This is worse than talking to a wall. At least walls don't keep repeating the same inane response.
Go back and read what I wrote. Get someone to read it to you since you're apparently incapable of simple comprehension.
I am not repeating a response. I am wait for you to actually respond to my question.
Still waiting for you to tie them hearing Hogan's story as proof of them knowing it was stolen. I think you realize your mistake, hence you continuing to repeat the reasons you believe it was stolen property.
Let's play this simple game: Let's say it was stolen. Now that is out of the way, please don't present reasons it was stolen property, we get that. truly, I believe you. Really.
Now, how would hearing Hogan's story prove it was stolen? Like I said and you conveniently ignored, I could tell you all sorts of tall tales. My telling you these stories isn't proof that they are true. Could you even consider that Hogan, upstanding citizen that he is, might not be an entirely truthful individual? And that Giz might then have had doubts about all or parts of his story? That his story to Giz doesn't prove anything? That Giz's, 3 weeks later saying the now believe his story doesn't mean they believed it 3 weeks earlier? You stated that his story (or rather them retelling his story weeks later after convincing themselves it was real) was proof the knew at the time that it was stolen. Do you believe everything someone tells you?
His story wasn't proof of anything, let alone proof of what Giz knew. You have yet to present an argument that actual deals with this part of your logic gap...other than to continually repeat reasons that it was stolen. Strange. Almost seems intentionally obtuse.
And yes, that is exactly why corporations implement such policies. It reduces the chance of accidents occurring.
I'm sure that that would be the case for any policy that Apple has in place for the prototype iPhone testing. And that's what most corporations would have you believe about all of their training too. But I have been involved in such "corporate training" exercises for decades now, first with the Air Force, then with Lockheed Martin, and finally with my present employer (I'll keep that personal, if you don't mind). And the way they are administered and enforced does absolutely nothing to reduce the chances of occurrence. But what it does do is transfer much of the responsibility onto the shoulders of individuals. This will depend on the details of the case, of course. But here, where the victim we're talking about is actually the company, I think their policies will probably help them out a great deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas
But accidents while acting as an agent of a corporation will still, often, result in the company being held responsible. If he was out with the device, testing it for Apple, then he was acting as an agent of Apple.
These policies, when made explicit and agreed to be the employee, and when the only victim is the company itself (as seems the case here, so far) often cause the light to fall on the specific parties that broke the rules (perhaps Powell) and/or the law (Hogan and Gizmodo).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas
Which is why I say it will come to the stolen property case. The fact that the lost item became a stolen item will play a huge role in deciding the trade secret violations issue. But that doesn't remove Apple's responsibility to have done as much as possible to keep it a secret nor the issue of if they did so.
I'm sure we'll find out that under the circumstances (i.e. that field testing must get done) that Apple did the best they could and that Gizmodo pulled a slick one to finish the deed.
I am not repeating a response. I am wait for you to actually respond to my question.
Still waiting for you to tie them hearing Hogan's story as proof of them knowing it was stolen.
Well, I think maybe you are not seeing the forest for the trees. The bottom line is that any way you cut it, after hearing Hogan's story, Gizmodo was damn sure that he wasn't the rightful owner. If you try to buy the iPhone at that point, you are buying stolen property.
Where the other poster is getting into trouble with you is that he is bothering to try to "cut it up" into possibilities. He should have just stated my bold sentence above and left it at that. Here's his cut up, though, not that it matters:
Do you agree that Hogan told Gizmodo that he attempted to return the phone by calling Apple Care? Even assuming they believe such a weird suggestion by Hogan, what's Gizmodo to make of it? Here are the possibilities, as far as they knew at that point:
(1) Apple is, in fact, the owner. In that case, Hogan is not the owner. Purchasing it so soon under this condition equates to purchasing stolen property.
(2) Apple is not actually the owner. In that case, Hogan hasn't made a sufficient attempt to contact the owner, and once again the property cannot be purchased.
Either way you cut it, Gizmodo knows after hearing Hogan's story that he is not the rightful owner.
All of this is entertaining, to say the least, because it doesn't seem like you've made any attempt whatsoever to suggest how there is any circumstance under which this could not be considered a case of receiving stolen merchandise.
It is clear that Gizmodo acquired the device through illegal means, and that trumps the negligence argument, so the trade secrets issue is not looking good either.
Interestingly enough, there is also the third charge: damaging property. Who can argue that one? At least its probably not a harsh punishment.
Well, I think maybe you are not seeing the forest for the trees. The bottom line is that any way you cut it, after hearing Hogan's story, Gizmodo was damn sure that he wasn't the rightful owner. If you try to buy the iPhone at that point, you are buying stolen property.
Where the other poster is getting into trouble with you is that he is bothering to try to "cut it up" into possibilities. He should have just stated my bold sentence above and left it at that. Here's his cut up, though, not that it matters:
Do you agree that Hogan told Gizmodo that he attempted to return the phone by calling Apple Care? Even assuming they believe such a weird suggestion by Hogan, what's Gizmodo to make of it? Here are the possibilities, as far as they knew at that point:
(1) Apple is, in fact, the owner. In that case, Hogan is not the owner. Purchasing it so soon under this condition equates to purchasing stolen property.
(2) Apple is not actually the owner. In that case, Hogan hasn't made a sufficient attempt to contact the owner, and once again the property cannot be purchased.
Either way you cut it, Gizmodo knows after hearing Hogan's story that he is not the rightful owner.
All of this is entertaining, to say the least, because it doesn't seem like you've made any attempt whatsoever to suggest how there is any circumstance under which this could not be considered a case of receiving stolen merchandise.
It is clear that Gizmodo acquired the device through illegal means, and that trumps the negligence argument, so the trade secrets issue is not looking good either.
Interestingly enough, there is also the third charge: damaging property. Who can argue that one? At least its probably not a harsh punishment.
Thompson
Upon hearing the story from Hogan, with only his story to rely on, could there not have also beed additional options for them to believe?
(4) Hogan bought it on Taiwan and is trying to pull a fast one on Giz?
(5) Hogan bought it off a skilled electronic engineer as a curiosity and is trying to pull and fast one on Giz?
(6) Other ways it could be a hoax.
How can one take the fact the Giz was convinced of his story 3 weeks later as proof that they were convinced it was not Hogans to sell without seeing it?
Upon hearing the story from Hogan, with only his story to rely on, could there not have also beed additional options for them to believe?
(4) Hogan bought it on Taiwan and is trying to pull a fast one on Giz?
(5) Hogan bought it off a skilled electronic engineer as a curiosity and is trying to pull and fast one on Giz?
(6) Other ways it could be a hoax.
How can one take the fact the Giz was convinced of his story 3 weeks later as proof that they were convinced it was not Hogans to sell without seeing it?
Hasn't Gizmodo itself presented the argument that they believed Hogan had done everything in his power to return the phone? In that case, hoax or not, they would be saying that they believed it was not his property. Am I working from that false premise? Could be, I suppose. If Gizmodo DID make that statement, your argument is trash. Otherwise...
So, if Gizmodo never made such a statement, I suppose the alternative circumstances you pose above are in the realm of logical possibilities. But they are nowhere near the realm of common sense. Let's go with that for a second...
Suppose someone walks up to you and says "this item is very valuable and isn't mine, but I want to sell it to you anyway". Then you buy it for $5K. Later, it turns out that the original statement was true, i.e. the item really did not belong to the person you bought it from. Somehow I don't think the answer "well, I really didn't believe him. I figured it might be his after all and he was just pulling a hoax on me" is going to be met with much head nodding. After all, you just placed a $5K bet on the fact that he was being honest.
Your devil's advocate tinkering is entertaining, and perhaps good exercise for the brain, but at the end of the day, a debate that tries to support the notion that Gizmodo did no wrong is going to lose. And just in case you want to say that you were never actually supporting any side, I would point out that that is the topic that brought me into this thread to begin with. My assertion is that Gizmodo is guilty of much, supported by the elements we have discussed today, and if you intend to engage on that assertion then eventually you should strongly make a counter point. At least one that is believable.
Hasn't Gizmodo itself presented the argument that they believed Hogan had done everything in his power to return the phone? In that case, hoax or not, they would be saying that they believed it was not his property. Am I working from that false premise? Could be, I suppose. If Gizmodo DID make that statement, your argument is trash. Otherwise...
They said, after they were able to examine it that they believed his story. They have not said they believed it at the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr
So, if Gizmodo never made such a statement, I suppose the alternative circumstances you pose above are in the realm of logical possibilities. But they are nowhere near the realm of common sense. Let's go with that for a second...
Suppose someone walks up to you and says "this item is very valuable and isn't mine, but I want to sell it to you anyway". Then you buy it for $5K. Later, it turns out that the original statement was true, i.e. the item really did not belong to the person you bought it from. Somehow I don't think the answer "well, I really didn't believe him. I figured it might be his after all and he was just pulling a hoax on me" is going to be met with much head nodding. After all, you just placed a $5K bet on the fact that he was being honest.
That's the thing. They hedged their bets. They agreed to pay him, but withheld a large portion for after confirmation. That by itself shows they didn't fully believe his story.
I could offer to sell you a device I bought in China. If I was knowledgeable and resourceful enough I might even be able to research genuine looking stickers to put on it. As a blogger in all things Apple, that might be good bait to get you interested. I could make up some story to try to convince you that it wasn't a counterfeit. My story might be good enough to tempt you into paying me for it, on the chance it was real, but being a smart person, you withhold part of the payment until it can be confirmed to be real. That would imply you were not sure of its status...that would change once you got a good look at and in it. If at that point you say you now believe my story, that doesn't retroactively mean you believed it when I first approached you. This is what SJR asserted...that their after-examinination story of believing Hogan means they knew it was stolen when he approached them. It is not proof of that.
This doesn't absolve Giz of anything.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thompr
Your devil's advocate tinkering is entertaining, and perhaps good exercise for the brain, but at the end of the day, a debate that tries to support the notion that Gizmodo did no wrong is going to lose. And just in case you want to say that you were never actually supporting any side, I would point out that that is the topic that brought me into this thread to begin with. My assertion is that Gizmodo is guilty of much, supported by the elements we have discussed today, and if you intend to engage on that assertion then eventually you should strongly make a counter point. At least one that is believable.
Thompson
I am in no way trying to say they did no wrong. I am simply pointing out that it is irrational to say that because Giz said they believed Hogan's story after they looked it over is proof that they knew it was stolen (or dropped out of Hogan's ass) before they ever saw the thing.
I am in no way trying to say they did no wrong. I am simply pointing out that it is irrational to say that because Giz said they believed Hogan's story after they looked it over is proof that they knew it was stolen (or dropped out of Hogan's ass) before they ever saw the thing.
What's irrational is your incessant defense of Gizmodo even though it's clear that they are in the wrong.
Let's try it one more time.
Someone approaches Gizmodo with what looks like a prototype Apple phone. They claim to have called Apple (although it's not clear that they actually claimed that or Gizmodo made it up, but we'll accept it for now).
Now, let's assume the following:
- You can't prove that it's an Apple phone
- Assume that they actually did call Apple
- The phone must either be an Apple phone or a non-Apple phone
Now, given those assumptions, Gizmodo had to be in the wrong. Let's say that Gizmodo believed it to be an Apple phone. If so, then Hogan had no right to sell it.
Now, let's say Gizmodo believed it NOT to be an Apple phone. If so, calling Apple would not be a reasonable effort to find the owner, so Hogan STILL would not have the right to sell it.
Also, Gizmodo apparently knew at the time who the phone belonged to because of the Facebook site. They even published that they knew the owner. Therefore, the finder has an affirmative obligation to return it.
More importantly, regardless of whether it's an Apple phone or not, under CA law, a 'found' item does not become the property of the finder for either 90 or 180 days - EVEN IF they make a reasonable effort to find the owner. So no matter what, Hogan did not have the right to sell it at that time.
Your incessant denial of the fact that Gizmodo was not only wrong, but had to know that they were wrong is just plain baffling.
What's irrational is your incessant defense of Gizmodo even though it's clear that they are in the wrong.
You are still so very confused. Is it so very for you to understand that I am not defending Giz in anyway here? You really don't understand that? I don't have time to hold your hand through this much longer. But let's give it a shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Someone approaches Gizmodo with what looks like a prototype Apple phone. They claim to have called Apple (although it's not clear that they actually claimed that or Gizmodo made it up, but we'll accept it for now).
Now, let's assume the following:
- You can't prove that it's an Apple phone
- Assume that they actually did call Apple
- The phone must either be an Apple phone or a non-Apple phone
Now, given those assumptions, Gizmodo had to be in the wrong. Let's say that Gizmodo believed it to be an Apple phone. If so, then Hogan had no right to sell it.
Now, let's say Gizmodo believed it NOT to be an Apple phone. If so, calling Apple would not be a reasonable effort to find the owner, so Hogan STILL would not have the right to sell it.
You almost had it there, but you lost it again. If Giz did not believe any, most or all of Hogan's story, then calling Apple, a part of his story, would be more than just not a reasonable effort. It would also have been unnecessary. If it wasn't Apple's, then it might have been Hogans. Therefore his tale of calling Apple wouldn't have been a legal requirement and would have been part of his tall tale.
Do you really not get that? Is there someone at you office you might ask to explain it to you? If Giz felt Hogan might not be being honest, they might have felt he was pulling a hoax and selling a phone he bought in China or Mexico.
See, his story to them wasn't proof to them of anything. IT WAS A STORY to get them to buy it from them. They obviously had reservation about his story, so the withheld part of the payment. It turns out most of his story was true and therefore he had no right to sell it and it was indeed stolen property. That doesn't retroactively mean Giz had to know this prior to seeing the phone.
I am going to be clear here again, hopefully you will understand these words...I will keep them small for you:
This doesn't defend or absolve Giz of anything. Nothing. At all.
That doesn't change the fact that your 'logic' of "well, Hogan told a story, therefore that is proof that Giz knew it was stolen" just doesn't hold water. YES IT WAS LIKELY STOLEN AND GIZ IS GUILTY. But them stating, after they looked at the phone, that they now believe Hogan's tale now DOES NOT PROVE THEY BELIEVED IT BEFORE THE LOOKED AT IT.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Also, Gizmodo apparently knew at the time who the phone belonged to because of the Facebook site. They even published that they knew the owner. Therefore, the finder has an affirmative obligation to return it.
You just made that up. Please keep your discussions honest. Hogan had the facebook info. The phone was none functional when Giz looked at it. All they had, again, was a name provided by Hogan. After invetigating that info, they were convinced Powell was the person that lost the phone and published it.
All the had when they spoke to Hogan was Hogan's word that he found a facebook acct for Powell but had no ability to show this acct on the iPhone. They published it after they investigated and determined that it was Powell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
More importantly, regardless of whether it's an Apple phone or not, under CA law, a 'found' item does not become the property of the finder for either 90 or 180 days - EVEN IF they make a reasonable effort to find the owner. So no matter what, Hogan did not have the right to sell it at that time.
Are you serious? Do you honestly think I am arguing otherwise? Of course Hogan had no right to sell it. No question. How many posts do I have to repeat this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Your incessant denial of the fact that Gizmodo was not only wrong, but had to know that they were wrong is just plain baffling.
I am sorry, but you must be hallucinating. I have not denied Giz was wrong. Again, please try to stay honest. Misrepresenting what I have said is insulting and shows either more confusion or dishonesty on your part.
I am stating that your logic was very poor. I had hoped you would understand basic logic and reasoning. False hope I suppose.
to refresh your memory, my point is:
Hogan's tale is not proof that Hogan's tale was true. Giz relating Hogans tale, after they were convinced it was true, is not proof that they believed his story when they first heard it. This doesn't defend or absolve Giz.
A lawyer should understand that. Even in court, testimony itself is not proof of the veracity of the testimony itself. A lawyer should understand and hopefully avoid such shallow, simple, circular logic. Hopefully.
You are still so very confused. Is it so very for you to understand that I am not defending Giz in anyway here? You really don't understand that? I don't have time to hold your hand through this much longer. But let's give it a shot.
Let's not. That's just a tired rhetorical trick you are attempting to employ. On top of the same old tired reasoning. Rhetorical doesn't play well when you strip away the fruffery and just examine the underlying statements made by the protagonists in this little drama. When compared to those statements your logic has all the power of three day wet toilet tissue.
There's no point in further discussion. You simply ignore everything that anyone posts while simultaneously ignoring all the facts of the case.
See, that where you continue to wallow in confusion. This discussion you and I have been having isn't about the case a whole. It was about a specific comment you made that was clearly illogical and wrong. It has been about your pattern of posting inaccurate information. I take issue with people that post dishonest or misleading information, and your posts always seem to drop in a few fallacies. I would write most of them off as you being misinformed, but when you continue to be aggressive in avoiding the discussion of the question of your 'mistakes', would would seem an intentional attempt to mislead.
Let's not. That's just a tired rhetorical trick you are attempting to employ. On top of the same old tired reasoning. Rhetorical doesn't play well when you strip away the fruffery and just examine the underlying statements made by the protagonists in this little drama. When compared to those statements your logic has all the power of three day wet toilet tissue.
HI HIRO! Nice to see you jump in again without any contribution to the discussion
See, that where you continue to wallow in confusion. This discussion you and I have been having isn't about the case a whole. It was about a specific comment you made that was clearly illogical and wrong. It has been about your pattern of posting inaccurate information. I take issue with people that post dishonest or misleading information, and your posts always seem to drop in a few fallacies. I would write most of them off as you being misinformed, but when you continue to be aggressive in avoiding the discussion of the question of your 'mistakes', would would seem an intentional attempt to mislead.
As I said, you're delusional - there's no point in your continuing to prove the point any further.
As I said, you're delusional - there's no point in your continuing to prove the point any further.
Given a choice between delusional or dishonest, I suppose I would be happy to choose delusional. We all have a choice in how we demonstrate our character and integrity. You have shown yours.
It's too bad really. Sometimes, you can have some interesting and insightful posts. But without integrity, does that matter?
Except that you're delusional about others' alleged dishonesty, as well.
Oh, this is a fun game you have. Let's see how his works:
Except that you're [dishonest] about others' alleged [delusions], as well.
Oh boy, that is fun. Is the rest of the game where you resort to insults when someone makes a request for some honesty from you?
To be honest, I still can't decide if your misrepresentation of facts is dishonesty or confusion. You don't seem very stupid and while I am obviously delusional, you generally seem fairly lucid. But you unable to stick to the facts and become quite enraged when facts are presented that appear to counter your position. I am honestly puzzled Seth, very puzzled.
Oh, this is a fun game you have. Let's see how his works:
Except that you're [dishonest] about others' alleged [delusions], as well.
Or, maybe we could look at what everyone else seems to be saying about you:
Hiro:
"That's just a tired rhetorical trick you are attempting to employ. On top of the same old tired reasoning."
thompr:
"Your devil's advocate tinkering is entertaining, and perhaps good exercise for the brain, but at the end of the day, a debate that tries to support the notion that Gizmodo did no wrong is going to lose. And just in case you want to say that you were never actually supporting any side, I would point out that that is the topic that brought me into this thread to begin with. My assertion is that Gizmodo is guilty of much, supported by the elements we have discussed today, and if you intend to engage on that assertion then eventually you should strongly make a counter point. At least one that is believable."
So no one seems to believe that you have any intelligent responses.
Or, maybe we could look at what everyone else seems to be saying about you:
Hiro:
"That's just a tired rhetorical trick you are attempting to employ. On top of the same old tired reasoning."
thompr:
"Your devil's advocate tinkering is entertaining, and perhaps good exercise for the brain, but at the end of the day, a debate that tries to support the notion that Gizmodo did no wrong is going to lose. And just in case you want to say that you were never actually supporting any side, I would point out that that is the topic that brought me into this thread to begin with. My assertion is that Gizmodo is guilty of much, supported by the elements we have discussed today, and if you intend to engage on that assertion then eventually you should strongly make a counter point. At least one that is believable."
So no one seems to believe that you have any intelligent responses.
Sure, some people don't like what I post. Hiro is an odd example for you to embrace, given his history. thompr might not believe I post intelligent responses, you would have to ask him. I suppose we could go browsing to find a few posters that have issues with your posts. There seem to be quite a few these days. In any case, is this still part of your game?
Is this really your best attempt at avoiding a little honesty? Perhaps my responses are less than intelligent. Perhaps they are over your head a bit. They are, however, honest. Can you even try to claim the same?
Comments
This is worse than talking to a wall. At least walls don't keep repeating the same inane response.
Go back and read what I wrote. Get someone to read it to you since you're apparently incapable of simple comprehension.
I am not repeating a response. I am wait for you to actually respond to my question.
Still waiting for you to tie them hearing Hogan's story as proof of them knowing it was stolen. I think you realize your mistake, hence you continuing to repeat the reasons you believe it was stolen property.
Let's play this simple game: Let's say it was stolen. Now that is out of the way, please don't present reasons it was stolen property, we get that. truly, I believe you. Really.
Now, how would hearing Hogan's story prove it was stolen? Like I said and you conveniently ignored, I could tell you all sorts of tall tales. My telling you these stories isn't proof that they are true. Could you even consider that Hogan, upstanding citizen that he is, might not be an entirely truthful individual? And that Giz might then have had doubts about all or parts of his story? That his story to Giz doesn't prove anything? That Giz's, 3 weeks later saying the now believe his story doesn't mean they believed it 3 weeks earlier? You stated that his story (or rather them retelling his story weeks later after convincing themselves it was real) was proof the knew at the time that it was stolen. Do you believe everything someone tells you?
His story wasn't proof of anything, let alone proof of what Giz knew. You have yet to present an argument that actual deals with this part of your logic gap...other than to continually repeat reasons that it was stolen. Strange. Almost seems intentionally obtuse.
Was there some other point you thought I was making or that you meant to make?
Thompson
Probably. I don't recall. Keep getting interrupted with work...
And yes, that is exactly why corporations implement such policies. It reduces the chance of accidents occurring.
I'm sure that that would be the case for any policy that Apple has in place for the prototype iPhone testing. And that's what most corporations would have you believe about all of their training too. But I have been involved in such "corporate training" exercises for decades now, first with the Air Force, then with Lockheed Martin, and finally with my present employer (I'll keep that personal, if you don't mind). And the way they are administered and enforced does absolutely nothing to reduce the chances of occurrence. But what it does do is transfer much of the responsibility onto the shoulders of individuals. This will depend on the details of the case, of course. But here, where the victim we're talking about is actually the company, I think their policies will probably help them out a great deal.
But accidents while acting as an agent of a corporation will still, often, result in the company being held responsible. If he was out with the device, testing it for Apple, then he was acting as an agent of Apple.
These policies, when made explicit and agreed to be the employee, and when the only victim is the company itself (as seems the case here, so far) often cause the light to fall on the specific parties that broke the rules (perhaps Powell) and/or the law (Hogan and Gizmodo).
Which is why I say it will come to the stolen property case. The fact that the lost item became a stolen item will play a huge role in deciding the trade secret violations issue. But that doesn't remove Apple's responsibility to have done as much as possible to keep it a secret nor the issue of if they did so.
I'm sure we'll find out that under the circumstances (i.e. that field testing must get done) that Apple did the best they could and that Gizmodo pulled a slick one to finish the deed.
THompson
I am not repeating a response. I am wait for you to actually respond to my question.
Still waiting for you to tie them hearing Hogan's story as proof of them knowing it was stolen.
Well, I think maybe you are not seeing the forest for the trees. The bottom line is that any way you cut it, after hearing Hogan's story, Gizmodo was damn sure that he wasn't the rightful owner. If you try to buy the iPhone at that point, you are buying stolen property.
Where the other poster is getting into trouble with you is that he is bothering to try to "cut it up" into possibilities. He should have just stated my bold sentence above and left it at that. Here's his cut up, though, not that it matters:
Do you agree that Hogan told Gizmodo that he attempted to return the phone by calling Apple Care? Even assuming they believe such a weird suggestion by Hogan, what's Gizmodo to make of it? Here are the possibilities, as far as they knew at that point:
(1) Apple is, in fact, the owner. In that case, Hogan is not the owner. Purchasing it so soon under this condition equates to purchasing stolen property.
(2) Apple is not actually the owner. In that case, Hogan hasn't made a sufficient attempt to contact the owner, and once again the property cannot be purchased.
Either way you cut it, Gizmodo knows after hearing Hogan's story that he is not the rightful owner.
All of this is entertaining, to say the least, because it doesn't seem like you've made any attempt whatsoever to suggest how there is any circumstance under which this could not be considered a case of receiving stolen merchandise.
It is clear that Gizmodo acquired the device through illegal means, and that trumps the negligence argument, so the trade secrets issue is not looking good either.
Interestingly enough, there is also the third charge: damaging property. Who can argue that one? At least its probably not a harsh punishment.
Thompson
Well, I think maybe you are not seeing the forest for the trees. The bottom line is that any way you cut it, after hearing Hogan's story, Gizmodo was damn sure that he wasn't the rightful owner. If you try to buy the iPhone at that point, you are buying stolen property.
Where the other poster is getting into trouble with you is that he is bothering to try to "cut it up" into possibilities. He should have just stated my bold sentence above and left it at that. Here's his cut up, though, not that it matters:
Do you agree that Hogan told Gizmodo that he attempted to return the phone by calling Apple Care? Even assuming they believe such a weird suggestion by Hogan, what's Gizmodo to make of it? Here are the possibilities, as far as they knew at that point:
(1) Apple is, in fact, the owner. In that case, Hogan is not the owner. Purchasing it so soon under this condition equates to purchasing stolen property.
(2) Apple is not actually the owner. In that case, Hogan hasn't made a sufficient attempt to contact the owner, and once again the property cannot be purchased.
Either way you cut it, Gizmodo knows after hearing Hogan's story that he is not the rightful owner.
All of this is entertaining, to say the least, because it doesn't seem like you've made any attempt whatsoever to suggest how there is any circumstance under which this could not be considered a case of receiving stolen merchandise.
It is clear that Gizmodo acquired the device through illegal means, and that trumps the negligence argument, so the trade secrets issue is not looking good either.
Interestingly enough, there is also the third charge: damaging property. Who can argue that one? At least its probably not a harsh punishment.
Thompson
Upon hearing the story from Hogan, with only his story to rely on, could there not have also beed additional options for them to believe?
(4) Hogan bought it on Taiwan and is trying to pull a fast one on Giz?
(5) Hogan bought it off a skilled electronic engineer as a curiosity and is trying to pull and fast one on Giz?
(6) Other ways it could be a hoax.
How can one take the fact the Giz was convinced of his story 3 weeks later as proof that they were convinced it was not Hogans to sell without seeing it?
Upon hearing the story from Hogan, with only his story to rely on, could there not have also beed additional options for them to believe?
(4) Hogan bought it on Taiwan and is trying to pull a fast one on Giz?
(5) Hogan bought it off a skilled electronic engineer as a curiosity and is trying to pull and fast one on Giz?
(6) Other ways it could be a hoax.
How can one take the fact the Giz was convinced of his story 3 weeks later as proof that they were convinced it was not Hogans to sell without seeing it?
Hasn't Gizmodo itself presented the argument that they believed Hogan had done everything in his power to return the phone? In that case, hoax or not, they would be saying that they believed it was not his property. Am I working from that false premise? Could be, I suppose. If Gizmodo DID make that statement, your argument is trash. Otherwise...
So, if Gizmodo never made such a statement, I suppose the alternative circumstances you pose above are in the realm of logical possibilities. But they are nowhere near the realm of common sense. Let's go with that for a second...
Suppose someone walks up to you and says "this item is very valuable and isn't mine, but I want to sell it to you anyway". Then you buy it for $5K. Later, it turns out that the original statement was true, i.e. the item really did not belong to the person you bought it from. Somehow I don't think the answer "well, I really didn't believe him. I figured it might be his after all and he was just pulling a hoax on me" is going to be met with much head nodding. After all, you just placed a $5K bet on the fact that he was being honest.
Your devil's advocate tinkering is entertaining, and perhaps good exercise for the brain, but at the end of the day, a debate that tries to support the notion that Gizmodo did no wrong is going to lose. And just in case you want to say that you were never actually supporting any side, I would point out that that is the topic that brought me into this thread to begin with. My assertion is that Gizmodo is guilty of much, supported by the elements we have discussed today, and if you intend to engage on that assertion then eventually you should strongly make a counter point. At least one that is believable.
Thompson
Hasn't Gizmodo itself presented the argument that they believed Hogan had done everything in his power to return the phone? In that case, hoax or not, they would be saying that they believed it was not his property. Am I working from that false premise? Could be, I suppose. If Gizmodo DID make that statement, your argument is trash. Otherwise...
They said, after they were able to examine it that they believed his story. They have not said they believed it at the time.
So, if Gizmodo never made such a statement, I suppose the alternative circumstances you pose above are in the realm of logical possibilities. But they are nowhere near the realm of common sense. Let's go with that for a second...
Suppose someone walks up to you and says "this item is very valuable and isn't mine, but I want to sell it to you anyway". Then you buy it for $5K. Later, it turns out that the original statement was true, i.e. the item really did not belong to the person you bought it from. Somehow I don't think the answer "well, I really didn't believe him. I figured it might be his after all and he was just pulling a hoax on me" is going to be met with much head nodding. After all, you just placed a $5K bet on the fact that he was being honest.
That's the thing. They hedged their bets. They agreed to pay him, but withheld a large portion for after confirmation. That by itself shows they didn't fully believe his story.
I could offer to sell you a device I bought in China. If I was knowledgeable and resourceful enough I might even be able to research genuine looking stickers to put on it. As a blogger in all things Apple, that might be good bait to get you interested. I could make up some story to try to convince you that it wasn't a counterfeit. My story might be good enough to tempt you into paying me for it, on the chance it was real, but being a smart person, you withhold part of the payment until it can be confirmed to be real. That would imply you were not sure of its status...that would change once you got a good look at and in it. If at that point you say you now believe my story, that doesn't retroactively mean you believed it when I first approached you. This is what SJR asserted...that their after-examinination story of believing Hogan means they knew it was stolen when he approached them. It is not proof of that.
This doesn't absolve Giz of anything.
Your devil's advocate tinkering is entertaining, and perhaps good exercise for the brain, but at the end of the day, a debate that tries to support the notion that Gizmodo did no wrong is going to lose. And just in case you want to say that you were never actually supporting any side, I would point out that that is the topic that brought me into this thread to begin with. My assertion is that Gizmodo is guilty of much, supported by the elements we have discussed today, and if you intend to engage on that assertion then eventually you should strongly make a counter point. At least one that is believable.
Thompson
I am in no way trying to say they did no wrong. I am simply pointing out that it is irrational to say that because Giz said they believed Hogan's story after they looked it over is proof that they knew it was stolen (or dropped out of Hogan's ass) before they ever saw the thing.
I am in no way trying to say they did no wrong. I am simply pointing out that it is irrational to say that because Giz said they believed Hogan's story after they looked it over is proof that they knew it was stolen (or dropped out of Hogan's ass) before they ever saw the thing.
What's irrational is your incessant defense of Gizmodo even though it's clear that they are in the wrong.
Let's try it one more time.
Someone approaches Gizmodo with what looks like a prototype Apple phone. They claim to have called Apple (although it's not clear that they actually claimed that or Gizmodo made it up, but we'll accept it for now).
Now, let's assume the following:
- You can't prove that it's an Apple phone
- Assume that they actually did call Apple
- The phone must either be an Apple phone or a non-Apple phone
Now, given those assumptions, Gizmodo had to be in the wrong. Let's say that Gizmodo believed it to be an Apple phone. If so, then Hogan had no right to sell it.
Now, let's say Gizmodo believed it NOT to be an Apple phone. If so, calling Apple would not be a reasonable effort to find the owner, so Hogan STILL would not have the right to sell it.
Also, Gizmodo apparently knew at the time who the phone belonged to because of the Facebook site. They even published that they knew the owner. Therefore, the finder has an affirmative obligation to return it.
More importantly, regardless of whether it's an Apple phone or not, under CA law, a 'found' item does not become the property of the finder for either 90 or 180 days - EVEN IF they make a reasonable effort to find the owner. So no matter what, Hogan did not have the right to sell it at that time.
Your incessant denial of the fact that Gizmodo was not only wrong, but had to know that they were wrong is just plain baffling.
But why'd she even let the guy near her computer? Surely he has his own?....Or can get one for $5000?
What's irrational is your incessant defense of Gizmodo even though it's clear that they are in the wrong.
You are still so very confused. Is it so very for you to understand that I am not defending Giz in anyway here? You really don't understand that? I don't have time to hold your hand through this much longer. But let's give it a shot.
Someone approaches Gizmodo with what looks like a prototype Apple phone. They claim to have called Apple (although it's not clear that they actually claimed that or Gizmodo made it up, but we'll accept it for now).
Now, let's assume the following:
- You can't prove that it's an Apple phone
- Assume that they actually did call Apple
- The phone must either be an Apple phone or a non-Apple phone
Now, given those assumptions, Gizmodo had to be in the wrong. Let's say that Gizmodo believed it to be an Apple phone. If so, then Hogan had no right to sell it.
Now, let's say Gizmodo believed it NOT to be an Apple phone. If so, calling Apple would not be a reasonable effort to find the owner, so Hogan STILL would not have the right to sell it.
You almost had it there, but you lost it again. If Giz did not believe any, most or all of Hogan's story, then calling Apple, a part of his story, would be more than just not a reasonable effort. It would also have been unnecessary. If it wasn't Apple's, then it might have been Hogans. Therefore his tale of calling Apple wouldn't have been a legal requirement and would have been part of his tall tale.
Do you really not get that? Is there someone at you office you might ask to explain it to you? If Giz felt Hogan might not be being honest, they might have felt he was pulling a hoax and selling a phone he bought in China or Mexico.
See, his story to them wasn't proof to them of anything. IT WAS A STORY to get them to buy it from them. They obviously had reservation about his story, so the withheld part of the payment. It turns out most of his story was true and therefore he had no right to sell it and it was indeed stolen property. That doesn't retroactively mean Giz had to know this prior to seeing the phone.
I am going to be clear here again, hopefully you will understand these words...I will keep them small for you:
This doesn't defend or absolve Giz of anything. Nothing. At all.
That doesn't change the fact that your 'logic' of "well, Hogan told a story, therefore that is proof that Giz knew it was stolen" just doesn't hold water. YES IT WAS LIKELY STOLEN AND GIZ IS GUILTY. But them stating, after they looked at the phone, that they now believe Hogan's tale now DOES NOT PROVE THEY BELIEVED IT BEFORE THE LOOKED AT IT.
Also, Gizmodo apparently knew at the time who the phone belonged to because of the Facebook site. They even published that they knew the owner. Therefore, the finder has an affirmative obligation to return it.
You just made that up. Please keep your discussions honest. Hogan had the facebook info. The phone was none functional when Giz looked at it. All they had, again, was a name provided by Hogan. After invetigating that info, they were convinced Powell was the person that lost the phone and published it.
All the had when they spoke to Hogan was Hogan's word that he found a facebook acct for Powell but had no ability to show this acct on the iPhone. They published it after they investigated and determined that it was Powell.
More importantly, regardless of whether it's an Apple phone or not, under CA law, a 'found' item does not become the property of the finder for either 90 or 180 days - EVEN IF they make a reasonable effort to find the owner. So no matter what, Hogan did not have the right to sell it at that time.
Are you serious? Do you honestly think I am arguing otherwise? Of course Hogan had no right to sell it. No question. How many posts do I have to repeat this?
Your incessant denial of the fact that Gizmodo was not only wrong, but had to know that they were wrong is just plain baffling.
I am sorry, but you must be hallucinating. I have not denied Giz was wrong. Again, please try to stay honest. Misrepresenting what I have said is insulting and shows either more confusion or dishonesty on your part.
I am stating that your logic was very poor. I had hoped you would understand basic logic and reasoning. False hope I suppose.
to refresh your memory, my point is:
Hogan's tale is not proof that Hogan's tale was true. Giz relating Hogans tale, after they were convinced it was true, is not proof that they believed his story when they first heard it. This doesn't defend or absolve Giz.
A lawyer should understand that. Even in court, testimony itself is not proof of the veracity of the testimony itself. A lawyer should understand and hopefully avoid such shallow, simple, circular logic. Hopefully.
get it yet?
get it yet?
Yes, I get it. You're delusional.
There's no point in further discussion. You simply ignore everything that anyone posts while simultaneously ignoring all the facts of the case.
You are still so very confused. Is it so very for you to understand that I am not defending Giz in anyway here? You really don't understand that? I don't have time to hold your hand through this much longer. But let's give it a shot.
Let's not. That's just a tired rhetorical trick you are attempting to employ. On top of the same old tired reasoning. Rhetorical doesn't play well when you strip away the fruffery and just examine the underlying statements made by the protagonists in this little drama. When compared to those statements your logic has all the power of three day wet toilet tissue.
Yes, I get it. You're delusional.
There's no point in further discussion. You simply ignore everything that anyone posts while simultaneously ignoring all the facts of the case.
See, that where you continue to wallow in confusion. This discussion you and I have been having isn't about the case a whole. It was about a specific comment you made that was clearly illogical and wrong. It has been about your pattern of posting inaccurate information. I take issue with people that post dishonest or misleading information, and your posts always seem to drop in a few fallacies. I would write most of them off as you being misinformed, but when you continue to be aggressive in avoiding the discussion of the question of your 'mistakes', would would seem an intentional attempt to mislead.
Let's not. That's just a tired rhetorical trick you are attempting to employ. On top of the same old tired reasoning. Rhetorical doesn't play well when you strip away the fruffery and just examine the underlying statements made by the protagonists in this little drama. When compared to those statements your logic has all the power of three day wet toilet tissue.
HI HIRO! Nice to see you jump in again without any contribution to the discussion
See, that where you continue to wallow in confusion. This discussion you and I have been having isn't about the case a whole. It was about a specific comment you made that was clearly illogical and wrong. It has been about your pattern of posting inaccurate information. I take issue with people that post dishonest or misleading information, and your posts always seem to drop in a few fallacies. I would write most of them off as you being misinformed, but when you continue to be aggressive in avoiding the discussion of the question of your 'mistakes', would would seem an intentional attempt to mislead.
As I said, you're delusional - there's no point in your continuing to prove the point any further.
As I said, you're delusional - there's no point in your continuing to prove the point any further.
Given a choice between delusional or dishonest, I suppose I would be happy to choose delusional. We all have a choice in how we demonstrate our character and integrity. You have shown yours.
It's too bad really. Sometimes, you can have some interesting and insightful posts. But without integrity, does that matter?
Given a choice between delusional or dishonest, I suppose I would be happy to choose delusional.
Except that you're delusional about others' alleged dishonesty, as well.
Except that you're delusional about others' alleged dishonesty, as well.
Oh, this is a fun game you have. Let's see how his works:
Except that you're [dishonest] about others' alleged [delusions], as well.
Oh boy, that is fun. Is the rest of the game where you resort to insults when someone makes a request for some honesty from you?
To be honest, I still can't decide if your misrepresentation of facts is dishonesty or confusion. You don't seem very stupid and while I am obviously delusional, you generally seem fairly lucid. But you unable to stick to the facts and become quite enraged when facts are presented that appear to counter your position. I am honestly puzzled Seth, very puzzled.
Oh, this is a fun game you have. Let's see how his works:
Except that you're [dishonest] about others' alleged [delusions], as well.
Or, maybe we could look at what everyone else seems to be saying about you:
Hiro:
"That's just a tired rhetorical trick you are attempting to employ. On top of the same old tired reasoning."
thompr:
"Your devil's advocate tinkering is entertaining, and perhaps good exercise for the brain, but at the end of the day, a debate that tries to support the notion that Gizmodo did no wrong is going to lose. And just in case you want to say that you were never actually supporting any side, I would point out that that is the topic that brought me into this thread to begin with. My assertion is that Gizmodo is guilty of much, supported by the elements we have discussed today, and if you intend to engage on that assertion then eventually you should strongly make a counter point. At least one that is believable."
So no one seems to believe that you have any intelligent responses.
Or, maybe we could look at what everyone else seems to be saying about you:
Hiro:
"That's just a tired rhetorical trick you are attempting to employ. On top of the same old tired reasoning."
thompr:
"Your devil's advocate tinkering is entertaining, and perhaps good exercise for the brain, but at the end of the day, a debate that tries to support the notion that Gizmodo did no wrong is going to lose. And just in case you want to say that you were never actually supporting any side, I would point out that that is the topic that brought me into this thread to begin with. My assertion is that Gizmodo is guilty of much, supported by the elements we have discussed today, and if you intend to engage on that assertion then eventually you should strongly make a counter point. At least one that is believable."
So no one seems to believe that you have any intelligent responses.
Sure, some people don't like what I post. Hiro is an odd example for you to embrace, given his history. thompr might not believe I post intelligent responses, you would have to ask him. I suppose we could go browsing to find a few posters that have issues with your posts. There seem to be quite a few these days. In any case, is this still part of your game?
Is this really your best attempt at avoiding a little honesty? Perhaps my responses are less than intelligent. Perhaps they are over your head a bit. They are, however, honest. Can you even try to claim the same?