<strong>I read the print version of The Onion here in Chicago. Very funny stuff. So are you going to tell me that mpw_amherst satirist? I hope not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, I just realised if I was going to be called stupid for questioning the ethics and motivation of "the west" (Well, okay, in my case mostly the US), then there isn't much point in continuing the discussion, especially because the alternative post I had to The Onion one was to call you "an <a href="http://www.theonion.com/onion3801/area_man_not_exactly_sure.html"; target="_blank">all-American flag-waving patriot</a>", which is probably not the case considering the cynicism you display in most of your posts not relating to this subject.
Good to hear someone else buys The Onion, though. They need the funding! Come on people, it's only $39.95 a year, and I've (slightly) wet myself reading it on three occassions now.
[quote]In all seriousness. Please go over the first post and back up the statements with real facts. Most of the post is knee jerk garbage and has no basis in reality. Just like most of the op-eds just after the bombing started.<hr></blockquote>
I already pointed out one error, mostly because I didn't want my name associated with an inaccuracy, at least not with one of my own making.
What's worrying me right now is my feelings of apathy. Admittedly it doesn't matter one little iota what some nobody like me says on a forum about Apple, but once threads like this, the other on Camp X-Ray, and the one on Jock Sturges start looping (Which they always do), I get seriously bored. We're all so stubbornly opinionated that the discussions always end in stalemate. Or insults. Mostly both.
So I'll happily look as if I'm unable to argue my point in these threads, and go and insult people who believe Dorsal in Future Hardware instead. At least when it degenerates into insult-hurling over there, I don't feel I'm unable to argue my point, or that I'm insulting someone's intelligently thought out argument.
[quote]By "American organizations," do you mean private organizations, or the US government?<hr></blockquote>
Well-known to British Intelligence, NORAID/INAC is the principal fund-raiser for terrorism (funds for weapons, explosives, salaries for agents etc) in Northern Ireland (by the Provisional IRA and the INLA), and has been for decades. According to it's website NORAID is recognized by the US Government "in good standing".
IRA terrorism has killed thousands in that province as well as the UK mainland and Western Europe since 1969 when unrest flared. (Ironically) NORAID's base is in Manhattan, at Broadway and 207th St. and the website is out of Florida. <a href="http://www.noraid.com"; target="_blank">http://www.noraid.com</a>;
On the other hand of course, the Irish community points out ample evidence that the British employ terrorist tactics.
Nuff said? Also, the detainees in Cuba (ironic isn't it?) are criminals not war prisoners. And they are getting better treatment than most of the prisoners are in the U.S.. I don't know but after 9/11 you have to accept some strange effects on everything. Deal with it. Discuss it. But it won't really change the course of things.
What's worrying me right now is my feelings of apathy. Admittedly it doesn't matter one little iota what some nobody like me says on a forum about Apple, but once threads like this, the other on Camp X-Ray, and the one on Jock Sturges start looping (Which they always do), I get seriously bored. We're all so stubbornly opinionated that the discussions always end in stalemate. Or insults. Mostly both.
[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Quite right, sad but true. as for Scott's point - I have backed up my post with facts:
1. I've sighted the fact that the prisoners in Cuba have yet to be proved guilty of anything.
2. That Afghanistan and Somalia are two of the world's poorest nations, and as many politicians have said, we should be helping these people, not bombing them if we want to get them on side.
3. That while the US is waging a war on terrorism, it did not condemn its own citizens and organisations funding Irish republican groups who killed more British (and consequently Irish) citizens than died on September 11th.
4. That the plight of Palestine has been ignored by the west, America in particular. Israel's invasion of Palestinian and Lebanese territories resulted in the death of 15,000 civilians in three days.
All of those facts were in my post. You have failed to raise any facts to support your argument. While I may not agree with your opinion, I would at least respect you if you could bring facts, not insults, to this debate. Sadly, it is a minority such as yourself, that is causing anti-American feeling, not only in the East, but now in Europe. Many British opinion polls and TV programmes are showing a growing discontent with Britain's aid of America, in what is rapidly becoming a diplomatic disaster. You might say that we can all "**** off", like ina previous thread, but America needs her allies more than ever now. You could do well to remember that.
<strong>1. I've sighted the fact that the prisoners in Cuba have yet to be proved guilty of anything.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
... but failed to show how their treatment should be any different as a consequence. I agreed with you that they must be treated as POWs until proven otherwise, but your other statements that they are being mistreated don't follow.
[quote]2. That Afghanistan and Somalia are two of the world's poorest nations, and as many politicians have said, we should be helping these people, not bombing them if we want to get them on side.<hr></blockquote>
And I hope you realize that the US has been the world's biggest provider of aid to both of those countries.
[quote]4. That the plight of Palestine has been ignored by the west, America in particular.<hr></blockquote>
If that's true, then why has no other country over the past 10 years been more involved in the peace negotiations between the two parties? Clinton almost single-handedly made Arafat a respectable negotiator, and even Bush has publicly called for a Palestinian state. But if the US hadn't provided military support to Israel, there would be no Israel today. It seems the only standard Hamas et al. will accept of the US is that we allow them to destroy Israel utterly.
[quote]While I may not agree with your opinion, I would at least respect you if you could bring facts, not insults, to this debate.<hr></blockquote>
About insults, I'll just remind you of a post you directed towards me about a half-page up:
[quote]Your views on Palestine and Israel are misnformed at best, and racist at worst.<hr></blockquote>
Sounds to me like insults rather than facts. I don't know how long you've been here, but I've debated the Arab-Israeli conflict again and again on these boards, and I stand by my command of the facts. I'll wait and see what you come up with before I pass a judgment of you like you have done of me, but so far, it's not looking good.
You must admit, though, that the fall of the Taleban was merely a consequence of the attacks on Al Quaeda and owed nothing to any Western frustrations at the inhumanity of the Taleban regime.
The Taliban was a target as much as Al Queda because the Taliban were allowing the terrorists to use Afghanistan as a base. The goal was to wipe out the Taliban as well. Goal reached.
The rest of your post was so ridiculous it would take more time than I have to refute. You really have no common sense whatsoever, but you're entitled to your opinions..........................
Your views on Palestine and Israel are misnformed at best, and racist at worst. While I realise that America has strong links with Israel, that is no reason for you to ignore Israeli atrocities. For a start, the whole situation was created by the West's idea of a 'Jewish state' post WWII. Secondly, Israel's conduct in the '60s was horrific. 15,000 Palestinian and Lebanese were massacred, many by Isreali tanks just crushing their houses while they were still in them. Don't forget that Israel was the agressor there, invading the West Bank and the Gaza strip. While it would be naive to say that this situation could easily be solved, it would help if Palestine was recognised as a state in its own right and the lands that Israel INVADED, without Western intervention, were returned. Its a bit far fetched to say that Palestinians want the destruction of Israel, when Israel is the agressor, Israel is currently occupying Palestinian territory and Israel is holding Arafat under virtual house arrest. While I would never condone the actions of the suicide bombers, we must understand why they are doing this and not give into mere Zionist interpretations.<
15,000 Lebanese and palestinians were massacred in the 60s by Israel? And what exactly were you smoking in the 60s? Ludicrous statement.
Israel won a defensive war with the Arabs when they took the Gaza strip and West bank. When your country is attacked repeatedly from the same area you act. Israel would be a mere slip of land if the Arabs didn't attack them.
Israel has been trying for the past decade to give the Palestinians a State. Arafat turned down an offer so good even Clinton and the Europeans were astonished. Where exactly have you been?
You understand the suicide bombers? You understand slaughtering innocent men, women, and children of a State that you are currently in peace talks with? You are so far removed from reality I'm sure it will be pointless to argue with you................
[quote]Originally posted by mpw_amherst [re: BRussell]:
Your views on Palestine and Israel are misnformed at best, and racist at worst.
[snip]
Its a bit far fetched to say that Palestinians want the destruction of Israel, when Israel is the agressor, Israel is currently occupying Palestinian territory and Israel is holding Arafat under virtual house arrest. While I would never condone the actions of the suicide bombers, we must understand why they are doing this and not give into mere Zionist interpretations.
[snip]
<hr></blockquote>
1. Though new to this particular forum I must have read by now three hundred BRussell posts, and I can think of NOTHING he has ever posted has resembled either misinformation or "racism". Bad humor, yes, "Leftism" yes, but misinformation? Not in the past, and not in his posts in this thread. Your entirely defensible viewpoint about Palestine, Ireland et al is undermined by this kind of careless, dramatic worldplay.
2. You state "Its a bit far fetched to say that Palestinians want the destruction of Israel"...I'm not sure how this point is defensible. In the history of the region there have been numerous wars involving the simultaneous attack of Israel by its Arab neighbors, with the avowed destruction of Israel the goal. Perhaps you mean that Palestinians of today do not wish the destruction of Israel...
What's frustrating for me is that I think there are good arguments regarding the culpability [NOT blame, culpability ? there is a difference] of the West in some of these quagmires (be they the Mideast or Ireland or wherever), but ? again ? these critiques are underminded by careless namecalling; e.g. AS IF any attempts to problematize your characterizations are, in your eyes, simply evidence we've been duped by "mere Zionist interpretations."
Please don't bother. mpw_amherst starts off with the conclusion that America is to blame. Either for doing something or doing nothing. America is the great Satan and then from that everything follows.
Sounds to me like insults rather than facts. I don't know how long you've been here, but I've debated the Arab-Israeli conflict again and again on these boards, and I stand by my command of the facts. I'll wait and see what you come up with before I pass a judgment of you like you have done of me, but so far, it's not looking good.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well you're comments could be regarded as racist because you refuse to accept the acts against humanity committed by Israel. America may have played a major part in peace negotiations, but that is because it is allied to Israel. I've given my reasons for attacking America's attitude to the Middle East, you may want to read this article: Sharon guilty of war crimes
As for your comment about America and aid, that's true - but then America is the world's richest country and only surviving super power. The west needs to invest much more and stop being so cynical in its investment.
as for the Cuban prisoners - it violates their human rights that they should be shackled, it is against the Geneva convention.
You must admit, though, that the fall of the Taleban was merely a consequence of the attacks on Al Quaeda and owed nothing to any Western frustrations at the inhumanity of the Taleban regime.
The Taliban was a target as much as Al Queda because the Taliban were allowing the terrorists to use Afghanistan as a base. The goal was to wipe out the Taliban as well. Goal reached.
The rest of your post was so ridiculous it would take more time than I have to refute. You really have no common sense whatsoever, but you're entitled to your opinions..........................</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Taleban was only a target because they refused to hand over Al Quaeda, if it hadn't been for September 11th and their lack of co-operation they would still be there now, committing atrocities against their own people while the West did nothing.
You may think I lack common sense, but all of what I have said is actually in agreement wiht a strong movement in Britain which includes an enormous number of MPs, including a large number of Tony Blair's government and cabinet.
Your views on Palestine and Israel are misnformed at best, and racist at worst. While I realise that America has strong links with Israel, that is no reason for you to ignore Israeli atrocities. For a start, the whole situation was created by the West's idea of a 'Jewish state' post WWII. Secondly, Israel's conduct in the '60s was horrific. 15,000 Palestinian and Lebanese were massacred, many by Isreali tanks just crushing their houses while they were still in them. Don't forget that Israel was the agressor there, invading the West Bank and the Gaza strip. While it would be naive to say that this situation could easily be solved, it would help if Palestine was recognised as a state in its own right and the lands that Israel INVADED, without Western intervention, were returned. Its a bit far fetched to say that Palestinians want the destruction of Israel, when Israel is the agressor, Israel is currently occupying Palestinian territory and Israel is holding Arafat under virtual house arrest. While I would never condone the actions of the suicide bombers, we must understand why they are doing this and not give into mere Zionist interpretations.<
15,000 Lebanese and palestinians were massacred in the 60s by Israel? And what exactly were you smoking in the 60s? Ludicrous statement.
Israel won a defensive war with the Arabs when they took the Gaza strip and West bank. When your country is attacked repeatedly from the same area you act. Israel would be a mere slip of land if the Arabs didn't attack them.
Israel has been trying for the past decade to give the Palestinians a State. Arafat turned down an offer so good even Clinton and the Europeans were astonished. Where exactly have you been?
You understand the suicide bombers? You understand slaughtering innocent men, women, and children of a State that you are currently in peace talks with? You are so far removed from reality I'm sure it will be pointless to argue with you................</strong><hr></blockquote>
See the links in my post below, from Robert Fisk - winner of best foreign correspondent in Britain, as voted for by all the British media.
1. Though new to this particular forum I must have read by now three hundred BRussell posts, and I can think of NOTHING he has ever posted has resembled either misinformation or "racism". Bad humor, yes, "Leftism" yes, but misinformation? Not in the past, and not in his posts in this thread. Your entirely defensible viewpoint about Palestine, Ireland et al is undermined by this kind of careless, dramatic worldplay.
2. You state "Its a bit far fetched to say that Palestinians want the destruction of Israel"...I'm not sure how this point is defensible. In the history of the region there have been numerous wars involving the simultaneous attack of Israel by its Arab neighbors, with the avowed destruction of Israel the goal. Perhaps you mean that Palestinians of today do not wish the destruction of Israel...
What's frustrating for me is that I think there are good arguments regarding the culpability [NOT blame, culpability ? there is a difference] of the West in some of these quagmires (be they the Mideast or Ireland or wherever), but ? again ? these critiques are underminded by careless namecalling; e.g. AS IF any attempts to problematize your characterizations are, in your eyes, simply evidence we've been duped by "mere Zionist interpretations."</strong><hr></blockquote>
In reponse to Scott H, I think I made a prticualr point to say in my original post that I was not 'blaming' America.
Timo - you are right, 'cuplability' is a much better word. I also agree that 'racist' was strong, for which I apologise to BRussell, although it does disturb me that there appears to be quite a strong element of America unprepared to accept Israeli atrocities in the Middle East.
See the links in my post below, from Robert Fisk - winner of best foreign correspondent in Britain, as voted for by all the British media.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe so but he's still a twit. Those Israeli war crimes were done by Lebanese.
"Arabs kill Arabs and the world blames the Jews." - Menachem Begin</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry, that isn't an answer to the facts that Fisk presents. I said, I think we've reached stalemate. I see little point in arguing with people who refuse to present facts to support their side of the argument. If we were talking about G5s and I used a quote from Steve Jobs in 1981, or something, it wouldn't hold much water.
Sorry, that isn't an answer to the facts that Fisk presents. I said, I think we've reached stalemate. I see little point in arguing with people who refuse to present facts to support their side of the argument.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Comments
<strong>I read the print version of The Onion here in Chicago. Very funny stuff. So are you going to tell me that mpw_amherst satirist? I hope not.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, I just realised if I was going to be called stupid for questioning the ethics and motivation of "the west" (Well, okay, in my case mostly the US), then there isn't much point in continuing the discussion, especially because the alternative post I had to The Onion one was to call you "an <a href="http://www.theonion.com/onion3801/area_man_not_exactly_sure.html"; target="_blank">all-American flag-waving patriot</a>", which is probably not the case considering the cynicism you display in most of your posts not relating to this subject.
Good to hear someone else buys The Onion, though. They need the funding! Come on people, it's only $39.95 a year, and I've (slightly) wet myself reading it on three occassions now.
[quote]In all seriousness. Please go over the first post and back up the statements with real facts. Most of the post is knee jerk garbage and has no basis in reality. Just like most of the op-eds just after the bombing started.<hr></blockquote>
I already pointed out one error, mostly because I didn't want my name associated with an inaccuracy, at least not with one of my own making.
What's worrying me right now is my feelings of apathy. Admittedly it doesn't matter one little iota what some nobody like me says on a forum about Apple, but once threads like this, the other on Camp X-Ray, and the one on Jock Sturges start looping (Which they always do), I get seriously bored. We're all so stubbornly opinionated that the discussions always end in stalemate. Or insults. Mostly both.
So I'll happily look as if I'm unable to argue my point in these threads, and go and insult people who believe Dorsal in Future Hardware instead. At least when it degenerates into insult-hurling over there, I don't feel I'm unable to argue my point, or that I'm insulting someone's intelligently thought out argument.
[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</p>
Well-known to British Intelligence, NORAID/INAC is the principal fund-raiser for terrorism (funds for weapons, explosives, salaries for agents etc) in Northern Ireland (by the Provisional IRA and the INLA), and has been for decades. According to it's website NORAID is recognized by the US Government "in good standing".
IRA terrorism has killed thousands in that province as well as the UK mainland and Western Europe since 1969 when unrest flared. (Ironically) NORAID's base is in Manhattan, at Broadway and 207th St. and the website is out of Florida. <a href="http://www.noraid.com"; target="_blank">http://www.noraid.com</a>;
On the other hand of course, the Irish community points out ample evidence that the British employ terrorist tactics.
<a href="http://www.noraid.com/Terrorists.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.noraid.com/Terrorists.htm</a>;
Challenge: Name me a country (Antarctica and Greenland do not count) that does not fund or employ terrorism!!!!
A roaring silence is expected on that one....
edit..spelling error!
[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
Nuff said? Also, the detainees in Cuba (ironic isn't it?) are criminals not war prisoners. And they are getting better treatment than most of the prisoners are in the U.S.. I don't know but after 9/11 you have to accept some strange effects on everything. Deal with it. Discuss it. But it won't really change the course of things.
<strong>
What's worrying me right now is my feelings of apathy. Admittedly it doesn't matter one little iota what some nobody like me says on a forum about Apple, but once threads like this, the other on Camp X-Ray, and the one on Jock Sturges start looping (Which they always do), I get seriously bored. We're all so stubbornly opinionated that the discussions always end in stalemate. Or insults. Mostly both.
[ 01-27-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Quite right, sad but true. as for Scott's point - I have backed up my post with facts:
1. I've sighted the fact that the prisoners in Cuba have yet to be proved guilty of anything.
2. That Afghanistan and Somalia are two of the world's poorest nations, and as many politicians have said, we should be helping these people, not bombing them if we want to get them on side.
3. That while the US is waging a war on terrorism, it did not condemn its own citizens and organisations funding Irish republican groups who killed more British (and consequently Irish) citizens than died on September 11th.
4. That the plight of Palestine has been ignored by the west, America in particular. Israel's invasion of Palestinian and Lebanese territories resulted in the death of 15,000 civilians in three days.
All of those facts were in my post. You have failed to raise any facts to support your argument. While I may not agree with your opinion, I would at least respect you if you could bring facts, not insults, to this debate. Sadly, it is a minority such as yourself, that is causing anti-American feeling, not only in the East, but now in Europe. Many British opinion polls and TV programmes are showing a growing discontent with Britain's aid of America, in what is rapidly becoming a diplomatic disaster. You might say that we can all "**** off", like ina previous thread, but America needs her allies more than ever now. You could do well to remember that.
<strong>1. I've sighted the fact that the prisoners in Cuba have yet to be proved guilty of anything.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
... but failed to show how their treatment should be any different as a consequence. I agreed with you that they must be treated as POWs until proven otherwise, but your other statements that they are being mistreated don't follow.
[quote]2. That Afghanistan and Somalia are two of the world's poorest nations, and as many politicians have said, we should be helping these people, not bombing them if we want to get them on side.<hr></blockquote>
And I hope you realize that the US has been the world's biggest provider of aid to both of those countries.
[quote]4. That the plight of Palestine has been ignored by the west, America in particular.<hr></blockquote>
If that's true, then why has no other country over the past 10 years been more involved in the peace negotiations between the two parties? Clinton almost single-handedly made Arafat a respectable negotiator, and even Bush has publicly called for a Palestinian state. But if the US hadn't provided military support to Israel, there would be no Israel today. It seems the only standard Hamas et al. will accept of the US is that we allow them to destroy Israel utterly.
[quote]While I may not agree with your opinion, I would at least respect you if you could bring facts, not insults, to this debate.<hr></blockquote>
About insults, I'll just remind you of a post you directed towards me about a half-page up:
[quote]Your views on Palestine and Israel are misnformed at best, and racist at worst.<hr></blockquote>
Sounds to me like insults rather than facts. I don't know how long you've been here, but I've debated the Arab-Israeli conflict again and again on these boards, and I stand by my command of the facts. I'll wait and see what you come up with before I pass a judgment of you like you have done of me, but so far, it's not looking good.
You must admit, though, that the fall of the Taleban was merely a consequence of the attacks on Al Quaeda and owed nothing to any Western frustrations at the inhumanity of the Taleban regime.
The Taliban was a target as much as Al Queda because the Taliban were allowing the terrorists to use Afghanistan as a base. The goal was to wipe out the Taliban as well. Goal reached.
The rest of your post was so ridiculous it would take more time than I have to refute. You really have no common sense whatsoever, but you're entitled to your opinions..........................
Your views on Palestine and Israel are misnformed at best, and racist at worst. While I realise that America has strong links with Israel, that is no reason for you to ignore Israeli atrocities. For a start, the whole situation was created by the West's idea of a 'Jewish state' post WWII. Secondly, Israel's conduct in the '60s was horrific. 15,000 Palestinian and Lebanese were massacred, many by Isreali tanks just crushing their houses while they were still in them. Don't forget that Israel was the agressor there, invading the West Bank and the Gaza strip. While it would be naive to say that this situation could easily be solved, it would help if Palestine was recognised as a state in its own right and the lands that Israel INVADED, without Western intervention, were returned. Its a bit far fetched to say that Palestinians want the destruction of Israel, when Israel is the agressor, Israel is currently occupying Palestinian territory and Israel is holding Arafat under virtual house arrest. While I would never condone the actions of the suicide bombers, we must understand why they are doing this and not give into mere Zionist interpretations.<
15,000 Lebanese and palestinians were massacred in the 60s by Israel? And what exactly were you smoking in the 60s? Ludicrous statement.
Israel won a defensive war with the Arabs when they took the Gaza strip and West bank. When your country is attacked repeatedly from the same area you act. Israel would be a mere slip of land if the Arabs didn't attack them.
Israel has been trying for the past decade to give the Palestinians a State. Arafat turned down an offer so good even Clinton and the Europeans were astonished. Where exactly have you been?
You understand the suicide bombers? You understand slaughtering innocent men, women, and children of a State that you are currently in peace talks with? You are so far removed from reality I'm sure it will be pointless to argue with you................
Your views on Palestine and Israel are misnformed at best, and racist at worst.
[snip]
Its a bit far fetched to say that Palestinians want the destruction of Israel, when Israel is the agressor, Israel is currently occupying Palestinian territory and Israel is holding Arafat under virtual house arrest. While I would never condone the actions of the suicide bombers, we must understand why they are doing this and not give into mere Zionist interpretations.
[snip]
<hr></blockquote>
1. Though new to this particular forum I must have read by now three hundred BRussell posts, and I can think of NOTHING he has ever posted has resembled either misinformation or "racism". Bad humor, yes, "Leftism" yes, but misinformation? Not in the past, and not in his posts in this thread. Your entirely defensible viewpoint about Palestine, Ireland et al is undermined by this kind of careless, dramatic worldplay.
2. You state "Its a bit far fetched to say that Palestinians want the destruction of Israel"...I'm not sure how this point is defensible. In the history of the region there have been numerous wars involving the simultaneous attack of Israel by its Arab neighbors, with the avowed destruction of Israel the goal. Perhaps you mean that Palestinians of today do not wish the destruction of Israel...
What's frustrating for me is that I think there are good arguments regarding the culpability [NOT blame, culpability ? there is a difference] of the West in some of these quagmires (be they the Mideast or Ireland or wherever), but ? again ? these critiques are underminded by careless namecalling; e.g. AS IF any attempts to problematize your characterizations are, in your eyes, simply evidence we've been duped by "mere Zionist interpretations."
<strong>
Sounds to me like insults rather than facts. I don't know how long you've been here, but I've debated the Arab-Israeli conflict again and again on these boards, and I stand by my command of the facts. I'll wait and see what you come up with before I pass a judgment of you like you have done of me, but so far, it's not looking good.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well you're comments could be regarded as racist because you refuse to accept the acts against humanity committed by Israel. America may have played a major part in peace negotiations, but that is because it is allied to Israel. I've given my reasons for attacking America's attitude to the Middle East, you may want to read this article: Sharon guilty of war crimes
<a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=116256"; target="_blank">web page</a>
and also: another example of Israeli atrocities<a href="http://www.independent.co.uk/story.jsp?story=94254"; target="_blank">web page</a>
As for your comment about America and aid, that's true - but then America is the world's richest country and only surviving super power. The west needs to invest much more and stop being so cynical in its investment.
as for the Cuban prisoners - it violates their human rights that they should be shackled, it is against the Geneva convention.
<strong>Originally posted by mpw_amherst:
You must admit, though, that the fall of the Taleban was merely a consequence of the attacks on Al Quaeda and owed nothing to any Western frustrations at the inhumanity of the Taleban regime.
The Taliban was a target as much as Al Queda because the Taliban were allowing the terrorists to use Afghanistan as a base. The goal was to wipe out the Taliban as well. Goal reached.
The rest of your post was so ridiculous it would take more time than I have to refute. You really have no common sense whatsoever, but you're entitled to your opinions..........................</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Taleban was only a target because they refused to hand over Al Quaeda, if it hadn't been for September 11th and their lack of co-operation they would still be there now, committing atrocities against their own people while the West did nothing.
You may think I lack common sense, but all of what I have said is actually in agreement wiht a strong movement in Britain which includes an enormous number of MPs, including a large number of Tony Blair's government and cabinet.
<strong>Originally posted by mpw_amherst:
Your views on Palestine and Israel are misnformed at best, and racist at worst. While I realise that America has strong links with Israel, that is no reason for you to ignore Israeli atrocities. For a start, the whole situation was created by the West's idea of a 'Jewish state' post WWII. Secondly, Israel's conduct in the '60s was horrific. 15,000 Palestinian and Lebanese were massacred, many by Isreali tanks just crushing their houses while they were still in them. Don't forget that Israel was the agressor there, invading the West Bank and the Gaza strip. While it would be naive to say that this situation could easily be solved, it would help if Palestine was recognised as a state in its own right and the lands that Israel INVADED, without Western intervention, were returned. Its a bit far fetched to say that Palestinians want the destruction of Israel, when Israel is the agressor, Israel is currently occupying Palestinian territory and Israel is holding Arafat under virtual house arrest. While I would never condone the actions of the suicide bombers, we must understand why they are doing this and not give into mere Zionist interpretations.<
15,000 Lebanese and palestinians were massacred in the 60s by Israel? And what exactly were you smoking in the 60s? Ludicrous statement.
Israel won a defensive war with the Arabs when they took the Gaza strip and West bank. When your country is attacked repeatedly from the same area you act. Israel would be a mere slip of land if the Arabs didn't attack them.
Israel has been trying for the past decade to give the Palestinians a State. Arafat turned down an offer so good even Clinton and the Europeans were astonished. Where exactly have you been?
You understand the suicide bombers? You understand slaughtering innocent men, women, and children of a State that you are currently in peace talks with? You are so far removed from reality I'm sure it will be pointless to argue with you................</strong><hr></blockquote>
See the links in my post below, from Robert Fisk - winner of best foreign correspondent in Britain, as voted for by all the British media.
<strong>
1. Though new to this particular forum I must have read by now three hundred BRussell posts, and I can think of NOTHING he has ever posted has resembled either misinformation or "racism". Bad humor, yes, "Leftism" yes, but misinformation? Not in the past, and not in his posts in this thread. Your entirely defensible viewpoint about Palestine, Ireland et al is undermined by this kind of careless, dramatic worldplay.
2. You state "Its a bit far fetched to say that Palestinians want the destruction of Israel"...I'm not sure how this point is defensible. In the history of the region there have been numerous wars involving the simultaneous attack of Israel by its Arab neighbors, with the avowed destruction of Israel the goal. Perhaps you mean that Palestinians of today do not wish the destruction of Israel...
What's frustrating for me is that I think there are good arguments regarding the culpability [NOT blame, culpability ? there is a difference] of the West in some of these quagmires (be they the Mideast or Ireland or wherever), but ? again ? these critiques are underminded by careless namecalling; e.g. AS IF any attempts to problematize your characterizations are, in your eyes, simply evidence we've been duped by "mere Zionist interpretations."</strong><hr></blockquote>
In reponse to Scott H, I think I made a prticualr point to say in my original post that I was not 'blaming' America.
Timo - you are right, 'cuplability' is a much better word. I also agree that 'racist' was strong, for which I apologise to BRussell, although it does disturb me that there appears to be quite a strong element of America unprepared to accept Israeli atrocities in the Middle East.
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See the links in my post below, from Robert Fisk - winner of best foreign correspondent in Britain, as voted for by all the British media.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe so but he's still a twit. Those Israeli war crimes were done by Lebanese.
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Maybe so but he's still a twit. Those Israeli war crimes were done by Lebanese.</strong><hr></blockquote>
He's provided the evidence that they weren't...
...I think we're reaching stalemate here.
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He's provided the evidence that they weren't...
...I think we're reaching stalemate here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Arabs kill Arabs and the world blames the Jews." - Menachem Begin
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"Arabs kill Arabs and the world blames the Jews." - Menachem Begin</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sorry, that isn't an answer to the facts that Fisk presents. I said, I think we've reached stalemate. I see little point in arguing with people who refuse to present facts to support their side of the argument. If we were talking about G5s and I used a quote from Steve Jobs in 1981, or something, it wouldn't hold much water.
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Sorry, that isn't an answer to the facts that Fisk presents. I said, I think we've reached stalemate. I see little point in arguing with people who refuse to present facts to support their side of the argument.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Like you?