I'm sorry, but that is simply not how you measure or discuss percentages. You do not say a 1.5% increase to represent an increase from 5% to 6.5%... that is nonsense, not to mention meaningless.
In this article it's esepcailly pertinent because the article implies Android is growing at a slower rate (although it's very careful to use the ambiguous words 'smaller amount').
I understand the whole point of this site is to put Apple int he best possible light, rather than report anythign objectively, and that's fine. However, trying to convince me that this is how percentages work is a little insulting. I do this for a living.
following that comment as well. In athletic prowess, besting your last best time is an accomplishment much to be desired and a way to measure how well you are doing relative to your starting point. This is not in dispute. But when you are racing against other individuals, your personal best is only relevant (in terms of the present race) to the personal best of the others in the race. So even though you bested your personal best time - you can still come in dead last in the race, if your personal best was well below the other competitors. Likewise, you can have the world's best sprinter in a race, but if it is a marathon, the sprinter is not likely to win against seasoned marathoners, no matter how fast he posts his 100 yards. It is the remaining 10,836.132 yards that are truly relevant to winning the race. As has been posted following the post to which you responded - it is only absolute numbers, not growth percentage that tell the correct story.
Quote:
I do this for a living.
Errrr, what?(insert "...for a living" after each example) You write articles about Apple and Android products? You do marketing? You use statistics badly? You don't understand how percentages work? You try to convince yourself this is how percentages work? You insult yourself?
A very badly ambiguous trailing statement there zooey.
I'm pretty sure World Peace isn't scheduled until the 3.0 iPad.
Along with the next AppleTV HW update
Quote:
This one is a bit too heavy, and the bezels are a still bit too wide.
I disagree regarding the iPad weight. I think iPad is not as heavy as many people have been saying. Many books weight as much as the iPad, if not more (150 Letter size pages weight that much too). Personally, each of the engineering books I have weight more than that.
You need the wide bezels. How else would you hold it without touching the screen?!
Android grew by 16.9% and iPhone by 8.25%, so Android is growing faster. If you're going to base stories on statistics, you need to understand them in the first place.
Would you rather that they base stories upon lies? Damn lies, maybe?
But to be serious, they aren't misrepresenting anything so much as picking upon statistical anomalies and presenting them in their best light.
It's a matter of what statistics you look at, and how much importance you attach to them.
There's also the "ten times nutthin is still nuthin" rule to be considered.
And none of this establishes any trends, which are more important than the static snapshots under consideration.
Yes, some understanding is needed. You must look at what percentage of the POTENTIAL market each OS was able to capture. For example something with 98% market share can at best only increase its share by 2 more points. If it increased its share by just 1 absolute point to 99%, it would have taken 50% of its potential market, which would be exceptional!
Likewise, with initially 30.3% of the market, iPhone's potential market is the other 69.7%. It decreased this by 2.5 absolute points, which is a 3.6% decrease is its potential market (2.5 / 69.7 x 100).
On the other hand, Android's initial share at 5.3% leaves 94.7% of the market available (long way to go, but large potential). This decreased by 0.9 absolute points, which represents just under a 1% decrease in its potential market.
I would say that iPhone is doing over 3.5 times better than Android at attacting new customers. How you like them apples?
That is extremely interesting. Is that a standard way to look at these things?
I'm sorry, but that is simply not how you measure or discuss percentages. You do not say a 1.5% increase to represent an increase from 5% to 6.5%... that is nonsense, not to mention meaningless.
In this article it's especially pertinent because the article implies Android is growing at a slower rate (although it's very careful to use the ambiguous words 'smaller amount').
I understand the whole point of this site is to put Apple in the best possible light, rather than report anything objectively, and that's fine. However, trying to convince me that this is how percentages work is a little insulting.
I'm sorry but objectively it is far more relevant to know that Apple is increasing it's share faster than Android.
Android could increase 10 fold from 0.1 to 1 point for example but if Apple, regardless of where it started from, moved up by 2 points, would still have taken double the points of Android.
You would be shouting on the rooftops that Android increased ten times but it would not really mean anything in relation to Apple's increase. I would find that far more insulting.
I'm not surprised by this, and I'm also not surprised by the news that Android phones are outselling iPhones. Here's why. People who buy Android phones fall into one of two categories: people who know what they're getting and people who just want a "fancy phone".
I have a coworker who can't even send a text message, yet she and her husband both bought very cool Android phones (a Droid and an Incredible, I think). Their reason was that they wanted cooler phones than their throwaway flip phones, not that they had any specific desire for those particular phones.
Compared with the people I know who have iPhones, I get the sense that iPhone buyers tend to know what they're getting and use their phones more than Android buyers. I think iPhone usage is higher than Android usage, even though people may buy more Android phones.
Errrr, what?(insert "...for a living" after each example) You write articles about Apple and Android products? You do marketing? You use statistics badly? You don't understand how percentages work? You try to convince yourself this is how percentages work? You insult yourself?
A very badly ambiguous trailing statement there zooey.
Fair enough, I edited the comment pretty quickly to remoe that but you caught the quote anyway. I work for an investment bank developing and defining strategic reporting on KPIs, KRIs etc - basically key operational metrics. If I made a statement in a report summary that capital leverage was up 10% (meaning from 10% to 20% of tier one capital) I'd be fired on the spot, and I'm quite senior.
While people can have a nice philosophical debate about statistics and lies, when someone says X increased by 10%, it's understood to mean by 10% of the original value, not by 10 percentage points. Anyone who attended at least high school knows this, and the argument is more of outcome than principle.
Note that the headline of this article is that "iPhone Web Market Share Outgrows Android in May"
The key word there is "outgrows", which means to grow faster or a greater rate. That is not backed by the figures, and the body of the story also adapts to reflect the figures, rather than support the headline.
I know AI is not exactly the NY Times, but that's not the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macnyc
I'm sorry but objectively it is far more relevant to know that Apple is increasing it's share faster than Android.
Saying something is objectively more relevant than something else, without a qualifier, is pointless. Relevant to who, for what purpose? To you maybe, to AI readers possibly. You may be right.
if you read the article it clearly states that there are more devices running android available than the iPhone OS
In terms of # of models, of course. But they're all smartphones (right now).
iPhone OS is on iPod Touches, iPhones, and iPads. It is on a wider variety of devices with a wider variety of users and a wider variety of price points.
I'm sorry, but that is simply not how you measure or discuss percentages. You do not say a 1.5% increase to represent an increase from 5% to 6.5%... that is nonsense, not to mention meaningless.
In this article it's especially pertinent because the article implies Android is growing at a slower rate (although it's very careful to use the ambiguous words 'smaller amount').
I understand the whole point of this site is to put Apple in the best possible light, rather than report anything objectively, and that's fine. However, trying to convince me that this is how percentages work is a little insulting.
If you do this for a living, I'd suggest that you find a new career.
Percentages don't mean anything by themselves. Any time you see a percentage, you have to ask, "percent of WHAT?". Simply saying that something grew by 10% means nothing. If you say that it grew by 10% of its previous sales, that is meaningful. If you say that it's share of the market grew by 10%, that is also meaningful.
There's nothing wrong with your way of doing it (measuring percent sales growth), but there's also nothing wrong with saying that Apple's market share increased by 2.5%, either (that is, 2.5% OF THE TOTAL MARKET).
It is 100% accurate to say that Apple gained more of the available market than Android (assuming, of course, that the figures provided are accurate). Whether Apple's gain was BETTER or WORSE than Android's gain is a matter of judgment.
Still, I'd be inclined to say that with a much smaller available market, Apple's ability to gain 3 times as many new users as Android is good news for Apple. Android's ability to increase their share significantly is good news for them, as well. I don't see any way of saying which one is 'better' news.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
I'm pretty sure World Peace isn't scheduled until the 3.0 iPad.
This one is a bit too heavy, and the bezels are a still bit too wide.
Fair enough, I edited the comment pretty quickly to remoe that but you caught the quote anyway. I work for an investment bank developing and defining strategic reporting on KPIs, KRIs etc - basically key operational metrics. If I made a statement in a report summary that capital leverage was up 10% (meaning from 10% to 20% of tier one capital) I'd be fired on the spot, and I'm quite senior. ...
Agreed. Also, if you look at how long the iPhone has been on the market starting from the 1st generation iPhone in comparison with Android then there is reason to worry. Android is gaining momentum fast and it's just a matter of time before they outnumber the iPhone.
I hope Apple starts thinking seriously about
1) having Verizon as a carrier (or multiple carriers)
2) offering more models
As much as I like my iPhone, there is a lot to like in the new version of Android, Froyo.
Google took so many ideas from Apple, there is nothing wrong in Apple doing the same. There are some nice features on Android that I wanna see on my iPhone. Open up the SDK even more plz
Android grew by 16.9% and iPhone by 8.25%, so Android is growing faster. If you're going to base stories on statistics, you need to understand them in the first place.
The entertaining part of this story is how starkly it contrasts with the triumphalism of many Android partisans (ie people who prefer the approach and goals of Android). You would think the iPhone platform was already eclipsed by Android and declining. It may some day but Apple stockholders have to be happy with the way things look currently.
Agreed. Also, if you look at how long the iPhone has been on the market starting from the 1st generation iPhone in comparison with Android then there is reason to worry. Android is gaining momentum fast and it's just a matter of time before they outnumber the iPhone.
Bzzt. Wrong. You're either assuming iPhone is standing still or that Android can continue growing at the same rate. Let's use the NetApplications statistics to gain a dose of reality - starting each platform from its launch date:
Android device launch - Oct 22, 2008; we'll say Nov 2008. 19 months later in May 2010, NetApps reports 0.11% web share for Android platform.
iPhone launch - June 29, 2007; we'll say July 2007. 19 months later in Jan 2009, NetApps reports 0.20% web share for iPhone platform.
For every month from launch to 19 months later (for Android that was May 2010, for iPhone that was Jan 2009), iPhone outperformed Android in the NetApps metrics; pretty much close to doubling the Android results every time.
As I've said before, Android is growing well. But it hasn't done anything in terms of market share growth, web share growth, units sold, or apps count, that iPhone hasn't already done before. Android is like the younger sibling who can't even duplicate the marks of its record-setting older sibling, iPhone.
Most Android-fans think they're seeing something incredible in the Android growth rate, and it is pretty incredible. What they don't realize is how much greater and more incredible was the iPhone growth rate that came before it.
Added: There is a device that is blowing the iPhone growth rate out of the water. That would be ... iPad.
If you do this for a living, I'd suggest that you find a new career.
Personal insults definitely add gravitas to what you're saying.
Quote:
Percentages don't mean anything by themselves. Any time you see a percentage, you have to ask, "percent of WHAT?". Simply saying that something grew by 10% means nothing. If you say that it grew by 10% of its previous sales, that is meaningful. If you say that it's share of the market grew by 10%, that is also meaningful.
There's nothing wrong with your way of doing it (measuring percent sales growth), but there's also nothing wrong with saying that Apple's market share increased by 2.5%, either (that is, 2.5% OF THE TOTAL MARKET).
Sorry, this is just plain wrong. If you look at any style book, like Chicago, MLA or anything else, what you suggested above would be considered bad practice.
When you say 'sales increased by 10%' sure, you add a time context (10% in the last year/month/day), but it is not necessary to say that sales 'increased by 10% of the sales' as that's some kind of weird tortology.
Your 2nd paragraph is also incorrect. If you're saying sales increased 'by 2.5% of the total market', that's also poor writing and presentation. You would say 'sales increased to X taking an extra X% of the market'. No one writes 'sales increased by X%' where X represents a % of 100% not of the subject.
Quote:
It is 100% accurate to say that Apple gained more of the available market than Android (assuming, of course, that the figures provided are accurate). Whether Apple's gain was BETTER or WORSE than Android's gain is a matter of judgment.
Yes, I completely agree with this.
Quote:
Still, I'd be inclined to say that with a much smaller available market, Apple's ability to gain 3 times as many new users as Android is good news for Apple. Android's ability to increase their share significantly is good news for them, as well. I don't see any way of saying which one is 'better' news.
Comments
I'm sorry, but that is simply not how you measure or discuss percentages. You do not say a 1.5% increase to represent an increase from 5% to 6.5%... that is nonsense, not to mention meaningless.
In this article it's esepcailly pertinent because the article implies Android is growing at a slower rate (although it's very careful to use the ambiguous words 'smaller amount').
I understand the whole point of this site is to put Apple int he best possible light, rather than report anythign objectively, and that's fine. However, trying to convince me that this is how percentages work is a little insulting. I do this for a living.
following that comment as well. In athletic prowess, besting your last best time is an accomplishment much to be desired and a way to measure how well you are doing relative to your starting point. This is not in dispute. But when you are racing against other individuals, your personal best is only relevant (in terms of the present race) to the personal best of the others in the race. So even though you bested your personal best time - you can still come in dead last in the race, if your personal best was well below the other competitors. Likewise, you can have the world's best sprinter in a race, but if it is a marathon, the sprinter is not likely to win against seasoned marathoners, no matter how fast he posts his 100 yards. It is the remaining 10,836.132 yards that are truly relevant to winning the race. As has been posted following the post to which you responded - it is only absolute numbers, not growth percentage that tell the correct story.
I do this for a living.
Errrr, what?(insert "...for a living" after each example) You write articles about Apple and Android products? You do marketing? You use statistics badly? You don't understand how percentages work? You try to convince yourself this is how percentages work? You insult yourself?
A very badly ambiguous trailing statement there zooey.
I'm pretty sure World Peace isn't scheduled until the 3.0 iPad.
Along with the next AppleTV HW update
This one is a bit too heavy, and the bezels are a still bit too wide.
I disagree regarding the iPad weight. I think iPad is not as heavy as many people have been saying. Many books weight as much as the iPad, if not more (150 Letter size pages weight that much too). Personally, each of the engineering books I have weight more than that.
You need the wide bezels. How else would you hold it without touching the screen?!
edit: Replying to trolls does no one any good.
it does give me a bit of a giggle.
Android grew by 16.9% and iPhone by 8.25%, so Android is growing faster. If you're going to base stories on statistics, you need to understand them in the first place.
Would you rather that they base stories upon lies? Damn lies, maybe?
But to be serious, they aren't misrepresenting anything so much as picking upon statistical anomalies and presenting them in their best light.
It's a matter of what statistics you look at, and how much importance you attach to them.
There's also the "ten times nutthin is still nuthin" rule to be considered.
And none of this establishes any trends, which are more important than the static snapshots under consideration.
Yes, some understanding is needed. You must look at what percentage of the POTENTIAL market each OS was able to capture. For example something with 98% market share can at best only increase its share by 2 more points. If it increased its share by just 1 absolute point to 99%, it would have taken 50% of its potential market, which would be exceptional!
Likewise, with initially 30.3% of the market, iPhone's potential market is the other 69.7%. It decreased this by 2.5 absolute points, which is a 3.6% decrease is its potential market (2.5 / 69.7 x 100).
On the other hand, Android's initial share at 5.3% leaves 94.7% of the market available (long way to go, but large potential). This decreased by 0.9 absolute points, which represents just under a 1% decrease in its potential market.
I would say that iPhone is doing over 3.5 times better than Android at attacting new customers. How you like them apples?
That is extremely interesting. Is that a standard way to look at these things?
iPhone + iPod touch + iPad Grew faster than Android....
if you read the article it clearly states that there are more devices running android available than the iPhone OS
I'm sorry, but that is simply not how you measure or discuss percentages. You do not say a 1.5% increase to represent an increase from 5% to 6.5%... that is nonsense, not to mention meaningless.
In this article it's especially pertinent because the article implies Android is growing at a slower rate (although it's very careful to use the ambiguous words 'smaller amount').
I understand the whole point of this site is to put Apple in the best possible light, rather than report anything objectively, and that's fine. However, trying to convince me that this is how percentages work is a little insulting.
I'm sorry but objectively it is far more relevant to know that Apple is increasing it's share faster than Android.
Android could increase 10 fold from 0.1 to 1 point for example but if Apple, regardless of where it started from, moved up by 2 points, would still have taken double the points of Android.
You would be shouting on the rooftops that Android increased ten times but it would not really mean anything in relation to Apple's increase. I would find that far more insulting.
I have a coworker who can't even send a text message, yet she and her husband both bought very cool Android phones (a Droid and an Incredible, I think). Their reason was that they wanted cooler phones than their throwaway flip phones, not that they had any specific desire for those particular phones.
Compared with the people I know who have iPhones, I get the sense that iPhone buyers tend to know what they're getting and use their phones more than Android buyers. I think iPhone usage is higher than Android usage, even though people may buy more Android phones.
Errrr, what?(insert "...for a living" after each example) You write articles about Apple and Android products? You do marketing? You use statistics badly? You don't understand how percentages work? You try to convince yourself this is how percentages work? You insult yourself?
A very badly ambiguous trailing statement there zooey.
Fair enough, I edited the comment pretty quickly to remoe that but you caught the quote anyway. I work for an investment bank developing and defining strategic reporting on KPIs, KRIs etc - basically key operational metrics. If I made a statement in a report summary that capital leverage was up 10% (meaning from 10% to 20% of tier one capital) I'd be fired on the spot, and I'm quite senior.
While people can have a nice philosophical debate about statistics and lies, when someone says X increased by 10%, it's understood to mean by 10% of the original value, not by 10 percentage points. Anyone who attended at least high school knows this, and the argument is more of outcome than principle.
Note that the headline of this article is that "iPhone Web Market Share Outgrows Android in May"
The key word there is "outgrows", which means to grow faster or a greater rate. That is not backed by the figures, and the body of the story also adapts to reflect the figures, rather than support the headline.
I know AI is not exactly the NY Times, but that's not the point.
I'm sorry but objectively it is far more relevant to know that Apple is increasing it's share faster than Android.
Saying something is objectively more relevant than something else, without a qualifier, is pointless. Relevant to who, for what purpose? To you maybe, to AI readers possibly. You may be right.
if you read the article it clearly states that there are more devices running android available than the iPhone OS
In terms of # of models, of course. But they're all smartphones (right now).
iPhone OS is on iPod Touches, iPhones, and iPads. It is on a wider variety of devices with a wider variety of users and a wider variety of price points.
I'm sorry, but that is simply not how you measure or discuss percentages. You do not say a 1.5% increase to represent an increase from 5% to 6.5%... that is nonsense, not to mention meaningless.
In this article it's especially pertinent because the article implies Android is growing at a slower rate (although it's very careful to use the ambiguous words 'smaller amount').
I understand the whole point of this site is to put Apple in the best possible light, rather than report anything objectively, and that's fine. However, trying to convince me that this is how percentages work is a little insulting.
If you do this for a living, I'd suggest that you find a new career.
Percentages don't mean anything by themselves. Any time you see a percentage, you have to ask, "percent of WHAT?". Simply saying that something grew by 10% means nothing. If you say that it grew by 10% of its previous sales, that is meaningful. If you say that it's share of the market grew by 10%, that is also meaningful.
There's nothing wrong with your way of doing it (measuring percent sales growth), but there's also nothing wrong with saying that Apple's market share increased by 2.5%, either (that is, 2.5% OF THE TOTAL MARKET).
It is 100% accurate to say that Apple gained more of the available market than Android (assuming, of course, that the figures provided are accurate). Whether Apple's gain was BETTER or WORSE than Android's gain is a matter of judgment.
Still, I'd be inclined to say that with a much smaller available market, Apple's ability to gain 3 times as many new users as Android is good news for Apple. Android's ability to increase their share significantly is good news for them, as well. I don't see any way of saying which one is 'better' news.
I'm pretty sure World Peace isn't scheduled until the 3.0 iPad.
This one is a bit too heavy, and the bezels are a still bit too wide.
And it doesn't have Flash.
Fair enough, I edited the comment pretty quickly to remoe that but you caught the quote anyway. I work for an investment bank developing and defining strategic reporting on KPIs, KRIs etc - basically key operational metrics. If I made a statement in a report summary that capital leverage was up 10% (meaning from 10% to 20% of tier one capital) I'd be fired on the spot, and I'm quite senior. ...
This may explain a lot...
Agreed. Also, if you look at how long the iPhone has been on the market starting from the 1st generation iPhone in comparison with Android then there is reason to worry. Android is gaining momentum fast and it's just a matter of time before they outnumber the iPhone.
I hope Apple starts thinking seriously about
1) having Verizon as a carrier (or multiple carriers)
2) offering more models
As much as I like my iPhone, there is a lot to like in the new version of Android, Froyo.
Google took so many ideas from Apple, there is nothing wrong in Apple doing the same. There are some nice features on Android that I wanna see on my iPhone. Open up the SDK even more plz
Aw Jeez, another Steve Jobs wannabe.
Android grew by 16.9% and iPhone by 8.25%, so Android is growing faster. If you're going to base stories on statistics, you need to understand them in the first place.
The entertaining part of this story is how starkly it contrasts with the triumphalism of many Android partisans (ie people who prefer the approach and goals of Android). You would think the iPhone platform was already eclipsed by Android and declining. It may some day but Apple stockholders have to be happy with the way things look currently.
Agreed. Also, if you look at how long the iPhone has been on the market starting from the 1st generation iPhone in comparison with Android then there is reason to worry. Android is gaining momentum fast and it's just a matter of time before they outnumber the iPhone.
Bzzt. Wrong. You're either assuming iPhone is standing still or that Android can continue growing at the same rate. Let's use the NetApplications statistics to gain a dose of reality - starting each platform from its launch date:
Android device launch - Oct 22, 2008; we'll say Nov 2008. 19 months later in May 2010, NetApps reports 0.11% web share for Android platform.
iPhone launch - June 29, 2007; we'll say July 2007. 19 months later in Jan 2009, NetApps reports 0.20% web share for iPhone platform.
For every month from launch to 19 months later (for Android that was May 2010, for iPhone that was Jan 2009), iPhone outperformed Android in the NetApps metrics; pretty much close to doubling the Android results every time.
As I've said before, Android is growing well. But it hasn't done anything in terms of market share growth, web share growth, units sold, or apps count, that iPhone hasn't already done before. Android is like the younger sibling who can't even duplicate the marks of its record-setting older sibling, iPhone.
Most Android-fans think they're seeing something incredible in the Android growth rate, and it is pretty incredible. What they don't realize is how much greater and more incredible was the iPhone growth rate that came before it.
Added: There is a device that is blowing the iPhone growth rate out of the water. That would be ... iPad.
Statistics don't lie, but a lot of the details often get left out that allows the writers a lot of latitude in how they explain them.
How true. That explains one of my favorite sayings (author unknown) : Figures lie and liars figure.
If you do this for a living, I'd suggest that you find a new career.
Personal insults definitely add gravitas to what you're saying.
Percentages don't mean anything by themselves. Any time you see a percentage, you have to ask, "percent of WHAT?". Simply saying that something grew by 10% means nothing. If you say that it grew by 10% of its previous sales, that is meaningful. If you say that it's share of the market grew by 10%, that is also meaningful.
There's nothing wrong with your way of doing it (measuring percent sales growth), but there's also nothing wrong with saying that Apple's market share increased by 2.5%, either (that is, 2.5% OF THE TOTAL MARKET).
Sorry, this is just plain wrong. If you look at any style book, like Chicago, MLA or anything else, what you suggested above would be considered bad practice.
When you say 'sales increased by 10%' sure, you add a time context (10% in the last year/month/day), but it is not necessary to say that sales 'increased by 10% of the sales' as that's some kind of weird tortology.
Your 2nd paragraph is also incorrect. If you're saying sales increased 'by 2.5% of the total market', that's also poor writing and presentation. You would say 'sales increased to X taking an extra X% of the market'. No one writes 'sales increased by X%' where X represents a % of 100% not of the subject.
It is 100% accurate to say that Apple gained more of the available market than Android (assuming, of course, that the figures provided are accurate). Whether Apple's gain was BETTER or WORSE than Android's gain is a matter of judgment.
Yes, I completely agree with this.
Still, I'd be inclined to say that with a much smaller available market, Apple's ability to gain 3 times as many new users as Android is good news for Apple. Android's ability to increase their share significantly is good news for them, as well. I don't see any way of saying which one is 'better' news.
Good points, and I agree with this too.