The iPhone came out with a phone with an icon-based application manager interface. Blackberry had such an interface well before Apple on a cell phone and I'm sure others before them. There is nothing revolutionary about that at all, just fancier graphics in the case of Apple's implementation. Icon-based application launchers are as old as the first GUI-based operating systems (i.e. Xerox, who Apple first stole the technology from). Added to that is multi-touch, again only "revolutionary" as far as it's use in a consumer handset. Elan and Synaptics invented multi-touch and have used it in commercial applications and resold the technology to just about every technology OEM out there.
The only feature Apple could possibly have a case on is the App Store integration. Apple will make a big deal about this in the press creating FUD to disrupt the commercial success of their competitors and will then sign a licensing deal to settle the manner. This is nothing but pure anti-competitive actions by a hypocritical company that has stolen more than their fair share of technology from others.
Apple, sign a cross-licensing deal and get back to proving that you have the best technology by innovating and not by being a patent troll.
Lord, I get tired of this style of selective analysis.
We can always, and I mean always claim that a given product isn't "innovative" or "new" if we're willing to play fast and loose with categories.
By constantly changing the focus from general to specific and back, you can explain away every invention in the history of man. There will always have been antecedents, similar things, examples from other categories, etc. You end up making an argument against all patent and copywrite law.
So the iPhone is merely about an "icon based application launcher." If that doesn't work, you could point out that touch screens already existed, or phones, or hand held objects. I don't know why you even bother to exempt the App Store from this leveling impulse, since it's easy enough to claim that online app purchasing already existed, and implementing that for a handset is just a trivial variant.
Here's a little test: name something you think is a genuinely innovative new thing. Something that you think ought to be patentable. I guarantee you I can use exactly the language that gets used to dismiss Apple's work to show how that thing is, in fact, not innovative or new at all.
I've just read that Apple is actually looking for an injunction against all the named phones in their lawsuit. Which means a block on importing, marketing, advertising, demonstrating, warehousing inventory for distribution, distributing, or offering for sale.
Now if Apple wasn't "threatened" as you say, then couldn't they have just simply stopped at the lawsuit itself (essentially asking HTC to just pay)? Asking the court to literally stop all of those phones from crossing our borders and to remove all existing phones in our borders seems really excessive.
I wouldn't be surprised if Apple also asks the court to force HTC to have any and all infringing items be removed from existing HTC smartphones not mentioned in the suit via a OTA update.
It does give off the feeling that Apple is threatened... This move would not just slow smartphone competition (as it would if Apple is simply successful on the lawsuit alone), it would outright kill competition in the US market, as most of those phones are the main competitors to Apple.
No, then you don't look like you really mean it. You always ask for the harshest possible outcome in the filing to allow negotiated settlement room later.
This lawsuit is really about Android, not HTC itself. Because if HTC is found to be in conflict with Apples patents, by extension that means the Android distro they used was the source of much of that conflict. The whole Android code tree suddenly becomes potential legal poison and anyone using it becomes vulnerable due to precedent. This is a Home Run swinging case it is...
I give Apple pretty good odds too, They can look inside ALL the Android code to see specific implementation methods without having to ask anyone for permission, but the Android crowd, including HTC can't look inside OS X iPhone without a subpoena, and cant use any of that looking as a means to avoid infringement later.
I would be very surprised if Apple engineers haven't been assigned to the legal team dissecting Android for several months already and the filing is based on what they all think are slam dunk winnable issues. Because of the openness of Android, this case will be far more cut and dried than most patent cases where both sides are really just guessing until the judge lets them peek inside each others code. The kicker will be whether or not the Android devs were very careful in documenting the existing art they derived their code from. If they were Android can survive nicely, if not...
Actually, it's not. It shows a lack of knowledge of how the open source community works.
Open source programmers could care less about patents. If a legal case determines that a feature they developed is infringing, they just modify it and move on. Apple's huffing and puffing will do nothing to slow to progress of open source development. In fact it might actually back-fire as several open source licenses have provisions that will revoke the right to use "any" open source software if a user of said software brings a patent suit against another open source project. It is a M.A.D. clause to prevent heavy users of open source (such as Apple) from abusing their software patents.
Yes, but Apple isn't suing the Android project over patents, Apple is just suing another company which is shipping a product they believe is using their patents. It is an indirect shot at Android that essentially says hobbyists can use the open source project all they want and we won't interfere, but if you want to make money off our patented ideas, do it another way.
Commercially it may have a significant impact on Android as the Android team will need to address any ruled infringements before a company can ship it in a paying product again. But it isn't an attack on Android itself which would trigger poison pills.
No, then you don't look like you really mean it. You always ask for the harshest possible outcome in the filing to allow negotiated settlement room later.
This lawsuit is really about Android, not HTC itself. Because if HTC is found to be in conflict with Apples patents, by extension that means the Android distro they used was the source of much of that conflict. The whole Android code tree suddenly becomes potential legal poison and anyone using it becomes vulnerable due to precedent. This is a Home Run swinging case it is...
I give Apple pretty good odds too, They can look inside ALL the Android code to see specific implementation methods without having to ask anyone for permission, but the Android crowd, including HTC can't look inside OS X iPhone without a subpoena, and cant use any of that looking as a means to avoid infringement later.
I would be very surprised if Apple engineers haven't been assigned to the legal team dissecting Android for several months already and the filing is based on what they all think are slam dunk winnable issues. Because of the openness of Android, this case will be far more cut and dried than most patent cases where both sides are really just guessing until the judge lets them peek inside each others code. The kicker will be whether or not the Android devs were very careful in documenting the existing art they derived their code from. If they were Android can survive nicely, if not...
Another user has already pointed out the whole "ask for the harshest, settle later" mentality. Part overreaction on my part, as it'll probably never get to that point. But if it does and Apple uses it as precedence against the rest of its competition, it quickly becomes an issue of antitrust.
I don't think it'll be as cut and dry and you make it seem to be. There's no way Apple can leave Google out of this mess (as you said, it's about Android) and when Google eventually (if they haven't already lent legal support to HTC) get in on it, they will counter-sue with a battery of their own patents. Some of which I'm sure will end up being critical pillars for the iPhone. In the end, they won't be able to take out Android without taking their own iPhone out in the process and that's a lose-lose for everyone. Not to mention that MS is also sitting on the sidelines watching too. Apple has to be careful not to end up going against a Google/HTC/MS team.
When it comes to these patent-type lawsuits, it's not about "winning" for the defense, as much as it is about creating a situation where if the plantiff wins, they also lose. The main reason why the vast majority of these cases end up getting settled in some way.
Then there's the whole mess with Nokia. What if some of the patents Apple is calling out is also in dispute over there and Nokia wins on those?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiro
Apple already knew Palm was going down. Why sue when you can gloat all the way to the bank?
Actually, I think it's less about money and more about the fact that Palm bought Handspring, which holds some of the original, founding patents (if you will) for smartphone devices. There is a very deep portfolio of patents Palm can use as leverage against Apple in a heartbeat if Apple goes after them.
Another user has already pointed out the whole "ask for the harshest, settle later" mentality. Part overreaction on my part, as it'll probably never get to that point. But if it does and Apple uses it as precedence against the rest of its competition, it quickly becomes an issue of antitrust.
It can only be anti-trust if Apple is deemed to be a monopoly in the product space. By most manufactures own press Apple is still a minority player, effectively cutting anti-trust off at the knees for at least several more years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob
I don't think it'll be as cut and dry and you make it seem to be. There's no way Apple can leave Google out of this mess (as you said, it's about Android) and when Google eventually (if they haven't already lent legal support to HTC) get in on it, they will counter-sue with a battery of their own patents. Some of which I'm sure will end up being critical pillars for the iPhone. In the end, they won't be able to take out Android without taking their own iPhone out in the process and that's a lose-lose for everyone. Not to mention that MS is also sitting on the sidelines watching too. Apple has to be careful not to end up going against a Google/HTC/MS team.
I disagree. HTC needs Google to step in and support them, Apple only needs to show HTC is shipping something that violates the patent. As far as Apple and the courts would be concerned, what happens between HTC and Google happens to be HTC-Google business and outside the scope of the lawsuit. This is a good old by-proxy battle and Apple doesn't need to kill Android, just make it not as likeable as iPhone OS in the consumers eyes. A couple years delay in development and/or Android ending up with a crummy UI is far better for Apple than an outright kill. That might hasten a monopoly era where Apple would need to be more careful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob
When it comes to these patent-type lawsuits, it's not about "winning" for the defense, as much as it is about creating a situation where if the plantiff wins, they also lose. The main reason why the vast majority of these cases end up getting settled in some way.
Always true. But Apple got to look inside Android BEFORE they filed, which gives them tactical and strategic initiative in the lawsuit. That drastically reduces the chances of losing by winning.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob
Then there's the whole mess with Nokia. What if some of the patents Apple is calling out is also in dispute over there and Nokia wins on those?
Completely different patents. Nokia is suing on GSM radio work. Apple even admits they are using those patents and that they have offered to pay the fair standard rate for the patent licenses, but Nokia wants more in violation of various standards bodies rules for charging such rates. That suit will get settled down the road and Apple already knows it will pay, Apple just doesn't want to pay more than it should according to the standards organization membership guidelines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AsianBob
Actually, I think it's less about money and more about the fact that Palm bought Handspring, which holds some of the original, founding patents (if you will) for smartphone devices. There is a very deep portfolio of patents Palm can use as leverage against Apple in a heartbeat if Apple goes after them.
Stack-em up against Newton patents. That will probably end up a wash and Palm doesn't have the cash to play that kind of game anymore.
Another user has already pointed out the whole "ask for the harshest, settle later" mentality. Part overreaction on my part, as it'll probably never get to that point. But if it does and Apple uses it as precedence against the rest of its competition, it quickly becomes an issue of antitrust.
I don't think it'll be as cut and dry and you make it seem to be. There's no way Apple can leave Google out of this mess (as you said, it's about Android) and when Google eventually (if they haven't already lent legal support to HTC) get in on it, they will counter-sue with a battery of their own patents. Some of which I'm sure will end up being critical pillars for the iPhone. In the end, they won't be able to take out Android without taking their own iPhone out in the process and that's a lose-lose for everyone. Not to mention that MS is also sitting on the sidelines watching too. Apple has to be careful not to end up going against a Google/HTC/MS team.
When it comes to these patent-type lawsuits, it's not about "winning" for the defense, as much as it is about creating a situation where if the plantiff wins, they also lose. The main reason why the vast majority of these cases end up getting settled in some way.
Then there's the whole mess with Nokia. What if some of the patents Apple is calling out is also in dispute over there and Nokia wins on those?
Actually, I think it's less about money and more about the fact that Palm bought Handspring, which holds some of the original, founding patents (if you will) for smartphone devices. There is a very deep portfolio of patents Palm can use as leverage against Apple in a heartbeat if Apple goes after them.
I guess it's fun to indulge in a lot of slippery slope theorizing, but it doesn't really amount to much, does it?
I mean, what if Apple sues everybody in an effort to halt all progress of everything? What if everyone countersues Apple and they're litigated out of business? What if consumers everywhere are horrified by Apple's aggression and turn to Android en masse to demonstrate their solidarity with open source? What if Ubuntu therefore gets a huge boost, and Linux becomes the dominate desktop OS? What if Steve Jobs has gone mad with power and personally guns down Eric Schmidt?
All alarming scenarios, to be sure, but maybe would should wait and see how some of this plays out before getting to heavily into doomsday speculation.
I guess it's fun to indulge in a lot of slippery slope theorizing, but it doesn't really amount to much, does it?
I mean, what if Apple sues everybody in an effort to halt all progress of everything? What if everyone countersues Apple and they're litigated out of business? What if consumers everywhere are horrified by Apple's aggression and turn to Android en masse to demonstrate their solidarity with open source? What if Ubuntu therefore gets a huge boost, and Linux becomes the dominate desktop OS? What if Steve Jobs has gone mad with power and personally guns down Eric Schmidt?
All alarming scenarios, to be sure, but maybe would should wait and see how some of this plays out before getting to heavily into doomsday speculation.
Agree in that this is all wild speculation at this point. Like I said, part overreaction from me, but you still can't help but make these predictions.
But I'm still going to stick to the outcome where Google/HTC and Apple end up in sue/counter-sue and settle this, all without us consumers feeling a thing. Unless, of course, Steve Jobs has gone mad with power...
Agree in that this is all wild speculation at this point. Like I said, part overreaction from me, but you still can't help but make these predictions.
But I'm still going to stick to the outcome where Google/HTC and Apple end up in sue/counter-sue and settle this, all without us consumers feeling a thing. Unless, of course, Steve Jobs has gone mad with power...
Just for the record, I think Apple's suit here may be overreaching.
However, I'm tending to agree with one theory that's going around, which is that Apple is doing this, not because they're "afraid" of Android, but because Jobs is personally aggrieved. That he feels that it is an injustice that Android is enjoying some success in the market by building on the iPhone revolution (if you doubt that that's what happened, take a look at the pics of the Android prototype that was circulating, from before Google had time to digest the iPhone upheaval-- it looks like every other smart phone on the market, pre-iPhone).
Just for the record, I think Apple's suit here may be overreaching.
However, I'm tending to agree with one theory that's going around, which is that Apple is doing this, not because they're "afraid" of Android, but because Jobs is personally aggrieved. That he feels that it is an injustice that Android is enjoying some success in the market by building on the iPhone revolution (if you doubt that that's what happened, take a look at the pics of the Android prototype that was circulating, from before Google had time to digest the iPhone upheaval-- it looks like every other smart phone on the market, pre-iPhone).
Every other smartphone on the market pre-iphone? There was a lot of different formats of smartphones out there. You just have to look at HTC models and you will see which smartphone the G1 comes from
Just for the record, I think Apple's suit here may be overreaching.
However, I'm tending to agree with one theory that's going around, which is that Apple is doing this, not because they're "afraid" of Android, but because Jobs is personally aggrieved. That he feels that it is an injustice that Android is enjoying some success in the market by building on the iPhone revolution (if you doubt that that's what happened, take a look at the pics of the Android prototype that was circulating, from before Google had time to digest the iPhone upheaval-- it looks like every other smart phone on the market, pre-iPhone).
LOL. Injustice? Please. I understand that many people adore him but really...there's no harm in telling the truth. There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying it the way it should be said. Judging from his recent statements, it seems to be he's more so "indignant," "insecure," and "pissed off."
And you know what? He has a right to be. In fact, if he weren't worried about potential revenue declines in app and iPhone sales, I would say he's a complete idiot. Let's look at the recent numbers.
Like it or not, especially in this recession, the market for smartphones and software apps is a zero sum game. Apple in this lawsuit is simply doing what any corporation would do, which is preserve its share value. Nothing more.
Whether or not other Android phones look similar has absolutely no bearing on this case. If it did, car companies would have the right to patent exterior styling designs and cues and sue each other even though style "borrowing" takes place on a massive scale.
Injustice? Oh, my. I didn't realize that the vocabulary often utilized by liberal arts professors was relevant to a proxy war between two software giants!
Agree in that this is all wild speculation at this point. Like I said, part overreaction from me, but you still can't help but make these predictions.
But I'm still going to stick to the outcome where Google/HTC and Apple end up in sue/counter-sue and settle this, all without us consumers feeling a thing. Unless, of course, Steve Jobs has gone mad with power...
For better or worse, this lawsuit could drag on on for years. It all boils down to:
1. International Trade Commission ruling. They don't render punitive damages or monetary redress. From what's been said in the news, it's either injunction or no injunction against all HTC phones that violate the patents.
2. Whether Apple in a more than 50-50 chance of prevailing in this lawsuit agrees to let HTC sell its phones under a cross-licensing agreement.
I think its bad publicity for apple and good for HTC. The lawsuit, in consumers eyes, puts HTC on the same level with apple, which is great for HTC: "If apple is suing HTC then HTC must be making something as good as an iPhone"
But the idea that Palm could out-duel Apple in a patent war is juvenile, as are 90% of the commentary out there regarding patent validity and who is right or wrong. You don't think Apple doesn't have patents that'll counter Palm's patents? Really? You think Google would survive unscathed? You do as you said it, but it's highly doubtful. It's going to be a mess.
That's my point. If Apple's playing big, it's feasible that a response will be a big play by Google (like buying and using Palm) or maybe even somebody else getting into the fray (say Microsoft or Motorola or some consortium of manufacturers). Like I said, if you were google why would you not buy Palm to use as cannon fodder to dent Apple? Of course Apple has patents that could dent Palm, but would Google really care how much damage is done to Palm? Or would they care about how much Palm's IP could do to Apple?
It's a fantastical scenario. But once you start getting into patent shooting war, anything's possible....and companies like Palm, with lots of IP, suddenly become very, very valuable.
Every other smartphone on the market pre-iphone? There was a lot of different formats of smartphones out there. You just have to look at HTC models and you will see which smartphone the G1 comes from
Which ones? Because it appears to me that every HTC smartphone prior to the iPhone were variants on the keypad and small screen format.
It does give off the feeling that Apple is threatened...
Whether Apple is "threatened" or not is irrelevant. Apple is contending they are profiting by stealing their intellectual property. Why should they be allowed to do that while they are in litigation? If Apple can make a strong enough case for the injunction and the can get it, why shouldn't they?
It's business! I love how stuff like this get's romanticized into emotional arguments about "threatened" but really it's just Apple protecting interests they believe they are entitled to. It's up to the court to either agree or not.
Comments
The iPhone came out with a phone with an icon-based application manager interface. Blackberry had such an interface well before Apple on a cell phone and I'm sure others before them. There is nothing revolutionary about that at all, just fancier graphics in the case of Apple's implementation. Icon-based application launchers are as old as the first GUI-based operating systems (i.e. Xerox, who Apple first stole the technology from). Added to that is multi-touch, again only "revolutionary" as far as it's use in a consumer handset. Elan and Synaptics invented multi-touch and have used it in commercial applications and resold the technology to just about every technology OEM out there.
The only feature Apple could possibly have a case on is the App Store integration. Apple will make a big deal about this in the press creating FUD to disrupt the commercial success of their competitors and will then sign a licensing deal to settle the manner. This is nothing but pure anti-competitive actions by a hypocritical company that has stolen more than their fair share of technology from others.
Apple, sign a cross-licensing deal and get back to proving that you have the best technology by innovating and not by being a patent troll.
Lord, I get tired of this style of selective analysis.
We can always, and I mean always claim that a given product isn't "innovative" or "new" if we're willing to play fast and loose with categories.
By constantly changing the focus from general to specific and back, you can explain away every invention in the history of man. There will always have been antecedents, similar things, examples from other categories, etc. You end up making an argument against all patent and copywrite law.
So the iPhone is merely about an "icon based application launcher." If that doesn't work, you could point out that touch screens already existed, or phones, or hand held objects. I don't know why you even bother to exempt the App Store from this leveling impulse, since it's easy enough to claim that online app purchasing already existed, and implementing that for a handset is just a trivial variant.
Here's a little test: name something you think is a genuinely innovative new thing. Something that you think ought to be patentable. I guarantee you I can use exactly the language that gets used to dismiss Apple's work to show how that thing is, in fact, not innovative or new at all.
I've just read that Apple is actually looking for an injunction against all the named phones in their lawsuit. Which means a block on importing, marketing, advertising, demonstrating, warehousing inventory for distribution, distributing, or offering for sale.
Now if Apple wasn't "threatened" as you say, then couldn't they have just simply stopped at the lawsuit itself (essentially asking HTC to just pay)? Asking the court to literally stop all of those phones from crossing our borders and to remove all existing phones in our borders seems really excessive.
I wouldn't be surprised if Apple also asks the court to force HTC to have any and all infringing items be removed from existing HTC smartphones not mentioned in the suit via a OTA update.
It does give off the feeling that Apple is threatened... This move would not just slow smartphone competition (as it would if Apple is simply successful on the lawsuit alone), it would outright kill competition in the US market, as most of those phones are the main competitors to Apple.
No, then you don't look like you really mean it. You always ask for the harshest possible outcome in the filing to allow negotiated settlement room later.
This lawsuit is really about Android, not HTC itself. Because if HTC is found to be in conflict with Apples patents, by extension that means the Android distro they used was the source of much of that conflict. The whole Android code tree suddenly becomes potential legal poison and anyone using it becomes vulnerable due to precedent. This is a Home Run swinging case it is...
I give Apple pretty good odds too, They can look inside ALL the Android code to see specific implementation methods without having to ask anyone for permission, but the Android crowd, including HTC can't look inside OS X iPhone without a subpoena, and cant use any of that looking as a means to avoid infringement later.
I would be very surprised if Apple engineers haven't been assigned to the legal team dissecting Android for several months already and the filing is based on what they all think are slam dunk winnable issues. Because of the openness of Android, this case will be far more cut and dried than most patent cases where both sides are really just guessing until the judge lets them peek inside each others code. The kicker will be whether or not the Android devs were very careful in documenting the existing art they derived their code from. If they were Android can survive nicely, if not...
Actually, it's not. It shows a lack of knowledge of how the open source community works.
Open source programmers could care less about patents. If a legal case determines that a feature they developed is infringing, they just modify it and move on. Apple's huffing and puffing will do nothing to slow to progress of open source development. In fact it might actually back-fire as several open source licenses have provisions that will revoke the right to use "any" open source software if a user of said software brings a patent suit against another open source project. It is a M.A.D. clause to prevent heavy users of open source (such as Apple) from abusing their software patents.
Yes, but Apple isn't suing the Android project over patents, Apple is just suing another company which is shipping a product they believe is using their patents. It is an indirect shot at Android that essentially says hobbyists can use the open source project all they want and we won't interfere, but if you want to make money off our patented ideas, do it another way.
Commercially it may have a significant impact on Android as the Android team will need to address any ruled infringements before a company can ship it in a paying product again. But it isn't an attack on Android itself which would trigger poison pills.
Sue H.T.C. but not sue Palm?
Apple already knew Palm was going down. Why sue when you can gloat all the way to the bank?
No, then you don't look like you really mean it. You always ask for the harshest possible outcome in the filing to allow negotiated settlement room later.
This lawsuit is really about Android, not HTC itself. Because if HTC is found to be in conflict with Apples patents, by extension that means the Android distro they used was the source of much of that conflict. The whole Android code tree suddenly becomes potential legal poison and anyone using it becomes vulnerable due to precedent. This is a Home Run swinging case it is...
I give Apple pretty good odds too, They can look inside ALL the Android code to see specific implementation methods without having to ask anyone for permission, but the Android crowd, including HTC can't look inside OS X iPhone without a subpoena, and cant use any of that looking as a means to avoid infringement later.
I would be very surprised if Apple engineers haven't been assigned to the legal team dissecting Android for several months already and the filing is based on what they all think are slam dunk winnable issues. Because of the openness of Android, this case will be far more cut and dried than most patent cases where both sides are really just guessing until the judge lets them peek inside each others code. The kicker will be whether or not the Android devs were very careful in documenting the existing art they derived their code from. If they were Android can survive nicely, if not...
Another user has already pointed out the whole "ask for the harshest, settle later" mentality. Part overreaction on my part, as it'll probably never get to that point. But if it does and Apple uses it as precedence against the rest of its competition, it quickly becomes an issue of antitrust.
I don't think it'll be as cut and dry and you make it seem to be. There's no way Apple can leave Google out of this mess (as you said, it's about Android) and when Google eventually (if they haven't already lent legal support to HTC) get in on it, they will counter-sue with a battery of their own patents. Some of which I'm sure will end up being critical pillars for the iPhone. In the end, they won't be able to take out Android without taking their own iPhone out in the process and that's a lose-lose for everyone. Not to mention that MS is also sitting on the sidelines watching too. Apple has to be careful not to end up going against a Google/HTC/MS team.
When it comes to these patent-type lawsuits, it's not about "winning" for the defense, as much as it is about creating a situation where if the plantiff wins, they also lose. The main reason why the vast majority of these cases end up getting settled in some way.
Then there's the whole mess with Nokia. What if some of the patents Apple is calling out is also in dispute over there and Nokia wins on those?
Apple already knew Palm was going down. Why sue when you can gloat all the way to the bank?
Actually, I think it's less about money and more about the fact that Palm bought Handspring, which holds some of the original, founding patents (if you will) for smartphone devices. There is a very deep portfolio of patents Palm can use as leverage against Apple in a heartbeat if Apple goes after them.
Another user has already pointed out the whole "ask for the harshest, settle later" mentality. Part overreaction on my part, as it'll probably never get to that point. But if it does and Apple uses it as precedence against the rest of its competition, it quickly becomes an issue of antitrust.
It can only be anti-trust if Apple is deemed to be a monopoly in the product space. By most manufactures own press Apple is still a minority player, effectively cutting anti-trust off at the knees for at least several more years.
I don't think it'll be as cut and dry and you make it seem to be. There's no way Apple can leave Google out of this mess (as you said, it's about Android) and when Google eventually (if they haven't already lent legal support to HTC) get in on it, they will counter-sue with a battery of their own patents. Some of which I'm sure will end up being critical pillars for the iPhone. In the end, they won't be able to take out Android without taking their own iPhone out in the process and that's a lose-lose for everyone. Not to mention that MS is also sitting on the sidelines watching too. Apple has to be careful not to end up going against a Google/HTC/MS team.
I disagree. HTC needs Google to step in and support them, Apple only needs to show HTC is shipping something that violates the patent. As far as Apple and the courts would be concerned, what happens between HTC and Google happens to be HTC-Google business and outside the scope of the lawsuit. This is a good old by-proxy battle and Apple doesn't need to kill Android, just make it not as likeable as iPhone OS in the consumers eyes. A couple years delay in development and/or Android ending up with a crummy UI is far better for Apple than an outright kill. That might hasten a monopoly era where Apple would need to be more careful.
When it comes to these patent-type lawsuits, it's not about "winning" for the defense, as much as it is about creating a situation where if the plantiff wins, they also lose. The main reason why the vast majority of these cases end up getting settled in some way.
Always true. But Apple got to look inside Android BEFORE they filed, which gives them tactical and strategic initiative in the lawsuit. That drastically reduces the chances of losing by winning.
Then there's the whole mess with Nokia. What if some of the patents Apple is calling out is also in dispute over there and Nokia wins on those?
Completely different patents. Nokia is suing on GSM radio work. Apple even admits they are using those patents and that they have offered to pay the fair standard rate for the patent licenses, but Nokia wants more in violation of various standards bodies rules for charging such rates. That suit will get settled down the road and Apple already knows it will pay, Apple just doesn't want to pay more than it should according to the standards organization membership guidelines.
Actually, I think it's less about money and more about the fact that Palm bought Handspring, which holds some of the original, founding patents (if you will) for smartphone devices. There is a very deep portfolio of patents Palm can use as leverage against Apple in a heartbeat if Apple goes after them.
Stack-em up against Newton patents. That will probably end up a wash and Palm doesn't have the cash to play that kind of game anymore.
Another user has already pointed out the whole "ask for the harshest, settle later" mentality. Part overreaction on my part, as it'll probably never get to that point. But if it does and Apple uses it as precedence against the rest of its competition, it quickly becomes an issue of antitrust.
I don't think it'll be as cut and dry and you make it seem to be. There's no way Apple can leave Google out of this mess (as you said, it's about Android) and when Google eventually (if they haven't already lent legal support to HTC) get in on it, they will counter-sue with a battery of their own patents. Some of which I'm sure will end up being critical pillars for the iPhone. In the end, they won't be able to take out Android without taking their own iPhone out in the process and that's a lose-lose for everyone. Not to mention that MS is also sitting on the sidelines watching too. Apple has to be careful not to end up going against a Google/HTC/MS team.
When it comes to these patent-type lawsuits, it's not about "winning" for the defense, as much as it is about creating a situation where if the plantiff wins, they also lose. The main reason why the vast majority of these cases end up getting settled in some way.
Then there's the whole mess with Nokia. What if some of the patents Apple is calling out is also in dispute over there and Nokia wins on those?
Actually, I think it's less about money and more about the fact that Palm bought Handspring, which holds some of the original, founding patents (if you will) for smartphone devices. There is a very deep portfolio of patents Palm can use as leverage against Apple in a heartbeat if Apple goes after them.
I guess it's fun to indulge in a lot of slippery slope theorizing, but it doesn't really amount to much, does it?
I mean, what if Apple sues everybody in an effort to halt all progress of everything? What if everyone countersues Apple and they're litigated out of business? What if consumers everywhere are horrified by Apple's aggression and turn to Android en masse to demonstrate their solidarity with open source? What if Ubuntu therefore gets a huge boost, and Linux becomes the dominate desktop OS? What if Steve Jobs has gone mad with power and personally guns down Eric Schmidt?
All alarming scenarios, to be sure, but maybe would should wait and see how some of this plays out before getting to heavily into doomsday speculation.
I guess it's fun to indulge in a lot of slippery slope theorizing, but it doesn't really amount to much, does it?
I mean, what if Apple sues everybody in an effort to halt all progress of everything? What if everyone countersues Apple and they're litigated out of business? What if consumers everywhere are horrified by Apple's aggression and turn to Android en masse to demonstrate their solidarity with open source? What if Ubuntu therefore gets a huge boost, and Linux becomes the dominate desktop OS? What if Steve Jobs has gone mad with power and personally guns down Eric Schmidt?
All alarming scenarios, to be sure, but maybe would should wait and see how some of this plays out before getting to heavily into doomsday speculation.
Agree in that this is all wild speculation at this point. Like I said, part overreaction from me, but you still can't help but make these predictions.
But I'm still going to stick to the outcome where Google/HTC and Apple end up in sue/counter-sue and settle this, all without us consumers feeling a thing. Unless, of course, Steve Jobs has gone mad with power...
Agree in that this is all wild speculation at this point. Like I said, part overreaction from me, but you still can't help but make these predictions.
But I'm still going to stick to the outcome where Google/HTC and Apple end up in sue/counter-sue and settle this, all without us consumers feeling a thing. Unless, of course, Steve Jobs has gone mad with power...
Just for the record, I think Apple's suit here may be overreaching.
However, I'm tending to agree with one theory that's going around, which is that Apple is doing this, not because they're "afraid" of Android, but because Jobs is personally aggrieved. That he feels that it is an injustice that Android is enjoying some success in the market by building on the iPhone revolution (if you doubt that that's what happened, take a look at the pics of the Android prototype that was circulating, from before Google had time to digest the iPhone upheaval-- it looks like every other smart phone on the market, pre-iPhone).
Just for the record, I think Apple's suit here may be overreaching.
However, I'm tending to agree with one theory that's going around, which is that Apple is doing this, not because they're "afraid" of Android, but because Jobs is personally aggrieved. That he feels that it is an injustice that Android is enjoying some success in the market by building on the iPhone revolution (if you doubt that that's what happened, take a look at the pics of the Android prototype that was circulating, from before Google had time to digest the iPhone upheaval-- it looks like every other smart phone on the market, pre-iPhone).
Every other smartphone on the market pre-iphone? There was a lot of different formats of smartphones out there. You just have to look at HTC models and you will see which smartphone the G1 comes from
Just for the record, I think Apple's suit here may be overreaching.
However, I'm tending to agree with one theory that's going around, which is that Apple is doing this, not because they're "afraid" of Android, but because Jobs is personally aggrieved. That he feels that it is an injustice that Android is enjoying some success in the market by building on the iPhone revolution (if you doubt that that's what happened, take a look at the pics of the Android prototype that was circulating, from before Google had time to digest the iPhone upheaval-- it looks like every other smart phone on the market, pre-iPhone).
LOL. Injustice? Please. I understand that many people adore him but really...there's no harm in telling the truth. There's absolutely nothing wrong with saying it the way it should be said. Judging from his recent statements, it seems to be he's more so "indignant," "insecure," and "pissed off."
And you know what? He has a right to be. In fact, if he weren't worried about potential revenue declines in app and iPhone sales, I would say he's a complete idiot. Let's look at the recent numbers.
Article 1
Article 2
Like it or not, especially in this recession, the market for smartphones and software apps is a zero sum game. Apple in this lawsuit is simply doing what any corporation would do, which is preserve its share value. Nothing more.
Whether or not other Android phones look similar has absolutely no bearing on this case. If it did, car companies would have the right to patent exterior styling designs and cues and sue each other even though style "borrowing" takes place on a massive scale.
Injustice? Oh, my. I didn't realize that the vocabulary often utilized by liberal arts professors was relevant to a proxy war between two software giants!
Agree in that this is all wild speculation at this point. Like I said, part overreaction from me, but you still can't help but make these predictions.
But I'm still going to stick to the outcome where Google/HTC and Apple end up in sue/counter-sue and settle this, all without us consumers feeling a thing. Unless, of course, Steve Jobs has gone mad with power...
For better or worse, this lawsuit could drag on on for years. It all boils down to:
1. International Trade Commission ruling. They don't render punitive damages or monetary redress. From what's been said in the news, it's either injunction or no injunction against all HTC phones that violate the patents.
2. Whether Apple in a more than 50-50 chance of prevailing in this lawsuit agrees to let HTC sell its phones under a cross-licensing agreement.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/a...tc-investigat/
Trial has been put on hold until ITC investigation finishes. 15 months moreless?
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/04/a...tc-investigat/
That's for Apple vs. Nokia.
That's for Apple vs. Nokia.
Yes, thanks, I missed to write which trial I was refering. I was wondering if the Apple/HTC would be the same
Just my opinion...
But the idea that Palm could out-duel Apple in a patent war is juvenile, as are 90% of the commentary out there regarding patent validity and who is right or wrong. You don't think Apple doesn't have patents that'll counter Palm's patents? Really? You think Google would survive unscathed? You do as you said it, but it's highly doubtful. It's going to be a mess.
That's my point. If Apple's playing big, it's feasible that a response will be a big play by Google (like buying and using Palm) or maybe even somebody else getting into the fray (say Microsoft or Motorola or some consortium of manufacturers). Like I said, if you were google why would you not buy Palm to use as cannon fodder to dent Apple? Of course Apple has patents that could dent Palm, but would Google really care how much damage is done to Palm? Or would they care about how much Palm's IP could do to Apple?
It's a fantastical scenario. But once you start getting into patent shooting war, anything's possible....and companies like Palm, with lots of IP, suddenly become very, very valuable.
Is Microsoft or Google paying Eran? Because I don't know no one which can make so bad publicity for Apple that him.
I got the impression long ago that he was being paid by the word.
Every other smartphone on the market pre-iphone? There was a lot of different formats of smartphones out there. You just have to look at HTC models and you will see which smartphone the G1 comes from
Which ones? Because it appears to me that every HTC smartphone prior to the iPhone were variants on the keypad and small screen format.
It does give off the feeling that Apple is threatened...
Whether Apple is "threatened" or not is irrelevant. Apple is contending they are profiting by stealing their intellectual property. Why should they be allowed to do that while they are in litigation? If Apple can make a strong enough case for the injunction and the can get it, why shouldn't they?
It's business! I love how stuff like this get's romanticized into emotional arguments about "threatened" but really it's just Apple protecting interests they believe they are entitled to. It's up to the court to either agree or not.