What are you getting out of these discussions? What does being banned from a forum like this say to you?
There's more to life than coming here to start arguments over nothing. If you can point out genuine talking points then go ahead, but I'm pretty sure you don't get banned for that (I'm still here afterall.)
I've read the patent and INAL but this patent seems to be describing a method for manufacturing in touch screens:The present invention relates to a combination circuit for detecting the layout in a flat panel with thin film transistor processed during array manufacturing process. This method conducts in a prior art short-ring layout and shorting-bar layoutso that the designing of the panel layout will not limited to the detection facility so as to promote the yield and reduce the cost.
I'm not sure how Apple would be violating the patent since they aren't manufacturing the screens but sourcing them from someone else. Unless the method Apple's supplier is using is exactly like the one described by the patent and Apple designed the touch screen method, I don't see how Apple is on the hook. I would think the supplier would be the one under the gun.
I don understand that you can violate patent by importing the violating item. This is to stop competitors arranging for the manufacture of the item (or its purchase) from an external jurisdiction. That being the case, Apple may have a case to answer depending on the merit of the matter.
Tried looking for which patent Elan is suing with both now and last year, and it's pretty elusive.
Some sites have patent 5,825,352: Multiple fingers contact sensing method for emulating mouse buttons and mouse operations on a touch sensor pad
The only thing close to infringing this patent is the 2 finger scroll on Apple's trackpads, and it's not that close. Here is the salient info:
"For clarity of explanation, the present invention can be described in most of its applications by establishing one finger as controlling movement of the cursor, and the second finger as controlling functions equivalent to a mouse button or switch. In this context, one finger may be considered the "point" finger, while the other is the "click" finger. Various conventional functions may then be defined accordingly. For example, "drag" may be effected by moving the two fingers in unison, "point and click" may be effected by moving the cursor with the first finger and tapping with the second finger, "point and double click" may be effected by moving the cursor with the first finger and double tapping with the second finger, and so on. "Click and Drag" may be performed simply by moving the cursor to the appropriate position with the first finger, placing both first and second fingers on the pad, and moving both fingers together."
The patent is really about replicating a mouse with multiple buttons with 2-point touch and gestures on a trackpad. As far as I can tell, Apple's implementation doesn't really infringe. A 2-finger scroll has no relation to the pointer. The driver detects a 2-point scroll and scrolls the front-most, active window. This patent is all about patenting a method for replicating a mouse with multiple buttons. They would have tried for a 1-point tap, but that is likely patented by someone else.
iPhone OS touchscreen devices basically have no relation this patent.
Other sites have patent 7,274,353: Capacitive touchpad integrated with key and handwriting functions
"A capacitive touchpad integrated with key and handwriting functions is provided for operation in key, handwriting and mouse modes. Several regions are defined on the panel of the touchpad and have several patterns printed thereon for the operation modes thereby."
Er, if the iPhone was like a Palm Pilot/III/V/T/etc., but with a capacitive touchpad for the text input area and the virtual buttons, Apple would be big trouble. Luckily for Apple, iPhone OS devices don't have touchpads, and Apple's trackpads (really touch pads) don't implement the aforementioned patents design. There are no virtual key regions, no specific regions for key, pointer or handwriting modes in Apple's trackpads.
What are the other patents involved in Elan versus Apple? Anyone?
Tried looking for which patent Elan is suing with both now and last year, and it's pretty elusive.
Some sites have patent 5,825,352: Multiple fingers contact sensing method for emulating mouse buttons and mouse operations on a touch sensor pad
The only thing close to infringing this patent is the 2 finger scroll on Apple's trackpads, and it's not that close. Here is the salient info:
"For clarity of explanation, the present invention can be described in most of its applications by establishing one finger as controlling movement of the cursor, and the second finger as controlling functions equivalent to a mouse button or switch. In this context, one finger may be considered the "point" finger, while the other is the "click" finger. Various conventional functions may then be defined accordingly. For example, "drag" may be effected by moving the two fingers in unison, "point and click" may be effected by moving the cursor with the first finger and tapping with the second finger, "point and double click" may be effected by moving the cursor with the first finger and double tapping with the second finger, and so on. "Click and Drag" may be performed simply by moving the cursor to the appropriate position with the first finger, placing both first and second fingers on the pad, and moving both fingers together."
The patent is really about replicating a mouse with multiple buttons with 2-point touch and gestures on a trackpad. As far as I can tell, Apple's implementation doesn't really infringe. A 2-finger scroll has no relation to the pointer. The driver detects a 2-point scroll and scrolls the front-most, active window. This patent is all about patenting a method for replicating a mouse with multiple buttons. They would have tried for a 1-point tap, but that is likely patented by someone else.
iPhone OS touchscreen devices basically have no relation this patent.
Other sites have patent 7,274,353: Capacitive touchpad integrated with key and handwriting functions
"A capacitive touchpad integrated with key and handwriting functions is provided for operation in key, handwriting and mouse modes. Several regions are defined on the panel of the touchpad and have several patterns printed thereon for the operation modes thereby."
Er, if the iPhone was like a Palm Pilot/III/V/T/etc., but with a capacitive touchpad for the text input area and the virtual buttons, Apple would be big trouble. Luckily for Apple, iPhone OS devices don't have touchpads, and Apple's trackpads (really touch pads) don't implement the aforementioned patents design. There are no virtual key regions, no specific regions for key, pointer or handwriting modes in Apple's trackpads.
What are the other patents involved in Elan versus Apple? Anyone?
I think what you're looking at is the abstract. More relevant to the action is the claims in the patent.
I think what you're looking at is the abstract. More relevant to the action is the claims in the patent.
Um, I did read the claims. What I've written is literally what they are claiming. The quote from 352 patent comes from the detailed description of the patent. The 353 patent claims are no more specific than what I have quoted from the abstract, but it is clear from the diagrams and the claims that they have patented a capacitive touchpad design similar in concept to Palm Pilot-based designs, except Palms used resistive "input" areas.
Um, I did read the claims. What I've written is literally what they are claiming. The quote from 352 patent comes from the detailed description of the patent. The 353 patent claims are no more specific than what I have quoted from the abstract, but it is clear from the diagrams and the claims that they have patented a capacitive touchpad design similar in concept to Palm Pilot-based designs, except Palms used resistive "input" areas.
I was incorrect in suggesting your were quoting the abstract. I still think what you've noted are examples of the invention of the patent itself and do not limit the implementation of the invention as clearly noted at page 16 of 352, for example. Also, in 352, at page 16, the Claims appear, of which there are 31. They're not mentioned in your post at all.
Everyone know Apple invented multi-touch and has patent. Who are these patent trolls???
No they didn't, Google multi touch and you will find there's examples of even the two finger pinch going back to the early 90s.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AppleRulez
The fact is, Apple is the most innovative company in the history of the world. Edison's got NOTHING on Steve!
I wouldn't say innovative, most of the technology in Apples really good stuff wasn't originally made by them or thought up by them. I would say what Apple is, is the best at recognizing really good ideas, buying them, potentially improving them and then fitting them together to make a really good product. Take cover flow on the iPhone, cover flow was made by someone else, and the touchscreen technology was made by someone else, put together by Apple and you have 1 really good interface.
Again, I don't know how it much it needs to be drilled into your head, but Steve was applying the quote from Picasso to demonstrate the culture and personality of himself/Apple.
I was incorrect in suggesting your were quoting the abstract. I still think what you've noted are examples of the invention of the patent itself and do not limit the implementation of the invention as clearly noted at page 16 of 352, for example. Also, in 352, at page 16, the Claims appear, of which there are 31. They're not mentioned in your post at all.
Narrow it down for me. Does iPhone, iPod touch or iPad violate either of these patents?
It's pretty clear to me that these patents revolve around touchpads or trackpads for controlling a computer display, not a touchscreen device. Once the capacitive touch pad is overlaid onto an LCD screen, these patents have no relation as there aren't any pointing "devices" with cursors any more.
So what's in play is the multi-touch trackpads in Apple's laptops.
The 353 patent basically doesn't apply to any Apple products as they don't have anything related to the first claim:
"1. A capacitive touchpad integrated with key and handwriting functions, comprising:
a panel for touch inputting; a first pattern on said panel for representing a mode switch to switch said touchpad between a key mode and a handwriting mode; a plurality of regions defined on said panel; and a plurality of second patterns on said plurality of regions for operation in said key and handwriting modes;
wherein said panel comprises:
a substrate selected from the group consisting of PCB, membrane and transparent plate;
a conductor wiring on said substrate; and an insulator covered on said conductor wiring."
All of the Apple trackpads I've seen don't have a dedicate region in their trackpads with icons printed on it to switch between entry modes for the trackpad. I'm not even sure why Elan is suing over this patent, if in fact they are.
For the 352 patent, I quoted what I thought was the intent of the patent, when they tried to clarify what the patent was doing. Most of the claims revolve around detection of multiple points, of which I'm not worried about because there will be a ton of prior patents it's building upon. The unique thing about the patent is the combination of the multi-touch touchpad using multiple fingers to emulate functions from a mouse with multiple buttons. That's the invention, not a touchpad capable of sensing multiple contacts. So, there are really three salient claims:
"3. The method of claim 1 further including the step of enabling a "drag" function to occur in response to the detection of at least a second maxima.
4. The method of claim 1 further including the step of enabling a "select" function in response to the detection of at least a second maxima.
5. The method of claim 1 further including the step of enabling an "ink" function in response to the detection of at least a second maxima."
Claim 1 is simply the method of a touchpad identifying multiple finger contacts. The other claims are about claim 1 and what you do with multiple finger contacts.
Claim 5. Um, ink function? What the hell is that? They want to use multiple fingers for "electronic finger painting" on a trackpad. None of Apple's trackpads do this, and Apple doesn't have a built-in application to do it.
Claim 4: Apple's trackpad uses single touch for select or a mechanical click.
Claim 3: drag function. Apple's track pad does not emulate this function. It is clear from the patents wording that the intention of this claim is "Yet a further object of the present invention is to provide a method for effecting the "click and drag" function on a touchpad through the use of multiple fingers." There is no click in Apple's 2-point scroll. There is no select in Apple's 2-point scroll. So how does Apple's implementation infringe if there is no pointing to a scroll bar?
What object is that patent purported to drag? A scroll bar? Obviously yes. An icon? I think yes. A whole window frame without selecting something first? Probably not. It's clear to me that they weren't even thinking about it like that. It is all about emulating a mouse in a WIMP style GUI like MS Windows.
You may feel differently or interpret differently, but I think the patent is pretty clear about using multi-touch to emulate mouse functions (hint: it's in the title of the patent). Apple's trackpad implementation I think is different enough. The 2-point touch to represent a right click is pretty close too, but the 352 neglected to mention it or have a claim of "enabling a right click function".
I don't have any feelings either way on it. Just making a slight correction to how you're interpreting the content of the patent. I'm not trying to be argumentative.
Comments
What are you getting out of these discussions? What does being banned from a forum like this say to you?
There's more to life than coming here to start arguments over nothing. If you can point out genuine talking points then go ahead, but I'm pretty sure you don't get banned for that (I'm still here afterall.)
I think the guy has issues. Seriously.
I've read the patent and INAL but this patent seems to be describing a method for manufacturing in touch screens:The present invention relates to a combination circuit for detecting the layout in a flat panel with thin film transistor processed during array manufacturing process. This method conducts in a prior art short-ring layout and shorting-bar layoutso that the designing of the panel layout will not limited to the detection facility so as to promote the yield and reduce the cost.
I'm not sure how Apple would be violating the patent since they aren't manufacturing the screens but sourcing them from someone else. Unless the method Apple's supplier is using is exactly like the one described by the patent and Apple designed the touch screen method, I don't see how Apple is on the hook. I would think the supplier would be the one under the gun.
I don understand that you can violate patent by importing the violating item. This is to stop competitors arranging for the manufacture of the item (or its purchase) from an external jurisdiction. That being the case, Apple may have a case to answer depending on the merit of the matter.
Some sites have patent 5,825,352: Multiple fingers contact sensing method for emulating mouse buttons and mouse operations on a touch sensor pad
The only thing close to infringing this patent is the 2 finger scroll on Apple's trackpads, and it's not that close. Here is the salient info:
"For clarity of explanation, the present invention can be described in most of its applications by establishing one finger as controlling movement of the cursor, and the second finger as controlling functions equivalent to a mouse button or switch. In this context, one finger may be considered the "point" finger, while the other is the "click" finger. Various conventional functions may then be defined accordingly. For example, "drag" may be effected by moving the two fingers in unison, "point and click" may be effected by moving the cursor with the first finger and tapping with the second finger, "point and double click" may be effected by moving the cursor with the first finger and double tapping with the second finger, and so on. "Click and Drag" may be performed simply by moving the cursor to the appropriate position with the first finger, placing both first and second fingers on the pad, and moving both fingers together."
The patent is really about replicating a mouse with multiple buttons with 2-point touch and gestures on a trackpad. As far as I can tell, Apple's implementation doesn't really infringe. A 2-finger scroll has no relation to the pointer. The driver detects a 2-point scroll and scrolls the front-most, active window. This patent is all about patenting a method for replicating a mouse with multiple buttons. They would have tried for a 1-point tap, but that is likely patented by someone else.
iPhone OS touchscreen devices basically have no relation this patent.
Other sites have patent 7,274,353: Capacitive touchpad integrated with key and handwriting functions
"A capacitive touchpad integrated with key and handwriting functions is provided for operation in key, handwriting and mouse modes. Several regions are defined on the panel of the touchpad and have several patterns printed thereon for the operation modes thereby."
Er, if the iPhone was like a Palm Pilot/III/V/T/etc., but with a capacitive touchpad for the text input area and the virtual buttons, Apple would be big trouble. Luckily for Apple, iPhone OS devices don't have touchpads, and Apple's trackpads (really touch pads) don't implement the aforementioned patents design. There are no virtual key regions, no specific regions for key, pointer or handwriting modes in Apple's trackpads.
What are the other patents involved in Elan versus Apple? Anyone?
Tried looking for which patent Elan is suing with both now and last year, and it's pretty elusive.
Some sites have patent 5,825,352: Multiple fingers contact sensing method for emulating mouse buttons and mouse operations on a touch sensor pad
The only thing close to infringing this patent is the 2 finger scroll on Apple's trackpads, and it's not that close. Here is the salient info:
"For clarity of explanation, the present invention can be described in most of its applications by establishing one finger as controlling movement of the cursor, and the second finger as controlling functions equivalent to a mouse button or switch. In this context, one finger may be considered the "point" finger, while the other is the "click" finger. Various conventional functions may then be defined accordingly. For example, "drag" may be effected by moving the two fingers in unison, "point and click" may be effected by moving the cursor with the first finger and tapping with the second finger, "point and double click" may be effected by moving the cursor with the first finger and double tapping with the second finger, and so on. "Click and Drag" may be performed simply by moving the cursor to the appropriate position with the first finger, placing both first and second fingers on the pad, and moving both fingers together."
The patent is really about replicating a mouse with multiple buttons with 2-point touch and gestures on a trackpad. As far as I can tell, Apple's implementation doesn't really infringe. A 2-finger scroll has no relation to the pointer. The driver detects a 2-point scroll and scrolls the front-most, active window. This patent is all about patenting a method for replicating a mouse with multiple buttons. They would have tried for a 1-point tap, but that is likely patented by someone else.
iPhone OS touchscreen devices basically have no relation this patent.
Other sites have patent 7,274,353: Capacitive touchpad integrated with key and handwriting functions
"A capacitive touchpad integrated with key and handwriting functions is provided for operation in key, handwriting and mouse modes. Several regions are defined on the panel of the touchpad and have several patterns printed thereon for the operation modes thereby."
Er, if the iPhone was like a Palm Pilot/III/V/T/etc., but with a capacitive touchpad for the text input area and the virtual buttons, Apple would be big trouble. Luckily for Apple, iPhone OS devices don't have touchpads, and Apple's trackpads (really touch pads) don't implement the aforementioned patents design. There are no virtual key regions, no specific regions for key, pointer or handwriting modes in Apple's trackpads.
What are the other patents involved in Elan versus Apple? Anyone?
I think what you're looking at is the abstract. More relevant to the action is the claims in the patent.
I think what you're looking at is the abstract. More relevant to the action is the claims in the patent.
Um, I did read the claims. What I've written is literally what they are claiming. The quote from 352 patent comes from the detailed description of the patent. The 353 patent claims are no more specific than what I have quoted from the abstract, but it is clear from the diagrams and the claims that they have patented a capacitive touchpad design similar in concept to Palm Pilot-based designs, except Palms used resistive "input" areas.
Um, I did read the claims. What I've written is literally what they are claiming. The quote from 352 patent comes from the detailed description of the patent. The 353 patent claims are no more specific than what I have quoted from the abstract, but it is clear from the diagrams and the claims that they have patented a capacitive touchpad design similar in concept to Palm Pilot-based designs, except Palms used resistive "input" areas.
I was incorrect in suggesting your were quoting the abstract. I still think what you've noted are examples of the invention of the patent itself and do not limit the implementation of the invention as clearly noted at page 16 of 352, for example. Also, in 352, at page 16, the Claims appear, of which there are 31. They're not mentioned in your post at all.
Everyone know Apple invented multi-touch and has patent. Who are these patent trolls???
No they didn't, Google multi touch and you will find there's examples of even the two finger pinch going back to the early 90s.
The fact is, Apple is the most innovative company in the history of the world. Edison's got NOTHING on Steve!
I wouldn't say innovative, most of the technology in Apples really good stuff wasn't originally made by them or thought up by them. I would say what Apple is, is the best at recognizing really good ideas, buying them, potentially improving them and then fitting them together to make a really good product. Take cover flow on the iPhone, cover flow was made by someone else, and the touchscreen technology was made by someone else, put together by Apple and you have 1 really good interface.
I would say what Apple is, is the best at recognizing really good ideas
And stealing them, to quote Steve Jobs from the 90s.
And stealing them, to quote Steve Jobs from the 90s.
Pathetic.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...asso+sophistry
Pathetic.
http://forums.appleinsider.com/showt...asso+sophistry
Again, I don't know how it much it needs to be drilled into your head, but Steve was applying the quote from Picasso to demonstrate the culture and personality of himself/Apple.
I was incorrect in suggesting your were quoting the abstract. I still think what you've noted are examples of the invention of the patent itself and do not limit the implementation of the invention as clearly noted at page 16 of 352, for example. Also, in 352, at page 16, the Claims appear, of which there are 31. They're not mentioned in your post at all.
Narrow it down for me. Does iPhone, iPod touch or iPad violate either of these patents?
It's pretty clear to me that these patents revolve around touchpads or trackpads for controlling a computer display, not a touchscreen device. Once the capacitive touch pad is overlaid onto an LCD screen, these patents have no relation as there aren't any pointing "devices" with cursors any more.
So what's in play is the multi-touch trackpads in Apple's laptops.
The 353 patent basically doesn't apply to any Apple products as they don't have anything related to the first claim:
"1. A capacitive touchpad integrated with key and handwriting functions, comprising:
a panel for touch inputting; a first pattern on said panel for representing a mode switch to switch said touchpad between a key mode and a handwriting mode; a plurality of regions defined on said panel; and a plurality of second patterns on said plurality of regions for operation in said key and handwriting modes;
wherein said panel comprises:
a substrate selected from the group consisting of PCB, membrane and transparent plate;
a conductor wiring on said substrate; and an insulator covered on said conductor wiring."
All of the Apple trackpads I've seen don't have a dedicate region in their trackpads with icons printed on it to switch between entry modes for the trackpad. I'm not even sure why Elan is suing over this patent, if in fact they are.
For the 352 patent, I quoted what I thought was the intent of the patent, when they tried to clarify what the patent was doing. Most of the claims revolve around detection of multiple points, of which I'm not worried about because there will be a ton of prior patents it's building upon. The unique thing about the patent is the combination of the multi-touch touchpad using multiple fingers to emulate functions from a mouse with multiple buttons. That's the invention, not a touchpad capable of sensing multiple contacts. So, there are really three salient claims:
"3. The method of claim 1 further including the step of enabling a "drag" function to occur in response to the detection of at least a second maxima.
4. The method of claim 1 further including the step of enabling a "select" function in response to the detection of at least a second maxima.
5. The method of claim 1 further including the step of enabling an "ink" function in response to the detection of at least a second maxima."
Claim 1 is simply the method of a touchpad identifying multiple finger contacts. The other claims are about claim 1 and what you do with multiple finger contacts.
Claim 5. Um, ink function? What the hell is that? They want to use multiple fingers for "electronic finger painting" on a trackpad. None of Apple's trackpads do this, and Apple doesn't have a built-in application to do it.
Claim 4: Apple's trackpad uses single touch for select or a mechanical click.
Claim 3: drag function. Apple's track pad does not emulate this function. It is clear from the patents wording that the intention of this claim is "Yet a further object of the present invention is to provide a method for effecting the "click and drag" function on a touchpad through the use of multiple fingers." There is no click in Apple's 2-point scroll. There is no select in Apple's 2-point scroll. So how does Apple's implementation infringe if there is no pointing to a scroll bar?
What object is that patent purported to drag? A scroll bar? Obviously yes. An icon? I think yes. A whole window frame without selecting something first? Probably not. It's clear to me that they weren't even thinking about it like that. It is all about emulating a mouse in a WIMP style GUI like MS Windows.
You may feel differently or interpret differently, but I think the patent is pretty clear about using multi-touch to emulate mouse functions (hint: it's in the title of the patent). Apple's trackpad implementation I think is different enough. The 2-point touch to represent a right click is pretty close too, but the 352 neglected to mention it or have a claim of "enabling a right click function".