The A4 may be the fastest processor Apple's personally made, but it's still not in a position to replace Nehalem and Westmere or Sandy Bridge and other future Intel micro-architectures. x86 code reuse and the move to Intel processors has definitely seen the revival of the Mac platform or at least accelerated growth and I doubt Apple would want to risk that moving to ARM for seemingly little benefit.
This is a point that I think most tech-heads just do not seem to get. The iPad (just like the iPhone) is not a "computer" in the literal sense. It's a toaster. It is not meant to be anything related to the PC paradigm of loading whatever you want, how you want.
Go and use one of those HP-slate or whatever it is to do your thing. It has the x86 architecture already in it and everything else you folks are clamoring for..
Oh right... but you like Apple's implementation but hate that the non-x86 architecture is going to take the fun away you have with PC's??? Soo.... what's you're original issue?
The majority of iPad consumers will not give a rat's a** about this issue. It's transparent to them and rightfully should be.
This is a point that I think most tech-heads just do not seem to get. The iPad (just like the iPhone) is not a "computer" in the literal sense. It's a toaster. It is not meant to be anything related to the PC paradigm of loading whatever you want, how you want.
That's absolutely right. Apple are becoming the master of devices that can do a few things perfectly, as opposed to lots of things averagely.
Wow! That is remarkably cheaper than previously stated. The iPad may for itself in this first quarter.
PS: Why isn't SpotOn banned yet? Are his attempts at trying to derail the thread not obvious?
I suggest you take it to the "Why Hasn't AI Put It's Foot Down" thread in general discussion. Mr. H is soliciting examples of what we've all been talking about for a while. SpotOn is a particularly crafty kind of troll, spreading FUD mixed with the odd "just trying to keep it real" post mixed with only the occasional showing of his real agenda (Apple users are ignorant idiots and children).
What's got me horrified and a lot of other people too, is that Apple is going to drop Intel processors for these A4's and we will no longer have the ability to use other operating systems and the like with our Mac's.
Worst off if they decide to lock their machines down to the App Store, restrict our freedom with our machines and force us use the iPad UI instead of windows UI.
Apple hasn't released the MacBook Pro updates in quite some time, which leads me to believe they intend to create pent up demand in that market and force people to switch to something very radical.
Actually, the conspiracy theory factory of my brain started to think of things like this, but then I realized just recently it was announced steam was coming to OSX with support for the source engine (which I think the A4 processor would not handle) so why would they make that move?
I'm comfortable in saying the A4 processor will be left to things like the ipad and iphone while their actual computers will continue to use Intel. I know Jobs wants to control every aspect of the products Apple makes, but the market and overall computing environment has him by the balls in this regard.
... SpotOn is a particularly crafty kind of troll, spreading FUD mixed with the odd "just trying to keep it real" post mixed with only the occasional showing of his real agenda (Apple users are ignorant idiots and children).
Or even better. The smog in So Cal is rilly, rilly bad and that's why its moar better to work for Google.
Actually, the conspiracy theory factory of my brain started to think of things like this, but then I realized just recently it was announced steam was coming to OSX with support for the source engine (which I think the A4 processor would not handle) so why would they make that move?
I'm comfortable in saying the A4 processor will be left to things like the ipad and iphone while their actual computers will continue to use Intel. I know Jobs wants to control every aspect of the products Apple makes, but the market and overall computing environment has him by the balls in this regard.
Um, yeah. The only time Steve doesn't do pure evil is if some set of circumstances "has him by the balls." Because of the evilness.
The reason for the MacBook Pro delay is probably comprised of: A.) the fact that Apple is typically a late adopter, B.) availability of the high-end 32nm parts has been constrained, and C.) the ongoing Intel-Nvidia-FTC legal morass.
I wonder though if Apple is working on their own chipsets. Does anyone know if they have the right license to do so?
My personal hope is that the next MacBook Pro is going to use DX11 ATI Mobility HD5000 series GPUs, say the HD5750 or even the HD5830, and it's low availability of these DX11 mobile GPUs that is holding them up.
In terms of Apple creating their own chipset, I don't see much benefit. With both the PCie controller and the memory controller on the CPU itself, only the southbridge hangs off the DMI link for I/O connectivity. The TDP of the PM55/HM57 chipset is only 3.5W so even if Apple made a custom southbridge and removed excess SATA, USB or whatever I/O they don't need you aren't going to get a huge power savings. And if we are talking IGP, even if Apple had a chipset license, I don't think they have the experience to start designing their own IGP/GPUs. And if Apple were to try to license an IGP from nVidia to integrate into their own chipset, there is still the technical limitation of the DMI link not having the bandwidth to supply a graphics chip. Memory access for an IGP is also less efficient now that the memory controller isn't on the chipset but on the processor.
At best, rather than designing their own chipset, Apple should request Intel provide their existing PM55 or HM57 chipsets in a smaller package to free up motherboard space for Apple to provide a dedicated low-end GPU for models that previously had only a nVidia IGP. That would yield better performance than either Intel or nVidia IGPs.
I wonder if the ARM architecture is capable of running a full OS like Windows or OS X.
My guess is that OS X would boot on an ARM-based computer in a partly-crippled, performance-challenged manner. I'm not sure if ARM's floating point unit is up to snuff for today's more complex operations (multimedia authoring, technical/scientific calculations, etc.).
Also, ARM is a 32-bit architecture.
The computing world has largely moved on to 64-bit architecture. 32-bit is fine for mobile devices and CE appliances (like routers and DVRs).
As for Windows, the point is moot. It only runs on x86.
My guess is that OS X would boot on an ARM-based computer in a partly-cripped, performance-challenged manner. I'm not sure if ARM's floating point unit is up to snuff for today's more complex operations (multimedia authoring, technical/scientific calculations, etc.)
Well in ARM's defense the newer Cortex A8 and A9 does have a NEON SIMD instruction set that is supposed to be their answer to SSE and Altivec for multimedia acceleration and the like. Although of course, supporting things has little to do with the actual speed they run at.
My personal hope is that the next MacBook Pro is going to use DX11 ATI Mobility HD5000 series GPUs, say the HD5750 or even the HD5830, and it's low availability of these DX11 mobile GPUs that is holding them up.
(post truncated for legibility)
Thanks for the response.
I'm just an outsider, I don't really follow the chip industry, so your points are educational for me. I believe that Apple had designed chipsets in the past, but I don't really know anything about chip design myself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ltcommander.data
Well in ARM's defense the newer Cortex A8 and A9 does have a NEON SIMD instruction set that is supposed to be their answer to SSE and Altivec for multimedia acceleration and the like. Although of course, supporting things has little to do with the actual speed they run at.
Again, thanks for commenting. I learn something from your posts. I wish I could say that for everyone around here.
What's got me horrified and a lot of other people too, is that Apple is going to drop Intel processors for these A4's and we will no longer have the ability to use other operating systems and the like with our Mac's.
Worst off if they decide to lock their machines down to the App Store, restrict our freedom with our machines and force us use the iPad UI instead of windows UI.
Apple hasn't released the MacBook Pro updates in quite some time, which leads me to believe they intend to create pent up demand in that market and force people to switch to something very radical.
You are horrified by something you completely made up in your head? Something, by the way, that makes no business sense for Apple. What makes me really laugh is that in this nightmare of your own making you specifically singled out the MacBook PRO line, not the more casual MacBook line.
So against my better judgement (because I like seeing people suffer from self made delusions) I will attempt to calm you down:
A4s do not run at 3ghz... required to run applications of any serious size (e.g Photoshop)
A4s do not have multiple cores... standard on desktops today
A4s do not bridge with desktop GPUs... required to run displays of the sizes seen in MacBook Pros
Lastly, A4s do not run Intel software... which magnifies all the previous problems because all current software would have to run emulated! That means it would be emulated on chips 3 times slower, without the aid of multiple cores and would have to moving 10 times as many pixels on the display.
Do you watch Faux News? Seems like you and they might be a good fit.
Yeah. I can't wait until the break down by iFixit tomorrow. Hopefully we'll be able to find out shortly which CPU is being used.
They got me yesterday when they posted a breakdown of what I thought was the iPad but turned out to be the Newton.
Presumably wouldn't the A4 CPU that iFixit sees be the same as Apple has provided high-res pictures of already? I don't think they'll be able to tell much of the CPU micro-architecture from external physical views.
I am interested in seeing if RAM count has increased from 256MB in third-gen iPhone and iPod Touch models to 512MB. Combined with faster memory and maybe more RAM chips which could indicate a wider memory bus, it could explain why the iPad reportedly seems so much faster than the 600MHz to 1GHz clock speed increase would justify if it is true that the A4 is still single core Cortex A8 based. Other hardware based speed increases could be faster Flash memory even at the same capacity and increased cache sizes on the CPU which would be harder to determine.
What's got me horrified and a lot of other people too, is that Apple is going to drop Intel processors for these A4's and we will no longer have the ability to use other operating systems and the like with our Mac's.
Worst off if they decide to lock their machines down to the App Store, restrict our freedom with our machines and force us use the iPad UI instead of windows UI.
Apple hasn't released the MacBook Pro updates in quite some time, which leads me to believe they intend to create pent up demand in that market and force people to switch to something very radical.
What's got me horrified and a lot of other people too, is that Apple is going to drop Intel processors for these A4's and we will no longer have the ability to use other operating systems and the like with our Mac's.
I didn't read that in the article, and it is not going to happen anytime soon. Also if you look behine you there are not a lot of people thinking that--your remark reminds me of the US Army commercial "the Army of One".
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotOn
Worst off if they decide to lock their machines down to the App Store, restrict our freedom with our machines and force us use the iPad UI instead of windows UI.
Didn't read this either. OS X will still be around for several years. A good question is that Apple took out a Trade Mark on the name iSlate--a new device similar to the iPad but Core ix???
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotOn
Apple hasn't released the MacBook Pro updates in quite some time, which leads me to believe they intend to create pent up demand in that market and force people to switch to something very radical.
As Jobs said in a recent email "Not to worry." Timing of release of MBP and MacPro might have been due to Intel's change its processors to include GPU and nixing Nvidia with the Core ix's. There is also a shortage in production of the new chips.
I wonder if the ARM architecture is capable of running a full OS like Windows or OS X.
It isn't, because the kernels for these OSes have to be rewritten for them to work on ARM. Linux is, however... but I doubt that was the answer you wanted
There's no way Apple is going to drop Intel for the A4 in a MacBoook Pro or Desktop system.
The article basically states that Apple is trying to standardize their chipset for for big portion of their product lines. This makes sense, especially in the mobile or peripheral arena. Will they compete against Intel? Sure (Intel Atom), but not everyone is going to dump their MacBook for an iPad...I'm not.
Apple still needs commodity based, high power, muticore performane for a big chunk of business, and Intel provides a much more aggressive development schedule than Apple could ever match.
Apple business focus isn't chips, it's devices- PA Semi was a smart move, but Apple hasn't taken over the world (yet).
If you think change is coming in the future your right.
Is the App Store model more secure? Is the App Store model simpler to install Apps? Does the App Store model force competition among developers? Does it bring quality apps to the top? Does is have a freeware section?
The answer to all these questions is yes.
So for better or for worse, and I'd say for better - we'll be seeing the Mac App Store in 2011.
What's got me horrified and a lot of other people too, is that Apple is going to drop Intel processors for these A4's and we will no longer have the ability to use other operating systems and the like with our Mac's.
Worst off if they decide to lock their machines down to the App Store, restrict our freedom with our machines and force us use the iPad UI instead of windows UI.
Apple hasn't released the MacBook Pro updates in quite some time, which leads me to believe they intend to create pent up demand in that market and force people to switch to something very radical.
That's a pretty lame attempt at creating FUD! You can't come up with anything better? Seriously!
Comments
The A4 may be the fastest processor Apple's personally made, but it's still not in a position to replace Nehalem and Westmere or Sandy Bridge and other future Intel micro-architectures. x86 code reuse and the move to Intel processors has definitely seen the revival of the Mac platform or at least accelerated growth and I doubt Apple would want to risk that moving to ARM for seemingly little benefit.
This is a point that I think most tech-heads just do not seem to get. The iPad (just like the iPhone) is not a "computer" in the literal sense. It's a toaster. It is not meant to be anything related to the PC paradigm of loading whatever you want, how you want.
Go and use one of those HP-slate or whatever it is to do your thing. It has the x86 architecture already in it and everything else you folks are clamoring for..
Oh right... but you like Apple's implementation but hate that the non-x86 architecture is going to take the fun away you have with PC's??? Soo.... what's you're original issue?
The majority of iPad consumers will not give a rat's a** about this issue. It's transparent to them and rightfully should be.
This is a point that I think most tech-heads just do not seem to get. The iPad (just like the iPhone) is not a "computer" in the literal sense. It's a toaster. It is not meant to be anything related to the PC paradigm of loading whatever you want, how you want.
That's absolutely right. Apple are becoming the master of devices that can do a few things perfectly, as opposed to lots of things averagely.
Wow! That is remarkably cheaper than previously stated. The iPad may for itself in this first quarter.
PS: Why isn't SpotOn banned yet? Are his attempts at trying to derail the thread not obvious?
I suggest you take it to the "Why Hasn't AI Put It's Foot Down" thread in general discussion. Mr. H is soliciting examples of what we've all been talking about for a while. SpotOn is a particularly crafty kind of troll, spreading FUD mixed with the odd "just trying to keep it real" post mixed with only the occasional showing of his real agenda (Apple users are ignorant idiots and children).
What's got me horrified and a lot of other people too, is that Apple is going to drop Intel processors for these A4's and we will no longer have the ability to use other operating systems and the like with our Mac's.
Worst off if they decide to lock their machines down to the App Store, restrict our freedom with our machines and force us use the iPad UI instead of windows UI.
Apple hasn't released the MacBook Pro updates in quite some time, which leads me to believe they intend to create pent up demand in that market and force people to switch to something very radical.
Actually, the conspiracy theory factory of my brain started to think of things like this, but then I realized just recently it was announced steam was coming to OSX with support for the source engine (which I think the A4 processor would not handle) so why would they make that move?
I'm comfortable in saying the A4 processor will be left to things like the ipad and iphone while their actual computers will continue to use Intel. I know Jobs wants to control every aspect of the products Apple makes, but the market and overall computing environment has him by the balls in this regard.
... SpotOn is a particularly crafty kind of troll, spreading FUD mixed with the odd "just trying to keep it real" post mixed with only the occasional showing of his real agenda (Apple users are ignorant idiots and children).
Or even better. The smog in So Cal is rilly, rilly bad and that's why its moar better to work for Google.
That's my favorite.
Actually, the conspiracy theory factory of my brain started to think of things like this, but then I realized just recently it was announced steam was coming to OSX with support for the source engine (which I think the A4 processor would not handle) so why would they make that move?
I'm comfortable in saying the A4 processor will be left to things like the ipad and iphone while their actual computers will continue to use Intel. I know Jobs wants to control every aspect of the products Apple makes, but the market and overall computing environment has him by the balls in this regard.
Um, yeah. The only time Steve doesn't do pure evil is if some set of circumstances "has him by the balls." Because of the evilness.
The reason for the MacBook Pro delay is probably comprised of: A.) the fact that Apple is typically a late adopter, B.) availability of the high-end 32nm parts has been constrained, and C.) the ongoing Intel-Nvidia-FTC legal morass.
I wonder though if Apple is working on their own chipsets. Does anyone know if they have the right license to do so?
My personal hope is that the next MacBook Pro is going to use DX11 ATI Mobility HD5000 series GPUs, say the HD5750 or even the HD5830, and it's low availability of these DX11 mobile GPUs that is holding them up.
In terms of Apple creating their own chipset, I don't see much benefit. With both the PCie controller and the memory controller on the CPU itself, only the southbridge hangs off the DMI link for I/O connectivity. The TDP of the PM55/HM57 chipset is only 3.5W so even if Apple made a custom southbridge and removed excess SATA, USB or whatever I/O they don't need you aren't going to get a huge power savings. And if we are talking IGP, even if Apple had a chipset license, I don't think they have the experience to start designing their own IGP/GPUs. And if Apple were to try to license an IGP from nVidia to integrate into their own chipset, there is still the technical limitation of the DMI link not having the bandwidth to supply a graphics chip. Memory access for an IGP is also less efficient now that the memory controller isn't on the chipset but on the processor.
At best, rather than designing their own chipset, Apple should request Intel provide their existing PM55 or HM57 chipsets in a smaller package to free up motherboard space for Apple to provide a dedicated low-end GPU for models that previously had only a nVidia IGP. That would yield better performance than either Intel or nVidia IGPs.
I wonder if the ARM architecture is capable of running a full OS like Windows or OS X.
My guess is that OS X would boot on an ARM-based computer in a partly-crippled, performance-challenged manner. I'm not sure if ARM's floating point unit is up to snuff for today's more complex operations (multimedia authoring, technical/scientific calculations, etc.).
Also, ARM is a 32-bit architecture.
The computing world has largely moved on to 64-bit architecture. 32-bit is fine for mobile devices and CE appliances (like routers and DVRs).
As for Windows, the point is moot. It only runs on x86.
My guess is that OS X would boot on an ARM-based computer in a partly-cripped, performance-challenged manner. I'm not sure if ARM's floating point unit is up to snuff for today's more complex operations (multimedia authoring, technical/scientific calculations, etc.)
Well in ARM's defense the newer Cortex A8 and A9 does have a NEON SIMD instruction set that is supposed to be their answer to SSE and Altivec for multimedia acceleration and the like. Although of course, supporting things has little to do with the actual speed they run at.
Wonderful article, really enjoyed the read.
Yeah. I can't wait until the break down by iFixit tomorrow. Hopefully we'll be able to find out shortly which CPU is being used.
They got me yesterday when they posted a breakdown of what I thought was the iPad but turned out to be the Newton.
My personal hope is that the next MacBook Pro is going to use DX11 ATI Mobility HD5000 series GPUs, say the HD5750 or even the HD5830, and it's low availability of these DX11 mobile GPUs that is holding them up.
(post truncated for legibility)
Thanks for the response.
I'm just an outsider, I don't really follow the chip industry, so your points are educational for me. I believe that Apple had designed chipsets in the past, but I don't really know anything about chip design myself.
Well in ARM's defense the newer Cortex A8 and A9 does have a NEON SIMD instruction set that is supposed to be their answer to SSE and Altivec for multimedia acceleration and the like. Although of course, supporting things has little to do with the actual speed they run at.
Again, thanks for commenting. I learn something from your posts. I wish I could say that for everyone around here.
What's got me horrified and a lot of other people too, is that Apple is going to drop Intel processors for these A4's and we will no longer have the ability to use other operating systems and the like with our Mac's.
Worst off if they decide to lock their machines down to the App Store, restrict our freedom with our machines and force us use the iPad UI instead of windows UI.
Apple hasn't released the MacBook Pro updates in quite some time, which leads me to believe they intend to create pent up demand in that market and force people to switch to something very radical.
You are horrified by something you completely made up in your head? Something, by the way, that makes no business sense for Apple. What makes me really laugh is that in this nightmare of your own making you specifically singled out the MacBook PRO line, not the more casual MacBook line.
So against my better judgement (because I like seeing people suffer from self made delusions) I will attempt to calm you down:
A4s do not run at 3ghz... required to run applications of any serious size (e.g Photoshop)
A4s do not have multiple cores... standard on desktops today
A4s do not bridge with desktop GPUs... required to run displays of the sizes seen in MacBook Pros
Lastly, A4s do not run Intel software... which magnifies all the previous problems because all current software would have to run emulated! That means it would be emulated on chips 3 times slower, without the aid of multiple cores and would have to moving 10 times as many pixels on the display.
Do you watch Faux News? Seems like you and they might be a good fit.
Yeah. I can't wait until the break down by iFixit tomorrow. Hopefully we'll be able to find out shortly which CPU is being used.
They got me yesterday when they posted a breakdown of what I thought was the iPad but turned out to be the Newton.
Presumably wouldn't the A4 CPU that iFixit sees be the same as Apple has provided high-res pictures of already? I don't think they'll be able to tell much of the CPU micro-architecture from external physical views.
I am interested in seeing if RAM count has increased from 256MB in third-gen iPhone and iPod Touch models to 512MB. Combined with faster memory and maybe more RAM chips which could indicate a wider memory bus, it could explain why the iPad reportedly seems so much faster than the 600MHz to 1GHz clock speed increase would justify if it is true that the A4 is still single core Cortex A8 based. Other hardware based speed increases could be faster Flash memory even at the same capacity and increased cache sizes on the CPU which would be harder to determine.
What's got me horrified and a lot of other people too, is that Apple is going to drop Intel processors for these A4's and we will no longer have the ability to use other operating systems and the like with our Mac's.
Worst off if they decide to lock their machines down to the App Store, restrict our freedom with our machines and force us use the iPad UI instead of windows UI.
Apple hasn't released the MacBook Pro updates in quite some time, which leads me to believe they intend to create pent up demand in that market and force people to switch to something very radical.
Silly boy...
What's got me horrified and a lot of other people too, is that Apple is going to drop Intel processors for these A4's and we will no longer have the ability to use other operating systems and the like with our Mac's.
I didn't read that in the article, and it is not going to happen anytime soon. Also if you look behine you there are not a lot of people thinking that--your remark reminds me of the US Army commercial "the Army of One".
Worst off if they decide to lock their machines down to the App Store, restrict our freedom with our machines and force us use the iPad UI instead of windows UI.
Didn't read this either. OS X will still be around for several years. A good question is that Apple took out a Trade Mark on the name iSlate--a new device similar to the iPad but Core ix???
Apple hasn't released the MacBook Pro updates in quite some time, which leads me to believe they intend to create pent up demand in that market and force people to switch to something very radical.
As Jobs said in a recent email "Not to worry." Timing of release of MBP and MacPro might have been due to Intel's change its processors to include GPU and nixing Nvidia with the Core ix's. There is also a shortage in production of the new chips.
Or they did something eerily similar.
My thoughts exactly.
I wonder if the ARM architecture is capable of running a full OS like Windows or OS X.
It isn't, because the kernels for these OSes have to be rewritten for them to work on ARM. Linux is, however... but I doubt that was the answer you wanted
The article basically states that Apple is trying to standardize their chipset for for big portion of their product lines. This makes sense, especially in the mobile or peripheral arena. Will they compete against Intel? Sure (Intel Atom), but not everyone is going to dump their MacBook for an iPad...I'm not.
Apple still needs commodity based, high power, muticore performane for a big chunk of business, and Intel provides a much more aggressive development schedule than Apple could ever match.
Apple business focus isn't chips, it's devices- PA Semi was a smart move, but Apple hasn't taken over the world (yet).
Is the App Store model more secure? Is the App Store model simpler to install Apps? Does the App Store model force competition among developers? Does it bring quality apps to the top? Does is have a freeware section?
The answer to all these questions is yes.
So for better or for worse, and I'd say for better - we'll be seeing the Mac App Store in 2011.
- - - - -
And no, Apple aren't dropping Intel anytime soon.
What's got me horrified and a lot of other people too, is that Apple is going to drop Intel processors for these A4's and we will no longer have the ability to use other operating systems and the like with our Mac's.
Worst off if they decide to lock their machines down to the App Store, restrict our freedom with our machines and force us use the iPad UI instead of windows UI.
Apple hasn't released the MacBook Pro updates in quite some time, which leads me to believe they intend to create pent up demand in that market and force people to switch to something very radical.
That's a pretty lame attempt at creating FUD! You can't come up with anything better? Seriously!