Is the treatment of Taleban and al-Qaeda terror suspects counter-productive?
Reply 21 of 154
January 20, 2002 4:02PM
For all of you who still do not seem to understand what I am actually getting at, namely that the U.S. is shooting herself in the foot, may I suggest to go here <a href="
; for some informative reading.
BTW it is my understanding that the reports of the Red Cross will remain confidential.
Whilst I can understand the passion with which people - and not exclusively U.S. citizens - view the situation and form (and express) their opinions, I am maintaining that what is happening in Camp-X is counter-productive to the cause, inasmuch that the U.S. is going to alianate herself from a large part of the free world. Now you tell me if that, as far as solving this huge problem, is a positive thing to happen.
, if you can't see what might, just might be objectionable, then I cannot argue my case with you any further.
[quote]Having said, that, they have perfectly adequate food and shelter given to them. Also, our interrogation methods do not include physical or psychological torture. We show a LOT of grace towards these animals.<hr></blockquote>Hmmm... That is open to interpretation, and you can already see how the world outside the U.S. is interpreting. And do not be surprised if the reaction is going to get stronger by the day. You can now, of course, say, to hell with the rest of the world, but remember that a lot of Americans after Sep. 11th asked, "Why does everyone hate us so?"
The foes of the U.S. will grab this chance and fan the flames of hate even further.
It is not even that the prisoners, provided they are all guilty of what they have not been charged with yet, are being touched by it all. You can bet that they relish their moment of glory. We are not dealing with ordinary prisoners here but with fanatics. So from that aspect too the treatment of them is counter-productive.
I am trying to be the Devil's Advocate here, but my personal opinion also is, that what is happening in Cuba is counter-productive.
Reply 22 of 154
January 20, 2002 4:17PM
(Why do I feel like that's an insult?
), we have gone a little off-topic.
It's inevitable that as time passes, people are going to find these kind of measures less than savoury. It's all about perspective, how personally affected you were by events. What your religious and political beliefs are.
The people that are objecting to this treatment of the prisoners have a right to condone the US, and that feeling will grow as time passes and the initial sting of events numbs.
Instead of asking the Canadian Prime Minister or Amnesty International how they feel, how about going to interview the young woman in Afghanistan who dared to be seen without her bourkha, was branded "vain" by the Taleban, and had her breasts removed with a kitchen knife. I'm sure she's sad these guys are having to crap in tin pales.
Reply 23 of 154
January 20, 2002 4:21PM
I don't give a flying **** what the rest of the world thinks. They can all go to hell if they don't like it. I've lost any ounce of sympathy, mercy or respect for the animals. Good for you if you still have some. Maybe some day everyone will feel that way again.
Reply 24 of 154
January 20, 2002 4:28PM
I don't think you get it Member. I don't give a shit what a bunch of America hating brits think. If they don't like **** them. They need us more than we need them. Afghans don't like it? **** them. The Saudis should have been told to **** off years ago, murdering no good crap bag they are. France has always been 100% useless, so **** them. The Rusians don't care so they can stick around.
Reply 25 of 154
January 20, 2002 4:36PM
[quote]Originally posted by Scott H.:
<strong>I don't give a shit what a bunch of America hating brits think.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I realise you're just having a general rant, but this sentence gives the impression that you got this idea of "America hating brits" from the article
At no point in the article does it say any of the quoted individuals are British.
[ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</p>
Reply 26 of 154
January 20, 2002 4:40PM
Innocent until proven guilty I say - treat them fairly and give them a fair trial. America doesn't rule the world - it wants to - but sorry it can't ignore international rules or justice.
What has happened over the last week has change my opinion of America. After S11 - I had sympathy for your country - now I have pity...
Reply 27 of 154
January 20, 2002 4:42PM
[quote]Originally posted by iDome:
<strong>Innocent until proven guilty</strong><hr></blockquote>
Innocent until proven guilty of what, though?
Reply 28 of 154
January 20, 2002 6:01PM
Reading some your contributions here, I can see the passion rising, which is understandable, but the word short-sighted comes to mind.
The title of this topic is, "Is the treatment of Taleban and al-Qaeda terror suspects counter-productive?" Or in other words, is it achieving any aims that will help to *solve* the situation, and if anyone thinks that it is, then I would like to know what exactly these aims are, because so far this is beginning to look like nothing but one hell of a P.R. disaster, and I do not think that that is any way productive, but that it can only do a lot of damage to the cause that is being fought.
You cannot afford to ignore the effects of bad P.R., especially not in politics, not in local politics, and certainly not in world politics. Find out at your peril.
, I do not have any sympathy with the ones who are guilty of what we all presume them to be guilty of, but shouldn't it make Americans think a bit further than the tip of their noses when *universal concern* is being raised? Sticking your head in the sand, will not make the issue, and it is an issue now, go away.
, "America hating Brits"? You can read, can't you? It is *not* just the Brits, the strongest ally of the U.S. so far, but the concern has come from many other countries too. So it's we, the U.S., do and never mind what our friends, not to mention our enemies think? I don't think that this approach will work somehow.
I think what is needed here is cool decision making at the highest level, and not just a short-term demonstration of might, that will pacify, what looks like the majority of American (voter)s.
Now is not the time for vengeance, the stakes are much, much higher than that.
Reply 29 of 154
samantha joanne ollendale
January 20, 2002 6:36PM
[quote]I don't give a flying **** what the rest of the world thinks.<hr></blockquote>
There is the worlds terrorist problem in a nutshell. When communication between parties ceases, or one party is so arrogant as to feel communication is a form of "losing face" there's the perfect recipe for warfare. Authoritarian regimes are also to blame for fostering terrorism, where unapproved groups are rendered powerless and or voiceless...and resort to non-legitimate ways to make their point. And hardly surprisingly, a big terror plot has been brewing in Singapore, which is a very long way from being a free society.
[quote]I don't give a shit what a bunch of America hating brits think.<hr></blockquote>
More BS! The Brits are the US closest allies; whatever America does, the UK pretty much marches in lockstep. Tony Blairs initial speeches post Sept 11 made the US' stance sound pretty tame. America hating Brits...puhleeeze... talk some sense for once! Duh!
[quote]If they don't like **** them. They need us more than we need them. Afghans don't like it? **** them. The Saudis should have been told to **** off years ago, murdering no good crap bag they are. France has always been 100% useless, so **** them. The Rusians don't care so they can stick around.<hr></blockquote>
Stuff like this sounds more at home in a junior school playground
Reply 30 of 154
January 20, 2002 6:38PM
My point is that everyone, yes, EVERYONE, holds the US to different standards than the rest of the world. They SEEK reasons to blame us, hate us, incite more hate. We could put these guys up in the Lincoln bedroom and we would get flack for it. There is no winning. If we put four walls around them, people would complain they didn't get enough sunlight. It's simple bullshit. People wil hate us anyway. We treat them better than anyone else in the world would, but somehow it's not ever going to be good enough because the rest of the world is not the US of A. I'm sick of being the American Apologist, trying to support the double standrd. Live with it. I will not lose sleep over their treatment now or in the long term. Either way people will hate us.
[removed repeated redundancies]
[ 01-20-2002: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
Reply 31 of 154
January 20, 2002 7:01PM
Arabs respect strength, not weakness. We are treating those maggots far better than they deserve to be treated but showing that we can be tough is a deterent. I don't think we need to impress the liberal society of Europe who cry at even murderers in the US getting what they deserve. **** em.......................................
Reply 32 of 154
January 20, 2002 7:05PM
[quote]Originally posted by Member:
<strong>BRussell, if you can't see what might, just might be objectionable, then I cannot argue my case with you any further.</strong><hr></blockquote>Oh come on. I'm just asking you to be specific. So far, you've just made vague and general statements that you don't like what's going on. I'll be the first to agree with you if you come up with something legitimate and substantive, instead of this vague anti-American "you're a bully" stuff. Sounds like you've read a few editorials and decided you don't like what those Yanks are up to. You'll have to do a little more work than that.
I even started a thread a couple weeks back about how I don't like the way Bush and Ashcroft have handled legal & civil rights issues since Sept. 11. So if you're even losing me on this stuff, you're doing something wrong.
Reply 33 of 154
January 20, 2002 10:11PM
We caught 'em, they're ours. If we want to KILL THEM WITH BAYONETS, IF WE WANT TO USE THEM FOR MEDICAL EXPERIMENTS, IF WE WANT TO FEED THEM TO THE DAMNED LION IN THE AFGHANISTAN ZOO THAT THE TALIBAN NEARLY STARVED TO DEATH (AND SELL THE CABLE RIGHTS FOR THE SHOW) WE WILL DO IT. YOU MAY PISS/BUZZ/BUGGER/F*CK OFF; In that respect, you do have a choice.
"THE WORLD" kicked on our door on 9-11. Fine; thanks for the wake up call. You do not have America's best interests at heart, you do not have the slightest respect for what generations of escapees from your countries have built up over here. Well, with each passing day more and more of US know that for a fact too.
Your attempt to unite Europe is turning into Hitler's freedom-crushing nightmare come true (minus the persecution of the Jews). Even though Our Founding Fathers taught the world how to establish an order where freedom, the individual and achievement are revered, you still can't get it right!
Americans do not care for your opinions, sensibilities, mores, your altruism, your collectivism, or your mysticism.
Save your breath, sniveling and hurt feelings because we are not listening, do not respect your criticism, do not intend to let these sons of bitches go, and are, BY NO MEANS THROUGH YET. This war has just begun. The President's Speech should be required reading; if you're not for us, you're against us.
'Bin Laden's' organization is coming after Western Civilization to destroy it. If you want to surrender your part of Western Civilization, well then, enjoy your return to the Dark Ages. We on this side of the Atlantic will continue to fight for the supremacy of the individual and for his rights. Because it's Good; because it works.
Period, end of story.
Aries (pant) 1B
Reply 34 of 154
January 20, 2002 10:25PM
[quote]Originally posted by Aries 1B:
We caught 'em, they're ours. If we want to KILL THEM WITH BAYONETS, IF WE WANT TO USE THEM FOR MEDICAL EXPERIMENTS, IF WE WANT TO FEED THEM TO THE DAMNED LION IN THE AFGHANISTAN ZOO THAT THE TALIBAN NEARLY STARVED TO DEATH (AND SELL THE CABLE RIGHTS FOR THE SHOW) WE WILL DO IT. YOU MAY PISS/BUZZ/BUGGER/F*CK OFF </strong> <hr></blockquote>
We on this side of the Atlantic will continue to fight for the supremacy of the individual and for his rights.
Odd contradiction. Even though the people who we have captured are perhaps one of the lowest forms of humanity, they are still people and should be treated as such. The Justice system will deal with them, untill then they should be treated as any other prisoner of the american Justice system. In most cases I am aginst capital punishment, but personally I see no other fitting punishment for those scumbags.
Reply 35 of 154
January 20, 2002 10:40PM
They're not individuals. They're animals. Cages are most fitting for them.
Think about the children that you are most closely related to and whom you love the most. Now think about all the poor damned kids who waited long into the night of 9-11 for Mommy and/or Daddy to come home but who never did and never will. Think about them and then anyone here tell me with a straight face and with an honest heart that ANYONE in the Taliban deserves mercy.
The Taliban are meat; warm, moving meat. That poor damned lion could use some fattening up.
Reply 36 of 154
January 20, 2002 11:10PM
And another thing....
We have been innudated with the fallacy that 'all cultures are equal, that no culture is better than another'. And from that, we are to infer that all people are alike.
Nothing could be further from the truth.
A person evaluating the worth of another person uses the beliefs of the person under consideration as a dimension to measure that other person's worth by the yardstick of their own values. The people who struck America consider America to be the Architype of Evil and believe that Americans (Atheists, Christians, Jews, Moderate Muslims, etc.) should be killed where ever we are found. That belief, in MY value system ,and in our own sacred self defense, sentences those people to death (And let me celebrate a touch of INCLUSIVENESS for the benefit of our Non--American guests; that includes that needled-dicked, traitorous little prick, John Walker).
America is better than the Taliban. America stands for the defense of the principle of the individual against The Collective. Collectivists (Socialists, Communists, Facists, The Taliban, Some Democrats, Some Republicans, etc.) to varying degrees assault the singularity of the individual. The individual (either singularly or in a 'Union of the people, by the people') most certainly has a right of self-defense (a right which the Europeans are crushing through heinous, draconian gun confiscation and which the English,for one, are suffering from a concomittant crimewave).
Everytime America tries to defend itself, Europe cries out in dismay and withering disdain. Europhile/Monicaphile Bill Clinton listened to these cries and didn't upset the applecart, spilled American Blood Be Damned. GW Bush is ignoring the bleating of those sheep and BULLY FOR HIM!
We are at war, and we are going to erase the enemy. Reference the American-Japanese War of 1941-45.
(Edited for typo)
[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: Aries 1B ]</p>
Reply 37 of 154
January 21, 2002 2:28PM
Aries you are half right and half very wrong. Mostly you are driven ny the usual misreading of anything that does not fit the conservative agenda and rampant worship of that vaguest of vaguenesses the "singular" individual.
What language do you speak? are the meanings of the words that you use to describe your world made up soley out of the "smithy of your soul"? no, you use borrowed meanings.... your experience is articulated through collective meanings . . .your illusion of radical individuality is wrong . . . or rather half wrong. But in that "half" there is a lot that you don't understand about what it means to be a Citizen and a human.
Though I do agree that 'individuality' should always be fought for, despite its tricky reality, it is also worth looking at why it is both a philosophically and sociologically difficult concept, and a notion of balance between individual and socially responsible should be considered. . . . . (by the way I think that on of the best ways to achieve social responsibility is through a laisez faire approach . . .it allows for the organic, uncodifiable aspects of humans to express themselves).
.......this deserves a thread to itself......
[quote] Your attempt to unite Europe is turning into Hitler's freedom-crushing nightmare come true (minus the persecution of the Jews). <hr></blockquote>
I would say that what is the same there, as far as an exclusionistic discourse surrounding unification, is the presupposition that a Unified Europe is for a 'European Homeland' for Europeans. . . . there is much talk that surrounds this idea that sees an outsider in "nomads" . . . .meaning both Jews and Gypsies . . . .meaning the discourse masks this kind of exclusion; the same at the heart of Nazism.
There is a comic book that celebrates the powers of "EU man" as he combats evil. this sells the idea of the EU to kids. In every comic the "powers of evil" are represented by dark haired "nomadic" types . . . . ie just like Gypsies or Jews . . . it still exists this subtle exclusionary racism in Europe.
But despite some of these dark undercurrents I kind of think that Europe should be unified economically . . . don't know why really, not because of "competativeness" but just out of less turmoil...maybe.
I think that it is not being unifed as some "freedom-hating" thing, but rather in the unification, European countries are being somewhat forced to adopt an American model of economics, a model that is scuttling much of the social networks that have made them, in my eyes, the successful social environments that they had been in the past. But now they will be "more competative" in a global economy . . .oh well... i guess they kinda have to...
as far as the prisoners:
THey are probably all glad that they are no longer held by the Northern Alliance.
And I gaurantee that the treatment they are getting is relatively soft.
But there really may be innocent people . . .we should try to detirmine their guilt before we start to call fo their blood.
Reply 38 of 154
January 21, 2002 2:45PM
[quote]Originally posted by pfflam:
<strong>we should try to detirmine their guilt before we start to call fo their blood.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'll ask you the same question I asked of
- we assume their innocence until proven guilty of what, exactly?
Reply 39 of 154
January 21, 2002 2:59PM
How about instead of keeping them all together in one big, happy "Taliban City", we split 'em up one by one and send each to a different cell block in one of our protected-from-the-elements maximum security federal prisons? Then we can interview whoever's still alive the next day and see if they liked that better.
Reply 40 of 154
January 21, 2002 3:02PM
; target="_blank">Britain has rejected accusations that it is letting its U.S. allies abuse al Qaeda suspects at Camp X-ray in Cuba, insisting the prisoners had "no complaints" about their treatment.</a>
Could you whining liberal morons please save the outrage until you have a few facts?