I'm sure companies that companies buying WinPCs every 2-3 years must get big tax breaks, and you can write-off all that hardware through depreciation, etc.
Are there tax benefits/penalties for the employer/employee with this arrangement?
I wonder why the requirement for Snow Leopard and not just Leopard.
It can't be THAT much different for their IT department to support.
I imagine that it's probably to reduce the number of software variations they have to support. Variations in hardware generally don't matter at all as long as it meets the minimum requirements.
Quote:
Originally Posted by veblen
I'm sure you haven't had any issues. Your probably pretty computer savvy. I can see that for a small company. Things get more difficult as organizations grow larger. 10-15 different computer setups is no big deal. When you start talking about 1000's things get more difficult. People end up having different versions of software. This makes it incredibly difficult to patch for security and bug fixes. People start buying rogue software that works for themselves but not for the company as a whole. People end up splintering off and you end up with 15 solutions for a simple problem. People purchase software and leave with noone else knowing what tools they've been using because they are non-standard. I'm a big fan of individualized access, but company wide, wow.
The article doesn't link to any further detail, but the article only mentions hardware and MS Office other than that, you might be required to use company software.
Quote:
Originally Posted by screamingfist
so buy your own but we will tell you what you can buy. go F off. i am not fooled. another ploy to get you to pay for the privilege to work for you.
In many cases, it is probably a computer that the employee already owns. A Mac that qualifies is going to be almost any but the oldest Intel Macs, starting about mid-2006. My MBP is 3 years old and qualifies, save for a $30 OS upgrade I haven't needed yet.
I'm not totally unfamiliar with the employee having to have their own tools, I understand that it's par for the course for auto & large truck mechanics. But here, it's just an option, you can just continue using company provided hardware.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
I actually have some experience with KraftCo from my days at IBM. Then they were a very forward-looking company pursuing the latest technology (CICS and DL/I at that time).
What am curious about is: Will they allow the iPad? My best guess is YES!
Not listed as a qualified computer (yet). It may need specific apps, the article specifically mentiones MS Office.
Why Windows 7 Ultimate? Professional should be just fine. The only things Ultimate offers over professional is a language pack and BitLocker. They want the encryption part I guess? That is the only thing I can think of.
Apparently so, per the article, emphasis mine:
Quote:
Participating employees must comply with company policies regarding software, security and data requirements, which includes installing Microsoft Office and appropriate anti-virus software and turning on disk encryption.
IT department HATE the Mac . If whole company go mac they will have nothing else to do and LOSE THEIR JOB!
IT department loves babysitting retarded computers that do not even run by themselves, let alone doing anything useful.
I don't know what IT attitudes on Macs really are on the whole, but that impression seems to be a bit of a myth. I've known IT workers that hate Microsoft but still weren't Mac users, one in particular recounted a litany of Exchange problems, or dealing with MS support that simply suggest reinstalling. Yes, it's technically work, but I don't think the whole profession is choosing to go the "make work" route, because it's NOT easy work, it can be very frustrating, especially if something that seems completely unrelated to the problem at hand is causing the problem.
Macs do need some maintenance, and sometimes things go wrong. It's less work, but hardly no work. And it too can be frustrating at times.
Technically, what you stated is correct to avoid discrimination. The program though was initiated to accommodate Mac users in a Wintel-based environment. Mac users were the ones who lobbied to have this option adopted.
One possible reason. There is a subsidy if you opt for this program. You have to buy more recent Mac Intel-based computers (if you do not have one yet). You are not be able to use your older Mac computers and pocket the subsidy provided. Just as important, using one OS, Snow Leopard, will minimize versions of softwares maintained in central servers.
If an employee opts for the program, the subsidy usually includes that the employee takes care of the cost of technical support -- not use internal IT services and personnel.
There is a reason why companies have structured the program to include the cost for technical support in the subsidy provided.
The option to provide your own computer will work mainly for those employees who are tech-savvy enough to be able to deal with the usual day-to-day technical issues encountered, and have the foresight to buy an Apple Care, if practical, to deal with for more critical and difficult issues.
It is one thing to seek the support of internal IT in case of emergency. I doubt very much that the company will allow a clueless employee to participate in the program in the future. The company may even impose immediate cessation to participate in the program, if the employee turns up to the "technically-impaired" or clueless.
This is where the more widespread adoption of the iPhone and potentially the iPad, as well as the Apple Store (and perhaps Best Buy "Apple Store") may help in more companies becoming more receptive to Mac computers.
Moreover, unlike in the past, Apple is now paying more attention to the needs of the enterprise, and there are companies, providing solution, e.g., the Citrix ecosystem model, that will allow Apple mobile computing devices to integrate with enterprise servers.
I found out also that Apple Stores now have "business liaisons" to assist people asking for business solutions. However, the one I talked to in the Boylston Apple Store in Boston, while very cooperative. has very limited expertise in biomedical applications though.
Apple should provide more support to local small businesses that offer Apple-centric solutions to address the needs of specific businesses and fields.
Another Memo circulating in the Kingdom about 1,000 years ago
.
"To all of you Bean Counters who now wish to use that Hindu-Arabic Base 10 System - OK. But you'll need to do your own calculations and provide your own parchments. The Kingdom will continue to use Roman Numerals for all Official Bean Counting, and you're on your own if you Think Different."
So, am I getting this right? It's okay, only if you provide the Mac? No thanks... In other words, they want to cut IT costs by you providing your own support for you own computer, and they no longer have to provide you with the computer to do your job. So, in essence, you just got more work and a pay cut, because you're providing your own $1000 to $2500 computer. What a bargain! Is Windows really that bad that you would want to do something like this? Not for me...
IT department HATE the Mac . If whole company go mac they will have nothing else to do and LOSE THEIR JOB!
IT department loves babysitting retarded computers that do not even run by themselves, let alone doing anything useful.
I love my Macs and I greatly prefer them to PCs, but I think your comments have nothing to do with reality. My son-in-law is a permanent tech support consultant for a media production company that has a (practically) all Mac environment and he is always busy. (If Macs worked as well as they're reputed to, he wouldn't have a very well-paying job.) There is plenty that goes wrong either with the Macs or with the overall network/server environment. In fact, he got home at 3 am this morning after staying to fix whatever had gone wrong yesterday. One of the biggest problems in the Macs themselves are drive failures. His feeling (and he loves his Macs also) is that the last quality Macs were the G4 "Sawtooth" towers from almost 10 years ago.
And that's aside from the usual support issues, like restoring computers that have crashed, data backup issues, etc.
It's far different using a Mac at home than using a Mac in an office environment and support is definitely still needed.
And while I do hate PCs, they run Word, Excel, Powerpoint, IE 8 (or Safari) and Outlook and that's what probably 90% of all employees need. In addition, most large companies will have some proprietary programs for accounting and finance and those (especially if they're client-server) might not run on the Mac OS at all. And even if they're cloud-based applications, if they're dot.net type apps that use off the shelf tools from companies like Infragistics, they might not work on a Mac even though they're web based. So to say that PCs do nothing useful is immature idiocy.
Maybe. I worked in a Dell office, and purchased my own Mac. Did my own support, etc, and they agreed to purchase applecare to cover any damage.
Does AppleCare cover damage? It does cover technical support though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ruel24
What a bargain! Is Windows really that bad that you would want to do something like this? Not for me...
I agree with you points but I'd happily take a contribution towards a Mac I get to use at home too and one which will not frustrate the hell out of me like the Dells w/WinXP do at the moment. I only use MS Office and the odd database but these things are unsably slow.
You bring in a computer of your choice which complies with the company's specs. The company even offers you a stipend to help defray the cost of your personal computer.
Obviously, like other Bring Your Own Computer (BYOC) programs which even Microsoft offers its employees, must be able to us 'Desktop Virtualization' to deliver applications and desktops environments to unmanaged devices.
The article's headline is Newspeak. There will be no "new support" for Macs, it's all about "less support" from IT. This is not a bad thing, it's merely a long-overdue evolution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZorrowQc
That would certainly keep the IT department busy...
I doubt it. IT support is going to diminish.
Kraft is an enormous company, with enormous IT expenses. It's also a hugely successful company. They haven't grown to be that way without scrutinizing every business decision. They would not initiate a policy like this without serious consideration.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgc0202
Obviously, this program is a lobby usually initiated by Mac users.
Make no mistake, Kraft is merely succumbing to the inevitable... given a choice, people will choose Apple. There's no stopping the momentum. A less obvious reason is hidden in their policy: if you use a Mac, you're on your own. In other words, IT support is going to gradually diminish since...
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgc0202
... these Mac users are more technically savvy to know what to do in case something goes awry with their Mac computer.
The policy is driven not by any particular love for Apple, it's driven by the same motivation that drives any corporation: Do more, with less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cgc0202
To my knowledge, the success stories opting for this program indicated reduced IT services and staff (saving money for the company), increased productivity and satisfaction (I assume from Mac users who opted for the program).
Corporations have been pursuing the productivity goals promised by Microsoft for decades. Perhaps they've finally realized Microsoft's failure to deliver this promise. Whatever productivity improvements made possible by their products has been more than offset by the enormous amount of support required by a Microsoft-centric deployment.
Not many organizations have completely migrated from Microsoft to Apple. Those who have are generally small and have required little initial investment. Those that have never regret the decision. Better late than never.
So, am I getting this right? It's okay, only if you provide the Mac? No thanks... In other words, they want to cut IT costs by you providing your own support for you own computer, and they no longer have to provide you with the computer to do your job. So, in essence, you just got more work and a pay cut, because you're providing your own $1000 to $2500 computer. What a bargain! Is Windows really that bad that you would want to do something like this? Not for me...
I see it as an option. Do you not already have your own Mac notebook computer? If you do, the extra marginal expense is likely almost nothing if you choose to use it. And the flier says they will pay for expenses, so it could be to your advantage.
There are other good reasons to not do it though. I would suggest that people not do it, so they can keep their personal and work resources clearly divided, particularly with your data files.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrtotes
Does AppleCare cover damage? It does cover technical support though.
There is no damage protection. It would cover defective parts, and sometimes slightly defective parts expose themselves with heavier use that might not have arisen otherwise.
I'm personally fine with whatever, I've used my own XP computer for my daily work, the Mac stays at home. I don't like some of the Mac's keyboard & mouse controls which require more clicks for tasks that I regularly do, but at least I don't have to worry so much about the core system.
The company outlines minimum system requirements for the program that effectively limit it to PCs running Windows Vista/7 Ultimate (employees can't use the Home, Business, or Professional editions) or any Intel Mac running Snow Leopard with at least a 2GHz processor and 2GB of RAM.
so buy your own but we will tell you what you can buy. go F off. i am not fooled. another ploy to get you to pay for the privilege to work for you. and what IT genius decided win Ultimate but not Pro or business. Someone need media center for work? chess game?
I also think its a horrible idea to let people bring in their own. This will be an IT nightmare.
It is not geared for people sitting in the office at work. It is geared towards those that travel and work from home.
And it won't be an IT nightmare because about the only thing the IT department will have to worry about is getting onto the company network and even then, only from the network side. They will provide the settings you use but it's up to you to configure your own computer to work.
And even a future possibility for the iPad: The iPad As The Door Opener for Bring Your Own Computer " BYOC "http://web2.sys-con.com/node/1274432
Those are great links Onhka. The citrix case study adds more detail to a potential workable implementation. Computers running a thin client firewalled off from the company network makes sense. Company data would reside on the companies servers not on the thin client machines themselves so in theory if there were an issue with the computer another could be issued with minimal data loss. I'm starting to warm up to this. Thanks for the links.
Comments
Does anyone have even a smidgen of respect left for the Mac addict?
And this is very dangerous.
Ofcoz, having the security guild lines is good. But what happen if those are being followed?
Are there tax benefits/penalties for the employer/employee with this arrangement?
(Asking as I don't live in the USA)
I wonder why the requirement for Snow Leopard and not just Leopard.
It can't be THAT much different for their IT department to support.
I imagine that it's probably to reduce the number of software variations they have to support. Variations in hardware generally don't matter at all as long as it meets the minimum requirements.
I'm sure you haven't had any issues. Your probably pretty computer savvy. I can see that for a small company. Things get more difficult as organizations grow larger. 10-15 different computer setups is no big deal. When you start talking about 1000's things get more difficult. People end up having different versions of software. This makes it incredibly difficult to patch for security and bug fixes. People start buying rogue software that works for themselves but not for the company as a whole. People end up splintering off and you end up with 15 solutions for a simple problem. People purchase software and leave with noone else knowing what tools they've been using because they are non-standard. I'm a big fan of individualized access, but company wide, wow.
The article doesn't link to any further detail, but the article only mentions hardware and MS Office other than that, you might be required to use company software.
so buy your own but we will tell you what you can buy. go F off. i am not fooled. another ploy to get you to pay for the privilege to work for you.
In many cases, it is probably a computer that the employee already owns. A Mac that qualifies is going to be almost any but the oldest Intel Macs, starting about mid-2006. My MBP is 3 years old and qualifies, save for a $30 OS upgrade I haven't needed yet.
I'm not totally unfamiliar with the employee having to have their own tools, I understand that it's par for the course for auto & large truck mechanics. But here, it's just an option, you can just continue using company provided hardware.
I actually have some experience with KraftCo from my days at IBM. Then they were a very forward-looking company pursuing the latest technology (CICS and DL/I at that time).
What am curious about is: Will they allow the iPad? My best guess is YES!
Not listed as a qualified computer (yet). It may need specific apps, the article specifically mentiones MS Office.
Why Windows 7 Ultimate? Professional should be just fine. The only things Ultimate offers over professional is a language pack and BitLocker. They want the encryption part I guess? That is the only thing I can think of.
Apparently so, per the article, emphasis mine:
Participating employees must comply with company policies regarding software, security and data requirements, which includes installing Microsoft Office and appropriate anti-virus software and turning on disk encryption.
I think its cool that they let people use macs
I also think its a horrible idea to let people bring in their own. This will be an IT nightmare.
Ha, ha, so naive!
IT department HATE the Mac
IT department loves babysitting retarded computers that do not even run by themselves, let alone doing anything useful.
I don't know what IT attitudes on Macs really are on the whole, but that impression seems to be a bit of a myth. I've known IT workers that hate Microsoft but still weren't Mac users, one in particular recounted a litany of Exchange problems, or dealing with MS support that simply suggest reinstalling. Yes, it's technically work, but I don't think the whole profession is choosing to go the "make work" route, because it's NOT easy work, it can be very frustrating, especially if something that seems completely unrelated to the problem at hand is causing the problem.
Macs do need some maintenance, and sometimes things go wrong. It's less work, but hardly no work. And it too can be frustrating at times.
Technically, what you stated is correct to avoid discrimination. The program though was initiated to accommodate Mac users in a Wintel-based environment. Mac users were the ones who lobbied to have this option adopted.
One possible reason. There is a subsidy if you opt for this program. You have to buy more recent Mac Intel-based computers (if you do not have one yet). You are not be able to use your older Mac computers and pocket the subsidy provided. Just as important, using one OS, Snow Leopard, will minimize versions of softwares maintained in central servers.
If an employee opts for the program, the subsidy usually includes that the employee takes care of the cost of technical support -- not use internal IT services and personnel.
There is a reason why companies have structured the program to include the cost for technical support in the subsidy provided.
The option to provide your own computer will work mainly for those employees who are tech-savvy enough to be able to deal with the usual day-to-day technical issues encountered, and have the foresight to buy an Apple Care, if practical, to deal with for more critical and difficult issues.
It is one thing to seek the support of internal IT in case of emergency. I doubt very much that the company will allow a clueless employee to participate in the program in the future. The company may even impose immediate cessation to participate in the program, if the employee turns up to the "technically-impaired" or clueless.
This is where the more widespread adoption of the iPhone and potentially the iPad, as well as the Apple Store (and perhaps Best Buy "Apple Store") may help in more companies becoming more receptive to Mac computers.
Moreover, unlike in the past, Apple is now paying more attention to the needs of the enterprise, and there are companies, providing solution, e.g., the Citrix ecosystem model, that will allow Apple mobile computing devices to integrate with enterprise servers.
I found out also that Apple Stores now have "business liaisons" to assist people asking for business solutions. However, the one I talked to in the Boylston Apple Store in Boston, while very cooperative. has very limited expertise in biomedical applications though.
Apple should provide more support to local small businesses that offer Apple-centric solutions to address the needs of specific businesses and fields.
CGC
Well stated. I agree with you in principle.
Another Memo circulating in the Kingdom about 1,000 years ago
.
"To all of you Bean Counters who now wish to use that Hindu-Arabic Base 10 System - OK. But you'll need to do your own calculations and provide your own parchments. The Kingdom will continue to use Roman Numerals for all Official Bean Counting, and you're on your own if you Think Different."
Signed,
The Kingdom's Head Bean Counter
.
.
Ha, ha, so naive!
IT department HATE the Mac
IT department loves babysitting retarded computers that do not even run by themselves, let alone doing anything useful.
I love my Macs and I greatly prefer them to PCs, but I think your comments have nothing to do with reality. My son-in-law is a permanent tech support consultant for a media production company that has a (practically) all Mac environment and he is always busy. (If Macs worked as well as they're reputed to, he wouldn't have a very well-paying job.) There is plenty that goes wrong either with the Macs or with the overall network/server environment. In fact, he got home at 3 am this morning after staying to fix whatever had gone wrong yesterday. One of the biggest problems in the Macs themselves are drive failures. His feeling (and he loves his Macs also) is that the last quality Macs were the G4 "Sawtooth" towers from almost 10 years ago.
And that's aside from the usual support issues, like restoring computers that have crashed, data backup issues, etc.
It's far different using a Mac at home than using a Mac in an office environment and support is definitely still needed.
And while I do hate PCs, they run Word, Excel, Powerpoint, IE 8 (or Safari) and Outlook and that's what probably 90% of all employees need. In addition, most large companies will have some proprietary programs for accounting and finance and those (especially if they're client-server) might not run on the Mac OS at all. And even if they're cloud-based applications, if they're dot.net type apps that use off the shelf tools from companies like Infragistics, they might not work on a Mac even though they're web based. So to say that PCs do nothing useful is immature idiocy.
Maybe. I worked in a Dell office, and purchased my own Mac. Did my own support, etc, and they agreed to purchase applecare to cover any damage.
Does AppleCare cover damage? It does cover technical support though.
What a bargain! Is Windows really that bad that you would want to do something like this? Not for me...
I agree with you points but I'd happily take a contribution towards a Mac I get to use at home too and one which will not frustrate the hell out of me like the Dells w/WinXP do at the moment. I only use MS Office and the odd database but these things are unsably slow.
----
Separately I truly hope Kraft doesn't destroy the institution that is Cadbury's. They haven't covered themselves in glory so far... http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/markets...9&in_page_id=3
Obviously, like other Bring Your Own Computer (BYOC) programs which even Microsoft offers its employees, must be able to us 'Desktop Virtualization' to deliver applications and desktops environments to unmanaged devices.
For more info on how it works, perhaps this will http://www.virtualizationpractice.com/blog/?p=3817 will help keep some feet out of some mouths.
That would certainly keep the IT department busy...
I doubt it. IT support is going to diminish.
Kraft is an enormous company, with enormous IT expenses. It's also a hugely successful company. They haven't grown to be that way without scrutinizing every business decision. They would not initiate a policy like this without serious consideration.
Obviously, this program is a lobby usually initiated by Mac users.
Make no mistake, Kraft is merely succumbing to the inevitable... given a choice, people will choose Apple. There's no stopping the momentum. A less obvious reason is hidden in their policy: if you use a Mac, you're on your own. In other words, IT support is going to gradually diminish since...
... these Mac users are more technically savvy to know what to do in case something goes awry with their Mac computer.
The policy is driven not by any particular love for Apple, it's driven by the same motivation that drives any corporation: Do more, with less.
To my knowledge, the success stories opting for this program indicated reduced IT services and staff (saving money for the company), increased productivity and satisfaction (I assume from Mac users who opted for the program).
Corporations have been pursuing the productivity goals promised by Microsoft for decades. Perhaps they've finally realized Microsoft's failure to deliver this promise. Whatever productivity improvements made possible by their products has been more than offset by the enormous amount of support required by a Microsoft-centric deployment.
Not many organizations have completely migrated from Microsoft to Apple. Those who have are generally small and have required little initial investment. Those that have never regret the decision. Better late than never.
So, am I getting this right? It's okay, only if you provide the Mac? No thanks... In other words, they want to cut IT costs by you providing your own support for you own computer, and they no longer have to provide you with the computer to do your job. So, in essence, you just got more work and a pay cut, because you're providing your own $1000 to $2500 computer. What a bargain! Is Windows really that bad that you would want to do something like this? Not for me...
I see it as an option. Do you not already have your own Mac notebook computer? If you do, the extra marginal expense is likely almost nothing if you choose to use it. And the flier says they will pay for expenses, so it could be to your advantage.
There are other good reasons to not do it though. I would suggest that people not do it, so they can keep their personal and work resources clearly divided, particularly with your data files.
Does AppleCare cover damage? It does cover technical support though.
There is no damage protection. It would cover defective parts, and sometimes slightly defective parts expose themselves with heavier use that might not have arisen otherwise.
I'm personally fine with whatever, I've used my own XP computer for my daily work, the Mac stays at home. I don't like some of the Mac's keyboard & mouse controls which require more clicks for tasks that I regularly do, but at least I don't have to worry so much about the core system.
The company outlines minimum system requirements for the program that effectively limit it to PCs running Windows Vista/7 Ultimate (employees can't use the Home, Business, or Professional editions) or any Intel Mac running Snow Leopard with at least a 2GHz processor and 2GB of RAM.
so buy your own but we will tell you what you can buy. go F off. i am not fooled. another ploy to get you to pay for the privilege to work for you. and what IT genius decided win Ultimate but not Pro or business. Someone need media center for work? chess game?
Your comments indicate to the contrary.
A Case in Point: Bring your Own PC Reinvents The Corporate PC: A Citrix Systems Case Study http://simplicityispower.citrix.com/...rporate-pc.pdf
And even a future possibility for the iPad: The iPad As The Door Opener for Bring Your Own Computer " BYOC " http://web2.sys-con.com/node/1274432
I also think its a horrible idea to let people bring in their own. This will be an IT nightmare.
It is not geared for people sitting in the office at work. It is geared towards those that travel and work from home.
And it won't be an IT nightmare because about the only thing the IT department will have to worry about is getting onto the company network and even then, only from the network side. They will provide the settings you use but it's up to you to configure your own computer to work.
Your comments indicate to the contrary.
A Case in Point: Bring your Own PC Reinvents The Corporate PC: A Citrix Systems Case Study http://simplicityispower.citrix.com/...rporate-pc.pdf
And even a future possibility for the iPad: The iPad As The Door Opener for Bring Your Own Computer " BYOC " http://web2.sys-con.com/node/1274432
Those are great links Onhka. The citrix case study adds more detail to a potential workable implementation. Computers running a thin client firewalled off from the company network makes sense. Company data would reside on the companies servers not on the thin client machines themselves so in theory if there were an issue with the computer another could be issued with minimal data loss. I'm starting to warm up to this. Thanks for the links.