A big bloke in black carrying a scythe
Let's go way off topic, amigos.....As a newspaper journalist, The Blue Meanie comes into (indirect) contact with death, both sudden (car wrecks, etc) and expected (disease, etc), more often than he would like. And that can't help but set a bloke thinking. So, O estimable fellow Appleinsiderers, my questions to you are:
A) Is there an afterlife?
&
And if so, does it depend on subscription to dogma and fixed religious belief?
The Blue Meanie's answers would be:
A) Yes
No, absolutely not
PS - My copy of iTunes just started playing "Don't Fear The Reaper" <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />
A) Is there an afterlife?
&
And if so, does it depend on subscription to dogma and fixed religious belief?The Blue Meanie's answers would be:
A) Yes
No, absolutely not PS - My copy of iTunes just started playing "Don't Fear The Reaper" <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[Surprised]" />
Comments
I figure, I can't know about the afterlife in this life, so why worry about it? Might as well live this life to the fullest, and whatever happens happens
J :cool:
<strong>A) No. Sorry but when you die you die and that's it. Worm food.
J :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>
I hope that was sarcasm..otherwise what good would it do to be living? I couldn't imagine living my life so that at the end That's it! nothing else.
Sorry, I just disagree with you. I would like to hope that there IS something after death.
As for B. well..I hope not too..but it gets me to thinking sometimes
"You're asking probably the most difficult of all questions. Some see it as a changing into an indestructable form, forever unchanging. They believe that the purpose of the entire universe is to then maintain that form in an Earth-like garden which will give delight and pleasure through all eternity. On the other hand, there are those who hold to the idea of our blinking into nothingness *snap* with all of our experiences and hopes and dreams merely a delusion.
"Considering the marvelous complexity of the universe, its clockwork perfection, its balances of of this against that, matter, energy, gravitation, time, dimension, I believe that our existence must be more than either of these philosophies, that what we are goes beyond Euclydian or other practical measuring systems and that our existence is part of a reality beyond what we understand now as reality."
In other words... yo no sé. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
[ 03-09-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
<strong>
I hope that was sarcasm..otherwise what good would it do to be living? I couldn't imagine living my life so that at the end That's it! nothing else.
Sorry, I just disagree with you. I would like to hope that there IS something after death.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
It wasn't sarcasm. I'd like to think that when my life ends it will end full of great memories. Too many people get hung up concentrating on what'll happen when they die rather than what they can do to make LIFE more interesting.
And don't apologise for disagreeing. It's healthy to have different opinions. Life would be pretty boring otherwise.
J :cool:
I'm with Jamie. You have one lifetime, make the most of it.<hr></blockquote>
I agree with the "make the most of it" part.
As for Blue Meanie's questions:
A.) Yes.
B.) Does it depend on a subscription to a particular religious belief? Of course not. Your existence doesn't require my belief in you. Why should God's? Something either is or it isn't. If my belief is misplaced, it won't matter a bit how hard I believe. And if it's not, the unbelief of another isn't going to undo anything.
<strong>A) Is there an afterlife?
&
B: Given my answer to A, I sure hope not.
<strong>
I agree with the "make the most of it" part.
As for Blue Meanie's questions:
A.) Yes.
B.) Does it depend on a subscription to a particular religious belief? Of course not. Your existence doesn't require my belief in you. Why should God's? Something either is or it isn't. If my belief is misplaced, it won't matter a bit how hard I believe. And if it's not, the unbelief of another isn't going to undo anything.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well spotted, I don't think I worded that as well as I could have done. What I meant by question B was: does a good result in the afterlife depend on subscription to a particular religious belief?
2. How could it? How would anyone know which religion was the correct one?.
I have raised this point several times in discussions here*. If you're a Christian and it transpires that when you die, Allah really was the GOD (Im not good at technicalities, just concepts), then are you ****ed?
Now, both Christians and whatever faith believes in Allah, genuinely believe they speak/get direction from their 'figurehead'. They make personal sacrifices all their life in the persuit of their faith. Someone has to be wrong? so whats the point?
I believe faiths were formed by primitive man to try to make sense of unexplained factors of human life. We'd all laugh now if someone started a raindance and they really believed it would rain as much as a christian believes he talks to jesus. But people used to do this before they discovered how rain really formed. They used to worship the Sun God. Their piers would tell them that if they did not do it, then they would die, and go to some hell like place. All stupidity now, but there are many parallels with modern religions.
Religion is created to keep order amongst the common masses. Crowd control. Do you really think that Bush means God bless us, when he sends 10k troops into Afganistan? Really, its just propaganda. He ond others have access to some of the greatest minds/technology in the world. There are people who have seen things that make 'praying to Jesus' seem just as stupid as praying to the sungod. But they can't tell us. Obviously because it would cause a revolt in middle America.
People, your life has no more a significance than a common earth worm. The fact that we have evolved into semi-intelligent beings is really a moot point. At the end of the day, we're all here just to ****, to keep the species alive. Now, it would be rediculious not to use our intelligence, to create something better of the world or ourselves.
After all, if we didn't have this intelligence, we literally would just eat, sleep and procreate. We wouldn't worry ourselves with worshipping God, because we have no understanding of the concept.
Accept, that were all here for a very short time, it means nothing in the big picture of things, so make the most of yourselves while it lasts.
Sadly, I'd like to believe there was something more, I really wish there was GOD, but im a smart guy, I've thought about this alot, and there is no way that there ever could be.
*Edit, and no-ones ever given me anything like an legitimate answer
[ 03-09-2002: Message edited by: MarcUK ]</p>
<strong>
People, your life has no more a significance than a common earth worm. The fact that we have evolved into semi-intelligent beings is really a moot point... Now, it would be rediculious not to use our intelligence, to create something better of the world or ourselves. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Why? Given your worldview this doesn't make very much sense.
Neither is testable. Some will be tempted into a 'simplest explanation' route. It doesn't really apply here. It is not 'simpler' to say that there is no God. This kind of negative is untestable, as useless as the proposition, there is a God. This is not like testing a negative as, say, "Prove there is no Santa Clause." The causal foundation of a God question (of our science and our logic) suggests the very notion of God to us. I may be faulty, but we can no better test either side.
We're not talking about the fantastical permutations in the minds of the devout. That is, yes, a concept deployed as much to allay fears as to explain anything. God may not have any need, or concern, or perceptible connection with us. We may be irrelevant. We may not be. We do not know.
An 'impressive design' or 'glorious accident' exists. I don't think it would be meaningless either way for us to live 'it' at least once. And in either case wasting 'it' ought to be understood as a sin, as far as we understand sin.
This is such a difficult question because our faculties are generally not up to the task, and our emotions cheat us -- even in the cases where our intellect is nearly competent. The more I think about it, the more I think that both these answers of a god question are equally dishonest about their general motivations.
B. Well, since there are many different religions who claim that they are the only true one, and that all others burn in eternal torment. It is logical to assume that everybody will suffer eternally. Hell must be one large place!
A) yes
Ok, maybe that was a little hard.
<strong>B. Well, since there are many different religions who claim that they are the only true one, and that all others burn in eternal torment. It is logical to assume that everybody will suffer eternally. Hell must be one large place!
There are many different religions. And many teach that they are the one true religion. Some people look at all the religions in the world and think, what a scam. And others (like myself) feel that there is a God, and there is an afterlife. Being that we see as through a mirror only dimly it is hard for some to believe that anyone can "know" the truth.
And the size of heaven and hell is irrelevant. Either one will be big enough to handle whoever chooses which one. Yes I said chooses.
<strong>
B. Well, since there are many different religions who claim that they are the only true one, and that all others burn in eternal torment. It is logical to assume that everybody will suffer eternally. Hell must be one large place!
Well, still no answers to my previous questions, come on someone must be able to debate this properly.
And I'll add an argument to the side in favour of pro-God.
Q. Could it be that whatever religion/faith we subscribe too, we will be judged by 'the Real God' as too how we have conducted our lives/faith, based upon our limited flawed understanding of the issue. He/she will look upon our devotion to the concept rather than the specific figurehead we worship. Therefore if we lead 'good' lives, whatever religion, we may all go to heaven.
Q2. in my case, as I follow no figurehead, I would still go to heaven, because I lead a 'good' life, after all, my rejection of a figurehead, is no greater a flawed decision, than choosing between Jesus/Allah/your cat, because they are all wrong choices.
<strong>
Why? Given your worldview this doesn't make very much sense.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I should have added, that although 'human life' has no more significance than an earthworm 'in the big picture', the fact that we have 'intelligence' means we can choose to 'create' a sytle of life for ourselves, good or bad. As we have this intelligence, we start to think that we are 'more significant' than other species, and we can think about dying before the event, we don't like this thought, so we create scenarios where dying is equated with good thought. I suspect all other creatures, dont think about dying, other than the natural 'fight or flight' situations when they're directly 'under attack', certainly they do not worship Gods. But as humans, our emotional need to connect something positive with dying, has given us the religious concept, which allows us to deal with these thoughts. If you can put aside your emotions and think unbiasedly, you can easily come to the conlusion that there is no God, your life is no more 'significant' than earthworm, and when you die, that really is the end. Back to the Earth you came from.
As to the reason "WHY" should we choose to create something better for ourselves, given my view of things. The answer is purely selfish. Intelligence has given us the ability to think. Once you start thinking, you become greedy. You start to 'want' The means to fullfilling this need, is to do some work. whether this transpires as 'positive' work, or 'negative' work, depends upon many things. But probably the biggest, is social acceptance, of which the underlying motivation, is again to fulfill a 'selfish' need. I know it all sounds rather grim, but the truth does hurt. Once you accept that this may be all there is, you can start to use your intelligence, to fullfill your needs, but you can also use it to fullfill other peoples needs, but who can honestly say, that if you do someone a good turn, that it doesn't make you feel good aswell, even if there are 'bad' consequences for yourself. Afterall, we know that 'suffering a consequence' to help someone else, gives us 'respect' from another social group, which in a way, can help to benefit a self fueled need.
[ 03-10-2002: Message edited by: MarcUK ]</p>
<strong>I defer my response to Captain Jean Luc Picard, who puts it quite elegantly:
"You're asking probably the most difficult of all questions. Some see it as a changing into an indestructable form, forever unchanging. They believe that the purpose of the entire universe is to then maintain that form in an Earth-like garden which will give delight and pleasure through all eternity. On the other hand, there are those who hold to the idea of our blinking into nothingness *snap* with all of our experiences and hopes and dreams merely a delusion.
"Considering the marvelous complexity of the universe, its clockwork perfection, its balances of of this against that, matter, energy, gravitation, time, dimension, I believe that our existence must be more than either of these philosophies, that what we are goes beyond Euclydian or other practical measuring systems and that our existence is part of a reality beyond what we understand now as reality."
In other words... yo no sé. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
[ 03-09-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Which episode was that in? It?s a fair few years since I watched any ?ST: The Next Generation?, so my memories are a little hazy. I do remember liking it though.
Simplistic, but not without merit.
<strong>A) No. Sorry but when you die you die and that's it. Worm food.
J :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>
If The Blue Meanie can get a little personal for a second, Jamie, have you ever lost anyone close to you ? I mean a friend or family member (not including grandparents)? If the answer is yes, then I?m surprised by your use of such glib phrases as ?worm food?.