European nations have a history of being rather Federalized, correct? For the most part, there is one nation with one set of laws and courts.
The United States has been moving in this direction for some time (from the start with people like John Adams, to post-civil war America, and finally to FDR). However, there was a span of almost 100 years where states were realitivly independent. The U.S. Federal Gov't's job during that time was to (1) tax, (2) protect against invation, (3) handle territory, (4) control currency, and lastly (5) control international terrifs.
It took a bloody civil war to push the U.S. in a real Federalist direction. Europe has decided to jump in head-long with strict laws applying to all nations-- one's that reach out further than the U.S. Federal Gov't at it's start. Do you think this is a good idea? Or should nations cozzy up a bit before forcing all nations to walk in step??
I'm getting away from my original reason for this post. What I really want to ask is what our EU friends know about the idea of a lesser state a part of a greater nation? What do you all know about state government in the U.S.? (please tell me if you've spent more than a vaction/holiday here-- should give me a clearer picture).
I do not think that the EU will have wars or anything, I am just skeptical about how stable the alliance can last with such culturally different (and historically old) nations and people.
powerdoc:
What problems with blacks in the U.S. are you talking about?
In France, about 70,000 of the 150,000 applications submitted for the regularisation of the status of aliens were rejected. In an opinion poll by the French National Commission on Human rights in early 1998, 38 percent of all French men and women said they were openly racist, 27 percent said there are too many blacks in France while 56 percent said there are too many Arabs.
French heroes include the guy who bombed McDonald's restaurants and a convicted cop killer (Mumia Abu Jamal).
I'm not attempting to bash France (I have respect for the nation, and I am enjoying powerdoc's perspective), but I think the claims that the United States is racist and morally wrong are just hypocritical when they come from Europe.
<strong>I do not think that the EU will have wars or anything, I am just skeptical about how stable the alliance can last with such culturally different (and historically old) nations and people.
powerdoc:
What problems with blacks in the U.S. are you talking about?
In France, about 70,000 of the 150,000 applications submitted for the regularisation of the status of aliens were rejected. In an opinion poll by the French National Commission on Human rights in early 1998, 38 percent of all French men and women said they were openly racist, 27 percent said there are too many blacks in France while 56 percent said there are too many Arabs.
French heroes include the guy who bombed McDonald's restaurants and a convicted cop killer (Mumia Abu Jamal).
I'm not attempting to bash France (I have respect for the nation, and I am enjoying powerdoc's perspective), but I think the claims that the United States is racist and morally wrong are just hypocritical when they come from Europe.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I just say that there is some problems with minority in US like the blacks, in France too we have problems with some minority, i did not say that US is racist, but there is some troubles in US, like in France, even if it may be differents problems. In Short i just want to say that every nation has xenophobic people.
For the french heroe Jose Bove : he is going to go in jail (for 3 months) : that's his place. Who his Abu Jamal: if he is a cop killer , his place is in jail, or somewhere in hell
third i never claim here or somewhere else that US is racist or moraly wrong. I don't like that people say i am xenophobic that's all.
I never said you yourself were a racist or a xenophobe, powerdoc, from your words in recent threads you seem to be a very intelligent and reasonable guy(girl?).
<strong>Mumia was made an honorary citizen of France.
I never said you yourself were a racist or a xenophobe, powerdoc, from your words in recent threads you seem to be a very intelligent and reasonable guy(girl?).
I never meant to insult you at all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks for the Guy, Groverat. Perhaps i am a little on nerves, i have a hard discussion with Scott, it's time to go to bed for me now, have a nice day Groverat.
You really need to get out of the good old US of A and do some travelling in order to broaden that incredibly narrow mind of yours.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not to break into you're conversation with groverat, but Americans aren't the only people who need to travel. Most Europeans know no more about America than we know about Europe or the rest of the world. You know what you read or what you see on TV, but that is only one side of the most complex nation ever to exist. I admit that many Americans are vastly ignorant of much of the world and it is a shame. However, taking a vacation to NYC or LA is not enough to understand this country. You'd need to travel through all the states, meet real Americans, live here awhile, and then you'd on your way to not being a narrow minded European.
I like Europeans and would like to talk to more of them and travel there, but it really annoys me when Europeans act like they have America figured out. You don't, and never will, no more than I will have Europe figured out. So you just do the best you can and try to learn the truth and just enjoy searching for it.
Most Europeans know no more about America than we know about Europe or the rest of the world. You know what you read or what you see on TV, but that is only one side of the most complex nation ever to exist. I admit that many Americans are vastly ignorant of much of the world and it is a shame. However, taking a vacation to NYC or LA is not enough to understand this country. You'd need to travel through all the states, meet real Americans, live here awhile, and then you'd on your way to not being a narrow minded European.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think the same. Except that in European schools we study History and Geography of our own country and also the History and Geography of America... do you learn for example French Revolution of 1789, the cause of the Berlin Wall, or the distribution of agricultural and energetic resources across the EU territory ? Or do you learn it at University, when you want to ?
Because we learn historic, geographic, geopolitic and economic forces and weaknesses of USA, since before college in Europe (in France nevertheless).
(it is just a question. I just ask because I never gone nor studied in the USA, so... i am narrow minded on this side)
I agree though that USA are a very "complex nation" to understand, and that school cannot all explain.
I'd love to spend some time in US. My cousin Jennifer has both nationalities (French & American), and for now she lives in California. I think I will come to see her some day.
I think the same. Except that in European schools we study History and Geography of our own country and also the History and Geography of America... do you learn for example French Revolution of 1789, the cause of the Berlin Wall, or the distribution of agricultural and energetic resources across the EU territory ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I had pretty good schooling in High School and I've always enjoyed reading about history. But it is true that for the most part, and in many areas, the US education system is not very strong in history and geography. What kids learn depends on them, their teachers, their parents and how rich the school system. More money tends to equal better students, but not always. Most high schools teach US and world history and geography in the younger grades.
I think the same. Except that in European schools we study History and Geography of our own country and also the History and Geography of America... do you learn for example French Revolution of 1789, the cause of the Berlin Wall, or the distribution of agricultural and energetic resources across the EU territory ? Or do you learn it at University, when you want to ?
Because we learn historic, geographic, geopolitic and economic forces and weaknesses of USA, since before college in Europe (in France nevertheless).
(it is just a question. I just ask because I never gone nor studied in the USA, so... i am narrow minded on this side)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, yes. For the most part I did have classes in some European History. But it still does not show enough to let me know how your culture is. Reading about a culture does not usually give you the mind set that comes of it, Especially in a history book where it is mostly sterilized facts and numbers.
If you study history in college, you are hard pressed to not study European (more specifically, western European) history.
And regarding them 'Merikuns:
I read somewhere that only 20% of Americans even have a valid Passport. Only 1 in 5.
One thing that can be hard for Europeans to imagine about the US is the sheer scale of this country. If you grew up in the middle, like I did, you can find yourself surrounded for miles and miles and miles by people who predominately speak English and have recognizable cultural similarities. For literally thousands of miles in each direction.
For something comparable, you'd have to be in e.g. Russia or China. But even in those countries the populace speaks a multitude of languages. Over here in North America we may speak a multitude as well, but the linga franca of English is so obvious it's not even much commented on, unless you cross to Mexico or Québec.
This kind of geographic reality has its psychological analogue ? primarily in a poverty of imaging what other ways there might be to live.
What makes me really sad about the comments about growing up in homogenic sorroundings in the middle of the USA, is how things are developing here in Denmark and other european countries like Italy and Austria.. Being relatively "close" to people speaking other languages and having other cultural habits you would think people in this country and the EU in general wouldn't be xenophobic - trying to shield themselves from foreign influences. But apparently being closer to other kinds than your own generates a greater wish for isolation..
The sad thing is that my own country and others recently have elected goverments that base their power in nationalistic, half-fascist, half-racist parties - Jörg Haider in Austria, Pia Kjaersgard in Denmark, Gianfranco Fini in Italy. A lot of people (i know, "liberals", Scott H.) are beginning to see similarities with the situation in the 1930's Germany.
Some would say that the 'old' social democratic parties in Europe has grown too tight to their seats in the national parliaments and we need 'fresh solutions' - but thats also what people said in Germany when they elected Hitler for Reichskansler.
I don't think one should neccesarily be scared of new political developments, banning your opponents as 'bad company' or evil. But I think there is a real need to be alert and continue the discussions. Like here :-)
All countries need to work on their problems, be them socially (internal conflicts) or external (foreign policy). Especially the United States I admit more so because we are the number one super power and should be an example for the free world. I think we have been doing a good job so far but there are some things we can work on. (It's lonely at the top). But also smaller countries like in the EU because if they hope to acheive a unity on that continent like I'm sure they are trying to, they will need to be less critical of their allies and see a different viewpoint.
<strong>A lot of people (i know, "liberals", Scott H.) are beginning to see similarities with the situation in the 1930's Germany.
Some would say that the 'old' social democratic parties in Europe has grown too tight to their seats in the national parliaments and we need 'fresh solutions' - but thats also what people said in Germany when they elected Hitler for Reichskansler.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know enough about the people in your political parties to know if they are like the nazis or not. Consider this though. If you want to hold on to your political power and fear someone from the "right" why not go ahead and label them a nazi? If it's true or not. That's the same tactic the NAACP used on Bush.
Being relatively "close" to people speaking other languages and having other cultural habits you would think people in this country and the EU in general wouldn't be xenophobic - trying to shield themselves from foreign influences. But apparently being closer to other kinds than your own generates a greater wish for isolation.<hr></blockquote>
You would think. Xenophobia appears to be alive and well because of contact with other cultures (your example of some people in Europe) and, at the same time, despite contact with other cultures (my example of some people in North America). Very interesting.
So, xenophobia has less to do with contact, and more to do with ignorance, fright and manipulations by politicians. After all, if you can appeal to a person's racist fears, you may be able to jack a vote out of them.
Hey Prim, I graduated from a California public high school (state with the second worst schools in the Union) three years ago and took classes that well covered the French Revolution (3 of the 4 years of high school). One of those years also included an extensive look at European geography. It was a very valuable experience--- but still, I learned about it in high school -- not college. Furthermore, when I was in the 6th grade (12 years old), I had world geography shoved down my throat!
What do you think we do all day in school? Shoot one another? Geez.
Comments
The United States has been moving in this direction for some time (from the start with people like John Adams, to post-civil war America, and finally to FDR). However, there was a span of almost 100 years where states were realitivly independent. The U.S. Federal Gov't's job during that time was to (1) tax, (2) protect against invation, (3) handle territory, (4) control currency, and lastly (5) control international terrifs.
It took a bloody civil war to push the U.S. in a real Federalist direction. Europe has decided to jump in head-long with strict laws applying to all nations-- one's that reach out further than the U.S. Federal Gov't at it's start. Do you think this is a good idea? Or should nations cozzy up a bit before forcing all nations to walk in step??
I'm getting away from my original reason for this post. What I really want to ask is what our EU friends know about the idea of a lesser state a part of a greater nation? What do you all know about state government in the U.S.? (please tell me if you've spent more than a vaction/holiday here-- should give me a clearer picture).
Thanks.
powerdoc:
What problems with blacks in the U.S. are you talking about?
In France, about 70,000 of the 150,000 applications submitted for the regularisation of the status of aliens were rejected. In an opinion poll by the French National Commission on Human rights in early 1998, 38 percent of all French men and women said they were openly racist, 27 percent said there are too many blacks in France while 56 percent said there are too many Arabs.
<a href="http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/sept98/12_34_035.html"; target="_blank">http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/sept98/12_34_035.html</a>;
French heroes include the guy who bombed McDonald's restaurants and a convicted cop killer (Mumia Abu Jamal).
I'm not attempting to bash France (I have respect for the nation, and I am enjoying powerdoc's perspective), but I think the claims that the United States is racist and morally wrong are just hypocritical when they come from Europe.
<strong>I do not think that the EU will have wars or anything, I am just skeptical about how stable the alliance can last with such culturally different (and historically old) nations and people.
powerdoc:
What problems with blacks in the U.S. are you talking about?
In France, about 70,000 of the 150,000 applications submitted for the regularisation of the status of aliens were rejected. In an opinion poll by the French National Commission on Human rights in early 1998, 38 percent of all French men and women said they were openly racist, 27 percent said there are too many blacks in France while 56 percent said there are too many Arabs.
<a href="http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/sept98/12_34_035.html"; target="_blank">http://www.oneworld.org/ips2/sept98/12_34_035.html</a>;
French heroes include the guy who bombed McDonald's restaurants and a convicted cop killer (Mumia Abu Jamal).
I'm not attempting to bash France (I have respect for the nation, and I am enjoying powerdoc's perspective), but I think the claims that the United States is racist and morally wrong are just hypocritical when they come from Europe.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I just say that there is some problems with minority in US like the blacks, in France too we have problems with some minority, i did not say that US is racist, but there is some troubles in US, like in France, even if it may be differents problems. In Short i just want to say that every nation has xenophobic people.
For the french heroe Jose Bove : he is going to go in jail (for 3 months) : that's his place. Who his Abu Jamal: if he is a cop killer , his place is in jail, or somewhere in hell
third i never claim here or somewhere else that US is racist or moraly wrong. I don't like that people say i am xenophobic that's all.
I never said you yourself were a racist or a xenophobe, powerdoc, from your words in recent threads you seem to be a very intelligent and reasonable guy(girl?).
I never meant to insult you at all.
<strong>Mumia was made an honorary citizen of France.
I never said you yourself were a racist or a xenophobe, powerdoc, from your words in recent threads you seem to be a very intelligent and reasonable guy(girl?).
I never meant to insult you at all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks for the Guy, Groverat. Perhaps i am a little on nerves, i have a hard discussion with Scott, it's time to go to bed for me now, have a nice day Groverat.
anyway he is a smart man that has used perhaps inapropriate and illegal efforts towards a very good cause . . . but I won't go into it now
<strong>The purpose of the EU is to regain Europe's relevance in the face of the dominant US.
I looked up "EU" in the groverat dictionary, its synonyms are "clusterf*ck" and "time bomb".
Things are good now (and let's all pray it remains that way), but many of these nations historically hate each other.
But I wish them the best of luck.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You do talk some crap, groverat, and then some.
You really need to get out of the good old US of A and do some travelling in order to broaden that incredibly narrow mind of yours.
<strong>
You do talk some crap, groverat, and then some.
You really need to get out of the good old US of A and do some travelling in order to broaden that incredibly narrow mind of yours.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not to break into you're conversation with groverat, but Americans aren't the only people who need to travel. Most Europeans know no more about America than we know about Europe or the rest of the world. You know what you read or what you see on TV, but that is only one side of the most complex nation ever to exist. I admit that many Americans are vastly ignorant of much of the world and it is a shame. However, taking a vacation to NYC or LA is not enough to understand this country. You'd need to travel through all the states, meet real Americans, live here awhile, and then you'd on your way to not being a narrow minded European.
I like Europeans and would like to talk to more of them and travel there, but it really annoys me when Europeans act like they have America figured out. You don't, and never will, no more than I will have Europe figured out. So you just do the best you can and try to learn the truth and just enjoy searching for it.
It's just that some people maybe need to travel more than others if only to get them to come down from their high (Texan) horses . . .
<strong>
Most Europeans know no more about America than we know about Europe or the rest of the world. You know what you read or what you see on TV, but that is only one side of the most complex nation ever to exist. I admit that many Americans are vastly ignorant of much of the world and it is a shame. However, taking a vacation to NYC or LA is not enough to understand this country. You'd need to travel through all the states, meet real Americans, live here awhile, and then you'd on your way to not being a narrow minded European.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think the same. Except that in European schools we study History and Geography of our own country and also the History and Geography of America... do you learn for example French Revolution of 1789, the cause of the Berlin Wall, or the distribution of agricultural and energetic resources across the EU territory ? Or do you learn it at University, when you want to ?
Because we learn historic, geographic, geopolitic and economic forces and weaknesses of USA, since before college in Europe (in France nevertheless).
(it is just a question. I just ask because I never gone nor studied in the USA, so... i am narrow minded on this side)
I agree though that USA are a very "complex nation" to understand, and that school cannot all explain.
I'd love to spend some time in US. My cousin Jennifer has both nationalities (French & American), and for now she lives in California. I think I will come to see her some day.
<strong>
I think the same. Except that in European schools we study History and Geography of our own country and also the History and Geography of America... do you learn for example French Revolution of 1789, the cause of the Berlin Wall, or the distribution of agricultural and energetic resources across the EU territory ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I had pretty good schooling in High School and I've always enjoyed reading about history. But it is true that for the most part, and in many areas, the US education system is not very strong in history and geography. What kids learn depends on them, their teachers, their parents and how rich the school system. More money tends to equal better students, but not always. Most high schools teach US and world history and geography in the younger grades.
<strong>
I think the same. Except that in European schools we study History and Geography of our own country and also the History and Geography of America... do you learn for example French Revolution of 1789, the cause of the Berlin Wall, or the distribution of agricultural and energetic resources across the EU territory ? Or do you learn it at University, when you want to ?
Because we learn historic, geographic, geopolitic and economic forces and weaknesses of USA, since before college in Europe (in France nevertheless).
(it is just a question. I just ask because I never gone nor studied in the USA, so... i am narrow minded on this side)
Actually, yes. For the most part I did have classes in some European History. But it still does not show enough to let me know how your culture is. Reading about a culture does not usually give you the mind set that comes of it, Especially in a history book where it is mostly sterilized facts and numbers.
And regarding them 'Merikuns:
I read somewhere that only 20% of Americans even have a valid Passport. Only 1 in 5.
One thing that can be hard for Europeans to imagine about the US is the sheer scale of this country. If you grew up in the middle, like I did, you can find yourself surrounded for miles and miles and miles by people who predominately speak English and have recognizable cultural similarities. For literally thousands of miles in each direction.
For something comparable, you'd have to be in e.g. Russia or China. But even in those countries the populace speaks a multitude of languages. Over here in North America we may speak a multitude as well, but the linga franca of English is so obvious it's not even much commented on, unless you cross to Mexico or Québec.
This kind of geographic reality has its psychological analogue ? primarily in a poverty of imaging what other ways there might be to live.
[ 02-10-2002: Message edited by: Timo ]</p>
The sad thing is that my own country and others recently have elected goverments that base their power in nationalistic, half-fascist, half-racist parties - Jörg Haider in Austria, Pia Kjaersgard in Denmark, Gianfranco Fini in Italy. A lot of people (i know, "liberals", Scott H.) are beginning to see similarities with the situation in the 1930's Germany.
Some would say that the 'old' social democratic parties in Europe has grown too tight to their seats in the national parliaments and we need 'fresh solutions' - but thats also what people said in Germany when they elected Hitler for Reichskansler.
I don't think one should neccesarily be scared of new political developments, banning your opponents as 'bad company' or evil. But I think there is a real need to be alert and continue the discussions. Like here :-)
<strong>A lot of people (i know, "liberals", Scott H.) are beginning to see similarities with the situation in the 1930's Germany.
Some would say that the 'old' social democratic parties in Europe has grown too tight to their seats in the national parliaments and we need 'fresh solutions' - but thats also what people said in Germany when they elected Hitler for Reichskansler.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know enough about the people in your political parties to know if they are like the nazis or not. Consider this though. If you want to hold on to your political power and fear someone from the "right" why not go ahead and label them a nazi? If it's true or not. That's the same tactic the NAACP used on Bush.
Being relatively "close" to people speaking other languages and having other cultural habits you would think people in this country and the EU in general wouldn't be xenophobic - trying to shield themselves from foreign influences. But apparently being closer to other kinds than your own generates a greater wish for isolation.<hr></blockquote>
You would think. Xenophobia appears to be alive and well because of contact with other cultures (your example of some people in Europe) and, at the same time, despite contact with other cultures (my example of some people in North America). Very interesting.
So, xenophobia has less to do with contact, and more to do with ignorance, fright and manipulations by politicians. After all, if you can appeal to a person's racist fears, you may be able to jack a vote out of them.
Xenophobia is about politics.
<strong>I don't agree with that at all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Gonna tell us why?
What do you think we do all day in school? Shoot one another? Geez.