Only 2007? Flash has been awful for a lot longer than that Directly related to the iPhone sure 2007 works.
In regards to it being a resource hog and crash prone, sure, but I was focusing on why it shouldn't be on a pocketable ARM-based device with very limited performance and battery life, which seems to be the focus on Steve's letter.
Yeah, have you ever heard of Now Playing? Pocket Flicks?
The developer is Metasyntactic. He posted numerous times in the thread. [I read all of them. He has a issue from the beginning. Anybody that continues to defy the SDK as much as he does and gets a couple of dozen rejections because of it just doesn't get it.]
Shamyl Zakariya, Brad Oliver, fitten, Ian Wood are all developers as well (or claim to be and I have no reason to believe otherwise). [Better check again]
Did you read the thread?
In all of that, there is no indication of a mass migration to other platforms. You want to play hardball, why the hell should anybody have to use softball rules just because you can't run the extra distance between bases.
I've had ClickToFlash installed for quite a while now, and I see that most of the time the only thing I seem to be missing are the numerous ads on the majority of sites.
As to the Adobe CEO's response, I find some of his comments disingenuous - finding Job's comments "amusing" and not really addressing Steve's comments. How, exactly, is Flash not closed? I have to buy a program for hundreds of dollars from Adobe to work with it. I can use any text editor for HTML. Remember we are discussing issues/languages with the web.
While Steve is confident in his company, this guy just sounds arrogant. There is a difference.
This was my favorite comment:
Quote:
Speaking about Mr. Jobs's assertion that Adobe is the No. 1 cause of Mac crashes, Mr. Narayan says if Adobe crashes Apple, that actually has something "to do with the Apple operating system."
I'd like to hear him explain the logic behind that reply
In all of that, there is no indication of a mass migration to other platforms.
Nice straw man.
Do you remember what I said in post 178?
Let me refresh your memory: ":Now developers aren't vowing to leave in mass but its pretty obvious that there's a lot of discomfort associated with the new SDK agreement."
The discomfort and ill feelings that the new SDK agreement is real. It may amount to nothing. But it is unnecessary, IMO. It doesn't ensure that iPhone apps are 'good'. It only makes it difficult for developers to port apps to other platforms and takes a tools away from them.
Let me refresh your memory: ":Now developers aren't vowing to leave in mass but its pretty obvious that there's a lot of discomfort associated with the new SDK agreement."
The discomfort and ill feelings that the new SDK agreement is real. It may amount to nothing. But it is unnecessary, IMO. It doesn't ensure that iPhone apps are 'good'. It only makes it difficult for developers to port apps to other platforms and takes a tools away from them.
I think most of the "discomfort" is with developers who planned to avoid developing in Objective-C. They're uncomfortable because their plans to ride the iPhone gravy train are in confusion.
You make it sound like the everyone's position was formed because of this letter when the Steve's comments are just reinforcing what most of us have been saying about Flash since 2007.
I've no gripe with keeping Flash off the iPhone.
I simply contend that the new SDK agreement, limiting the way apps are developed, is wrong. Some tools which are used to develop good iPhone apps are excluded which may lead to some good apps being rejected.
Currently release date appears to be June, so it is most likely already being produced in advance of release. I'd say it is out of the prototype phase. Specs have been previously leaked from a presentation HP gave internally.
I never said it could be used in a present tense, I was just trying to correct your statement about it's expected battery life. Given that a lot of devices seem to give 80% of the rated lifetime, that would mean 4-5 hours.
As far as I'm concerned, if a ship date hasn't been at least publicly confirmed, then it's still in the realm of "speculation" and "could be". Heck, even your first paragraph above was caveated with "appears to be", "most likely", and "I'd say". These qualitative assertions of probability may be good enough for YOU, but I've seen too many slipping ship dates in the tech world - not to mention unexpected plug pulls - to put much credence in this kind of data. FWIW, I'm similarly skeptical of "leaks", "rumors", and "specs" related to unannounced Apple products as well. That even includes the Gizmodo "iPhone prototype"... although I must confess that the circumstances surrounding that particular story are far more compelling than your standard Apple scoop. :-)
Bottom line: whatever scarce info you can currently point to about the HP Slate doesn't really go very far in terms of proving the point that I was responding to, namely that Flash works just fine on the HP Slate without draining its battery. We really don't know that. There are plenty of existing devices that we can test on though. So why bother appealing to a "leak"?
I simply contend that the new SDK agreement, limiting the way apps are developed, is wrong. Some tools which are used to develop good iPhone apps are excluded which may lead to some good apps being rejected.
The reasons for not requiring devs to use Xcode makes sense. Apple has been done this road before and has lost considerably because of it. While it short term it may seem bad the long term is good for consumers.
Bottom line: whatever scarce info you can currently point to about the HP Slate doesn't really go very far in terms of proving the point that I was responding to, namely that Flash works just fine on the HP Slate without draining its battery. We really don't know that. There are plenty of existing devices that we can test on though. So why bother appealing to a "leak"?
With a device that doesn't exist you can make whatever claim you like and no one can refute it.
I am a web designer, emphasis on "designer" not programmer. I have used Flash, but not any more. it is a pain to keep up with the Flash Player changes and support people on older computers that don't have the latest Flash Player and/or can't even run it. I have been hired many times to convert Flash websites to html/CSS sites (and well before this all came to a head, before the iPhone was even released) This is because Flash embedded content cannot be searched by search engines and all of my clients want good SEO results.
The little bit of Flash I had left in my sites that were videos and slideshows have all been replaced using Javascript and html5, my video is either embedded YouTube or html5 with a Flash fallback for browsers not ready for html5.
It took a little time, but it was pretty painless and I don't have to mess with the Flash Player which I think is complete junk, ALWAYS have hated it and now I am pretty much free of it!! (BTW I still use the Flash program for animation but export as a .mov file not a .swf file) So, if I can do it and I am not even a programmer, it can't be that hard to switch if needed. All of the big media sites have and I am sure this trend will continue. It is not going to take five years for html5 to catch on as some people say, Microsoft even said they will support it, so it will be faster than you think.
My clients don't care what technology I use to make their sites, they want them to work period. They want them to work with SEO techniques AND on the iPad et all. Html5 and javascript (which BTW, works already in current html standards) addresses both issues with no problem, the ONLY thing that IS a problem IS FLASH. Well, not on my websites, not any more.
And I do agree it is Adobe's Flash that is proprietary! How can it not be? I have heard there are other programs to make Flash files, but I personally don't know what they are (at least not for the Mac platform) or how well they run. How much is the upgrade for the current CS5??? Quite a bit, and they put more Flash into Indesign of all things! No thanks, I just finally started using CS4, not going to pay any more right now thank you very much.
Frankly, I don't give a shit about flash one way or the other, I just want functional, streamlined and less crash happy versions of the Creative Suite. I know we are all upset about having to switch over video players, but come on Adobe! Use your head!
Throw a great and intuitive HTML5 building section into dreamweaver OR 'flash' and market the shit outta it. The 'improvements' in photoshop, indesign and illustrator have been so modest over the last three iterations that you MUST have some time on your hands. Speaking of which, why not give me full 64 bit support across the line while you are at it? Turns out that InDesign slows down a bit when you have a 100+ page document, text formatting STILL can't be simply copied and pasted from Illustrator to InDesign, etc. There is SO MUCH WORK to be done on your flagship products, so its not like there's nothing for you to do when flash exits the picture. Don't worry, you won't be bored! Thanks Adoples!
You have yet to demonstrate that you even understand the actual issue with third party SDKs and how paralyzing they can be to platform momentum. So your opinion is of questionable authority.
What I do understand is that fine iPhone apps will no longer be in compliance with Apple's SDK.
Then they may not exist on the iPhone platform.
But I guess we can count on you to write new ones to replace them. Right?
After all you're rilly, rilly knowledgeable and your 'opinion' is the one that matters most. Right?
What I do understand is that fine iPhone apps will no longer be in compliance with Apple's SDK.
According to Adobe's CEO, about 100 out of 200,000. You are being overly dramatic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac
Then they may not exist on the iPhone platform.
If they really are that good, they'll be back. The AppStore is the biggest game in town. Now you are being naive.
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac
But I guess we can count on you to write new ones to replace them. Right?
If the apps are really that good, then there is a market for them, and the developer will rewrite them using the Apple supported SDK. Because it really is that simple to use. Suggesting that I write them is just you being snarky again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by backtomac
After all you're rilly, rilly knowledgeable and your 'opinion' is the one that matters most. Right?
More than YOURS, apparently. You still aren't speaking from any knowledge. Look at the three first sentences I responded to:
(1) overly dramatic
(2) naive
(3) snarky
When you really want to score in this debate, bring your "A" game.
This may have already been said but, at first glance the two most important complaints of Adobe's Flash is it is not modern and a resource hog...
...but I see it as Jobs has spent his life 'corralling' incompetant programmers from producing substandard software, apps, interfaces, etc.
All one has to do and pickup any camera, smart phone, cable box, digital picture frame, flat screen TV, stand alone GPS unit or any electronic device not made by Apple and 'navigate' through their crappy, clunky and clumsy SW. It's Sh*te.
Stevo does not want his Apple platform infected with inferior code! Simple as that!
Comments
Only 2007? Flash has been awful for a lot longer than that
In regards to it being a resource hog and crash prone, sure, but I was focusing on why it shouldn't be on a pocketable ARM-based device with very limited performance and battery life, which seems to be the focus on Steve's letter.
Yeah, have you ever heard of Now Playing? Pocket Flicks?
The developer is Metasyntactic. He posted numerous times in the thread. [I read all of them. He has a issue from the beginning. Anybody that continues to defy the SDK as much as he does and gets a couple of dozen rejections because of it just doesn't get it.]
Shamyl Zakariya, Brad Oliver, fitten, Ian Wood are all developers as well (or claim to be and I have no reason to believe otherwise). [Better check again]
Did you read the thread?
In all of that, there is no indication of a mass migration to other platforms. You want to play hardball, why the hell should anybody have to use softball rules just because you can't run the extra distance between bases.
Spell reality out in black and white and they still prefer to believe tosh.
As to the Adobe CEO's response, I find some of his comments disingenuous - finding Job's comments "amusing" and not really addressing Steve's comments. How, exactly, is Flash not closed? I have to buy a program for hundreds of dollars from Adobe to work with it. I can use any text editor for HTML. Remember we are discussing issues/languages with the web.
I would like everyone to read Adobe's CEO response to this:
http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2010/04/...ith-adobe-ceo/
While Steve is confident in his company, this guy just sounds arrogant. There is a difference.
This was my favorite comment:
Speaking about Mr. Jobs's assertion that Adobe is the No. 1 cause of Mac crashes, Mr. Narayan says if Adobe crashes Apple, that actually has something "to do with the Apple operating system."
I'd like to hear him explain the logic behind that reply
In all of that, there is no indication of a mass migration to other platforms.
Nice straw man.
Do you remember what I said in post 178?
Let me refresh your memory: ":Now developers aren't vowing to leave in mass but its pretty obvious that there's a lot of discomfort associated with the new SDK agreement."
The discomfort and ill feelings that the new SDK agreement is real. It may amount to nothing. But it is unnecessary, IMO. It doesn't ensure that iPhone apps are 'good'. It only makes it difficult for developers to port apps to other platforms and takes a tools away from them.
Nice straw man.
Do you remember what I said in post 178?
Let me refresh your memory: ":Now developers aren't vowing to leave in mass but its pretty obvious that there's a lot of discomfort associated with the new SDK agreement."
The discomfort and ill feelings that the new SDK agreement is real. It may amount to nothing. But it is unnecessary, IMO. It doesn't ensure that iPhone apps are 'good'. It only makes it difficult for developers to port apps to other platforms and takes a tools away from them.
I think most of the "discomfort" is with developers who planned to avoid developing in Objective-C. They're uncomfortable because their plans to ride the iPhone gravy train are in confusion.
You make it sound like the everyone's position was formed because of this letter when the Steve's comments are just reinforcing what most of us have been saying about Flash since 2007.
I've no gripe with keeping Flash off the iPhone.
I simply contend that the new SDK agreement, limiting the way apps are developed, is wrong. Some tools which are used to develop good iPhone apps are excluded which may lead to some good apps being rejected.
Currently release date appears to be June, so it is most likely already being produced in advance of release. I'd say it is out of the prototype phase. Specs have been previously leaked from a presentation HP gave internally.
http://www.devicemag.com/2010/04/06/...e-date-leaked/
I never said it could be used in a present tense, I was just trying to correct your statement about it's expected battery life. Given that a lot of devices seem to give 80% of the rated lifetime, that would mean 4-5 hours.
As far as I'm concerned, if a ship date hasn't been at least publicly confirmed, then it's still in the realm of "speculation" and "could be". Heck, even your first paragraph above was caveated with "appears to be", "most likely", and "I'd say". These qualitative assertions of probability may be good enough for YOU, but I've seen too many slipping ship dates in the tech world - not to mention unexpected plug pulls - to put much credence in this kind of data. FWIW, I'm similarly skeptical of "leaks", "rumors", and "specs" related to unannounced Apple products as well. That even includes the Gizmodo "iPhone prototype"... although I must confess that the circumstances surrounding that particular story are far more compelling than your standard Apple scoop. :-)
Bottom line: whatever scarce info you can currently point to about the HP Slate doesn't really go very far in terms of proving the point that I was responding to, namely that Flash works just fine on the HP Slate without draining its battery. We really don't know that. There are plenty of existing devices that we can test on though. So why bother appealing to a "leak"?
Thompson
I've no gripe with keeping Flash off the iPhone.
I simply contend that the new SDK agreement, limiting the way apps are developed, is wrong. Some tools which are used to develop good iPhone apps are excluded which may lead to some good apps being rejected.
The reasons for not requiring devs to use Xcode makes sense. Apple has been done this road before and has lost considerably because of it. While it short term it may seem bad the long term is good for consumers.
Bottom line: whatever scarce info you can currently point to about the HP Slate doesn't really go very far in terms of proving the point that I was responding to, namely that Flash works just fine on the HP Slate without draining its battery. We really don't know that. There are plenty of existing devices that we can test on though. So why bother appealing to a "leak"?
With a device that doesn't exist you can make whatever claim you like and no one can refute it.
The letter published by Steve Jobs looked fine to me. He laid out some decent arguments for not using flash.
I did not see him "slam: Adobe.
Maybe you should publish this article under a different title?
JDS
The little bit of Flash I had left in my sites that were videos and slideshows have all been replaced using Javascript and html5, my video is either embedded YouTube or html5 with a Flash fallback for browsers not ready for html5.
It took a little time, but it was pretty painless and I don't have to mess with the Flash Player which I think is complete junk, ALWAYS have hated it and now I am pretty much free of it!! (BTW I still use the Flash program for animation but export as a .mov file not a .swf file) So, if I can do it and I am not even a programmer, it can't be that hard to switch if needed. All of the big media sites have and I am sure this trend will continue. It is not going to take five years for html5 to catch on as some people say, Microsoft even said they will support it, so it will be faster than you think.
My clients don't care what technology I use to make their sites, they want them to work period. They want them to work with SEO techniques AND on the iPad et all. Html5 and javascript (which BTW, works already in current html standards) addresses both issues with no problem, the ONLY thing that IS a problem IS FLASH. Well, not on my websites, not any more.
And I do agree it is Adobe's Flash that is proprietary! How can it not be? I have heard there are other programs to make Flash files, but I personally don't know what they are (at least not for the Mac platform) or how well they run. How much is the upgrade for the current CS5??? Quite a bit, and they put more Flash into Indesign of all things! No thanks, I just finally started using CS4, not going to pay any more right now thank you very much.
Frankly, I don't give a shit about flash one way or the other, I just want functional, streamlined and less crash happy versions of the Creative Suite. I know we are all upset about having to switch over video players, but come on Adobe! Use your head!
Throw a great and intuitive HTML5 building section into dreamweaver OR 'flash' and market the shit outta it. The 'improvements' in photoshop, indesign and illustrator have been so modest over the last three iterations that you MUST have some time on your hands. Speaking of which, why not give me full 64 bit support across the line while you are at it? Turns out that InDesign slows down a bit when you have a 100+ page document, text formatting STILL can't be simply copied and pasted from Illustrator to InDesign, etc. There is SO MUCH WORK to be done on your flagship products, so its not like there's nothing for you to do when flash exits the picture. Don't worry, you won't be bored! Thanks Adoples!
You have yet to demonstrate that you even understand the actual issue with third party SDKs and how paralyzing they can be to platform momentum. So your opinion is of questionable authority.
What I do understand is that fine iPhone apps will no longer be in compliance with Apple's SDK.
Then they may not exist on the iPhone platform.
But I guess we can count on you to write new ones to replace them. Right?
After all you're rilly, rilly knowledgeable and your 'opinion' is the one that matters most. Right?
Wow, dude, way to carry the standard for Flash! I'm sure Lee Brimelow is brimming with pride.
You forgot about all the tools to autogenerate Flash banner ads.
For the record, we all think Flash still sucks. And nobody cares that you are Flash's biggest fan. Just sayin'...
I'm not a fan. It sucks. It just sucks less than anything else out there, including your attempt at posting flame bait.
You believe Flash is open? Really?
You think any of the Flash phones are going to have anything approaching acceptable battery life for a phone? Really?
my iphone gets horrible battery life. Whatever you're attempting to imply, it's failing.
What I do understand is that fine iPhone apps will no longer be in compliance with Apple's SDK.
According to Adobe's CEO, about 100 out of 200,000. You are being overly dramatic.
Then they may not exist on the iPhone platform.
If they really are that good, they'll be back. The AppStore is the biggest game in town. Now you are being naive.
But I guess we can count on you to write new ones to replace them. Right?
If the apps are really that good, then there is a market for them, and the developer will rewrite them using the Apple supported SDK. Because it really is that simple to use. Suggesting that I write them is just you being snarky again.
After all you're rilly, rilly knowledgeable and your 'opinion' is the one that matters most. Right?
More than YOURS, apparently. You still aren't speaking from any knowledge. Look at the three first sentences I responded to:
(1) overly dramatic
(2) naive
(3) snarky
When you really want to score in this debate, bring your "A" game.
Thompson
...but I see it as Jobs has spent his life 'corralling' incompetant programmers from producing substandard software, apps, interfaces, etc.
All one has to do and pickup any camera, smart phone, cable box, digital picture frame, flat screen TV, stand alone GPS unit or any electronic device not made by Apple and 'navigate' through their crappy, clunky and clumsy SW. It's Sh*te.
Stevo does not want his Apple platform infected with inferior code! Simple as that!