[quote]I didn't know 'stones' was french for bullets. Interesting.<hr></blockquote>
[quote]No you have it wrong. "Stones" is French for "high quality explosives" and also "bomb children and launch rockets" as well as ?bomb bus full of people going to a wedding?.
I think that French anti-Semitism is showing itself here.<hr></blockquote>
I'm sick and tired of the crap that goes on in here.
When I express an opinion, it is mine, not that of all french people. When will you guys understand that? Can there not be a single thread here that will not result in illegitimate french bashing?
I came in this thread with a fresh mind, wanting to leave the mutual bashing in the other thread behind me, maybe get some constructive discussion going.
But no, a single post and the only answers I get is it getting discredited because it's french.
Why?
What is it with the so-called french anti-semitism???? ScottH I seem to recall you posting in the other thread you never said France was xenophobic. Well you just did, so I guess we can discredit your authenticty.
I used to love this place for what it was. Recently though, it has become ridiculously idiotic and brain-less.
What did I say that made you feel so threatened as to attack me, of all persons, as a french citizen? Have you even seen my face? Have you? You wouldn't really call me the typical french guy if you had.
But alas, just like it's more convenient to blame Arafat for everything, it's easier to just discard any disturbing opinions as that of "toads". Is it not?
Arafat could be killed tomorrow, it wouldn't change a thing.
And when I talked about "stones", I was schematising the situation. I guess when somebody talks about an Intifadeh you just laugh your ass off because it means "War of Stones". Oh, but you quite probably didn't know the meaning of the word did you? I was just trying to show the disbalance btw the metods used by palestinians and Israelis.
All is was trying to say is that there are issues on both sides here, and that accusing either side is not going to resolve anything over-night, the hatred is much deeply-entrenched.
But since, mature, educated, adult people on these boards can not tolerate opinions other than theirs simply because they are that of a "Toad", I think it is best for me to just discard thoses posts, and find some other board, with more tolerant, level-headed people.
I wonder what the moderators are doing though.
I've been thoroughly disappointed by the behavior of some people on these boards. I'd like to congratulate you for making me feel like an unwelcome foreigner.
Well my point was stones and bullets are TOTALLY different weapons. Throwing stones is rarely leathal but one bullet can be very easily. I doubt the palistinian militants are using stones as their main offense.
Didn't you hear? The French Ambassador to the UK is on the record with some very anti-semitic remarks at a party. When confronted it the your government backed him up and refused to recall him. Also the growing violence in your country toward the Jews that your police force likes to ignore. And the open hostility, lies and half truth you spread about Israel.
My advice is not to leave. Just ignore the comments made by some people. You know, those close minded guys who usually do nothing but insert little one line, non thought provoking posts, which seem pretty worthless at face value.
Ignore. That's what I try do. Of course, there is a button for that now. You'll see it when you click on a person's profile.
You'll just find more one liner guys at another board.
Unfortunately, it means I end up ignoring most of the topics started by 'those persons', and don't even bother reading their replies anymore, but you can't let them get to you.
It's weird. They ban Macintosh for talking to himself, but people can be insulting and get away with it, while driving away non insulting people in the process. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
I mean, it's ok to have an opinion and to disagree with other peoples opinions, but being a jerk is just being a jerk.
Oh, and for what its worth, I wouldn't trust Arafat any farther than he can swim - nobel prize or not. I think powerdoc discussed the complex layers of problems in that area quite well.
so Scott, please explain why 200 palestinian children have been killed in the last year? there is terrorism on both sides here. And If you hate terrorism this much, please hate Sharon a bit as well, ok?
Israel is becoming more and more comparable to Apartheid South Africa: Divided by race and the economy dependent on that division and the population kept away from the knowing the truth of the conditions of the Underclass.
Why should a jew from Ukraine who have never been in Israel have more rights in it than someone who have lived all his life in Israeli controlled territory and done nothing wrong? Why is it all right for Israel to knock down innocent peoples houses as retaliation for actions people unknown to them did? And please don´t give me that anti-semite card. Then you haven´t paid enough attention and read any of the responses I have made to you regarding Israel in other threads
To put it in perspective: Would it be okay if I could move to US and have more rights than atheist who have lived there all his life because I was a baptized christian? Would it be okay to knock down Hope for what wrongs Clinton did and what about ANC? Where they terrorists that should learn the lesson the hard way?
seb : thanks, I gave some people here a little more credibility than they deserved, but now I know what to ignore... I wonder what happened to Macintosh though
ScottH will probably ignore the sources you will submit to him, because it's not what he saw on Fox News. Of course, the issue is quite simple, Arafat tells all those palestinians, who are all terrorists by the way, to go blow themselves up near Israelis, all this of course unprovoked by Sharon. And all French people are anti-semit because one idiot ambassador is. The world is so simple I wonder why people discuss those issues
this article, dating from november, talks about over 70 palestinian children dead at that point.
This is close to 20% of palestinian casualties being children. Notice I've linked to an article in english, as some here have trouble giving credibility to anything written in other languages.
Ariel Sharon is an idiot, even the Israeli press agrees on that. Arafat is not competent anymore to lead his people towards peace. Unfortunately, the only other leaders the palestinian people have got are not the ones fighting for peace.
The nationalisms of both people involved are way to exacerbated to allow peaceful coexistence. Israel has to realize the palestinians deserve their own country. The palestinians need to understand Jerusalem will never be theirs. Unfortunately both people are unwilling to make any sacrifices.
It is easy to discard the actions of palestinians as simple and blind "terrorism" when one refuses to acknowledge the fact that the same palestinians that blow themselves up in public places also saw the loss of a loved one to the Israeli army.
I'm not defending the actions though, because that simplistic conclusion is quite certain to be reached, just like my anti-semitism...
Both sides have valid requests, both sides are oppressed; unfortunately both sides are employing the wrong methods to get what they want.
And to clarify my stance on Arafat, yes he was a terrorist, he's not 100% clean now either, but he certainly isn't responsible for all the wrongs of extremists.
<strong>are you saying that is wrong? ok, if its right (and if I can prove it), will you admit that Sharon is just as much a terrorist as Arafat?</strong><hr></blockquote>
If it's right and you can prove it it still doesn't mean Sharon is a terrorist. Did Israel attack a bus full of Palistinians going to a wedding or a mall full of teenagers?
The problem is there is no easy solution. Palestine existed since the late 1800's till the middle of this past century. Depending which way you look at it, Jews controlled Israel 1500 years before Christ and lived there quite a few years after 70AD. And they were given by Britain a jewish state in the late 40's. Now, it's 2002. Who has more right? Personally I think the jews but what do I know? It's hard to quantify and there will never be a peaceful resolution if it's left to them. Either some super-power will have to be involved, or the fighting will last forever or until they anihillate each other. I think the main issue is that muslims don't want to live next to jews. At all. On the same planet. In the same galaxy.
I think it was wrong what we did in 1948. It was clearly bad conscience in Europe from WWII that resulted in Israel (and a great deal of terrorism from Jews under the british administration performed by terrorists who today is heroes in Israel) and wrong that other people should suffer from it.
But today is today. Several generations have grown up in Israel so today Israel is a fact. So the only solution is both Israel and a palestinian state. And for those who say its impossible to find a solution just think of South Africa. A peaceful solution was more out of the question 20 years ago than a ditto is in middle east today
<strong>seb : thanks, I gave some people here a little more credibility than they deserved, but now I know what to ignore... I wonder what happened to Macintosh though
ScottH will probably ignore the sources you will submit to him, because it's not what he saw on Fox News....
Dear brainwashed AI member. That is a one sided story. We don't know who killed that kid under what circumstances. He could have been killed by his own people or caught in the cross fire or either side. The story doesn't say or even ask the question. It's bias. Bad reporting. It's a story that's not intended to report news but rather illicit sympathy for one side over the other.
Concerning the above remarks about some superpowers intervention being the only way to solve the israel/palestine conflict:
And what superpower would that realistically be? There is only one left you know, and its hardly going to intervene at this moment. Not with the present leadership focused on terrorist fighting as its primary objective.. oh, I forgot, they allready intervene with several billion dollars every year in subsidies to the Israelis <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
and Scott H: your argument about one french ambasadors words being taken for antisemitism and therefore the whole french nation being antisemitic just makes me sick! :-(
First of all i don't recall his remarks being especially antisemitic as much as being anti-current-israeli-politics. Theres a difference. Second, lots of jews disagree with Ariel Sharons politics, and that doesn't make them antisemits.
But there you go again, talk the least negative about ISRAELI politics and you can be sure to find someone accusing you of being antisemitic..A sure (and stupid) way to strangle any balanced discussion.
<strong>and Scott H: your argument about one french ambasadors words being taken for antisemitism and therefore the whole french nation being antisemitic just makes me sick! :-(</strong><hr></blockquote>
Anti-semitism should make us all sick.
You do realize that the French government did nothing about it right?
[quote]Dear brainwashed AI member. That is a one sided story. We don't know who killed that kid under what circumstances. He could have been killed by his own people or caught in the cross fire or either side. The story doesn't say or even ask the question. It's bias. Bad reporting. It's a story that's not intended to report news but rather illicit sympathy for one side over the other.
I guess palestinians spend their time killing their own children...
Surely I am the one being brain-washed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It has happened. One case was a woman who claimed her baby was killed by the "Jews". Turns out she killed her own baby and blamed it on the "jews". I bet that didn't make it on the BBC site.
Comments
[quote]No you have it wrong. "Stones" is French for "high quality explosives" and also "bomb children and launch rockets" as well as ?bomb bus full of people going to a wedding?.
I think that French anti-Semitism is showing itself here.<hr></blockquote>
I'm sick and tired of the crap that goes on in here.
When I express an opinion, it is mine, not that of all french people. When will you guys understand that? Can there not be a single thread here that will not result in illegitimate french bashing?
I came in this thread with a fresh mind, wanting to leave the mutual bashing in the other thread behind me, maybe get some constructive discussion going.
But no, a single post and the only answers I get is it getting discredited because it's french.
Why?
What is it with the so-called french anti-semitism???? ScottH I seem to recall you posting in the other thread you never said France was xenophobic. Well you just did, so I guess we can discredit your authenticty.
I used to love this place for what it was. Recently though, it has become ridiculously idiotic and brain-less.
What did I say that made you feel so threatened as to attack me, of all persons, as a french citizen? Have you even seen my face? Have you? You wouldn't really call me the typical french guy if you had.
But alas, just like it's more convenient to blame Arafat for everything, it's easier to just discard any disturbing opinions as that of "toads". Is it not?
Arafat could be killed tomorrow, it wouldn't change a thing.
And when I talked about "stones", I was schematising the situation. I guess when somebody talks about an Intifadeh you just laugh your ass off because it means "War of Stones". Oh, but you quite probably didn't know the meaning of the word did you? I was just trying to show the disbalance btw the metods used by palestinians and Israelis.
All is was trying to say is that there are issues on both sides here, and that accusing either side is not going to resolve anything over-night, the hatred is much deeply-entrenched.
But since, mature, educated, adult people on these boards can not tolerate opinions other than theirs simply because they are that of a "Toad", I think it is best for me to just discard thoses posts, and find some other board, with more tolerant, level-headed people.
I wonder what the moderators are doing though.
I've been thoroughly disappointed by the behavior of some people on these boards. I'd like to congratulate you for making me feel like an unwelcome foreigner.
[ 02-22-2002: Message edited by: SYN ]</p>
<strong>
Look who's throwing stones now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Truth hurts.
[ 02-22-2002: Message edited by: Scott H. ]</p>
My advice is not to leave. Just ignore the comments made by some people. You know, those close minded guys who usually do nothing but insert little one line, non thought provoking posts, which seem pretty worthless at face value.
Ignore. That's what I try do. Of course, there is a button for that now. You'll see it when you click on a person's profile.
You'll just find more one liner guys at another board.
Unfortunately, it means I end up ignoring most of the topics started by 'those persons', and don't even bother reading their replies anymore, but you can't let them get to you.
It's weird. They ban Macintosh for talking to himself, but people can be insulting and get away with it, while driving away non insulting people in the process. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
I mean, it's ok to have an opinion and to disagree with other peoples opinions, but being a jerk is just being a jerk.
Oh, and for what its worth, I wouldn't trust Arafat any farther than he can swim - nobel prize or not. I think powerdoc discussed the complex layers of problems in that area quite well.
[ 02-22-2002: Message edited by: seb ]</p>
Why should a jew from Ukraine who have never been in Israel have more rights in it than someone who have lived all his life in Israeli controlled territory and done nothing wrong? Why is it all right for Israel to knock down innocent peoples houses as retaliation for actions people unknown to them did? And please don´t give me that anti-semite card. Then you haven´t paid enough attention and read any of the responses I have made to you regarding Israel in other threads
To put it in perspective: Would it be okay if I could move to US and have more rights than atheist who have lived there all his life because I was a baptized christian? Would it be okay to knock down Hope for what wrongs Clinton did and what about ANC? Where they terrorists that should learn the lesson the hard way?
ScottH will probably ignore the sources you will submit to him, because it's not what he saw on Fox News. Of course, the issue is quite simple, Arafat tells all those palestinians, who are all terrorists by the way, to go blow themselves up near Israelis, all this of course unprovoked by Sharon. And all French people are anti-semit because one idiot ambassador is. The world is so simple I wonder why people discuss those issues
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1296000/1296348.stm"; target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1296000/1296348.stm</a>;
this article, dating from november, talks about over 70 palestinian children dead at that point.
This is close to 20% of palestinian casualties being children. Notice I've linked to an article in english, as some here have trouble giving credibility to anything written in other languages.
Ariel Sharon is an idiot, even the Israeli press agrees on that. Arafat is not competent anymore to lead his people towards peace. Unfortunately, the only other leaders the palestinian people have got are not the ones fighting for peace.
The nationalisms of both people involved are way to exacerbated to allow peaceful coexistence. Israel has to realize the palestinians deserve their own country. The palestinians need to understand Jerusalem will never be theirs. Unfortunately both people are unwilling to make any sacrifices.
It is easy to discard the actions of palestinians as simple and blind "terrorism" when one refuses to acknowledge the fact that the same palestinians that blow themselves up in public places also saw the loss of a loved one to the Israeli army.
I'm not defending the actions though, because that simplistic conclusion is quite certain to be reached, just like my anti-semitism...
Both sides have valid requests, both sides are oppressed; unfortunately both sides are employing the wrong methods to get what they want.
And to clarify my stance on Arafat, yes he was a terrorist, he's not 100% clean now either, but he certainly isn't responsible for all the wrongs of extremists.
<strong>are you saying that is wrong? ok, if its right (and if I can prove it), will you admit that Sharon is just as much a terrorist as Arafat?</strong><hr></blockquote>
If it's right and you can prove it it still doesn't mean Sharon is a terrorist. Did Israel attack a bus full of Palistinians going to a wedding or a mall full of teenagers?
There is no moral equivalence.
But today is today. Several generations have grown up in Israel so today Israel is a fact. So the only solution is both Israel and a palestinian state. And for those who say its impossible to find a solution just think of South Africa. A peaceful solution was more out of the question 20 years ago than a ditto is in middle east today
<strong>seb : thanks, I gave some people here a little more credibility than they deserved, but now I know what to ignore... I wonder what happened to Macintosh though
ScottH will probably ignore the sources you will submit to him, because it's not what he saw on Fox News....
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1296000/1296348.stm"; target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1296000/1296348.stm</a></strong><hr></blockquote>;
Dear brainwashed AI member. That is a one sided story. We don't know who killed that kid under what circumstances. He could have been killed by his own people or caught in the cross fire or either side. The story doesn't say or even ask the question. It's bias. Bad reporting. It's a story that's not intended to report news but rather illicit sympathy for one side over the other.
And what superpower would that realistically be? There is only one left you know, and its hardly going to intervene at this moment. Not with the present leadership focused on terrorist fighting as its primary objective.. oh, I forgot, they allready intervene with several billion dollars every year in subsidies to the Israelis <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
and Scott H: your argument about one french ambasadors words being taken for antisemitism and therefore the whole french nation being antisemitic just makes me sick! :-(
First of all i don't recall his remarks being especially antisemitic as much as being anti-current-israeli-politics. Theres a difference. Second, lots of jews disagree with Ariel Sharons politics, and that doesn't make them antisemits.
But there you go again, talk the least negative about ISRAELI politics and you can be sure to find someone accusing you of being antisemitic..A sure (and stupid) way to strangle any balanced discussion.
<strong>and Scott H: your argument about one french ambasadors words being taken for antisemitism and therefore the whole french nation being antisemitic just makes me sick! :-(</strong><hr></blockquote>
Anti-semitism should make us all sick.
You do realize that the French government did nothing about it right?
------------------------------------------------------------------------
<hr></blockquote>
I guess palestinians spend their time killing their own children...
Surely I am the one being brain-washed.
<strong>
I guess palestinians spend their time killing their own children...
Surely I am the one being brain-washed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It has happened. One case was a woman who claimed her baby was killed by the "Jews". Turns out she killed her own baby and blamed it on the "jews". I bet that didn't make it on the BBC site.