, whatever. I'm sure there are a quite a few out there and growing. I'm an enthusiast not a guru so correct me if I'm wrong. Learning never gets old
Comments
I know - it used to be a such a civil place on here when I first started and then it became so polarizing once Apple stopped selling matte screens and Windows 7 became a hit.
How is Windows 7 doing by the way? I know they said initial sales were strong. I've been running it for about a year on bootcamp. It's done fine for the most part, but one of my Macbooks is starting to show signs of sluggish boot, and a slammed CPU on startup that was so common under XP, and pervasive under Vista.
I don't know what it is about AI, but too many of the folks on here are rude as hell. You could have said as much without being so inflammatory. I happen to agree with your sentiment, but not with your style of reply. Would you want to be spoken to in such a way?
I really wish there was a better moderation system with real teeth in place here.
I don't agree. As someone who's often painted with that same "rudeness" brush (mostly undeserved), I don't think this post stands out as especially rude except perhaps the first and last sentences. The meat of what is being said here is true and is simply stated.
Even so, "beating up" on a other posters for making stupid or unintelligible remarks is negative, but not necessarily "bad" IMO. If people are not corrected, they won't ever learn. This isn't a self esteem society, it's a debating area.
I find the constant non-sequitors by actors like teckstud, and the constant crap-stream from people who just come here to drop one liners about how they hate Apple to be far "ruder." They also have the failing of being completely un-constructive, uninformative, and useless in almost every way. They make other people angry, without contributing anything at all.
Anyone who's actually trying to say something and can be engaged in a debate is already worthwhile IMO however rude they may get. If they are also "nice" at least some of the time, well, then I guess that makes them human, you know? No one is nice all the time.
How is Windows 7 doing by the way? I know they said initial sales were strong. I've been running it for about a year on bootcamp. It's done fine for the most part, but one of my Macbooks is starting to show signs of sluggish boot, and a slammed CPU on startup that was so common under XP, and pervasive under Vista.
I heard that box sales of Windows 7 have done very well, but I'm also hearing that system sales with Windows 7 not so much. That's not going to save the PC industry.
anyone have any help on how to get back my recordings ?
It sounds like something has reset your EyeTV's 'EyeTV Archive' setting (and I can't believe that an OS X update would actually cause that) - go to Preferences and re-point it to where you keep it.
I don't agree. As someone who's often painted with that same "rudeness" brush (mostly undeserved), I don't think this post stands out as especially rude except perhaps the first and last sentences. The meat of what is being said here is true and is simply stated.
Even so, "beating up" on a other posters for making stupid or unintelligible remarks is negative, but not necessarily "bad" IMO. If people are not corrected, they won't ever learn. This isn't a self esteem society, it's a debating area.
I find the constant non-sequitors by actors like teckstud, and the constant crap-stream from people who just come here to drop one liners about how they hate Apple to be far "ruder." They also have the failing of being completely un-constructive, uninformative, and useless in almost every way. They make other people angry, without contributing anything at all.
Anyone who's actually trying to say something and can be engaged in a debate is already worthwhile IMO however rude they may get. If they are also "nice" at least some of the time, well, then I guess that makes them human, you know? No one is nice all the time.
I also agreed with the 'meat' of what was said, but it was a poor choice of words, and inflammatory (flamebait). No need to encourage that kind of attitude IMO.
The only 'market' there is for people who put together home built PC's for dirt cheap, meaning there's no profit for Apple. Makes sense for them to prevent hackintosh from a business perspective. I would guesstimate that a large portion of that community probably didn't even bother to buy OS X, but downloaded it via Torrent.
This is it in a nutshell. People can argue for days that they help rather than hurt Apple (which is not my view), but Apple is smart enough to know that the time to act on protecting your intellectual property is when the people glomming it have zero potential of becoming customers.
I heard that box sales of Windows 7 have done very well, but I'm also hearing that system sales with Windows 7 not so much. That's not going to save the PC industry.
The economy is far from robust and we will have to see the figures after the holidays to see how well new PCs are selling with it pre-installed.
Good god, this again? There is no netbook "boat". Never was, never will be. Its more of a rounding error than anything else. If people want a Mac, they can buy a Mac. I'm tired of people passing off P.O.S. netbooks as if they are a legitimate alternative to get started with OSX. They're not legitimate, nor a GOOD OSX experience. I would never recommend one to anyone, and no one seriously considering buying a Mac would ever opt for such a piece of crap.
Oh, right, except the current Mac user that has 4 pieces of hardware he's bored with, so he wastes some money on a Dell just so he can hack it and feel better for a few hours. Great.
You sound like Ballmer with the "rounding error" bit.
I didn't buy the netbook rather I won it at a conference and it isn't a POS, but that's my opinion kind of like yours.
Acer is beating the pants off of Dell for marketshare and soon HP solely based on their netbook sales and they are still making a profit.
Apple has never **been supporting** Atom processors and they continue not to support them. Any notion to the contrary is simply delusional.
Duh!
No sorry genius, not everything else is irrational. This might be the most useless post in this entire thread. Its certainly the only one to suggest that this wasn't intentional on Apple's part. LOL, wow w.a.f.i. For most people, this is it. As soon as the OS can't by updated anymore, the game is over.
In your infinite wisdom, explain to us how purposely cutting off netbooks in v10.6.2 disables the hackintosh community? Oh, that?s right, it doesn?t. 10.6.2 bug fixes with Atom support is being added right now and other Intel and AMD support. Seriously, I?d like to hear your play -by-play on Apple?s big conspiracy to knock out Atom-based hackintoshs on 10.6.2 but no other hackintosh and only at a point release update.
So for a $349 base price I can do what the Mini can and have a keyboard, glidepad (mouse essentially), and a monitor for $250 less. I could almost buy two of them. And the Mini is visually more appealing.
Great. How much profit does that make for Apple? Apple doesn't want to compete in a market where profit margins are razor thin just to satisfy some geeks on forums. It's that simple.
The danger in making these is that it will cannibalize sales of MacBooks. MacBooks have healthy profit margins for Apple. Netbooks wouldn't. Apple knows this.
Why don't people here realize this?
I have an iBook, MacBook, AppleTV, iPhone, TimeCapsule, mobileMe, iPods and iMac from Apple. So I know their quality and longlievity.
I do have a Hackintosh too. And guess what ? I like it. Its small, its light, its (replaceable) battery [not that I acre] lasts 5.5 - 6 hours for the basic things that i do most of the day with a/any PC. Write mails, work, internet browsing, content sharing.
No it is not for content creation. But plugging in a camera and uploading the pics to facebook and mobileMe works a treat. Now why on earth would I wanna do that with a windows machine, given the rest of my config
Fair Point. But you are the minority. I guess the mactablet will wonderfully suit you then, I know it will suit me a lot, I am eagerly anticipating it.
Anyone else finding the size of this update to be substantially less than the 400 MB? On all 4 of my Mac's, it's coming in at 200 MB or so.
nevermind
They would like be in the top 5 but how much would it increase their value as a company if they are now selling Macs with razor thin margins? How would it hurt the long term value of the Mac brand if they sold Macs that compete with the cheaply built netbooks? Could Apple even compete with these cheap machines without resorting to selling out to 3rd-party vendors by loading crapware on the systems?
Complete agreement.
People just don't get that, in order to be able to manufacture and sell an ultra-cheap PC at a profit, you need to do one or more of the following:
- Use components which are manufactured as cheaply as possible. After which you need to compensate for all of the problems created by those components in your operating system. Which is part of the reason why Windows PCs have had so many problems over the years (and why Microsoft has taken a long time to develop new versions of their OS which are backwards compatible with all of the crap hardware which has been used in PCs in the past).
- Accept money from other software companies who want to bundle their crapware with your operating system. Sorry, but I'm not interested in having to uninstall a bunch of bloatware/adware which came with my PC.
- Outsource a good chunk of your software and hardware engineering to areas of the world where labour is cheaper.
All of which Apple is not willing to do as they tend to negatively affect the positive experience Apple has worked very hard to create with their software and hardware.The hackintosh community isnt going anywhere, simple as that. You know there will be a work around for 10.6.2 by the end of this week for netbooks.
Everyone loves to hate the Atom but fact of the matter is the shit works and quite well. For content consumption a netbook works remarkably well (and i own a Dell Mini 10v hackintosh) but thats about the extent of it. Your not gonna plow through Final Cut or Photoshop...your telling me Apple cant find a market for this?
Everyone loves to act like a fucking snob here because they think owning anything Mac puts them in some elite class but simply put Apple COULD make a netbook and price it aggressively at 499 or 549 (that is well above the average 299 netbook and that provides that glorious apple tax apple likes to rape consumers on and mac users love to spout on about). Maybe this is some kind of segment the Tablet is going after? Still we know that with an iphone at the price of 499 itself it isnt going to be cheap and probably will be astronomical.
Anyways look at it without bias. You sell a mobile PC for 499, it isnt customizable (1.6ghz Atom, 120GB HD, 2GB RAM, No optical drives, decent display) and people love it. Say they then go on to buy another computer that does more, if they had a great experience on the mac they will most likely GO BACK...its not that hard of a concept to grasp.
While I'm sure Apple is keeping options open in their internal work work on OS X (as they maintained working x86 builds for many years before they went intel) how is it that people keep saying that they have **dropped support for** Atom processors?
Apple has never **been supporting** Atom processors and they continue not to support them. Any notion to the contrary is simply delusional.
Duh!
There never was any real code to "support" Atom. Atom runs any OS that uses x86 code (assuming the chipset drivers are compatible). This is actually Apple doing some kind of CPU sniffing and nuking the OS if it finds Atom. So it's not a matter of removing code to "drop support" so much as adding code to search and destroy. What can be added can be stripped out. I doubt this will last more than a few weeks at most.
I disagree - I think Apple cutoff support to cutoff the Netbooks. I don't blame them and applaud them for protecting what is theirs. How could they let this slide while Psystar is out there stealing from them and they are fighting it in court. The quicker the get rid of Psystar the faster they will be able to concentrate on the real paying customers (and before someone says it- no buying an OS that is supposed to be for an upgrade is not the same - just cause some don't agree EULA does not mean that was not Apple's intent in selling it with those conditions attached).
Uh, do you realize that Atom and netbooks have nothing to do with Psystar? Psystar not only doesn't make netbooks, they don't sell any laptops whatsoever, Atom-powered or otherwise.
I believe Apple meant to disable Atom and they were right in doing so. If they open the OS up to everyone, then apple-geared viruses will startup full time and I don't think it's ready for that. Making hackintoshes (and pyslar whatever) inconvenient alternatives is important to cripple hackers therefore, apple can buy itself more time to strengthen the OS security. Hackintoshing requires quite a bit of skill because you need to know the inner workings of the OS aka "hackers' territory".
I've been slowly saving up for either the Macbook pro or the tablet and can't wait to switch!
I believe Apple meant to disable Atom and they were right in doing so. If they open the OS up to everyone, then apple-geared viruses will startup full time and I don't think it's ready for that. Making hackintoshes (and pyslar whatever) inconvenient alternatives is important to cripple hackers therefore, apple can buy itself more time to strengthen the OS security.
That's completely wrong. Whether OS X is running on Apple hardware or not has absolutely no bearing on the presence or absence of malware.
Everyone loves to act like a fucking snob here because they think owning anything Mac puts them in some elite class but simply put Apple COULD make a netbook and price it aggressively at 499 or 549 (that is well above the average 299 netbook and that provides that glorious apple tax apple likes to rape consumers on and mac users love to spout on about).
I want to live in a world where software and hardware designers are paid as little as possible so that we can all have the cheapest computers. Not to mention zero innovation because it's much cheaper to just copy what's already been done than to invest in R&D for new products (ala the multitude of iPhone knockoffs).
I'm not saying that the "Apple tax" completely goes into hiring highly skilled engineers and R&D, but I'd be willing to bet a good chunk of it does when you take a look at Apple's track record of products in the past 10 years (as compared to competitors like Dell/Acer/Microsoft).
I'm not a mindless company supporter... I simply like to support whoever I think is taking technology in the direction which is best in my eyes. And right now, for me, that's Apple. I think a lot of other people working in the tech industry would agree.
However, if/when Apple goes in the direction of the technology lock-in game (Microsoft's business model) and/or only feeding the shareholders with minimal R&D investment (as they did in the 90s) then I'll switch to supporting someone else.
That's completely wrong. Whether OS X is running on Apple hardware or not has absolutely no bearing on the presence or absence of malware.
You're absolutely right but I meant there will be more than what there is now because OS X is more abundant therefore more inciting to infect, steal credentials, whatever. I'm sure there are a quite a few out there and growing. I'm an enthusiast not a guru so correct me if I'm wrong. Learning never gets old