Unauthorized Mac clone maker Psystar appeals Apple lawsuit

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  • Reply 101 of 131
    i would feel deceived as a consumer if psystar won any of their insane lawsuits against apple...because that'd show that apple can produce incredible products and software but cannot safeguard their intellectual property
  • Reply 102 of 131
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,755member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Wiggin View Post


    Those three words pretty much sum up how ignorant Psystar and their lawyers truly are.



    Crazy.... like a fox!



    I have finally figured out who Paystar's backer is!



    RMS!
  • Reply 103 of 131
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,755member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frugality View Post


    So since MS is larger (not quite a monopoly)



    Actually Microsoft is a convicted monopolist.



    As someone else suggested, you might want to read up on some history.
  • Reply 104 of 131
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DJRumpy View Post


    It's not different at all. Buy an HP or a Dell, and try to put their 'Windows Image' disk in another brand PC, and you'll get a message that you can't install it because it's not an HP, Dell, or whatever.



    People just confuse MS with hardware vendors. It is to their benefit that it installs on as much hardware as possible, across many vendors. Apple however, just acts like a standard hardware vendor.



    Yes, I was referring to Psytar's use of an off the shelf copy of OS X that they paid for (not an OEM disk.) Confusing this EULA with an off the shelf copy of Microsoft's Windows EULA would be easy to do if you don't read it--meaning focusing on the reports siding with Psystar. In that case "common sense" really doesn't apply, because the common understanding is that MS' EULA allows you to install Windows on one PC of your choosing. Apple's never has. They have, however, branded image disks to their individual machines (iMac, MBP, etc), which is a wholly separate matter.
  • Reply 105 of 131
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post


    If you so happen to buy a Mac right after a major OS update, Apple will usually supply a upgrade only disk, which can't be used to install the OS, just upgrade the older one.



    Not to be facetious, but I've never seen this before.



    My friend happened to buy a unibody MBP with Leopard installed, after SL was released. The Apple Store just threw a boxed copy of SL in the bag. It wasn't designated as upgrade only, because every one of their OS's is upgrade only. You can still do a fresh install off these disks though, because it would be stupid to have only the option to update an existing OS. They seem to never run as "fresh" as a clean install. Can you point me to a disk designated as upgrade only?



    Meaning what you inferred--one would need an existing earlier OS on the hard disk or it won't run?
  • Reply 106 of 131
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gazoobee View Post


    You....



    Nice post. And I'd like to thank you for using bold for emphasis instead of caps. So, thank you!

  • Reply 107 of 131
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    . . .
  • Reply 108 of 131
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I?ve seen it. I bought my "refurbished? 12? PowerBook immediately after Panther launched. The machine box came with the Jaguar Restore Disc and the machine with Panther installed (though they forget to put in the last DVD to complete the installation). The Panther Restore Discs were in white paper sleeves, they weren?t pleasant to look at and had a simple "Mac OS X Panther Restore for 12? PowerBook? or something to that extent.



    I don?t think they issue those now unless you call up Apple Care and say you are missing a disc or its damaged. I had that latter happen and received a simpler disc with a different mac years later.



    I?ve never seen it happen when buying a new Mac and Apple Stores now seem pretty quick to update the Macs to the latest version of Mac OS X.



    So you're saying the Panther restore disks required you to first install Jaguar?
  • Reply 109 of 131
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post


    Apple comes along as says "you can't use our OS on anything but our machines". Well that just smacks in the face of everything a geek learns in school and how the computing world works.



    That is, of course, absurd. The entire computing industry today is based on the principle that the creator owns the product and can decide how to license it. Are you arguing that Microsoft should lose the right to restrict site licenses to the sites they are sold to? Or that it should be OK for me to buy 1,000 student licenses for Windows and sell them at full retail?



    The only apparent exception (open source software) isn't an exception at all. OSS comes with a license that tells you what you can do with the software. The fact that OSS developers don't charge for the software doesn't eliminate the fact that their license controls what you do with it.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post


    So Apple should call their computers PC's with the choice of operating systems, either OS X, Linux or Windows and be done with it. Triple their sales volume too boot.



    Not a chance. Linux users are almost always cheap and would never pay for a quality Apple machine. Windows users are, by and large, Apple-haters and wouldn't buy a Mac. The tiny number of people who would run Windows on a Mac already do.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frugality View Post


    Even though I'm happy with my MBP, I applaud Psystar. You can't just put what you like in an EULA and assume that that makes it legal.



    No. You have to wait for a court decision - which has now been done. What Psystar did is illegal. End of discussion.



    I'm sick of these "I want to use OS X and don't want to pay Apple for a Mac" whiners. The concept is very simple. I'll try to explain it using small words. Apple made OS X. They can do what they want. They don't have to let you use it at all. You have NO rights to use OS X. Now, because Apple wants to make money, they say "we'll let you use OS X under SOME conditions if you pay us for a license". If you don't pay, you don't have a license. If you don't agree with the conditions, you don't have a license. A license is a contract. It only works if both parties to the contract agree. By the fact that you're not agreeing with the license, THERE IS NO CONTRACT and you therefore have zero right to use it.



    To those of you claiming that you BOUGHT OS X, you're just plain wrong. If you owned it, you could make 1 million copies and sell them - which you clearly don't have the right to do. If you owned it, you could name it "Mike's OS" and sell it to anyone you wish under that name. You don't have the right to do that, either. Even if Apple would consider selling you OS X in its entirety, it would cost you billions of dollars. Did you spend that much for the retail box you bought?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post


    Want the OS X look without OS X? Install Ubuntu Linux and the Mac4lin theme.



    Yeah, I guess that's true - if you're not bright enough to understand the difference between an OS and a wallpaper. No matter how you dress Ubuntu up, it doesn't have the ease of use and elegance of OS X. You may not care, but many people do.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frugality View Post


    Thank you, you're helping to make my point. Some folks here think that just because an exclusivity is written into Apple's EULA, that it's legal. The difference between MS and Apple has to do with their size, not how EULAs can be used.



    No, its not. The difference is that Microsoft has been ruled a monopoly in the PC operating system and Apple has not. Furthermore, Microsoft has been found to have abused that monopoly. THAT is the difference.



    Microsoft chose a different marketing strategy than Apple which paid off handsomely for them, but that doesn't mean that it's the only strategy they could have chosen. If Microsoft had decided in 1982 that MS DOS could only be used on IBM systems, it would have been perfectly legal.
  • Reply 110 of 131
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post


    Your contradicting yourself.



    A Dell is a Dell, a IBM is a IBM, a HP is a HP and a ..... Apple is a Apple.



    You see your using the companies name to describe the computer it comes from.



    In fact Apple Computer used to use the slogan "Get a Apple" a long time ago.



    That's only because you're either misinformed or not thinking straight.



    Dell is the manufacturer. The computer is an Inspiron, for example.



    IBM is the manufacturer (actually, not any more, now it's Lenovo). ThinkPad is the computer.



    Anyone who says the bought a Dell is making a statement like "I just bought a new General Motors". It's not incorrect, but it's also extremely misleading and imprecise.
  • Reply 111 of 131
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by technohermit View Post


    So you're saying the Panther restore disks required you to first install Jaguar?



    No, I?m saying that the Restore Disc was only for that PowerBook model. Ah, I see that I have misunderstood that conversation. Mea culpa.
  • Reply 112 of 131
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    No, I’m saying that the Restore Disc was only for that PowerBook model. Ah, I see that I have misunderstood that conversation. Mea culpa.



    It's all good

    I was thinking if 'Tripper could do it, it may change my EULA position a bit. Windows disks do in fact check for previous versions when designated as upgrade only, so there would be some confusion there between a "retail" OS X disk and an "upgrade only" OS X disk, which I've never seen. And for good reason, they are all upgrade only disks. Unlike Windows upgrade disks, though, because they allow clean installs, upgrade installs, as well as archive and installs.
  • Reply 113 of 131
    hillstoneshillstones Posts: 1,490member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by MacTripper View Post


    If you so happen to buy a Mac right after a major OS update, Apple will usually supply a upgrade only disk, which can't be used to install the OS, just upgrade the older one.



    Wrong. Apple doesn't offer any such "upgrade" disc that only upgrades prior versions. I have done the "Up to Date" program with both Mac OS X and iLife. My iLife '09 disc is a "Drop in CPU" disc and it is no different than the retail version. A prior version of iLife is not required for installation. My Snow Leopard disc is also the $9.95 "Not for Resale" upgrade copy and it is no different than the retail version. It will install Snow Leopard on a reformatted hard drive that does not require a previous version of OS X to be updated.



    No version of the Mac OS has ever been an "upgrade" in which it required a previous version to be installed or verified. You can buy a copy of Mac OS X and install it on a blank hard drive.



    However, in the Windows world, if you buy one of their "upgrade" versions, it requires a previous version to be installed on the hard drive, or scan a previous version CD, in order for the installation to continue. That is what an upgrade version is, it verifies ownership of a previous version. The full price "retail" version of Windows does not require verification of a previous version and can be installed on a blank hard drive.
  • Reply 114 of 131
    hillstoneshillstones Posts: 1,490member
    Nothing ever smart came out of Florida.



    I love their comment of, "We don't condone piracy and we have never done that." What a load of SHIT. They bought a Mac Mini, hacked OS X, and used that Mini to image and clone every piece of shit PC they made. They didn't buy a copy of Mac OS X for each PC they made, and that was proven in discovery. The retail copy of Mac OS X was useless unless you signed over all your rights against the company and then they gave you their special CD to hack the software so you could reinstall OS X.



    They are nothing more than worthless thieves. The book analogy is excellent. You cannot do whatever you want with a book. You don't have the right to copy said book, and resell it as your own. That is illegal too. They are just a bunch of typical PC dumbshits.
  • Reply 115 of 131
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frugality View Post


    Go Psystar!!!



    So sick of this screw the corporation mentality. Everyone wants the greatest new technology at dirt cheap prices & they think they have the right to tell companies to just bend over & take it cause "I want, I want, I want!!!"



    Apple has worked hard to progress technology instead of stifle it. They've given a ton back to open-source communities. Sure they gain from some open-source too but even in doing that they are doing open-source a big favor since they are bringing real weight behind those projects allowing them to flourish out beyond the super geekdom.



    They've also been huge in pushing customer expectation for quality & service, something all users benefit from because now others like Dell & HP want to drag their own name out of the mud.



    Psystar is just making a fool of themselves. They need to just go the way of the dodo.
  • Reply 116 of 131
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hillstones View Post


    Wrong. Apple doesn't offer any such "upgrade" disc that only upgrades prior versions. I have done the "Up to Date" program with both Mac OS X and iLife. My iLife '09 disc is a "Drop in CPU" disc and it is no different than the retail version. A prior version of iLife is not required for installation. My Snow Leopard disc is also the $9.95 "Not for Resale" upgrade copy and it is no different than the retail version. It will install Snow Leopard on a reformatted hard drive that does not require a previous version of OS X to be updated.



    No version of the Mac OS has ever been an "upgrade" in which it required a previous version to be installed or verified. You can buy a copy of Mac OS X and install it on a blank hard drive.



    However, in the Windows world, if you buy one of their "upgrade" versions, it requires a previous version to be installed on the hard drive, or scan a previous version CD, in order for the installation to continue. That is what an upgrade version is, it verifies ownership of a previous version. The full price "retail" version of Windows does not require verification of a previous version and can be installed on a blank hard drive.



    Almost correct, Apple did ship some discs requiring Panther be installed for some of their Tiger Discs that shipped for that extra $10 if you bought a Panther machine just before the announcement of Tiger. I know cause I got one when I bought my first Mac & when I reloaded it before selling it I was required to reinstall Panther & then Tiger.



    I don't know about before that but I know with Leopard that all changed & you simply installed Leopard & then put in your Tiger disc to install the iLife & other optional packages.
  • Reply 117 of 131
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by MacTripper

    Your contradicting yourself.



    A Dell is a Dell, a IBM is a IBM, a HP is a HP and a ..... Apple is a Apple.



    You see your using the companies name to describe the computer it comes from.



    In fact Apple Computer used to use the slogan "Get a Apple" a long time ago.

    End Quote



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    That's only because you're either misinformed or not thinking straight.



    Dell is the manufacturer. The computer is an Inspiron, for example.



    IBM is the manufacturer (actually, not any more, now it's Lenovo). ThinkPad is the computer.



    Anyone who says the bought a Dell is making a statement like "I just bought a new General Motors". It's not incorrect, but it's also extremely misleading and imprecise.



    Someone can correct me if I'm wrong I believe Mac & PC became terms out side of their original technical meaning back in the early days of the Microsoft/Apple wars. At that time the acronym PC moved from just Personal Computer to describe any MS-DOS/Windows running computer due to their massive dominance of that market and Apple's own attempts to shirk the label of PC. The name Macintosh was a model just like PowerBook or MacBook but the term Mac was actually coined to give a name to the operating system that came on an Apple Macintosh computer. The name Mac actually refers to the OS running on an Apple computer & is not from the machine model name.



    What makes it more interesting is that the Mach microkernel was used in the original NeXTSTEP OS developed by Steve Jobs (also exits in current OS X). One might wonder if the Mac name to the OS might come from here but it would seem very unlikely since the original Mac OS was not based on that microkernel. The name Macintosh is actually a type of apple(the fruit) & since the original OS for the first Macintosh computer officially had no name upon release Mac properly ensued as they needed a name to distinguish the GUI based OS from other DOS offerings on the market.



    In completely technical terms Macs are a Personal Computer but the term PC is now heavily associated with Microsoft Windows & Apple has retained the name Mac in their OS offerings allowing them to still be called Macs. Chances are the name PC will live on to be thought of as Windows installed computers until Microsoft looses their market majority on the non-Apple Personal Computer and even then it may be that a new acronym will be coined to describe non-Windows computers of other OS type that begin to flood the market in the future.
  • Reply 118 of 131
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frugality View Post


    Go Psystar!!!



    Makes no sense. I mean the efi program is free at osx86 and the only sense to make a hac would be a 4-8 core machine for $800 otherwise. A waste of time. I can understand there is now mid range machine that's headless but I've tried a hack. Not one problem

    works as advertised. But pystar needs to give it a rest.
  • Reply 119 of 131
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by frugality View Post


    Even though I'm happy with my MBP, I applaud Psystar. You can't just put what you like in an EULA and assume that that makes it legal. What if Microsoft had stated in their EULA that you had to accept IE as the default browser? They're making the product -- they have the right to determine what's in it and control the experience. You have the option to buy it and agree to the EULA, or not buy it and go get something else.



    But as Apple shows this was NOT about the EULA but Psystar breaking the DMCA based code Apple used to prevent MacOS X from being installed on non mac-software.
  • Reply 120 of 131
    mactrippermactripper Posts: 1,328member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hillstones View Post


    Wrong. Apple doesn't offer any such "upgrade" disc that only upgrades prior versions.





    No they don't offer it for sale, but it exists and it's free with a new machine if you catch it at the right time, like buying a new Mac right after a OS X upgrade release.



    It's used so they don't have to disturb the packaging.



    Did for me with Jaguar to Panther when I bought a new machine the night Panther was released.





    It won't install the OS, just upgrade the older one.
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