If you need to ground your ethics on your fundamentalist reading of what you say are 'devine' texts then I wouldn't expect you to actually understand how what I have described is not only a workable ethics, but is, in fact, an important idea underpinning our judicial system (and constitution). <hr></blockquote>
Sorry, but once you take the truth out of the truth what is it? You can tell me that the truth is realtive, as is morality and right and wrong, but as any who have read my posts before know, I disagree. It is not that I do not understand what you are syaing, I am not stupid. I disagree with your stand. Why is it that if someone diagrees with anothers stand they are somehow stupid and cannot possibly understand?
[quote]First I would say that my ethics are closely alligned with the Judaic Theologian and philosopher Emmanuel Levinas: who states that Ethics precede Ontology (systematic defining of the 'essences' of phenomena) in that our relationship to the Other actually conditions and precedes our ideas of essences...
this is wordy and complicated, but: this means that, in our relations with Otherness we can either start from an ontology and thus prescribe the way in which that Other should be, ie: to enclose it in our definition> Or, we can start from the face-face encounter with that Other and allow a dialogue to ensue, where essences are in the flow of the ethical responce to that other. How we relate to Otherness (others and Otherness as in 'what is not us') is our ultimate ethical relationship even to the 'essences' of the world.<hr></blockquote>
Otherness? The Other? Essences? Takes the teeth right out of anything you believe if there is nothing there to base or start the relationship. It seems that you approach this as less of a divine being, and more of a anything not us approach. God is in everything so everything is in that way God? Am I misreading you here?
[quote]This is an Ethics of openness, grounded in the reality of the responcibility to the dialogue with Otherness: a responcibility to see that what faces you in a dialogue with the Other, is always beyond facile systematizing. <hr></blockquote>
So to be a fundamentalist one must put forth no effort or study of their beliefs as they are already laid out for them? I can see how some approach a relationship with God as a canned relationship, but to approach it in the way you have outlined is too open-ended. God left us His word in order to point us in His direction. We cannot find the way on our own, it is not in us.
[quote]Needless to say that the 'Other' stands for more than simply a 'person' . (G-d?). though a person-person dialogue is the implicit point of departure . . after all that is the arena for the ethical situation . . and implicit in there, since our understanding of ourselves and the world are related to this primary moment of relating to the absolute Other: we find ourselves in a relationship of Otherness to ourselves as well. so, this Ethcs is also about how we relate to ourselves, the other within.<hr></blockquote>
Ok, your mumbo jumbo lost me there. Can you put that in plain English? We relate to ourselves in "Otherness"? Are we God now too? Chill out on the PhD lingo and talk like you were on the street with someone. How do you expect anyone to understand you when you couch your posts in lingo and high fallutin' words?
<strong>So, does terrorism and fundamentalism go hand in hand? What about the Bask country...?
And the sabotage bombings from the resistance forces in France, Denmark, Norway etc. during WWII?</strong><hr></blockquote>Those weren't terrorism - they were military targets.
I dislike all organized religion in general. Not becuase im some bigot who's racist against religious people. But becuase when I look around and through history I see all evil things that religion has brought to this world. War, genocide, massacres, persecution, the list goes on and on. When I think of all the people killed, all the civilizations destroyed (colonization) and all the racist bigotry that has been spawned by organized religion I ask, what is all this about?
Now you must separate the act of beleiving in a god, worshiping him/her/them. And participating in a organized religion. I think believing in a god is a great thing. People have pulled themselves and their lives back together becuase of faith. But you dont need some pastor preaching from the pulpet to give you a religious experience. Think about it. If there is a god, and we are his children. Would he like you to worship him in some church. Or in the way which you could be the most sincere in your worship and thanks. For me a religous experience is mountainbiking at the top of a mountain. With the sun setting casting streaking of light through the trees as the wind wistles in my ears. I honor my god at the times that I feel the most blessed, not when I have been dragged to church on a sunday morning.
<strong>I dislike all organized religion in general. Not becuase im some bigot who's racist against religious people. But becuase when I look around and through history I see all evil things that religion has brought to this world. War, genocide, massacres, persecution, the list goes on and on. When I think of all the people killed, all the civilizations destroyed (colonization) and all the racist bigotry that has been spawned by organized religion I ask, what is all this about?
Now you must separate the act of beleiving in a god, worshiping him/her/them. And participating in a organized religion. I think believing in a god is a great thing. People have pulled themselves and their lives back together becuase of faith. But you dont need some pastor preaching from the pulpet to give you a religious experience. Think about it. If there is a god, and we are his children. Would he like you to worship him in some church. Or in the way which you could be the most sincere in your worship and thanks. For me a religous experience is mountainbiking at the top of a mountain. With the sun setting casting streaking of light through the trees as the wind wistles in my ears. I honor my god at the times that I feel the most blessed, not when I have been dragged to church on a sunday morning.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There are some good points in your post. We are God's children. And he does not want us to worship him because we were dragged to some church to do it. He wants our praise and worship because we want to give it. Not because we were frightened into giving it or else we would go to hell.
However there are a few points that need to be made clear. There is a reason for Pastors, and missionaries and prophets and Apostles and such. God put them on this earth and appointed them to watch over his "church". The church is not a building we go to. We ARE the church. "Know ye not, ye are the temple of the Holy Spirit." But to completely reject gathering with fellow believers does take it a few steps too far. While you are out communing with God, are you praying? Praising? Interceding for your friends and neighbors? Reading your bible? Sure, riding a bike in the mountains will minister to you, but God also asks that you minister to him, that is your sole purpose in this life. The rest is just stuff designed to sidetrack you.
I am not trying to put you down or even preach to you, as I said, I like much of what you said. But I do not think you have it in the right perspective, and could not back it up biblically.
That was actually pretty interesting. Basically the monothiestic religions have more of a tendency to wage holy wars than the polythiestic ones such as hinduism, buddhism, etc. It all stems from the fact that since there is only one God then he is the only true God and all people on earth should worship him where as in eastern religion there are many gods and you can worship whatever you want.. This results in missionaries and proselitizers (not necessarily bad but it can easily get out of control). Not so much judaism as in christianity and islam.
but I don't think this study says that monotheistic religions are a bad thing but how easy they justify religious wars which are bad. And how hypocritical the followers have become because the root teachings of these religions are to love thy God AND thy NEIGHBOR (as in fellow human regardless of religion).
Okay maybe I went a little bit to far in denouncing all organized religion. That was not quite what I was going for. And no I cannot biblically back up my argument, for I have never read the Bible, nor do I have any inclination to. If god wishes to communicate with us I would like him to give us some sort of sign, rather than dictating to someone who may twist those great words to his own gains. But that is a whole other can of worms for another discussion.
My point in my original argument was not that I hate it when people of similar thinking group together. That is a human reaction. And the people being the church I think is a good thing. The problem I see is when the leaders of the congregation begin dictating what their followers should do. Saying that God has spoken to them about how his subjects should live their lives. Something makes me distrust that God would really want to dictate how and why we should live our lives. Now not coveting thy neighbors wife and all is good stuff. To me however I would think that god would like us to live our lives as we should see fit. Not make war on others in his name, not pray 3 times a day if it would not be sincere, etc etc. If we are God's children then he should know better than anyone what our nature is. How volatile and temperous we can be. Didnt he forsee that by introducing himself to us through biblical texts thus forming the major religons that he could possibly be lighting a fuse that would create so many injustices for our future?
Also if we are to all join an organized religon then which shal we join? Which is correct in its interpretation of the Lord, and which is wrong? Are any wrong? Are any right? And if God really wanted us to worship his greatness wouldnt he have insitaged, nurtured those that where right. While frowning upon religions that where incorrect? Or does he not care how/why we worship him, as long as his brilliance is atoned for?
I guess what im circuling around at is the frauds that I see so readily apparent in the foundation that gives ministers and popes and priests their power. And their 'right' to dictate how we should worship god. Im not ruling out the fact that the large majority of religous leaders are good-hearted and uncorrupted. But the problem is that we are such a volatial species that maybe no one should be put into a position of supreme power of a people, with the ability to dictate who they worship, how they worship, who they love, and who they hate. Maybe God should never have opened this door of corruption and miss-use. Maybe he errored.
How he could he have overlooked the numerous injustices that would undoubtebly be spawned by the creation of the biblical texts still alludes me.
But none the matter, I am not subjected to religous persecution like my forefathers where. I am free to worship god in anyway shape or form that I so choose. I prefer it this way.
Okay maybe I went a little bit to far in denouncing all organized religion. That was not quite what I was going for. And no I cannot biblically back up my argument, for I have never read the Bible, nor do I have any inclination to. If god wishes to communicate with us I would like him to give us some sort of sign, rather than dictating to someone who may twist those great words to his own gains. But that is a whole other can of worms for another discussion. <hr></blockquote>
Never read the Bible and then you post this. Most of what you ask and question is in the Bible and I am going to endeavor to show you some of it. However, I have a better understanding of what you mean and I appreciate that you are being concise and not resorting to name calling and such.
I want to keep everything in context as much as possible so you would not think I am trying to twist the meanings so some quotations may be a bit longer than usual...
You ask that God give you a sign instead of just having you read the bible. A couple of verses come to mind on this one.
First Jesus' direct words on the subject of needing to see a sign.
Matthew 16
1 And the Pharisees and Sad'ducees came, and to test him they asked him to show them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered them, "When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather; for the sky is red.' 3 And in the morning, 'It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So he left them and departed.
and a parable by Jesus:
Luke 16
19 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz'arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"
Both passages speak of people saying just show us a sign and we will believe. And both times Jesus comes to the same answer. The signs have been shown, and still people do not believe. There will likely be no more signs, if you don't believe now with the evidence presented, you likely would not believe if an Angel appeared behind you and gave you the words right from God himself. However, miracles still happen, and God still shows himself, most people just write them off as phenomena though.
[quote]My point in my original argument was not that I hate it when people of similar thinking group together. That is a human reaction. And the people being the church I think is a good thing. The problem I see is when the leaders of the congregation begin dictating what their followers should do. Saying that God has spoken to them about how his subjects should live their lives. Something makes me distrust that God would really want to dictate how and why we should live our lives.<hr></blockquote>
God has given us free will and has allowed you teh choice to have that opinion. Do you distrust your parents too? They dictated your life for at least the first 12-15 years of it telling you how to act properly and why you should be that way. Is this really so different?
[quote]Now not coveting thy neighbors wife and all is good stuff. To me however I would think that god would like us to live our lives as we should see fit. Not make war on others in his name, not pray 3 times a day if it would not be sincere, etc etc.<hr></blockquote>
Another verse comes to mind, also words of Jesus:
Mark 12
38 And in his teaching he said, "Beware of the scribes, who like to go about in long robes, and to have salutations in the market places 39 and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, 40 who devour widows' houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation."
So in that sense you are right. Prayers to seem just and holy are not what God is looking for.
However for us to live our lives as we see fit is not at all what God wants.
Another verse of Jesus' teachings:
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Living the way you want to all the time is not going through the narrow way, that is a very wide path...
[quote]If we are God's children then he should know better than anyone what our nature is. How volatile and temperous we can be. Didnt he forsee that by introducing himself to us through biblical texts thus forming the major religons that he could possibly be lighting a fuse that would create so many injustices for our future? <hr></blockquote>
Yes we are God's children. And He does know our nature backwards and forwards, inside and out. That is why Jesus was sent to earth to die on the cross for us. We cannot escape our nature and thus have no chance without that sacrifice.
As far as the introduction of God through holy texts is concerned, he started off by seeing us in person. In the Garden of Eden in Genesis man walked with God. Then we sinned and brought that to an end. Next he tried to get close to his chosen people, the Israelites in Exodus. He even came down Himself and spoke to his people:
18 Now when all the people perceived the thunderings and the lightnings and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled; and they stood afar off, 19 and said to Moses, "You speak to us, and we will hear; but let not God speak to us, lest we die." 20 And Moses said to the people, "Do not fear; for God has come to prove you, and that the fear of him may be before your eyes, that you may not sin."
And the people pushed him away.
[quote]Also if we are to all join an organized religon then which shal we join? Which is correct in its interpretation of the Lord, and which is wrong? Are any wrong? Are any right? And if God really wanted us to worship his greatness wouldnt he have insitaged, nurtured those that where right. While frowning upon religions that where incorrect? Or does he not care how/why we worship him, as long as his brilliance is atoned for?<hr></blockquote>
This I could give you my honest opinion on, but you would only take it as such, and opinion. However God does frown on religions that are incorrect and as you read through the Bible you see the many ways he deals with it. Everything from genocide of a culture that was especially evil, to Sodom and Gomorrah (destroyed by the wrath of God by fire from heaven), to sending his people into slavery when they started worshipping God "in their own way". Believe me, He is watching and cares. There are more instances, but I think you get where I am going with this.
[quote]I guess what im circuling around at is the frauds that I see so readily apparent in the foundation that gives ministers and popes and priests their power. And their 'right' to dictate how we should worship god. Im not ruling out the fact that the large majority of religous leaders are good-hearted and uncorrupted. But the problem is that we are such a volatial species that maybe no one should be put into a position of supreme power of a people, with the ability to dictate who they worship, how they worship, who they love, and who they hate. Maybe God should never have opened this door of corruption and miss-use. Maybe he errored. <hr></blockquote>
God created people to show His glory and for relationship with him. And he also appointed people to lead his believers. However, we are not supposed to blindly follow then in whatever they say. We are to test their teachings and be watchful that they are not twisting the word. This was brought up in the New Testament.
1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.
[quote]How he could he have overlooked the numerous injustices that would undoubtebly be spawned by the creation of the biblical texts still alludes me.
But none the matter, I am not subjected to religous persecution like my forefathers where. I am free to worship god in anyway shape or form that I so choose. I prefer it this way.<hr></blockquote>
It eludes me as well, but He did not overlook it, and I believe that it greatly saddens Him that what he meant for our edification and good, is used for injustice as well. But now you are back to human nature and testing the spirits...
2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Whoa, that was more of a sermon than I intended. Hope you did not just turn it off after the first passage.
Humanity would be no worse off without organized religion. It is the greatest mechanism for mass manipulation, fearmongering, wars, strife and every imaginable evil going. Organized religions (big corporate religion) are the creations of human beings, mechanisms for worldly and material things and gain, rather than the ethical and spiritual uplifting of humankind. The best things to come out of big religion are the festivals, community events, and *some* of the music. It's such a shame that in the 21st century, the greater majority of the world prefers to suspend rationality and parrot medieval mumbo jumbo.
(Jesus Christ himself advocated individual private spirituality over mass and visible piety:
[quote]Originally posted by Samantha Joanne Ollendale:
<strong>It is the greatest mechanism for mass manipulation, fearmongering, wars, strife and every imaginable evil going.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's people's fault, not religion's. It's not like these religions actually condone this stuff. Blame people for being stupid, not religion for being manipulative. Let's face it, people are a real problem. We would be better off without them.
BTW, rationality is a part of religion. Just look at Islam in general from the 9th-17th centuries. While Christians were busy being medeival, Muslims pushed humanity forward (with plenty of war in there for good measure, that's never stopped). You've been reading too much A.D. White.
The sad thing is that it appears as if Islam has been going backwards in religious evolution. It could be the clash with western society that sent it spiraling down a dark path.
NoahJ, you have a good command of the bible. Did you have any theologic schooling?
[quote]That's people's fault, not religion's. It's not like these religions actually condone this stuff. Blame people for being stupid, not religion for being manipulative. Let's face it, people are a real problem. We would be better off without them.<hr></blockquote>
!!!!! chuckle!
but...sheeeesh...if you read my post, I stated that religions are peoples' creations. Forget all the 'holy', 'paranormal', 'miraculous' 'god references' baggage; those are merely tools for deception. Ask any competent magician; they are well versed in the art of distracting people. But perhaps I omitted that religions are maintained by people as well....and usually for purposes of material gain than enlightenment. Genuine spirituality requires no organization, just a private one-on-one communication between a human being and its "creator" (for those who acknowledge a "creator"). A "menage-a-millions" is/was not the intent of bona-fide spiritual teachers.
<strong>NoahJ, you have a good command of the bible. Did you have any theologic schooling?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have had a bit of schooling, but it was never my major. Mostly Bible as Literature type classes. What I know for the most part is due to personal study and paying attention in Church.
Comments
If you need to ground your ethics on your fundamentalist reading of what you say are 'devine' texts then I wouldn't expect you to actually understand how what I have described is not only a workable ethics, but is, in fact, an important idea underpinning our judicial system (and constitution). <hr></blockquote>
Sorry, but once you take the truth out of the truth what is it? You can tell me that the truth is realtive, as is morality and right and wrong, but as any who have read my posts before know, I disagree. It is not that I do not understand what you are syaing, I am not stupid. I disagree with your stand. Why is it that if someone diagrees with anothers stand they are somehow stupid and cannot possibly understand?
[quote]First I would say that my ethics are closely alligned with the Judaic Theologian and philosopher Emmanuel Levinas: who states that Ethics precede Ontology (systematic defining of the 'essences' of phenomena) in that our relationship to the Other actually conditions and precedes our ideas of essences...
this is wordy and complicated, but: this means that, in our relations with Otherness we can either start from an ontology and thus prescribe the way in which that Other should be, ie: to enclose it in our definition> Or, we can start from the face-face encounter with that Other and allow a dialogue to ensue, where essences are in the flow of the ethical responce to that other. How we relate to Otherness (others and Otherness as in 'what is not us') is our ultimate ethical relationship even to the 'essences' of the world.<hr></blockquote>
Otherness? The Other? Essences? Takes the teeth right out of anything you believe if there is nothing there to base or start the relationship. It seems that you approach this as less of a divine being, and more of a anything not us approach. God is in everything so everything is in that way God? Am I misreading you here?
[quote]This is an Ethics of openness, grounded in the reality of the responcibility to the dialogue with Otherness: a responcibility to see that what faces you in a dialogue with the Other, is always beyond facile systematizing. <hr></blockquote>
So to be a fundamentalist one must put forth no effort or study of their beliefs as they are already laid out for them? I can see how some approach a relationship with God as a canned relationship, but to approach it in the way you have outlined is too open-ended. God left us His word in order to point us in His direction. We cannot find the way on our own, it is not in us.
[quote]Needless to say that the 'Other' stands for more than simply a 'person' . (G-d?). though a person-person dialogue is the implicit point of departure . . after all that is the arena for the ethical situation . . and implicit in there, since our understanding of ourselves and the world are related to this primary moment of relating to the absolute Other: we find ourselves in a relationship of Otherness to ourselves as well. so, this Ethcs is also about how we relate to ourselves, the other within.<hr></blockquote>
Ok, your mumbo jumbo lost me there. Can you put that in plain English? We relate to ourselves in "Otherness"? Are we God now too? Chill out on the PhD lingo and talk like you were on the street with someone. How do you expect anyone to understand you when you couch your posts in lingo and high fallutin' words?
And the sabotage bombings from the resistance forces in France, Denmark, Norway etc. during WWII?
that's the mick calling the irishman a nigger turned inside-out....
ain't it?
cuss
p.s. pot kettle black
<strong>So, does terrorism and fundamentalism go hand in hand? What about the Bask country...?
And the sabotage bombings from the resistance forces in France, Denmark, Norway etc. during WWII?</strong><hr></blockquote>Those weren't terrorism - they were military targets.
Now you must separate the act of beleiving in a god, worshiping him/her/them. And participating in a organized religion. I think believing in a god is a great thing. People have pulled themselves and their lives back together becuase of faith. But you dont need some pastor preaching from the pulpet to give you a religious experience. Think about it. If there is a god, and we are his children. Would he like you to worship him in some church. Or in the way which you could be the most sincere in your worship and thanks. For me a religous experience is mountainbiking at the top of a mountain. With the sun setting casting streaking of light through the trees as the wind wistles in my ears. I honor my god at the times that I feel the most blessed, not when I have been dragged to church on a sunday morning.
<strong>I dislike all organized religion in general. Not becuase im some bigot who's racist against religious people. But becuase when I look around and through history I see all evil things that religion has brought to this world. War, genocide, massacres, persecution, the list goes on and on. When I think of all the people killed, all the civilizations destroyed (colonization) and all the racist bigotry that has been spawned by organized religion I ask, what is all this about?
Now you must separate the act of beleiving in a god, worshiping him/her/them. And participating in a organized religion. I think believing in a god is a great thing. People have pulled themselves and their lives back together becuase of faith. But you dont need some pastor preaching from the pulpet to give you a religious experience. Think about it. If there is a god, and we are his children. Would he like you to worship him in some church. Or in the way which you could be the most sincere in your worship and thanks. For me a religous experience is mountainbiking at the top of a mountain. With the sun setting casting streaking of light through the trees as the wind wistles in my ears. I honor my god at the times that I feel the most blessed, not when I have been dragged to church on a sunday morning.</strong><hr></blockquote>
There are some good points in your post. We are God's children. And he does not want us to worship him because we were dragged to some church to do it. He wants our praise and worship because we want to give it. Not because we were frightened into giving it or else we would go to hell.
However there are a few points that need to be made clear. There is a reason for Pastors, and missionaries and prophets and Apostles and such. God put them on this earth and appointed them to watch over his "church". The church is not a building we go to. We ARE the church. "Know ye not, ye are the temple of the Holy Spirit." But to completely reject gathering with fellow believers does take it a few steps too far. While you are out communing with God, are you praying? Praising? Interceding for your friends and neighbors? Reading your bible? Sure, riding a bike in the mountains will minister to you, but God also asks that you minister to him, that is your sole purpose in this life. The rest is just stuff designed to sidetrack you.
I am not trying to put you down or even preach to you, as I said, I like much of what you said. But I do not think you have it in the right perspective, and could not back it up biblically.
but I don't think this study says that monotheistic religions are a bad thing but how easy they justify religious wars which are bad. And how hypocritical the followers have become because the root teachings of these religions are to love thy God AND thy NEIGHBOR (as in fellow human regardless of religion).
<strong>The word church actually means 'congregation'. As in congregation of people.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I understand what the menaing of the word church is. However, the building is not the church. The people are.
My point in my original argument was not that I hate it when people of similar thinking group together. That is a human reaction. And the people being the church I think is a good thing. The problem I see is when the leaders of the congregation begin dictating what their followers should do. Saying that God has spoken to them about how his subjects should live their lives. Something makes me distrust that God would really want to dictate how and why we should live our lives. Now not coveting thy neighbors wife and all is good stuff. To me however I would think that god would like us to live our lives as we should see fit. Not make war on others in his name, not pray 3 times a day if it would not be sincere, etc etc. If we are God's children then he should know better than anyone what our nature is. How volatile and temperous we can be. Didnt he forsee that by introducing himself to us through biblical texts thus forming the major religons that he could possibly be lighting a fuse that would create so many injustices for our future?
Also if we are to all join an organized religon then which shal we join? Which is correct in its interpretation of the Lord, and which is wrong? Are any wrong? Are any right? And if God really wanted us to worship his greatness wouldnt he have insitaged, nurtured those that where right. While frowning upon religions that where incorrect? Or does he not care how/why we worship him, as long as his brilliance is atoned for?
I guess what im circuling around at is the frauds that I see so readily apparent in the foundation that gives ministers and popes and priests their power. And their 'right' to dictate how we should worship god. Im not ruling out the fact that the large majority of religous leaders are good-hearted and uncorrupted. But the problem is that we are such a volatial species that maybe no one should be put into a position of supreme power of a people, with the ability to dictate who they worship, how they worship, who they love, and who they hate. Maybe God should never have opened this door of corruption and miss-use. Maybe he errored.
How he could he have overlooked the numerous injustices that would undoubtebly be spawned by the creation of the biblical texts still alludes me.
But none the matter, I am not subjected to religous persecution like my forefathers where. I am free to worship god in anyway shape or form that I so choose. I prefer it this way.
Okay maybe I went a little bit to far in denouncing all organized religion. That was not quite what I was going for. And no I cannot biblically back up my argument, for I have never read the Bible, nor do I have any inclination to. If god wishes to communicate with us I would like him to give us some sort of sign, rather than dictating to someone who may twist those great words to his own gains. But that is a whole other can of worms for another discussion. <hr></blockquote>
Never read the Bible and then you post this. Most of what you ask and question is in the Bible and I am going to endeavor to show you some of it. However, I have a better understanding of what you mean and I appreciate that you are being concise and not resorting to name calling and such.
I want to keep everything in context as much as possible so you would not think I am trying to twist the meanings so some quotations may be a bit longer than usual...
You ask that God give you a sign instead of just having you read the bible. A couple of verses come to mind on this one.
First Jesus' direct words on the subject of needing to see a sign.
Matthew 16
1 And the Pharisees and Sad'ducees came, and to test him they asked him to show them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered them, "When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather; for the sky is red.' 3 And in the morning, 'It will be stormy today, for the sky is red and threatening.' You know how to interpret the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the times. 4 An evil and adulterous generation seeks for a sign, but no sign shall be given to it except the sign of Jonah." So he left them and departed.
and a parable by Jesus:
Luke 16
19 "There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day. 20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz'arus, full of sores, 21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man's table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried; 23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz'arus in his bosom. 24 And he called out, 'Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' 25 But Abraham said, 'Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz'arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.' 27 And he said, 'Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, 28 for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' 29 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.'"
Both passages speak of people saying just show us a sign and we will believe. And both times Jesus comes to the same answer. The signs have been shown, and still people do not believe. There will likely be no more signs, if you don't believe now with the evidence presented, you likely would not believe if an Angel appeared behind you and gave you the words right from God himself. However, miracles still happen, and God still shows himself, most people just write them off as phenomena though.
[quote]My point in my original argument was not that I hate it when people of similar thinking group together. That is a human reaction. And the people being the church I think is a good thing. The problem I see is when the leaders of the congregation begin dictating what their followers should do. Saying that God has spoken to them about how his subjects should live their lives. Something makes me distrust that God would really want to dictate how and why we should live our lives.<hr></blockquote>
God has given us free will and has allowed you teh choice to have that opinion. Do you distrust your parents too? They dictated your life for at least the first 12-15 years of it telling you how to act properly and why you should be that way. Is this really so different?
[quote]Now not coveting thy neighbors wife and all is good stuff. To me however I would think that god would like us to live our lives as we should see fit. Not make war on others in his name, not pray 3 times a day if it would not be sincere, etc etc.<hr></blockquote>
Another verse comes to mind, also words of Jesus:
Mark 12
38 And in his teaching he said, "Beware of the scribes, who like to go about in long robes, and to have salutations in the market places 39 and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at feasts, 40 who devour widows' houses and for a pretense make long prayers. They will receive the greater condemnation."
So in that sense you are right. Prayers to seem just and holy are not what God is looking for.
However for us to live our lives as we see fit is not at all what God wants.
Another verse of Jesus' teachings:
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."
Living the way you want to all the time is not going through the narrow way, that is a very wide path...
[quote]If we are God's children then he should know better than anyone what our nature is. How volatile and temperous we can be. Didnt he forsee that by introducing himself to us through biblical texts thus forming the major religons that he could possibly be lighting a fuse that would create so many injustices for our future? <hr></blockquote>
Yes we are God's children. And He does know our nature backwards and forwards, inside and out. That is why Jesus was sent to earth to die on the cross for us. We cannot escape our nature and thus have no chance without that sacrifice.
As far as the introduction of God through holy texts is concerned, he started off by seeing us in person. In the Garden of Eden in Genesis man walked with God. Then we sinned and brought that to an end. Next he tried to get close to his chosen people, the Israelites in Exodus. He even came down Himself and spoke to his people:
18 Now when all the people perceived the thunderings and the lightnings and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking, the people were afraid and trembled; and they stood afar off, 19 and said to Moses, "You speak to us, and we will hear; but let not God speak to us, lest we die." 20 And Moses said to the people, "Do not fear; for God has come to prove you, and that the fear of him may be before your eyes, that you may not sin."
And the people pushed him away.
[quote]Also if we are to all join an organized religon then which shal we join? Which is correct in its interpretation of the Lord, and which is wrong? Are any wrong? Are any right? And if God really wanted us to worship his greatness wouldnt he have insitaged, nurtured those that where right. While frowning upon religions that where incorrect? Or does he not care how/why we worship him, as long as his brilliance is atoned for?<hr></blockquote>
This I could give you my honest opinion on, but you would only take it as such, and opinion. However God does frown on religions that are incorrect and as you read through the Bible you see the many ways he deals with it. Everything from genocide of a culture that was especially evil, to Sodom and Gomorrah (destroyed by the wrath of God by fire from heaven), to sending his people into slavery when they started worshipping God "in their own way". Believe me, He is watching and cares. There are more instances, but I think you get where I am going with this.
[quote]I guess what im circuling around at is the frauds that I see so readily apparent in the foundation that gives ministers and popes and priests their power. And their 'right' to dictate how we should worship god. Im not ruling out the fact that the large majority of religous leaders are good-hearted and uncorrupted. But the problem is that we are such a volatial species that maybe no one should be put into a position of supreme power of a people, with the ability to dictate who they worship, how they worship, who they love, and who they hate. Maybe God should never have opened this door of corruption and miss-use. Maybe he errored. <hr></blockquote>
God created people to show His glory and for relationship with him. And he also appointed people to lead his believers. However, we are not supposed to blindly follow then in whatever they say. We are to test their teachings and be watchful that they are not twisting the word. This was brought up in the New Testament.
1 John 4
1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are of God; for many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichrist, of which you heard that it was coming, and now it is in the world already.
[quote]How he could he have overlooked the numerous injustices that would undoubtebly be spawned by the creation of the biblical texts still alludes me.
But none the matter, I am not subjected to religous persecution like my forefathers where. I am free to worship god in anyway shape or form that I so choose. I prefer it this way.<hr></blockquote>
It eludes me as well, but He did not overlook it, and I believe that it greatly saddens Him that what he meant for our edification and good, is used for injustice as well. But now you are back to human nature and testing the spirits...
2 Timothy 2:15 - Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Whoa, that was more of a sermon than I intended. Hope you did not just turn it off after the first passage.
(Jesus Christ himself advocated individual private spirituality over mass and visible piety:
Matthew 6:1-9 inclusive)
<strong>It is the greatest mechanism for mass manipulation, fearmongering, wars, strife and every imaginable evil going.</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's people's fault, not religion's. It's not like these religions actually condone this stuff. Blame people for being stupid, not religion for being manipulative. Let's face it, people are a real problem. We would be better off without them.
BTW, rationality is a part of religion. Just look at Islam in general from the 9th-17th centuries. While Christians were busy being medeival, Muslims pushed humanity forward (with plenty of war in there for good measure, that's never stopped). You've been reading too much A.D. White.
[ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
NoahJ, you have a good command of the bible. Did you have any theologic schooling?
!!!!! chuckle!
but...sheeeesh...if you read my post, I stated that religions are peoples' creations. Forget all the 'holy', 'paranormal', 'miraculous' 'god references' baggage; those are merely tools for deception. Ask any competent magician; they are well versed in the art of distracting people. But perhaps I omitted that religions are maintained by people as well....and usually for purposes of material gain than enlightenment. Genuine spirituality requires no organization, just a private one-on-one communication between a human being and its "creator" (for those who acknowledge a "creator"). A "menage-a-millions" is/was not the intent of bona-fide spiritual teachers.
[ 04-04-2002: Message edited by: Samantha Joanne Ollendale ]</p>
<strong>NoahJ, you have a good command of the bible. Did you have any theologic schooling?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have had a bit of schooling, but it was never my major. Mostly Bible as Literature type classes. What I know for the most part is due to personal study and paying attention in Church.
Thanks for the compliment!