FACT: iPad can display 16:9 720p H.264 content at 1024x576 natively. This is not HD.
When NHK first developed the HD spec there were two key criteria:
The display resolution has sufficient pixel density that a person with 20/20 vision would no longer see pixel structure. This is 60 pixels per degree (PPD) based on human visual acuity.
The display size was sufficiently large to provide the same immersive effects of cinema. This was determined to be 30 degrees of horizontal viewing angle (HVA). This is known as the induction effect. [1]
FACT: To get 30 degrees HVA at 60 PPD for the "true" HD effect you need a minimum of 1080p resolution.
This is roughly equivalent to sitting in the furthest seat in a movie theater that meets SMPTE or THX specs. More is better unless you like sitting way in back but no mainstream home theater product does this.
720p is part of the HD spec, is considered HD but doesn't actually meet the original objectives of replicating the high def theater experience in the home (aka "home theater").
Opinion: What this means on a practical level is any display that isn't at least 1080p is simply some level of compromise to the minimal requirements for high def viewing.
Analysis: iPad and meeting the high def movie experience
Assuming 1024 horizontal and a 1 ft viewing distance it comes out to:
23.97 pixels per degree for 2.39:1 movies
25.13 pixels per degree for 1.85:1 movies
25.37 pixels per degree for 1.78:1 (16:9) movies.
To get 60 PPD (aka full HD) density you need to sit 2.37 feet away (16:9)
To get the 30 degrees HVA you need to sit no more than 1.31 feet away.
Like all other displays that does not meet the 1080p resolution the iPad cannot meet both 60 PPD and 30 degrees HVA. This includes 720p HDTVs and any other 720p class slate.
PROBABLE FACT: There are no currently produced or announced 10" slates that can natively reproduce "real" HD at 60 PPD and 30 degrees HVA.
I say probable because while I'm not even sure anyone mass produces a 10" panel that is 1920x1080 res or higher and I would have remembered anyone spec'ing a natively 1080p slate at CES this year (there are some that output 1080p but not natively show it) I'm not 100% certain.
If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me but at best I'm saying no 10" slate does better than slightly higher than 720p at 1366x768. And those are probably 11.1" panels.
Factoid: Most folks sit about 8+ feet from a 50" 1080p TV which results in a 14.55 degree HVA at 73 PPD.
I would list this as a fact except I can't find the damn study again to list as a reference. This article says 10' but there was an Italian study by one of their major national TV stations that stated around 8'. It'll vary by country (and the average home size in that country) but 8' is what I recall to be on the lower end of the spectrum.
Anything above 60 PPD you can't generally see unless your vision is above 20/20. This is NOT HD because you're sitting too far away to get the induction effect. Most folks with HDTVs are missing out on the real home theater experience.
Remember that to get 60 PPD you need to be 2.37 feet from the iPad. The HVA at that distance is 16.91 degrees at 60 PPD. 16.91 is bigger than 14.55.
CONCLUSION: At the optimal 2.37 foot viewing distance for the iPad it appears larger than a 50" 1080p HDTV at the normal 8+ foot TV viewing distance and has the same usable resolution for people with 20/20 vision.
There is some debate on whether 60PPD is a sufficient minimum for 20/20 vision but that's the current spec.
Those are the facts, probable facts and the analysis based on that data. For all intents and purposes the iPad is what most folks consider to be a HD experience. That most folks aren't really getting a HD experience is something only videophiles bicker (or snicker) about.
From the latest news I saw, forget about a TV package with a monthly fee. The networks will TRY 99 cents for some shows. Dont expect to get all shows at 99 cents.
Yep... the fools just don't want to see the reality of the situation... their content just isn't as valuable as it was in decades gone by... Also, when I say 'valuable' I don't mean in the QUALITY (cough) of the programming but the number of EYEBALLS that are desiring to see it (live - AD revenue) and/or on DVD/BluRay/Digital Delivery (practically pure profits).
One if not two generations are growing up in a world where 'the boob-tube' does NOT dominate their free time... and 'free time' isn't as great either... kids in the last few decades have had far more things to fill up their time then I did when I was growing up... 'Play dates' and 'trips abroad' (older kids obviously) were simply not head of and I lived in a very affluent town growing up. We would 'tear it up @ Sea Side Heights or LBI - hoping to hell we survived the week without getting arrested or involved in a drunken brawl ending at the emergency room' (good times! ) after graduation now, the kids go to Paris or Italy and not just the 'super rich ones'.. TV is taking a back seat for the first time in the history of this country and the networks don't know WTF to do.
And if they think OVERCHARGING for the product is the way to go... they are sorely mistaken. People will simply move on to something else... There's lots of things that are calling out for our entertainment dollars and while buying old TV shows might be one way to go... there are LOADS of other ways to go and many are far more fulfilling.
Quote:
Originally Posted by herbapou
Hulu is coming in with an Ipad app that will required a subscription fee. Amazon is also coming in with a Kindle bookstore app for the Ipad. It will be interesting to see if Apple is going to allow this in the app store... if not expect one hell of a anti-Apple media coveraged. Netflix could also easily develop an Ipad app if they want...
I am waiting to see Apple reaction on apps that are competing with Itune before I buy an Ipad.
As for the apps... I've been involved with really long and silly arguments over this so I'll do my best to lay out what is likely to happen without raising the ire of other individuals who would come to the defense of the App Store...
- Apple will allow ANY app provided it does the following:
1. Conform to the terms and conditions set out in the developer guidelines.
2. NOT utilize ANY undocumented functions no matter how well known they are or how harmless they seem.
3. NOT allow ANY form of in APP purchasing**
4. NOT violate any laws (copyright or otherwise) and/or be potentially offensive (porn).
** In APP purchasing.. this is a sticky issue.. a programmer that wishes to send purchase information (an order) to a web site via SSL is prohibited from doing so no matter how secure the transaction is. However a programmer CAN provide in APP purchasing PROVIDED they use APPLE as the order/payment service AND don't mind paying APPLE a 30% fee from each transaction. So if a vendor is selling an item that they might make... 15% on the sale and APPLE demands 30% ... then as you can see the company that developed the program would actually be LOSING 15% on each and every sale (they would go broke).
Of course they COULD just RAISE the price of each item they sold via the APP by 30% but THEN who on earth would buy from them when the same product can be purchased by Apple for 30% less. As you can see its a no win scenario.
Yes please. I think about $1 is the sweet spot for me. Currently it's cheaper just to wait for DVD to come out but by then it's usually to late to care about watching it. I don't watch much TV anyway but that's mostly because I can't stand crime/murder dramas.
It's the typical amount most people in the US watch after they come home from work, it's a lot more on the weekends of course, the kids watching cartoons etc. all morning.
Perhaps in other countries the quality and quantity of shows isn't all that great, which leads people to do other things or perhaps they have to work more when they get home because people don't have things like like wash machines, dishwashers, robovac's etc.
Well, that's America's obesity problem explained!
The rest of us are not so vacuous as to get all our 'entertainment' from the television.
This isn't about the money, it's all about control. The networks give away their shows now - but they fear the Apple hegemony will turn them from drivers into passengers in the shift to IP based delivery.
An "all you can eat" might work if the price was right but that's not happening. The way I see it is there ate note and netbooks that will play the movie free with only 5 15-:30
commercials and if someone comes out with a flash slate or even if ylthe courier does half of what it's said to do, ther could be problems. Time will tell
I see the ipad getting eaten up by many but the courier couldntake the enterprise
and students vs casual
user intact I know some that are selling their MBP, getting an
ipad and iMac, so this could, to some extent, hurt laptop
sales, especially if a lot of people do that. Thinking about doing that too with 4 cores.
I remember as a child in Boston, we had cable but :40 minutes away in Wells Beach Maine or Sanford Maine, it was a whole different wworld that I will cherish forever. One example is my Aunt had a 300 acre farm and her phone would double ring like in England and that meant it was her neighbor and you could listen or anwser, one ring was for her.
I pray to The Great Lord above, I can buy that property one day or inherit some acres and move there.
The Internet changed everything. It brought the world together no more outsiders.
Amen!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveGee
Yep... the fools just don't want to see the reality of the situation... their content just isn't as valuable as it was in decades gone by... Also, when I say 'valuable' I don't mean in the QUALITY (cough) of the programming but the number of EYEBALLS that are desiring to see it (live - AD revenue) and/or on DVD/BluRay/Digital Delivery (practically pure profits).
One if not two generations are growing up in a world where 'the boob-tube' does NOT dominate their free time... and 'free time' isn't as great either... kids in the last few decades have had far more things to fill up their time then I did when I was growing up... 'Play dates' and 'trips abroad' (older kids obviously) were simply not head of and I lived in a very affluent town growing up. We would 'tear it up @ Sea Side Heights or LBI - hoping to hell we survived the week without getting arrested or involved in a drunken brawl ending at the emergency room' (good times! ) after graduation now, the kids go to Paris or Italy and not just the 'super rich ones'.. TV is taking a back seat for the first time in the history of this country and the networks don't know WTF to do.
And if they think OVERCHARGING for the product is the way to go... they are sorely mistaken. People will simply move on to something else... There's lots of things that are calling out for our entertainment dollars and while buying old TV shows might be one way to go... there are LOADS of other ways to go and many are far more fulfilling.
As for the apps... I've been involved with really long and silly arguments over this so I'll do my best to lay out what is likely to happen without raising the ire of other individuals who would come to the defense of the App Store...
- Apple will allow ANY app provided it does the following:
1. Conform to the terms and conditions set out in the developer guidelines.
2. NOT utilize ANY undocumented functions no matter how well known they are or how harmless they seem.
3. NOT allow ANY form of in APP purchasing**
4. NOT violate any laws (copyright or otherwise) and/or be potentially offensive (porn).
** In APP purchasing.. this is a sticky issue.. a programmer that wishes to send purchase information (an order) to a web site via SSL is prohibited from doing so no matter how secure the transaction is. However a programmer CAN provide in APP purchasing PROVIDED they use APPLE as the order/payment service AND don't mind paying APPLE a 30% fee from each transaction. So if a vendor is selling an item that they might make... 15% on the sale and APPLE demands 30% ... then as you can see the company that developed the program would actually be LOSING 15% on each and every sale (they would go broke).
Of course they COULD just RAISE the price of each item they sold via the APP by 30% but THEN who on earth would buy from them when the same product can be purchased by Apple for 30% less. As you can see its a no win scenario.
You're much too focused on PPD and resolution. The size of image is much more important, which is why most people, despite 52" or larger screens, still don't have true "home theater."
And resolution define what usable size you have. Unless you feel that SD on a 100" screen at 10 feet is acceptable as Home Theater. Trust me, it isn't but then I DO have a 100" 1080p screen to be able actually see.
A 52" 1080p HDTV can provide an immersive theater experience...if you sit at the right distance.
And gee...I did write that most folks don't have true home theater. What's your beef with that?
Quote:
Sorry, but even if the iPad had full 1080p resolution, I wouldn't consider holding it at arms length (as you suggested) or even a foot away as an immersive, theater-like experience.
If the iPad had full 1080p resolution you could place it so it is exactly the same size as a 52" HDTV with the same resolution.
Out of curiosity where are you going to hold the iPad if not at around arms length or closer? Are your arms 10' long or something?
Quote:
It's interesting how people constantly complained that netbooks with their 10" screens were too small to really enjoy movies on (despite the fact that they actually have 16:9 widescreen aspect ratios) and now they are completely accepting of the iPad for the same purpose.
I have never complained that netbooks are too small given I watch movies on my iPhone while traveling. They sure as heck are bigger than many IFE screens on airplanes.
Quote:
I doubt very much that an HD movie on an iPad will look significantly better than even an SD movie on my Wind (which nevertheless plays back 720p just fine, if downsized). The Wind, like any 10" netbook, has exactly the same horizontal resolution as well as LED backlighting just like the iPad and because of the screen proportions, actually provides a physically wider image than the iPad does. Because it's the same horizontal resolution, logically, a 720p movie will display with the same vertical resolution, but the 576-pixel high image will almost perfectly fit the 600-pixel high screen.
Other than the IPS screen there should be no real difference. I dunno what your point is unless you simply want to move the goal posts.
My point is that no 10" screen provides HD and the iPad (as well as any other 10" screen) looks pretty much as good as HDTV given the way most people use theirs.
Comments
Hmm...this topic again.
FACT: iPad can display 16:9 720p H.264 content at 1024x576 natively. This is not HD.
When NHK first developed the HD spec there were two key criteria:
- The display resolution has sufficient pixel density that a person with 20/20 vision would no longer see pixel structure. This is 60 pixels per degree (PPD) based on human visual acuity.
- The display size was sufficiently large to provide the same immersive effects of cinema. This was determined to be 30 degrees of horizontal viewing angle (HVA). This is known as the induction effect. [1]
FACT: To get 30 degrees HVA at 60 PPD for the "true" HD effect you need a minimum of 1080p resolution.This is roughly equivalent to sitting in the furthest seat in a movie theater that meets SMPTE or THX specs. More is better unless you like sitting way in back but no mainstream home theater product does this.
720p is part of the HD spec, is considered HD but doesn't actually meet the original objectives of replicating the high def theater experience in the home (aka "home theater").
Opinion: What this means on a practical level is any display that isn't at least 1080p is simply some level of compromise to the minimal requirements for high def viewing.
Analysis: iPad and meeting the high def movie experience
Assuming 1024 horizontal and a 1 ft viewing distance it comes out to:
23.97 pixels per degree for 2.39:1 movies
25.13 pixels per degree for 1.85:1 movies
25.37 pixels per degree for 1.78:1 (16:9) movies.
To get 60 PPD (aka full HD) density you need to sit 2.37 feet away (16:9)
To get the 30 degrees HVA you need to sit no more than 1.31 feet away.
Like all other displays that does not meet the 1080p resolution the iPad cannot meet both 60 PPD and 30 degrees HVA. This includes 720p HDTVs and any other 720p class slate.
PROBABLE FACT: There are no currently produced or announced 10" slates that can natively reproduce "real" HD at 60 PPD and 30 degrees HVA.
I say probable because while I'm not even sure anyone mass produces a 10" panel that is 1920x1080 res or higher and I would have remembered anyone spec'ing a natively 1080p slate at CES this year (there are some that output 1080p but not natively show it) I'm not 100% certain.
If I'm wrong I'm sure someone will correct me but at best I'm saying no 10" slate does better than slightly higher than 720p at 1366x768. And those are probably 11.1" panels.
Factoid: Most folks sit about 8+ feet from a 50" 1080p TV which results in a 14.55 degree HVA at 73 PPD.
I would list this as a fact except I can't find the damn study again to list as a reference. This article says 10' but there was an Italian study by one of their major national TV stations that stated around 8'. It'll vary by country (and the average home size in that country) but 8' is what I recall to be on the lower end of the spectrum.
http://www.hometheatermag.com/gearwo...rez/index.html
Anything above 60 PPD you can't generally see unless your vision is above 20/20. This is NOT HD because you're sitting too far away to get the induction effect. Most folks with HDTVs are missing out on the real home theater experience.
Remember that to get 60 PPD you need to be 2.37 feet from the iPad. The HVA at that distance is 16.91 degrees at 60 PPD. 16.91 is bigger than 14.55.
CONCLUSION: At the optimal 2.37 foot viewing distance for the iPad it appears larger than a 50" 1080p HDTV at the normal 8+ foot TV viewing distance and has the same usable resolution for people with 20/20 vision.
There is some debate on whether 60PPD is a sufficient minimum for 20/20 vision but that's the current spec.
Those are the facts, probable facts and the analysis based on that data. For all intents and purposes the iPad is what most folks consider to be a HD experience. That most folks aren't really getting a HD experience is something only videophiles bicker (or snicker) about.
Now I just hope I got all my math right at 3AM.
[1] Psychophysical Analsys of the "Sensation of Reality" Induced by a Visual Wide-Field Display by T. Hatada, H. Sakata and H. Kusaka, SMPTE Journal, Volume 89, pages 560-569, August 1980 retrieved 20 MAR 2010
Arguing about HD on a 10 inch screen device (with no HDMI out to top it off) is simply retarded... imo you should move that argument to the AppleTV
From the latest news I saw, forget about a TV package with a monthly fee. The networks will TRY 99 cents for some shows. Dont expect to get all shows at 99 cents.
Yep... the fools just don't want to see the reality of the situation... their content just isn't as valuable as it was in decades gone by... Also, when I say 'valuable' I don't mean in the QUALITY (cough) of the programming but the number of EYEBALLS that are desiring to see it (live - AD revenue) and/or on DVD/BluRay/Digital Delivery (practically pure profits).
One if not two generations are growing up in a world where 'the boob-tube' does NOT dominate their free time... and 'free time' isn't as great either... kids in the last few decades have had far more things to fill up their time then I did when I was growing up... 'Play dates' and 'trips abroad' (older kids obviously) were simply not head of and I lived in a very affluent town growing up. We would 'tear it up @ Sea Side Heights or LBI - hoping to hell we survived the week without getting arrested or involved in a drunken brawl ending at the emergency room' (good times!
And if they think OVERCHARGING for the product is the way to go... they are sorely mistaken. People will simply move on to something else... There's lots of things that are calling out for our entertainment dollars and while buying old TV shows might be one way to go... there are LOADS of other ways to go and many are far more fulfilling.
Hulu is coming in with an Ipad app that will required a subscription fee. Amazon is also coming in with a Kindle bookstore app for the Ipad. It will be interesting to see if Apple is going to allow this in the app store... if not expect one hell of a anti-Apple media coveraged. Netflix could also easily develop an Ipad app if they want...
I am waiting to see Apple reaction on apps that are competing with Itune before I buy an Ipad.
As for the apps... I've been involved with really long and silly arguments over this so I'll do my best to lay out what is likely to happen without raising the ire of other individuals who would come to the defense of the App Store...
- Apple will allow ANY app provided it does the following:
1. Conform to the terms and conditions set out in the developer guidelines.
2. NOT utilize ANY undocumented functions no matter how well known they are or how harmless they seem.
3. NOT allow ANY form of in APP purchasing**
4. NOT violate any laws (copyright or otherwise) and/or be potentially offensive (porn).
** In APP purchasing.. this is a sticky issue.. a programmer that wishes to send purchase information (an order) to a web site via SSL is prohibited from doing so no matter how secure the transaction is. However a programmer CAN provide in APP purchasing PROVIDED they use APPLE as the order/payment service AND don't mind paying APPLE a 30% fee from each transaction. So if a vendor is selling an item that they might make... 15% on the sale and APPLE demands 30% ... then as you can see the company that developed the program would actually be LOSING 15% on each and every sale (they would go broke).
Of course they COULD just RAISE the price of each item they sold via the APP by 30% but THEN who on earth would buy from them when the same product can be purchased by Apple for 30% less. As you can see its a no win scenario.
It's the typical amount most people in the US watch after they come home from work, it's a lot more on the weekends of course, the kids watching cartoons etc. all morning.
Perhaps in other countries the quality and quantity of shows isn't all that great, which leads people to do other things or perhaps they have to work more when they get home because people don't have things like like wash machines, dishwashers, robovac's etc.
Well, that's America's obesity problem explained!
The rest of us are not so vacuous as to get all our 'entertainment' from the television.
Arguing about HD on a 10 inch screen device (with no HDMI out to top it off) is simply retarded... imo you should move that argument to the AppleTV
No, criticizing it IS simply retarded. Its a huge f'ing screen, with plenty of f'ing pixels. It looks fine. GET OVER IT!!
This isn't about the money, it's all about control. The networks give away their shows now - but they fear the Apple hegemony will turn them from drivers into passengers in the shift to IP based delivery.
An "all you can eat" might work if the price was right but that's not happening. The way I see it is there ate note and netbooks that will play the movie free with only 5 15-:30
commercials and if someone comes out with a flash slate or even if ylthe courier does half of what it's said to do, ther could be problems. Time will tell
I see the ipad getting eaten up by many but the courier couldntake the enterprise
and students vs casual
user intact I know some that are selling their MBP, getting an
ipad and iMac, so this could, to some extent, hurt laptop
sales, especially if a lot of people do that. Thinking about doing that too with 4 cores.
I pray to The Great Lord above, I can buy that property one day or inherit some acres and move there.
The Internet changed everything. It brought the world together no more outsiders.
Amen!!!
Yep... the fools just don't want to see the reality of the situation... their content just isn't as valuable as it was in decades gone by... Also, when I say 'valuable' I don't mean in the QUALITY (cough) of the programming but the number of EYEBALLS that are desiring to see it (live - AD revenue) and/or on DVD/BluRay/Digital Delivery (practically pure profits).
One if not two generations are growing up in a world where 'the boob-tube' does NOT dominate their free time... and 'free time' isn't as great either... kids in the last few decades have had far more things to fill up their time then I did when I was growing up... 'Play dates' and 'trips abroad' (older kids obviously) were simply not head of and I lived in a very affluent town growing up. We would 'tear it up @ Sea Side Heights or LBI - hoping to hell we survived the week without getting arrested or involved in a drunken brawl ending at the emergency room' (good times!
And if they think OVERCHARGING for the product is the way to go... they are sorely mistaken. People will simply move on to something else... There's lots of things that are calling out for our entertainment dollars and while buying old TV shows might be one way to go... there are LOADS of other ways to go and many are far more fulfilling.
As for the apps... I've been involved with really long and silly arguments over this so I'll do my best to lay out what is likely to happen without raising the ire of other individuals who would come to the defense of the App Store...
- Apple will allow ANY app provided it does the following:
1. Conform to the terms and conditions set out in the developer guidelines.
2. NOT utilize ANY undocumented functions no matter how well known they are or how harmless they seem.
3. NOT allow ANY form of in APP purchasing**
4. NOT violate any laws (copyright or otherwise) and/or be potentially offensive (porn).
** In APP purchasing.. this is a sticky issue.. a programmer that wishes to send purchase information (an order) to a web site via SSL is prohibited from doing so no matter how secure the transaction is. However a programmer CAN provide in APP purchasing PROVIDED they use APPLE as the order/payment service AND don't mind paying APPLE a 30% fee from each transaction. So if a vendor is selling an item that they might make... 15% on the sale and APPLE demands 30% ... then as you can see the company that developed the program would actually be LOSING 15% on each and every sale (they would go broke).
Of course they COULD just RAISE the price of each item they sold via the APP by 30% but THEN who on earth would buy from them when the same product can be purchased by Apple for 30% less. As you can see its a no win scenario.
You're much too focused on PPD and resolution. The size of image is much more important, which is why most people, despite 52" or larger screens, still don't have true "home theater."
And resolution define what usable size you have. Unless you feel that SD on a 100" screen at 10 feet is acceptable as Home Theater. Trust me, it isn't but then I DO have a 100" 1080p screen to be able actually see.
A 52" 1080p HDTV can provide an immersive theater experience...if you sit at the right distance.
And gee...I did write that most folks don't have true home theater. What's your beef with that?
Sorry, but even if the iPad had full 1080p resolution, I wouldn't consider holding it at arms length (as you suggested) or even a foot away as an immersive, theater-like experience.
If the iPad had full 1080p resolution you could place it so it is exactly the same size as a 52" HDTV with the same resolution.
Out of curiosity where are you going to hold the iPad if not at around arms length or closer? Are your arms 10' long or something?
It's interesting how people constantly complained that netbooks with their 10" screens were too small to really enjoy movies on (despite the fact that they actually have 16:9 widescreen aspect ratios) and now they are completely accepting of the iPad for the same purpose.
I have never complained that netbooks are too small given I watch movies on my iPhone while traveling. They sure as heck are bigger than many IFE screens on airplanes.
I doubt very much that an HD movie on an iPad will look significantly better than even an SD movie on my Wind (which nevertheless plays back 720p just fine, if downsized). The Wind, like any 10" netbook, has exactly the same horizontal resolution as well as LED backlighting just like the iPad and because of the screen proportions, actually provides a physically wider image than the iPad does. Because it's the same horizontal resolution, logically, a 720p movie will display with the same vertical resolution, but the 576-pixel high image will almost perfectly fit the 600-pixel high screen.
Other than the IPS screen there should be no real difference. I dunno what your point is unless you simply want to move the goal posts.
My point is that no 10" screen provides HD and the iPad (as well as any other 10" screen) looks pretty much as good as HDTV given the way most people use theirs.
Arguing about HD on a 10 inch screen device (with no HDMI out to top it off) is simply retarded... imo you should move that argument to the AppleTV
Just cutting the FUD that the iPad will suck for movies. Effectively it'll be about as good as most HDTVs in most homes.
Very few folks have a home theater setup.