Even before the iPhone, AT&T was the king of dropped calls. Now they try to blame Apple. Mr. Jobs & Co. best watch out that their partner's bad reputation doesn't tarnish Apple's image. Regardless of the reports and promises, the bottom line is the user's experience and AT&T can't excuse themselves from that.
AT&T may have been the "king of dropped calls", but Verizon was the "queen of unintelligible calls" that made you hang up and call back when I had them. So what's the difference to the end user if AT&T's network boots you off when the signal is so bad it can't maintain the call, and Verizon's network hangs on until the bitter end, even though you and the person you're talking to can't hear a thing the other is saying?
In these Apple-related forums, we tend to hear a lot of AT&T hate because most of us have an iPhone and AT&T service. I assure you, if you read around the rest of the net where there's less Apple and AT&T bias, you'll find just as many people who hate Verizon for one reason or another as those that hate AT&T.
The only US cellular network that seems to have almost everyone who uses it just love the company to death is T-Mobile, despite their network being the smallest and worst coverage. It's bizarre, really,
Apple also took away the option to check e-mail automatically every 5 minutes. With the 3.1.3 update, the minimum period is now 15 minutes. That saves a load on AT&T.
Ars Technica ran one a while back as well with more technical background but not the full story.
I've read a technical report from a network vendor that gives more light to this.
The main culprit seems to be iPhone OS 3.0 and its introduction of "Fast Dormancy", which RIM originally created to save on battery life. This mode of operation, which is agaist the spirit of the 3GPP Specifications (i.e. exploits a loophole), causes the iPhone (and RIM + Android) to generate 30 signalling messages / change in data transfer state vs. other phones, which do 4 signalling messages. That in itself causes massive increases in load in the network. I'll leave out the boring technical details for the moment.
Add to this any applications that may poll the network every minute or two, you'll quickly see why the load in networks with iPhones has risen (iPhone seems to be much more "chatty"). It's not necessarily about data BW usage, it's about signalling load. This would correspond nicely with the odd and unsubstantiated reports of people saying that their problems with making phone calls went away when people with iPhones had left (say a party situation, where people are not using data but are texting and calling).
One operator's chart in Europe showed a dramatic (an understatement actually) increase in signalling load in the first two weeks of iPhone OS 3.0 release. And this for an operator, where the iPhone penetration wasn't that big at that point. I can only imagine what it is at AT&T, where iPhones and RIMs are predominant. BW usage increases were not nearly as dramatic.
I've been talking to network engineers across Europe and Asia about this and many confirm this.
They also talk about problems in voice connections, where there are intermittent 5-10sec breaks in voice with the iPhone. How widespread that is and why it occurs, I don't know yet, but it seems to be an issue in some networks.
If someone wants a more technical detail oriented description, I can do that as well.
I remember hearing about some issue related to communication proticals and packet size months ago. I was from the UK as noted by another poster. The iPhone was doing small hit and run communications that left active connections hanging until they timed out. This filled the network with dead connection tieing up spots choking the network. The solution would be a software one as the chips are similar if not the same as other phones. It in the software where it tells the chips how to talk to the towers/network.
Hopefully this fix will be in the next OS update.
Has ANYONE been having trouble lately receiving calls where theirphone isn't ringing and you're missing calls? This started about two weeks ago for me and my Princess Wife!!!
Thanks. People are calling and the phones not ringing. Sometimes it's fine.
I don't understand the crowd that insists that there will be no iPhone for Verizon until LTE is rolled out.
Apparently Google can, working with HTC and Motorola release phones which work on many multiple networking technologies, but Apple can't achieve this simple task in 3 years?
The only reason Apple wont sell on Verizon will be contractual, and not technological.
Adding CDMA will be one of the easier things Apple would have done, since it involves changing only one part of the network stack.
This is technically inaccurate as the problem is INDEED technological rather than simply contractual.
Your assumption that Google/HTC/Motorola (the Android) camp can produce phones for multiple technologies relies on ONE phone having multiple chipsets that adhere to multiple wireless standards, but few phones do.
Take the Nexus One for example. The Nexus One for each individual carrier (T-Mobile, AT&T, Verizon, possibly Sprint) is technically different from the other. The T-Mobile Nexus One unlocked would still be incompatible with AT&T's 3G network because the 3G frequency used by T-Mobile is different from that of AT&T. Additionally, the T-Mobile/AT&T Nexus Ones would be incompatible with Verizon's network as it uses EV-DO. Therefore, even though HTC/Google may sell the phone under the same "Nexus One" brand, each carrier's phone would in fact be technically incompatible with the other. Therefore, each device would still become hardware locked to a single carrier within the United States.
The only solution is to include a second chipset and all the necessary antennas to support both standards in the US but this adds size, cost, weight, and battery management issues to an already long list of technical challenges. LTE is not yet the answer because Verizon users will still require something to fall back on should LTE be unavailable in a certain area, forcing the handset maker to include EVDO/CDMA2000 capability, thus still requiring the addition of a separate chip and associated hardware.
OR, to wait for someone to develop ONE chipset that can do it all (Qualcomm is now sampling such a chip to device makers). But until such solutions reach mass market, this is a pointless exercise. Unless Apple has decided to fragment its mobile phone market share by releasing two technically incompatible phones (one for AT&T and one for Verizon), we will have to wait for Qualcomm's multi-standard chipset to arrive sometime towards the end of the year before hardware makers can even consider using the chips in their next-gen phones.
Adding support for an extra frequency range is likely to be far easier than adding support for CDMA. The former would require tuning into a new frequency, while the latter would potentially require an extra chipset.
I thought I had heard that Verizon was already building a 4G GSM wireless network? It may be ready sooner than we expect, even if it is not across the country. It is not impossible for Apple to add CDMA support, but given the limited market, I would it odd for Apple to invest in it, unless they are getting something back from Verizon.
i still don't understand why people think it would be so much better on Verizon???
i have service with all the major carriers right now. AT&T, Verizon and Sprint.... it really depends on where you live. IHMO, where i live and travel, Sprint it probably the best of the 3. but if i lived somewhere else, that might change....
Has ANYONE been having trouble lately receiving calls where theirphone isn't ringing and you're missing calls? This started about two weeks ago for me and my Princess Wife!!!
Thanks. People are calling and the phones not ringing. Sometimes it's fine.
that happens to me all the time... then i remember i forgot the phone was in "silent" mode.
Granted, Rogers isn't the cheapest, but I've always found their service excellent.
Having spent a number of years in the Signal Corps, I never complained about Rogers or any wireless company. Even from the day I bought my first cell phone in 1984 from Cantel which looked something like this
I understood that anytime something placed between you and the person you are conversing with is downhill.
As for Rogers not being the cheapest, keep in mind that when Rogers introduced the iPhone, the difference in the CDN and US $'s were significant. At some points, my Rogers bills were 20-25% less compared to than U.S. counterparts. People tend to forget that the subsidized cost of the iPhone in Canada is exactly the same as the US even at the most of times when the US dollar was above ours.
And we should appreciate that while the US was squabbling over protocols, Canadian wireless companies tended to build systems keeping in mind that to communicate with most of the world, best to side with the majority or at least develop the infrastructure or realize at least that you may have to change your plans. In addition, up here, we had to buy technology to build our infrastructure from the US at a time that our dollar was around the 70% US mark. And unlike most countries in the world, we didn't have the generous contributions of the taxpayer or subsidizations of the government to lean on.
Yet all that and we have some of the best service in the world. As for Rogers in particular, I never had a concern that a simple phone call did not resolve. Thus the Art of Communication.
I don't understand the crowd that insists that there will be no iPhone for Verizon until LTE is rolled out.
Apparently Google can, working with HTC and Motorola release phones which work on many multiple networking technologies, but Apple can't achieve this simple task in 3 years?
The only reason Apple wont sell on Verizon will be contractual, and not technological.
Adding CDMA will be one of the easier things Apple would have done, since it involves changing only one part of the network stack.
AT&T paid Apple $750 million to help develop the iphone. for that they got a long period of it being exclusive to their network in the US.
the Nexus One is made by HTC which makes phones for all carriers and there was no contract to make it exclusive. but the way Google is selling it, they are being very careful not to make it successful and piss off their Android partners
Do you really think Apple can afford to blow Verizon off?
Actually, based on the last couple years' worth of financial results, I'd say Apple can afford to blow off pretty much whomever it desires -- especially Verizon, which was apparently pretty dismissive of the iPhone when Steve first came calling. From both a business perspective and Apple's track record from eschewing outdated technical standards, I'd agree with the supposition that there will be no Verizon iPhone until that carrier has built out fairly extensive 4G coverage.
They are far from perfect, and when I first relocated to points NW, I immediately dumped AT&T (during the Cingular fiasco) and moved over to Verizon. Now THAT was a joke.
Fast forward a few years and I have to say that I have absolutely loved my experience with the iPhone 3Gs and AT&T.
Over the past 2 months, things have only gotten worse in my experience here in the the San Francisco metro area (downtown and in Marin). Both voice and 3G data network service seem to be severely compromised. I wish there was some constructive way to provide feedback to AT&T about how poor their service is - at least in this geographic area.
Jarkko, That is exactly what I was trying to recall with my fading memory and layman's terms.
As for AT&T service here in my section of Chicagoland, it has been great. We had Sprint for 10 years before switching to AT&T and iPhone right before Christmas and we used to have dropped calls all the time. We would also go into any significant office or shopping building and it would get way worse. We have had only 2 dropped calls in the 3 1/2 months since switching.
Also, in an area of rural Wisconsin that Verizion claimed superior coverage my iPhone still had EDGE and decent data speeds where my family with Verizon could have to walk into a certain room and get close to the window to make a call and they got no data network.
Comments
Do you really think Apple can afford to blow Verizon off?
Well, Apple's done pretty damned well for the last 2.75 years blowing off Verizon. Why stop now?
Even before the iPhone, AT&T was the king of dropped calls. Now they try to blame Apple. Mr. Jobs & Co. best watch out that their partner's bad reputation doesn't tarnish Apple's image. Regardless of the reports and promises, the bottom line is the user's experience and AT&T can't excuse themselves from that.
AT&T may have been the "king of dropped calls", but Verizon was the "queen of unintelligible calls" that made you hang up and call back when I had them. So what's the difference to the end user if AT&T's network boots you off when the signal is so bad it can't maintain the call, and Verizon's network hangs on until the bitter end, even though you and the person you're talking to can't hear a thing the other is saying?
In these Apple-related forums, we tend to hear a lot of AT&T hate because most of us have an iPhone and AT&T service. I assure you, if you read around the rest of the net where there's less Apple and AT&T bias, you'll find just as many people who hate Verizon for one reason or another as those that hate AT&T.
The only US cellular network that seems to have almost everyone who uses it just love the company to death is T-Mobile, despite their network being the smallest and worst coverage. It's bizarre, really,
Here is what may be the first stories on the iPhone's air interface being at fault. Tip of the hat to NasserAE in hunting these down..
Ars Technica ran one a while back as well with more technical background but not the full story.
I've read a technical report from a network vendor that gives more light to this.
The main culprit seems to be iPhone OS 3.0 and its introduction of "Fast Dormancy", which RIM originally created to save on battery life. This mode of operation, which is agaist the spirit of the 3GPP Specifications (i.e. exploits a loophole), causes the iPhone (and RIM + Android) to generate 30 signalling messages / change in data transfer state vs. other phones, which do 4 signalling messages. That in itself causes massive increases in load in the network. I'll leave out the boring technical details for the moment.
Add to this any applications that may poll the network every minute or two, you'll quickly see why the load in networks with iPhones has risen (iPhone seems to be much more "chatty"). It's not necessarily about data BW usage, it's about signalling load. This would correspond nicely with the odd and unsubstantiated reports of people saying that their problems with making phone calls went away when people with iPhones had left (say a party situation, where people are not using data but are texting and calling).
One operator's chart in Europe showed a dramatic (an understatement actually) increase in signalling load in the first two weeks of iPhone OS 3.0 release. And this for an operator, where the iPhone penetration wasn't that big at that point. I can only imagine what it is at AT&T, where iPhones and RIMs are predominant. BW usage increases were not nearly as dramatic.
I've been talking to network engineers across Europe and Asia about this and many confirm this.
They also talk about problems in voice connections, where there are intermittent 5-10sec breaks in voice with the iPhone. How widespread that is and why it occurs, I don't know yet, but it seems to be an issue in some networks.
If someone wants a more technical detail oriented description, I can do that as well.
Regs, Jarkko
Jarkko, I damn you for ruining a perfectly good operator war discussion with your insightful facts!
My apologies for committing an atrocious sin
Regs, Jarkko
I remember hearing about some issue related to communication proticals and packet size months ago. I was from the UK as noted by another poster. The iPhone was doing small hit and run communications that left active connections hanging until they timed out. This filled the network with dead connection tieing up spots choking the network. The solution would be a software one as the chips are similar if not the same as other phones. It in the software where it tells the chips how to talk to the towers/network.
Hopefully this fix will be in the next OS update.
Has ANYONE been having trouble lately receiving calls where theirphone isn't ringing and you're missing calls? This started about two weeks ago for me and my Princess Wife!!!
Thanks. People are calling and the phones not ringing. Sometimes it's fine.
I don't understand the crowd that insists that there will be no iPhone for Verizon until LTE is rolled out.
Apparently Google can, working with HTC and Motorola release phones which work on many multiple networking technologies, but Apple can't achieve this simple task in 3 years?
The only reason Apple wont sell on Verizon will be contractual, and not technological.
Adding CDMA will be one of the easier things Apple would have done, since it involves changing only one part of the network stack.
This is technically inaccurate as the problem is INDEED technological rather than simply contractual.
Your assumption that Google/HTC/Motorola (the Android) camp can produce phones for multiple technologies relies on ONE phone having multiple chipsets that adhere to multiple wireless standards, but few phones do.
Take the Nexus One for example. The Nexus One for each individual carrier (T-Mobile, AT&T, Verizon, possibly Sprint) is technically different from the other. The T-Mobile Nexus One unlocked would still be incompatible with AT&T's 3G network because the 3G frequency used by T-Mobile is different from that of AT&T. Additionally, the T-Mobile/AT&T Nexus Ones would be incompatible with Verizon's network as it uses EV-DO. Therefore, even though HTC/Google may sell the phone under the same "Nexus One" brand, each carrier's phone would in fact be technically incompatible with the other. Therefore, each device would still become hardware locked to a single carrier within the United States.
The only solution is to include a second chipset and all the necessary antennas to support both standards in the US but this adds size, cost, weight, and battery management issues to an already long list of technical challenges. LTE is not yet the answer because Verizon users will still require something to fall back on should LTE be unavailable in a certain area, forcing the handset maker to include EVDO/CDMA2000 capability, thus still requiring the addition of a separate chip and associated hardware.
OR, to wait for someone to develop ONE chipset that can do it all (Qualcomm is now sampling such a chip to device makers). But until such solutions reach mass market, this is a pointless exercise. Unless Apple has decided to fragment its mobile phone market share by releasing two technically incompatible phones (one for AT&T and one for Verizon), we will have to wait for Qualcomm's multi-standard chipset to arrive sometime towards the end of the year before hardware makers can even consider using the chips in their next-gen phones.
I thought I had heard that Verizon was already building a 4G GSM wireless network? It may be ready sooner than we expect, even if it is not across the country. It is not impossible for Apple to add CDMA support, but given the limited market, I would it odd for Apple to invest in it, unless they are getting something back from Verizon.
Edit: Verizon's 4G network is going live this year. The next iPhone will have 4G GSM support, not Qualcomm CDMA, IMHO: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13970_7-10166622-78.html
i have service with all the major carriers right now. AT&T, Verizon and Sprint.... it really depends on where you live. IHMO, where i live and travel, Sprint it probably the best of the 3. but if i lived somewhere else, that might change....
Has ANYONE been having trouble lately receiving calls where theirphone isn't ringing and you're missing calls? This started about two weeks ago for me and my Princess Wife!!!
Thanks. People are calling and the phones not ringing. Sometimes it's fine.
that happens to me all the time... then i remember i forgot the phone was in "silent" mode.
And we complain about Rogers!
Granted, Rogers isn't the cheapest, but I've always found their service excellent.
Having spent a number of years in the Signal Corps, I never complained about Rogers or any wireless company. Even from the day I bought my first cell phone in 1984 from Cantel which looked something like this
I understood that anytime something placed between you and the person you are conversing with is downhill.
As for Rogers not being the cheapest, keep in mind that when Rogers introduced the iPhone, the difference in the CDN and US $'s were significant. At some points, my Rogers bills were 20-25% less compared to than U.S. counterparts. People tend to forget that the subsidized cost of the iPhone in Canada is exactly the same as the US even at the most of times when the US dollar was above ours.
And we should appreciate that while the US was squabbling over protocols, Canadian wireless companies tended to build systems keeping in mind that to communicate with most of the world, best to side with the majority or at least develop the infrastructure or realize at least that you may have to change your plans. In addition, up here, we had to buy technology to build our infrastructure from the US at a time that our dollar was around the 70% US mark. And unlike most countries in the world, we didn't have the generous contributions of the taxpayer or subsidizations of the government to lean on.
Yet all that and we have some of the best service in the world. As for Rogers in particular, I never had a concern that a simple phone call did not resolve. Thus the Art of Communication.
I don't understand the crowd that insists that there will be no iPhone for Verizon until LTE is rolled out.
Apparently Google can, working with HTC and Motorola release phones which work on many multiple networking technologies, but Apple can't achieve this simple task in 3 years?
The only reason Apple wont sell on Verizon will be contractual, and not technological.
Adding CDMA will be one of the easier things Apple would have done, since it involves changing only one part of the network stack.
AT&T paid Apple $750 million to help develop the iphone. for that they got a long period of it being exclusive to their network in the US.
the Nexus One is made by HTC which makes phones for all carriers and there was no contract to make it exclusive. but the way Google is selling it, they are being very careful not to make it successful and piss off their Android partners
Do you really think Apple can afford to blow Verizon off?
Actually, based on the last couple years' worth of financial results, I'd say Apple can afford to blow off pretty much whomever it desires -- especially Verizon, which was apparently pretty dismissive of the iPhone when Steve first came calling. From both a business perspective and Apple's track record from eschewing outdated technical standards, I'd agree with the supposition that there will be no Verizon iPhone until that carrier has built out fairly extensive 4G coverage.
i am satisfied with at&t. No plans to leave unless there is a monthly cost savings. 10 bucks isn't enough to make me move.
rotflmao!!!
They are far from perfect, and when I first relocated to points NW, I immediately dumped AT&T (during the Cingular fiasco) and moved over to Verizon. Now THAT was a joke.
Fast forward a few years and I have to say that I have absolutely loved my experience with the iPhone 3Gs and AT&T.
Just like my Macs..... it just works.
As for AT&T service here in my section of Chicagoland, it has been great. We had Sprint for 10 years before switching to AT&T and iPhone right before Christmas and we used to have dropped calls all the time. We would also go into any significant office or shopping building and it would get way worse. We have had only 2 dropped calls in the 3 1/2 months since switching.
Also, in an area of rural Wisconsin that Verizion claimed superior coverage my iPhone still had EDGE and decent data speeds where my family with Verizon could have to walk into a certain room and get close to the window to make a call and they got no data network.
Like s4mb4 said, it's all about where you live.