but if you can't see the rise in ultra-patriot rhetoric, which seems to go beyond what the circumstances would demand, as being part and parcel of the rise in an atmosphere that would, if it could, result in the loss of our freedoms and civil rights (in the name of our 'freedoms' and rights) then I think that you might have swallowed the line, and the hook and sinker.
In my mind , where you have an extreme of obviously manipulative rhetoric then you are likely to have the rise of demagoguery, or the want of absolute power at the least.
As soon as Anders or I say anything remotely criticising Bush or an aspect of the US that you dont agree with, we are 'horrible socialist euro trash scum'. whats up with that?
And just to remind our viewers, I am a US Citizen that has lived in Europe for the last 12 years but that grew up in NYC.
Iraq: Its obviously on Bush's shit list because his daddy didnt take finish the job 12 years ago (what a dolt... and to think that I really liked Bush senior). OK, that was a cheap shot. In all honesty, seeing that every nation in the world has been turning a blind eye towards the fact that they are exporting oil anyway and making money and somewhat restructring (and rearming), and that they are defying the UN Controls (again), I think they should be on the shit list. They lost the war 12 years ago, they have no right to say that they will or will not allow a weapons inspection team in. When you lose, you have no say.
North Korea... I have absolutely no idea what os going on there so I shall refrain from commenting, although it IS true that they have been making quite some progress in the poistive sense.
Iran... just leave them out of it. Iranians love the 'west' and has been making HUGE steps towards becoming what we view as a normal nation. There are obviously still extremists dicks who have to SLOWLY be ousted from power. The reason the revolution came in the first place was because changes to 'westerinization' came to quickly. Cant affod to hurry something as sensitive as the 'normalization' of Iran.
They dont harbor terrorists and while they provided the weapons that were blocked by Israel recetly... tell me the US doesnt sell weapons either (to Israel... hmm... everything (just about) in the Israeli arsenal is from the USA).
BTW, Europe is a lot less 'anti jew' than the US from what I have seen. In the US you HAVE TO BE (or at least pretend) to be filo-israeli/jewish or esle you are labelled as a racist, nazi, evil person. On the other hand, Jews in the US seem to have the ability or permission to be racist towards everyone else because of, ironically again, what happened to them in Europe. Why has the US taken the burden of the atrocities that happened here 60 years ago? Weird.
And PS, if there is ONE European nation that helped the Jews most of all during WW2, it was Denmark.
Quick follow up to my earlier post: though I'm surprised we publicly point our finer at N. Korea and Iran, I have no doubt that the President and US Intelligence have a much better idea about what is going on behind the scenes. Obviously this leaves them open to accusations of "inventing" enemies, the excuse some made about the Taliban/Afghanistan earlier. This is strictly a PR issue. The situation (read: threat) is likely real. It's simply a question of whether we go public with this or try to stay clandestine in pursuit of the threats. Obviously the Executives thought it was better to open up the issue than get exposed later with a secret agenda.
<strong>As soon as Anders or I say anything remotely criticising Bush or an aspect of the US that you dont agree with, we are 'horrible socialist euro trash scum'. whats up with that?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Shoe fits?
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>And just to remind our viewers, I am a US Citizen that has lived in Europe for the last 12 years but that grew up in NYC.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>Iraq: Its obviously on Bush's shit list because his daddy didnt take finish the job 12 years ago (what a dolt... and to think that I really liked Bush senior).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh is that "obviously" the reason? Or the Bush hating Euro trash reason?
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>OK, that was a cheap shot.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm going to guess that the above is what you realy think.
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>In all honesty, seeing that every nation in the world has been turning a blind eye towards the fact that they are exporting oil anyway and making money and somewhat restructring (and rearming), and that they are defying the UN Controls (again), I think they should be on the shit list. They lost the war 12 years ago, they have no right to say that they will or will not allow a weapons inspection team in. When you lose, you have no say.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe that's the real reason. Sanctions don't work but lets give that another try.
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>North Korea... I have absolutely no idea what os going on there so I shall refrain from commenting, although it IS true that they have been making quite some progress in the poistive sense.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You don't know what's going on but your sure that "some progress in the poistive sense."
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>Iran... just leave them out of it. Iranians love the 'west' and has been making HUGE steps towards becoming what we view as a normal nation. There are obviously still extremists dicks who have to SLOWLY be ousted from power. The reason the revolution came in the first place was because changes to 'westerinization' came to quickly. Cant affod to hurry something as sensitive as the 'normalization' of Iran.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Um? Hum? Did you bother to hear what Bush said? No or yes? IMO what he said the people of Iran was the 100% exactly correct thing to say. Go back and read it. Bush got it right!
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>They dont harbor terrorists and while they provided the weapons that were blocked by Israel recetly... tell me the US doesnt sell weapons either (to Israel... hmm... everything (just about) in the Israeli arsenal is from the USA).</strong><hr></blockquote>
They don't?
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>BTW, Europe is a lot less 'anti jew' than the US from what I have seen. In the US you HAVE TO BE (or at least pretend) to be filo-israeli/jewish or esle you are labelled as a racist, nazi, evil person. On the other hand, Jews in the US seem to have the ability or permission to be racist towards everyone else because of, ironically again, what happened to them in Europe. Why has the US taken the burden of the atrocities that happened here 60 years ago? Weird.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have no idea what you are talking about. Euro trash fantasy about the evil jews in the US hating th niggers?
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>And PS, if there is ONE European nation that helped the Jews most of all during WW2, it was Denmark.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think England and Russia helped more Jews than Denmark. What all that winning the war stuff.
All I can add is: The sooner Armagedon arrives, the sooner all the shit will be cleaned out of the sewers of the human race! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Funny, within the past 4 hours I just got two freelance offers. Nothing perminent...but it'll pay the rent. Still think there is a loooong road for many of us. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
well show must go on : good luck for finding a good job in the next month.
Just a thought : i think many companies (Europe included) take the excuse of the 11 september in order to fire many people. The crisis of course was patent, but some companies seems to over-react. Of course it's just a thouhgt (no proof), any comment about this
Cuba, Sudan, Serbia Form Axis of Somewhat Evil; Other Nations Start Own Clubs
[quote]Beijing (SatireWire.com) - Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil," Libya, China, and Syria today announced they had formed the "Axis of Just as Evil," which they said would be way eviler than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis President Bush warned of his State of the Union address.
Axis of Evil members, however, immediately dismissed the new axis as having, for starters, a really dumb name. "Right. They are Just as Evil... in their dreams!" declared North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. "Everybody knows we're the best evils... best at being evil... we're the best."
Diplomats from Syria denied they were jealous over being excluded, although they conceded they did ask if they could join the Axis of Evil.
"They told us it was full," said Syrian President Bashar al-Assad...<hr></blockquote>
Americans DO get upset at liberal europeans that criticize our policies. I know that the whole mentality that I perceive over in Europe towards us is a little troubling. I think we are now looked at as a bully with deep pockets that does whatever it wants because it can.
But here is the probelm with that. Mainly, it is a philosphical difference.
1) The US, like it nor not, IS a superpower in the economic and military sense. That carries certain duties with it, such as protecting other nations and acting as the police. If not the US, then who?
2) Since we are a superpower, if something is going to happen in the world then generally, WE are going to make it happen. Yep, it sounds nationlistic. But I am of the philosophy that someone has to do the dirty work, and since it is us, we are going to call the shots.
Ok, and pfllam, you obviously don't read. I never said everyone here was younger than me....and that doesn't ALWAYS mean one's opinions are less "well thought out" (though often!) I also speciffically apologized in advance for condscension, but I don't think there is better way to say it: some people are truly naive.
Finally, as for the "towing of the government line" thing goes: I think we have a duty as Americans to support his war. I also think that bush is right, these nation's governments ARE evil. There is evidence all over the place, from genocide to agression to letting one's own starve for the sake of spending 75% of the nations budget on military expenses. In addition, the people have about zero personal freedom. Tolernace of other cultures is fine. I understand that American values are not shared by all....but I also operate under a consistent philosophy that I believe is "right". This is simply that democracy and freedom are the only ways to have a lasting nation and people. Those nations that oppress freedom of speech and religion are wrong....and I willnever change my mind on that.
I AM able to think critically. I do criticize the government. But, the president is right on this. We have to stop these nations now beofre they gain the powers they need to pose a serious threat to the US. The intent of them is certainly there...not even PFLLAM can deny that.
The president sides with the people, who aspire to freedom.
BY S. ROB SOBHANI
Wednesday, February 6, 2002 12:01 a.m.
[quote]"President Bush has spoken to our hearts, which yearn for freedom. He will be remembered as another Abraham Lincoln by the freedom-loving people of Iran." These are words of support from within Iran, in reaction to last week's State of the Union address, uttered by an Iranian calling the Voice of America's Persian service. As a guest at the station that night, I witnessed hundreds of calls, faxes and e-mails from inside Iran praising Mr. Bush. For the first time since the establishment of the theocracy, a U.S. president had chosen to speak to, and for, Iran's downtrodden.
An outpouring of support from within Iran for Mr. Bush would surprise those who have heard loud criticism of aspects of his address, particularly his attack on the "axis of evil," in which he included the Iranian regime. European officials, having begun to cozy up to the Tehran mullahs, are loath to do a turnaround. Besides, the more sophisticated dislike all this talk of "evil."
But not those who suffer under the mullahs' rule, and know evil when they see it up close. An overwhelming majority of the people of Iran welcomed President Bush's comments. Here was an American president who had separated the nation of Iran from its oppressive government.
Not surprisingly, the regime's reaction has been harsh and crude. The supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, declared "the American government's statements are coming from a person thirsty for human blood." He's not alone, and Iran's "moderate" leaders, much lionized by the likes of Madeleine Albright, are just as rabid in their opposition to the U.S. president. Mohammad Khatami ripped into Mr. Bush by claiming that the State of the Union "statements were bellicose and insulting toward the great people of Iran."
In fact, Mr. Khatami's message was worse in some ways, as it amounted to an attempt to deceive the people of his country, given that Mr. Bush praised the "Iranian people's hope for freedom." But people inside Iran were not swayed by the Khatami lie: "Please President Bush, don't be fooled by such distinctions as 'reformists' and 'hardliners' in the government of Iran, since they are one and the same and part and parcel of the same evil group, opposing peace and spreading hate and terror throughout the world," said one of the messages VOA received.
These reactions point to four fundamental flaws in U.S. and European policy assumptions toward Iran that need to be addressed. The first is that the theocratic regime wants to have diplomatic relations with Washington, and that if the U.S. only tries hard enough it can convince the mullahs to play nice...<hr></blockquote>
Comments
In my mind , where you have an extreme of obviously manipulative rhetoric then you are likely to have the rise of demagoguery, or the want of absolute power at the least.
[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
And just to remind our viewers, I am a US Citizen that has lived in Europe for the last 12 years but that grew up in NYC.
Iraq: Its obviously on Bush's shit list because his daddy didnt take finish the job 12 years ago (what a dolt... and to think that I really liked Bush senior). OK, that was a cheap shot. In all honesty, seeing that every nation in the world has been turning a blind eye towards the fact that they are exporting oil anyway and making money and somewhat restructring (and rearming), and that they are defying the UN Controls (again), I think they should be on the shit list. They lost the war 12 years ago, they have no right to say that they will or will not allow a weapons inspection team in. When you lose, you have no say.
North Korea... I have absolutely no idea what os going on there so I shall refrain from commenting, although it IS true that they have been making quite some progress in the poistive sense.
Iran... just leave them out of it. Iranians love the 'west' and has been making HUGE steps towards becoming what we view as a normal nation. There are obviously still extremists dicks who have to SLOWLY be ousted from power. The reason the revolution came in the first place was because changes to 'westerinization' came to quickly. Cant affod to hurry something as sensitive as the 'normalization' of Iran.
They dont harbor terrorists and while they provided the weapons that were blocked by Israel recetly... tell me the US doesnt sell weapons either (to Israel... hmm... everything (just about) in the Israeli arsenal is from the USA).
BTW, Europe is a lot less 'anti jew' than the US from what I have seen. In the US you HAVE TO BE (or at least pretend) to be filo-israeli/jewish or esle you are labelled as a racist, nazi, evil person. On the other hand, Jews in the US seem to have the ability or permission to be racist towards everyone else because of, ironically again, what happened to them in Europe. Why has the US taken the burden of the atrocities that happened here 60 years ago? Weird.
And PS, if there is ONE European nation that helped the Jews most of all during WW2, it was Denmark.
<strong>As soon as Anders or I say anything remotely criticising Bush or an aspect of the US that you dont agree with, we are 'horrible socialist euro trash scum'. whats up with that?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Shoe fits?
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>And just to remind our viewers, I am a US Citizen that has lived in Europe for the last 12 years but that grew up in NYC.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>Iraq: Its obviously on Bush's shit list because his daddy didnt take finish the job 12 years ago (what a dolt... and to think that I really liked Bush senior).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh is that "obviously" the reason? Or the Bush hating Euro trash reason?
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>OK, that was a cheap shot.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm going to guess that the above is what you realy think.
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>In all honesty, seeing that every nation in the world has been turning a blind eye towards the fact that they are exporting oil anyway and making money and somewhat restructring (and rearming), and that they are defying the UN Controls (again), I think they should be on the shit list. They lost the war 12 years ago, they have no right to say that they will or will not allow a weapons inspection team in. When you lose, you have no say.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Maybe that's the real reason. Sanctions don't work but lets give that another try.
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>North Korea... I have absolutely no idea what os going on there so I shall refrain from commenting, although it IS true that they have been making quite some progress in the poistive sense.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You don't know what's going on but your sure that "some progress in the poistive sense."
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>Iran... just leave them out of it. Iranians love the 'west' and has been making HUGE steps towards becoming what we view as a normal nation. There are obviously still extremists dicks who have to SLOWLY be ousted from power. The reason the revolution came in the first place was because changes to 'westerinization' came to quickly. Cant affod to hurry something as sensitive as the 'normalization' of Iran.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Um? Hum? Did you bother to hear what Bush said? No or yes? IMO what he said the people of Iran was the 100% exactly correct thing to say. Go back and read it. Bush got it right!
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>They dont harbor terrorists and while they provided the weapons that were blocked by Israel recetly... tell me the US doesnt sell weapons either (to Israel... hmm... everything (just about) in the Israeli arsenal is from the USA).</strong><hr></blockquote>
They don't?
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>BTW, Europe is a lot less 'anti jew' than the US from what I have seen. In the US you HAVE TO BE (or at least pretend) to be filo-israeli/jewish or esle you are labelled as a racist, nazi, evil person. On the other hand, Jews in the US seem to have the ability or permission to be racist towards everyone else because of, ironically again, what happened to them in Europe. Why has the US taken the burden of the atrocities that happened here 60 years ago? Weird.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have no idea what you are talking about. Euro trash fantasy about the evil jews in the US hating th niggers?
[quote]Originally posted by ZO:
<strong>And PS, if there is ONE European nation that helped the Jews most of all during WW2, it was Denmark.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think England and Russia helped more Jews than Denmark. What all that winning the war stuff.
<strong>---------------------------------------------------------------
Good luck finding a job.
Funny, within the past 4 hours I just got two freelance offers. Nothing perminent...but it'll pay the rent. Still think there is a loooong road for many of us. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
well show must go on : good luck for finding a good job in the next month.
Just a thought : i think many companies (Europe included) take the excuse of the 11 september in order to fire many people. The crisis of course was patent, but some companies seems to over-react. Of course it's just a thouhgt (no proof), any comment about this
SYRIA FORM AXIS OF JUST AS EVIL</a>
Cuba, Sudan, Serbia Form Axis of Somewhat Evil; Other Nations Start Own Clubs
[quote]Beijing (SatireWire.com) - Bitter after being snubbed for membership in the "Axis of Evil," Libya, China, and Syria today announced they had formed the "Axis of Just as Evil," which they said would be way eviler than that stupid Iran-Iraq-North Korea axis President Bush warned of his State of the Union address.
Axis of Evil members, however, immediately dismissed the new axis as having, for starters, a really dumb name. "Right. They are Just as Evil... in their dreams!" declared North Korean leader Kim Jong-il. "Everybody knows we're the best evils... best at being evil... we're the best."
Diplomats from Syria denied they were jealous over being excluded, although they conceded they did ask if they could join the Axis of Evil.
"They told us it was full," said Syrian President Bashar al-Assad...<hr></blockquote>
But here is the probelm with that. Mainly, it is a philosphical difference.
1) The US, like it nor not, IS a superpower in the economic and military sense. That carries certain duties with it, such as protecting other nations and acting as the police. If not the US, then who?
2) Since we are a superpower, if something is going to happen in the world then generally, WE are going to make it happen. Yep, it sounds nationlistic. But I am of the philosophy that someone has to do the dirty work, and since it is us, we are going to call the shots.
Ok, and pfllam, you obviously don't read. I never said everyone here was younger than me....and that doesn't ALWAYS mean one's opinions are less "well thought out" (though often!) I also speciffically apologized in advance for condscension, but I don't think there is better way to say it: some people are truly naive.
Finally, as for the "towing of the government line" thing goes: I think we have a duty as Americans to support his war. I also think that bush is right, these nation's governments ARE evil. There is evidence all over the place, from genocide to agression to letting one's own starve for the sake of spending 75% of the nations budget on military expenses. In addition, the people have about zero personal freedom. Tolernace of other cultures is fine. I understand that American values are not shared by all....but I also operate under a consistent philosophy that I believe is "right". This is simply that democracy and freedom are the only ways to have a lasting nation and people. Those nations that oppress freedom of speech and religion are wrong....and I willnever change my mind on that.
I AM able to think critically. I do criticize the government. But, the president is right on this. We have to stop these nations now beofre they gain the powers they need to pose a serious threat to the US. The intent of them is certainly there...not even PFLLAM can deny that.
AXIS OF EVIL
<a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95001828"; target="_blank">Iranians for Bush</a>
The president sides with the people, who aspire to freedom.
BY S. ROB SOBHANI
Wednesday, February 6, 2002 12:01 a.m.
[quote]"President Bush has spoken to our hearts, which yearn for freedom. He will be remembered as another Abraham Lincoln by the freedom-loving people of Iran." These are words of support from within Iran, in reaction to last week's State of the Union address, uttered by an Iranian calling the Voice of America's Persian service. As a guest at the station that night, I witnessed hundreds of calls, faxes and e-mails from inside Iran praising Mr. Bush. For the first time since the establishment of the theocracy, a U.S. president had chosen to speak to, and for, Iran's downtrodden.
An outpouring of support from within Iran for Mr. Bush would surprise those who have heard loud criticism of aspects of his address, particularly his attack on the "axis of evil," in which he included the Iranian regime. European officials, having begun to cozy up to the Tehran mullahs, are loath to do a turnaround. Besides, the more sophisticated dislike all this talk of "evil."
But not those who suffer under the mullahs' rule, and know evil when they see it up close. An overwhelming majority of the people of Iran welcomed President Bush's comments. Here was an American president who had separated the nation of Iran from its oppressive government.
Not surprisingly, the regime's reaction has been harsh and crude. The supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, declared "the American government's statements are coming from a person thirsty for human blood." He's not alone, and Iran's "moderate" leaders, much lionized by the likes of Madeleine Albright, are just as rabid in their opposition to the U.S. president. Mohammad Khatami ripped into Mr. Bush by claiming that the State of the Union "statements were bellicose and insulting toward the great people of Iran."
In fact, Mr. Khatami's message was worse in some ways, as it amounted to an attempt to deceive the people of his country, given that Mr. Bush praised the "Iranian people's hope for freedom." But people inside Iran were not swayed by the Khatami lie: "Please President Bush, don't be fooled by such distinctions as 'reformists' and 'hardliners' in the government of Iran, since they are one and the same and part and parcel of the same evil group, opposing peace and spreading hate and terror throughout the world," said one of the messages VOA received.
These reactions point to four fundamental flaws in U.S. and European policy assumptions toward Iran that need to be addressed. The first is that the theocratic regime wants to have diplomatic relations with Washington, and that if the U.S. only tries hard enough it can convince the mullahs to play nice...<hr></blockquote>
[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>