Whilst all these changes at the point of sale are interesting and do no doubt improve security, I think the card companies need to figure out a way to improve on-line security.
I know a bunch of people who are members of a club which has seen a bunch of break-in's to cars, with apparently nothing taken. Turns out what the theves were doing was writing down all the credit card numbers etc. that they could find in the car (it's amazing how many people seem to leave wallets, purses etc in their cars when they go to play golf), then using them to buy things (not sure exactly how they completed the action, since I thought most websites check the registered credit card address against the card number, but maybe not).
I think we need to start seeing "card readers" built into computers, so when you buy something on the internet, there is similar verification to these new RFID systems in shops. Surely it must be possible to tap your credit card (or phone, or whatever) against a reader on a computer that you are using to order something on-line and have some sort of secure verification done?
"iPhone users will be able to make Visa mobile payments in retail stores, at fast food restaurants, in taxis, during sporting events (such as at baseball games),
Heh, who wrote that press release? Do we really need to know that a "baseball game" is an example of a sporting event? Ha!
So what you are saying is that with this technology they can track your whereabouts whenever you make a transaction, just like they can with a credit card? Obviously there would also be a way to turn it off as well.
Please guys, consider how this is a slow step-by-step toward an Orwellian world. Just like the lobster that you drop into a pot of water and slowly turn it up until it's cooked. The lobster doesn't even realize what's happening until it's too late.
Whilst all these changes at the point of sale are interesting and do no doubt improve security, I think the card companies need to figure out a way to improve on-line security.
after having someone use my card for unauthorized online purchases, i contacted visa and MC about better security - now, UNLESS the shipping address is my home or work address, any card purchase requiring shipment [online, over the phone, whatever] must be verified by calling me before it will be approved. also, when i travel overseas i call them to tell them where i will be and ask to allow card purchases there, otherwise they will be declined. you would be amazed how much customer service can do for you if you just ask nicely.
as for this iPhone as a credit card thing, why not just put a Visa RFID in a sticker and put it on the back of [or inside the battery cover of] any model phone from any carrier, a la mobil speedpass?
FYI, that's an excellent metaphor of long standing for "incremental, undesirable change which allows its victims to acclimate so that, moment to moment, the remain unaware that things are getting steadily worse."
Because the Japanese don't mind having every aspect of their lives tracked and monitored.
It's opt in. If you don't want to use it, you don't.
Not a big deal.
Besides, if you're already using a credit or debit card, your financial institution knows where you've been regardless if you're using a NFC contactless payment system or sliding your card into a POS terminal/punching in a PIN to authorize a transaction.
FYI, that's an excellent metaphor of long standing for "incremental, undesirable change which allows its victims to acclimate so that, moment to moment, the remain unaware that things are getting steadily worse."
It would have been, had the animal been a frog instead of a lobster, and the instrument been a pan instead of a pot. Close, but no cigar.
I remember back in the day packing car batteries so we could run our card terminals at remote fairs and art shows. This is a huge improvement! Now everyone can take credit cards and sell just about anything, 24 hours a day.
Imagine the growth in our economy. The IRS will demand info from the clearinghouses. States will demand info sharing as well so they can determine exactly which purchases were made in-state and are thus taxable. Then they can alert you on your iPad and you can pay the tax with a credit card.
See, it comes full circle.
Seriously though, privacy has been withering away since the interent, with most of us willingly trading a little privacy for convenience.
On another note, this will allow banks to rip off a broad swath of participants. When I used to track my fees, the banks always stole a penny here, a penny there. It adds up. I eventually accepted it because it took too long to call and fix it.
ffs of course it requires a case. or maybe it will be included in an upcoming iPhone, and maybe apple will start a service where you send in your old iPhone and they magically incorporate it into your iPhone and sent it back for free! its amazing how many people post to the internet without taking 5 sec to think.
I'm thinking it either has to have a system built-in or forget it. Then that tag can be set and activated if the user so chooses, or left inactive.
Near field RFID can just be a sticker or even a business card. I think I still have some from when I was playing with the electronics. They are often key fobs. The system is set up such that the transmission power is so weak that it can't be detected well beyond a few centimeters. Making something sensitive enough to reach a larger distance is usually going to look pretty awkward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blah64
Because the Japanese don't mind having every aspect of their lives tracked and monitored.
I LOVE people making silly comments with nothing to back themselves up! ;-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by addabox
FYI, that's an excellent metaphor of long standing for "incremental, undesirable change which allows its victims to acclimate so that, moment to moment, the remain unaware that things are getting steadily worse."
Thank you addabox. It's a metaphor that's been around for at least 30 years that I know of personally, so probably much longer than that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cameronj
It would have been, had the animal been a frog instead of a lobster, and the instrument been a pan instead of a pot. Close, but no cigar.
That's why I love it so much
Sorry, but you can't claim that your metaphor is the "real" one. Personally, I've never heard of the frog metaphor, although it seems like basically the same thing. But apparently, at least with frogs, it's a false metaphor, see: http://answers.google.com/answers/th...id/758865.html
However, the theory holds true for human behavior. addabox summarized it perfectly. People are giving up their basic privacy, i.e. freedom from being tracked and monitored - for the most part freely of their own will under the guise of convenience and entertainment. It's really sad.
Sorry, but you can't claim that your metaphor is the "real" one. Personally, I've never heard of the frog metaphor, although it seems like basically the same thing. But apparently, at least with frogs, it's a false metaphor, see: http://answers.google.com/answers/th...id/758865.html
Sorry, but it is. Frog in a hot pan. I'm not saying you're an idiot because you didn't know it, I just found it funny. The saying you used is clearly wrong though.
I'm also sure that once addabox thinks about it for a second, he'll realize his mistake. Just because someone used the wrong metaphor in your presence 30 years ago does not mean that the saying you used has "been around" for 30 years
I'm thinking it either has to have a system built-in or forget it. Then that tag can be set and activated if the user so chooses, or left inactive.
Near field RFID can just be a sticker or even a business card. I think I still have some from when I was playing with the electronics. They are often key fobs. The system is set up such that the transmission power is so weak that it can't be detected well beyond a few centimeters. Making something sensitive enough to reach a larger distance is usually going to look pretty awkward.
yeah, to be truly successful it will need to be incorporated into upcoming devices. but, old hardware will need a case, and bc rfid tags are so small it could be incorporated in even the thinnest cases. what would be interesting is if, as you suggested, they are able to allow the user to disable it and/or require it to querry the corresponding device with a password request. i'm looking forward to seeing what happens.
I'm also sure that once addabox thinks about it for a second, he'll realize his mistake. Just because someone used the wrong metaphor in your presence 30 years ago does not mean that the saying you used has "been around" for 30 years
Look, the overall topic is not that important, but your attitude is, which is why I bothered to write back. When you say "The saying you used is clearly wrong" you're full of crap. I've heard this metaphor used MANY times by MANY people over at least the past 30 years, probably closer to 40. Maybe the frog saying has been around longer, maybe not, but who cares? Perhaps where you live the frog saying is prevalent, and where I live it's lobsters. Ever think of that?
Note that I'm not, and never have, said you're wrong. But you are trying to say I am, which is just not true.
It's opt in. If you don't want to use it, you don't.
Not a big deal.
Do you honestly think that it will always be opt in? Certain things are already very difficult to purchase with cash and that trajectory will likely continue unless there is a big consumer rebellion for some reason. The hope is that consumers start to look at the immense amounts of personal data stores and the types of potential abuse they allow, and start pushing back before it's too late (if it isn't already).
Quote:
Originally Posted by cvaldes1831
Besides, if you're already using a credit or debit card, your financial institution knows where you've been regardless if you're using a NFC contactless payment system or sliding your card into a POS terminal/punching in a PIN to authorize a transaction.
Don't assume everyone uses credit or debit cards! I don't except in very, very rare situations where it's just not possible to do otherwise. But RFID is far less secure than magnetic strips - see below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by robogobo
um, GPS can't be used to track you. It's just a receiver. Location services can be (and they're watching you right now!!!)
Sorry, my bad, I meant LBS (location-based services), although they can often be related.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw
Seriously though, privacy has been withering away since the interent, with most of us willingly trading a little privacy for convenience.
Let me make a tiny flip-change to fix the last part of that quote for you.
(sadly,) most of us willingly trading our privacy for a little convenience.
Are those 10-15 seconds saved here and there really worth allowing yourself to have all of your purchases tracked, monitored and profiled? In many ways this data can be used to predict your future behavior better than you can predict yourself, because you don't think about it, you just do it. This is scary shit, and while the Feds at least have some valid reasons for wanting to know about individuals' behavior, Google and Facebook and their ilk really need to be seriously regulated. They're not going to do it themselves. And I'm generally NOT a proponent of big government.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
Near field RFID can just be a sticker or even a business card. I think I still have some from when I was playing with the electronics. They are often key fobs. The system is set up such that the transmission power is so weak that it can't be detected well beyond a few centimeters. Making something sensitive enough to reach a larger distance is usually going to look pretty awkward.
Did you not see the experiment where people were sniffing out data from many feet away? There are many, many places that large-ish devices can be hidden, so size is not an issue. It's unlikely to happen in a gov't monitored location, like an airport, but in the other 99% of the world, not a problem. Can't find the link I'm thinking of right now, but here's one from Mythbusters regarding RFID security. I suspect he got in trouble for talking about this. It's really good, only 2 minutes - watch it!
And here's Chris Paget driving around with a home brew box picking up people's passport data. For real. (It's a little slow-moving, you can get the idea by watching about 1/2 of it)
One last interesting bit to consider. I have no idea who these guys are or how reputable they are, but the topic is worthy. If your passport or ANY OTHER RFID-EMBEDDED ITEM (like a credit card) can be sniffed out from a distance (and it can), then you are not safe traveling in many parts of the world. Especially for U.S. citizens, but others as well.
You can ask your bank to issue you a non-RFID credit/debit card, and they will do so for no charge. Tell everyone you know! If enough people do this, maybe they'll stop issuing these security nightmares by default!
Oh, and don't use the #$!@# "loyalty cards"! Or if you absolutely must, don't EVER use any real-world information to get one. Even better, unless the cashiers know you well, ask for a new card every few times you shop. Most places won't even make you fill out the info, just tell them you'll bring it back next time.
Perhaps where you live the frog saying is prevalent, and where I live it's lobsters. Ever think of that?
Considered that. Quickly realized I was wasting my time. Some things are right, some are wrong. You're wrong, and anyone who has ever told you that incorrect metaphor is as well. The fact that Google has never heard of it should give you a hint Go ahead, find me one other written example of that metaphor ANYWHERE online. I've already posted you the google results, which should make it clear enough. If you know lots of people who have used that metaphor, well, I guess it shouldn't surprise me that they don't know how to use a computer either
On another note, I'm totally up for anything that will let me carry less crap around with me. I tried some stupid iPhone app that supposedly let your phone take the place of all those loyalty keyring things, but it never worked in the least. Removed it after it failed at Harris Teeter, CVS and Giant. Lame!
So, let me see that example of your terrible metaphor It's funny, it's always those who can't defend their logic who tell the other "I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't like how you're saying I am." Hilarious!
Considered that. Quickly realized I was wasting my time. Some things are right, some are wrong. You're wrong, and anyone who has ever told you that incorrect metaphor is as well. The fact that Google has never heard of it should give you a hint Go ahead, find me one other written example of that metaphor ANYWHERE online. I've already posted you the google results, which should make it clear enough. If you know lots of people who have used that metaphor, well, I guess it shouldn't surprise me that they don't know how to use a computer either
So, let me see that example of your terrible metaphor It's funny, it's always those who can't defend their logic who tell the other "I'm not saying you're wrong, I just don't like how you're saying I am." Hilarious!
Sure, that was easy, one quick google search did the trick: (lobster boil metaphor; nothing tricky).
So according to your logic, this means that you must not know how to use a computer! But seriously, are your search skills so poor that you made one lame pass, didn't find what you were looking for and started calling me names? Not only will you will not win many battles that way, you end up looking like a fool.
I have no doubt after the little searching I did that the frog metaphor is more common. But as I mentioned before, I never said it was bad, wrong or in dispute. However, you are absolutely, unequivocally, undeniably, 100% WRONG that the lobster metaphor does not exist. The "proof" you requested is right there in Google.
Here, let me repeat all the relevant parts of your post so you can take note of all the ways you are wrong. FWIW, I would not have done this (or even bothered respond at all) if you hadn't been so antagonizingly disrespectful.
1) "You're wrong, and anyone who has ever told you that incorrect metaphor is as well." (by your own requested form of proof, I'm not wrong).
2) "Google has never heard of it" (wrong)
3) "Go ahead, find me one other written example of that metaphor ANYWHERE online." (done)
4) Here's the funniest one: "I've already posted you the google results". Like there is one, single master Google search for any particular search topic! Hahahaha, that's so rich! That's what blows me away more than anything else - that anyone with any internet skills whatsoever would make a comment like that.
5) "they don't know how to use a computer either". As demonstrated, anyone who claims a single Google search is definitive on a topic, well, I'll stop repeating myself, but it might be time to find a mirror.
6) "those who can't defend their logic..." Defended just fine.
This technology as they said is already in Japan and Malaysia. When I lived in Japan for a year late 2008 into 2009, most people's cell phones were already equipped with this technology. They would swipe their phones over to enter train turnstiles for fare, purchase food, send payments, etc. When I read up on it there in Japan it was actually very secure due to all the encryption on it. As such, there are safety protocols tied to it. It was rather neat, actually to NOT have to carry anything but your phone. They would even unlock car doors and start cars. It was quite impressive.
Comments
I know a bunch of people who are members of a club which has seen a bunch of break-in's to cars, with apparently nothing taken. Turns out what the theves were doing was writing down all the credit card numbers etc. that they could find in the car (it's amazing how many people seem to leave wallets, purses etc in their cars when they go to play golf), then using them to buy things (not sure exactly how they completed the action, since I thought most websites check the registered credit card address against the card number, but maybe not).
I think we need to start seeing "card readers" built into computers, so when you buy something on the internet, there is similar verification to these new RFID systems in shops. Surely it must be possible to tap your credit card (or phone, or whatever) against a reader on a computer that you are using to order something on-line and have some sort of secure verification done?
"iPhone users will be able to make Visa mobile payments in retail stores, at fast food restaurants, in taxis, during sporting events (such as at baseball games),
Heh, who wrote that press release? Do we really need to know that a "baseball game" is an example of a sporting event? Ha!
So what you are saying is that with this technology they can track your whereabouts whenever you make a transaction, just like they can with a credit card? Obviously there would also be a way to turn it off as well.
Nice sig.
Please guys, consider how this is a slow step-by-step toward an Orwellian world. Just like the lobster that you drop into a pot of water and slowly turn it up until it's cooked. The lobster doesn't even realize what's happening until it's too late.
I LOVE screwed-up metaphors!
Very unApplelike to need the case. I bet this is built into the 4G iPhone.
Something like the Starbucks app -- which pops up a bar code on the display that the retailer can scan -- makes a lot more sense.
Whilst all these changes at the point of sale are interesting and do no doubt improve security, I think the card companies need to figure out a way to improve on-line security.
after having someone use my card for unauthorized online purchases, i contacted visa and MC about better security - now, UNLESS the shipping address is my home or work address, any card purchase requiring shipment [online, over the phone, whatever] must be verified by calling me before it will be approved. also, when i travel overseas i call them to tell them where i will be and ask to allow card purchases there, otherwise they will be declined. you would be amazed how much customer service can do for you if you just ask nicely.
as for this iPhone as a credit card thing, why not just put a Visa RFID in a sticker and put it on the back of [or inside the battery cover of] any model phone from any carrier, a la mobil speedpass?
I LOVE screwed-up metaphors!
FYI, that's an excellent metaphor of long standing for "incremental, undesirable change which allows its victims to acclimate so that, moment to moment, the remain unaware that things are getting steadily worse."
Because the Japanese don't mind having every aspect of their lives tracked and monitored.
It's opt in. If you don't want to use it, you don't.
Not a big deal.
Besides, if you're already using a credit or debit card, your financial institution knows where you've been regardless if you're using a NFC contactless payment system or sliding your card into a POS terminal/punching in a PIN to authorize a transaction.
FYI, that's an excellent metaphor of long standing for "incremental, undesirable change which allows its victims to acclimate so that, moment to moment, the remain unaware that things are getting steadily worse."
It would have been, had the animal been a frog instead of a lobster, and the instrument been a pan instead of a pot. Close, but no cigar.
That's why I love it so much
Yes, there's GPS on your iPhone, but (as far as we know) you can (mostly) disable it.
um, GPS can't be used to track you. It's just a receiver. Location services can be (and they're watching you right now!!!)
Imagine the growth in our economy. The IRS will demand info from the clearinghouses. States will demand info sharing as well so they can determine exactly which purchases were made in-state and are thus taxable. Then they can alert you on your iPad and you can pay the tax with a credit card.
See, it comes full circle.
Seriously though, privacy has been withering away since the interent, with most of us willingly trading a little privacy for convenience.
On another note, this will allow banks to rip off a broad swath of participants. When I used to track my fees, the banks always stole a penny here, a penny there. It adds up. I eventually accepted it because it took too long to call and fix it.
ffs of course it requires a case. or maybe it will be included in an upcoming iPhone, and maybe apple will start a service where you send in your old iPhone and they magically incorporate it into your iPhone and sent it back for free! its amazing how many people post to the internet without taking 5 sec to think.
I'm thinking it either has to have a system built-in or forget it. Then that tag can be set and activated if the user so chooses, or left inactive.
Near field RFID can just be a sticker or even a business card. I think I still have some from when I was playing with the electronics. They are often key fobs. The system is set up such that the transmission power is so weak that it can't be detected well beyond a few centimeters. Making something sensitive enough to reach a larger distance is usually going to look pretty awkward.
Because the Japanese don't mind having every aspect of their lives tracked and monitored.
Use cash.
I LOVE screwed-up metaphors!
I LOVE people making silly comments with nothing to back themselves up! ;-)
FYI, that's an excellent metaphor of long standing for "incremental, undesirable change which allows its victims to acclimate so that, moment to moment, the remain unaware that things are getting steadily worse."
Thank you addabox. It's a metaphor that's been around for at least 30 years that I know of personally, so probably much longer than that.
It would have been, had the animal been a frog instead of a lobster, and the instrument been a pan instead of a pot. Close, but no cigar.
That's why I love it so much
Sorry, but you can't claim that your metaphor is the "real" one. Personally, I've never heard of the frog metaphor, although it seems like basically the same thing. But apparently, at least with frogs, it's a false metaphor, see: http://answers.google.com/answers/th...id/758865.html
However, the theory holds true for human behavior. addabox summarized it perfectly. People are giving up their basic privacy, i.e. freedom from being tracked and monitored - for the most part freely of their own will under the guise of convenience and entertainment. It's really sad.
Sorry, but you can't claim that your metaphor is the "real" one. Personally, I've never heard of the frog metaphor, although it seems like basically the same thing. But apparently, at least with frogs, it's a false metaphor, see: http://answers.google.com/answers/th...id/758865.html
Sorry, but it is. Frog in a hot pan. I'm not saying you're an idiot because you didn't know it, I just found it funny. The saying you used is clearly wrong though.
http://www.google.com/search?q=popul...ient=firefox-a
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&s...=&oq=&gs_rfai=
I'm also sure that once addabox thinks about it for a second, he'll realize his mistake. Just because someone used the wrong metaphor in your presence 30 years ago does not mean that the saying you used has "been around" for 30 years
I'm thinking it either has to have a system built-in or forget it. Then that tag can be set and activated if the user so chooses, or left inactive.
Near field RFID can just be a sticker or even a business card. I think I still have some from when I was playing with the electronics. They are often key fobs. The system is set up such that the transmission power is so weak that it can't be detected well beyond a few centimeters. Making something sensitive enough to reach a larger distance is usually going to look pretty awkward.
yeah, to be truly successful it will need to be incorporated into upcoming devices. but, old hardware will need a case, and bc rfid tags are so small it could be incorporated in even the thinnest cases. what would be interesting is if, as you suggested, they are able to allow the user to disable it and/or require it to querry the corresponding device with a password request. i'm looking forward to seeing what happens.
The saying you used is clearly wrong though.
....
I'm also sure that once addabox thinks about it for a second, he'll realize his mistake. Just because someone used the wrong metaphor in your presence 30 years ago does not mean that the saying you used has "been around" for 30 years
Look, the overall topic is not that important, but your attitude is, which is why I bothered to write back. When you say "The saying you used is clearly wrong" you're full of crap. I've heard this metaphor used MANY times by MANY people over at least the past 30 years, probably closer to 40. Maybe the frog saying has been around longer, maybe not, but who cares? Perhaps where you live the frog saying is prevalent, and where I live it's lobsters. Ever think of that?
Note that I'm not, and never have, said you're wrong. But you are trying to say I am, which is just not true.
It's opt in. If you don't want to use it, you don't.
Not a big deal.
Do you honestly think that it will always be opt in? Certain things are already very difficult to purchase with cash and that trajectory will likely continue unless there is a big consumer rebellion for some reason. The hope is that consumers start to look at the immense amounts of personal data stores and the types of potential abuse they allow, and start pushing back before it's too late (if it isn't already).
Besides, if you're already using a credit or debit card, your financial institution knows where you've been regardless if you're using a NFC contactless payment system or sliding your card into a POS terminal/punching in a PIN to authorize a transaction.
Don't assume everyone uses credit or debit cards! I don't except in very, very rare situations where it's just not possible to do otherwise. But RFID is far less secure than magnetic strips - see below.
um, GPS can't be used to track you. It's just a receiver. Location services can be (and they're watching you right now!!!)
Sorry, my bad, I meant LBS (location-based services), although they can often be related.
Seriously though, privacy has been withering away since the interent, with most of us willingly trading a little privacy for convenience.
Let me make a tiny flip-change to fix the last part of that quote for you.
(sadly,) most of us willingly trading our privacy for a little convenience.
Are those 10-15 seconds saved here and there really worth allowing yourself to have all of your purchases tracked, monitored and profiled? In many ways this data can be used to predict your future behavior better than you can predict yourself, because you don't think about it, you just do it. This is scary shit, and while the Feds at least have some valid reasons for wanting to know about individuals' behavior, Google and Facebook and their ilk really need to be seriously regulated. They're not going to do it themselves. And I'm generally NOT a proponent of big government.
Near field RFID can just be a sticker or even a business card. I think I still have some from when I was playing with the electronics. They are often key fobs. The system is set up such that the transmission power is so weak that it can't be detected well beyond a few centimeters. Making something sensitive enough to reach a larger distance is usually going to look pretty awkward.
Did you not see the experiment where people were sniffing out data from many feet away? There are many, many places that large-ish devices can be hidden, so size is not an issue. It's unlikely to happen in a gov't monitored location, like an airport, but in the other 99% of the world, not a problem. Can't find the link I'm thinking of right now, but here's one from Mythbusters regarding RFID security. I suspect he got in trouble for talking about this. It's really good, only 2 minutes - watch it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X034R3yzDhw
And here's Chris Paget driving around with a home brew box picking up people's passport data. For real. (It's a little slow-moving, you can get the idea by watching about 1/2 of it)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9isKnDiJNPk
One last interesting bit to consider. I have no idea who these guys are or how reputable they are, but the topic is worthy. If your passport or ANY OTHER RFID-EMBEDDED ITEM (like a credit card) can be sniffed out from a distance (and it can), then you are not safe traveling in many parts of the world. Especially for U.S. citizens, but others as well.
You can ask your bank to issue you a non-RFID credit/debit card, and they will do so for no charge. Tell everyone you know! If enough people do this, maybe they'll stop issuing these security nightmares by default!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XXaqraF7pI
Use cash.
Yup. We all should do a lot more of that! :-)
Oh, and don't use the #$!@# "loyalty cards"! Or if you absolutely must, don't EVER use any real-world information to get one. Even better, unless the cashiers know you well, ask for a new card every few times you shop. Most places won't even make you fill out the info, just tell them you'll bring it back next time.
Perhaps where you live the frog saying is prevalent, and where I live it's lobsters. Ever think of that?
Considered that. Quickly realized I was wasting my time. Some things are right, some are wrong. You're wrong, and anyone who has ever told you that incorrect metaphor is as well. The fact that Google has never heard of it should give you a hint
On another note, I'm totally up for anything that will let me carry less crap around with me. I tried some stupid iPhone app that supposedly let your phone take the place of all those loyalty keyring things, but it never worked in the least. Removed it after it failed at Harris Teeter, CVS and Giant. Lame!
So, let me see that example of your terrible metaphor
Considered that. Quickly realized I was wasting my time. Some things are right, some are wrong. You're wrong, and anyone who has ever told you that incorrect metaphor is as well. The fact that Google has never heard of it should give you a hint
So, let me see that example of your terrible metaphor
Sure, that was easy, one quick google search did the trick: (lobster boil metaphor; nothing tricky).
http://www.google.com/search?q=lobst...&start=10&sa=N
Pick one that suits you. The first hit works, but it's rather weak.
The 5th hit is better, it actually quotes two other sources:
http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll...#comment-44324
So according to your logic, this means that you must not know how to use a computer!
I have no doubt after the little searching I did that the frog metaphor is more common. But as I mentioned before, I never said it was bad, wrong or in dispute. However, you are absolutely, unequivocally, undeniably, 100% WRONG that the lobster metaphor does not exist. The "proof" you requested is right there in Google.
Here, let me repeat all the relevant parts of your post so you can take note of all the ways you are wrong. FWIW, I would not have done this (or even bothered respond at all) if you hadn't been so antagonizingly disrespectful.
1) "You're wrong, and anyone who has ever told you that incorrect metaphor is as well." (by your own requested form of proof, I'm not wrong).
2) "Google has never heard of it" (wrong)
3) "Go ahead, find me one other written example of that metaphor ANYWHERE online." (done)
4) Here's the funniest one: "I've already posted you the google results". Like there is one, single master Google search for any particular search topic! Hahahaha, that's so rich! That's what blows me away more than anything else - that anyone with any internet skills whatsoever would make a comment like that.
5) "they don't know how to use a computer either". As demonstrated, anyone who claims a single Google search is definitive on a topic, well, I'll stop repeating myself, but it might be time to find a mirror.
6) "those who can't defend their logic..." Defended just fine.