[quote]No matter how much you disagree with Israeli military action in the West Bank (and I happen to think that Ariel Sharon is the biggest idiot in Israeli history), it cannot be used to justify Palestinian terrorism.<hr></blockquote>
I agree with this 100%, I have no reason to discuss your first post. I agree with it. At no point have I stated that the terrorist attacks on Israel were justified or moral.
[quote]And groverat, your arrogant assumption of knowledge is laughable.<hr></blockquote>
This coming from someone who actually said "Hate to get theoretical on you, but this is my field of study."
Interesting. I only said that I have demonstrated a greater knowledge since I actually brought up facts and stuff. Whether or not I have the most knowledge is definitely debateable. I'm sure someone who has posted thus far knows more than me and I can guarantee you that someone who has read all this knows a lot more than me on the subject.
You can't counter what I've said because you either don't understand the books you're reading or maybe what you're being taught is bullshit. (polysci major learning stuff that isn't applicable in real life but acting like it is even when confronted with grim reality... never!)
Also, no response re: Slobodan, eh? I guess that big court thingy at the Hague isn't really there, a Commie illusion. Nope, <a href="http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/idecisions.htm"; target="_blank">International law</a> is just a big <a href="http://www.un.org/law/"; target="_blank">figment of our imaginations.</a>
I understand your theory, agent, I really do, I just know that it's bullshit given the state of the actual world and the mountain of quite obvious circumstances that show it to be quite flawed.
I prefer actual knowledge to hollow theorizing. But then again, polysci is your field of study, so we're different right off the bat. I'm a journalism major, after all, I'm supposed to be analyzing the bullshit your peers pump out. Those are our jobs, after all.
------
I think the real winner in all this is MacsKickAss, for exposing the anti-Semitic idea of mutual peace for what it really is. Israel deserves that land, by God, and anyone who says diff'rnt is a pinko Aryan/Arab Commie fag!
But for fun I'll get at a few basic points...
[quote]So then by that logic the USA is violently occupying Afganistan. You do know there are US soldiers there (Canadian and others as well.)<hr></blockquote>
There are soldiers there, yeah. But the people aren't subject to U.S. or Canadian authority. The land also isn't being settled by armed Americans or Canadians. What's going on is a police action, not a settlement and occupation. There's a difference and it's a quite obvious difference.
[quote]Or if I did would they really be fakes made by commies?<hr></blockquote>
Nope, we killed civilians and I'm well aware of the fact. But we did it for a very limited time and we're not doing it anymore, because the conflict in that particular area has cooled considerably. Israeli soldiers and Palestinian terrorists have been killing civilians for decades. Also, Israel has killed many Palestinians while demolishing their homes, making way for Israeli settlers, a situation you won't find in Afghanistan.
[quote]Israel has given the West Bank of the Jordon River and the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians to be ruled autonomously by the Palestinian Authority.<hr></blockquote>
That never was the Israeli's to offer. They took it away and offered to give it back if Arafat agreed to let them have some of the other land they had taken. He, rightly, refused. Palestinians want all of their land, and this is why we're at the bloody impasse we're at now.
[quote]You don't like Canadians either.<hr></blockquote>
Damnit, you got me some more! I hate Canadians and Jews and homosexuals and puppies and birdies and fishies and handicapped people and blacks and browns and yellows and blues and Australians and even myself. I hate you for making me face the ugly truths that dwell inside me. No, not dwell, fester, they fester inside me like something that festers... festers with a great festering presence!
[quote]Are you refering to "you guys" being Canada, or "you guys" being Israel?<hr></blockquote>
Canadians. And Mac users. (Oh yeah, I hate Mac users and Amiga users and Linux users and Windows users. And, God help us all, BSD users.)
[quote]Can you say anything besides sarcastic statements?<hr></blockquote>
I don't know, when you start saying intelligent things I will stop being sarcastic. When you actually assert with sincerity that the only reason I could disagree with Israeli occupation is because I'm anti-Semitic... am I supposed to take such idiotic tripe seriously?
[quote]Oh, and good luck replying to this. I had a hell of time managing the quotes. Good luck if you are going to do this same.<hr></blockquote>
Since the Zionist settlement in Israel in 1860, the country has lost 21,182 people in wars and in terror attacks.
In just March, 104 citizens were killed and 833 were injured.
Just wondering if you knew that.
I don't have much time so I'll just respond to the important quotes.
[quote]
I said:
<strong>Israel has given the West Bank of the Jordon River and the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians to be ruled autonomously by the Palestinian Authority.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Your reply:
<strong>That never was the Israeli's to offer. They took it away and offered to give it back if Arafat agreed to let them have some of the other land they had taken. He, rightly, refused. Palestinians want all of their land, and this is why we're at the bloody impasse we're at now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They took away the West Bank and Gaza from Jordon and Egypt, respectively. Those two Arab states did not offer those occupied territories to the Palestinians.
How did Arafat rightly refuse. They were offered all there land. 90%+ is not good enoguh? Or are you refering to all of Israel should be given to Arafat the PA?
I have to go to bed now, I won't be able to respond to anything else tonight.
And I did not say you are anti-semitic, just what you are saying could be derivied from it or that you are simply saying this for flame bate.
Many Arabs in the area have been killed as well. I know both sides have suffered. I've said this quite a few times.
[quote]They took away the West Bank and Gaza from Jordon and Egypt, respectively. Those two Arab states did not offer those occupied territories to the Palestinians.<hr></blockquote>
groverrat, I think I have an idea of what your are suggesting. But do you really think the Israelis and the Palestinians can live in peace at such close proximity even after a resolution is formed and accepted by both parties? I think lasting peace is that thing that is so elusive. It won't happen with other countries around that still harbor deep seated resentment towards Israel. they will always be poking it to the Palestinians until something new erupts.
[quote]But do you really think the Israelis and the Palestinians can live in peace at such close proximity even after a resolution is formed and accepted by both parties?<hr></blockquote>
That's the $64,000 question, now isn't it?
Unfortunately, I think hostilities in that region will never die.
However, it is imperative that everyone act in good faith and obey international laws. Without strict adherence to laws there is no hope at all for peace and there will be no end in sight to the bloodshed.
If the Palestinians can get organized under a productive government, then yes, I absolutely believe that there can be hope for peace. First the extreme Zionists and extreme Muslims must be removed from any positions of power in the region.
I can't say whether or not an immediate Israel pull-out will solve all the problems, but it will most certainly help. And besides, they are breaking the law by staying there anyway and inviting further attacks on their civilians.
I've read "Beyond Good and Evil" and "The Will to Power" but beyond that I haven't really studied Nietzsche all that closely. The whole will to power as a physical theory, thing. Nihilism and all that fun jazz.
[edit]
From "The Will to Power":
The development of pessimism into nihilism. - Denaturalisation of values. Scholasticism of values. Detached and idealistic, values, instead of dominating and guiding action, turn against action and condemn it. Opposites replace natural degrees and ranks. Hatred against the order of rank. Opposites suit a plebeian age because easier to comprehend. The repudiated world versus an artificially built "true, valuable" one. - Finally: one discovers of what material one has built the "true world": and now all one has left is the repudiated world, and one adds this supreme disappointment to the reasons why it deserves to be repudiated. At this point nihilism is reached: all one has left are the values that pass judgement - nothing else.
Here the problem of strength and weakness originates:
1. The weak perish of it.
2. Those who are stronger destroy what does not perish.
3. Those who are strongest overcome the values that pass judgement.
Clearly, anyone who criticizes the Israeli Defense Force shooting 4 year olds in the head must be an anti-semite who believes in a worldwide Jackie-Masonic conspiracy.....
Oh really? They started shooting 4 year olds in the head? That's news to me. I thought they were only looking to kill pregnant women, and blind old people with one leg. My bad .
The US is, by UN definition, a terrorist state (as is Israel). The PLO did not choose nonviolence in the early 60s and therefore is close to as bad (if they had more Arab money they would be as bad as Israel, who is funded by the US and UK). Either way, the truth will come out sooner or later that the US does not want peace in the middle east but instead wants a kind of controlled chaos (just like Latin America)and we should see a two state system.
BTW - anyone who thinks that a country with a religious symbol on its flag is a "democracy" should 1) check the law, which favors jews over other all others and 2) imagine the (predominantly christian) US with a cross on their flag with the same exact laws in this country.
Both the PLO and Israel are bloodthirsty and driven by ego; the US is, too- the only difference is that they LIKE it that way.
Supporting Israel's bloody imperialism has really come back to sting us. We've got over 3,000 dead as a result and it's high time we stopped funding their military machine. If they want to continue violent expansion let them do it on their own dime.
[quote] BTW - anyone who thinks that a country with a religious symbol on its flag is a "democracy" should 1) check the law, which favors jews over other all others and 2) imagine the (predominantly christian) US with a cross on their flag with the same exact laws in this country. <hr></blockquote>
ehh. both Switzerland and all the north European countries have a cross in their flag. I don't know about switzerland, but the cross in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland and the faroe island is the christan cross... (I also believe the english flag has the same form...)
I agree that those are christian crosses; thanks. I still, however, remember reading that Israel's lawbooks favor jews, which reminds me of "old" South Africa.
[quote] Definately. If all you have is a slingshot, don't pick a fight with a trained soldier toting an M-16A2.
<hr></blockquote>
not to pick sides, because both are wrong wrong wrong....
but if foreign soldiers atacked my home and family in America, even if they had guns and all i had were stones, i would throw stones, pebbles and finally dust if i had to to try and protect my family....g
<strong>Spooky are you saying to get rid off all muslim nations?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, not any religion specifically, just religion. I can't help wondering exactly what positives and benefits religion brings when considering more than one person. And its always ordinary people who get hurt. Not religious leaders, politicians or big business.
When we should be collonising planets, curing ghastly diseases, travelling the galaxy, eradicating poverty and starvation we haven't achieved any of this. Instead people fight.
Comments
I agree with this 100%, I have no reason to discuss your first post. I agree with it. At no point have I stated that the terrorist attacks on Israel were justified or moral.
[quote]And groverat, your arrogant assumption of knowledge is laughable.<hr></blockquote>
This coming from someone who actually said "Hate to get theoretical on you, but this is my field of study."
Interesting. I only said that I have demonstrated a greater knowledge since I actually brought up facts and stuff. Whether or not I have the most knowledge is definitely debateable. I'm sure someone who has posted thus far knows more than me and I can guarantee you that someone who has read all this knows a lot more than me on the subject.
You can't counter what I've said because you either don't understand the books you're reading or maybe what you're being taught is bullshit. (polysci major learning stuff that isn't applicable in real life but acting like it is even when confronted with grim reality... never!)
Also, no response re: Slobodan, eh? I guess that big court thingy at the Hague isn't really there, a Commie illusion. Nope, <a href="http://www.icj-cij.org/icjwww/idecisions.htm"; target="_blank">International law</a> is just a big <a href="http://www.un.org/law/"; target="_blank">figment of our imaginations.</a>
I understand your theory, agent, I really do, I just know that it's bullshit given the state of the actual world and the mountain of quite obvious circumstances that show it to be quite flawed.
I prefer actual knowledge to hollow theorizing. But then again, polysci is your field of study, so we're different right off the bat. I'm a journalism major, after all, I'm supposed to be analyzing the bullshit your peers pump out. Those are our jobs, after all.
------
I think the real winner in all this is MacsKickAss, for exposing the anti-Semitic idea of mutual peace for what it really is. Israel deserves that land, by God, and anyone who says diff'rnt is a pinko Aryan/Arab Commie fag!
But for fun I'll get at a few basic points...
[quote]So then by that logic the USA is violently occupying Afganistan. You do know there are US soldiers there (Canadian and others as well.)<hr></blockquote>
There are soldiers there, yeah. But the people aren't subject to U.S. or Canadian authority. The land also isn't being settled by armed Americans or Canadians. What's going on is a police action, not a settlement and occupation. There's a difference and it's a quite obvious difference.
[quote]Or if I did would they really be fakes made by commies?<hr></blockquote>
Nope, we killed civilians and I'm well aware of the fact. But we did it for a very limited time and we're not doing it anymore, because the conflict in that particular area has cooled considerably. Israeli soldiers and Palestinian terrorists have been killing civilians for decades. Also, Israel has killed many Palestinians while demolishing their homes, making way for Israeli settlers, a situation you won't find in Afghanistan.
[quote]Israel has given the West Bank of the Jordon River and the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians to be ruled autonomously by the Palestinian Authority.<hr></blockquote>
That never was the Israeli's to offer. They took it away and offered to give it back if Arafat agreed to let them have some of the other land they had taken. He, rightly, refused. Palestinians want all of their land, and this is why we're at the bloody impasse we're at now.
[quote]You don't like Canadians either.<hr></blockquote>
Damnit, you got me some more! I hate Canadians and Jews and homosexuals and puppies and birdies and fishies and handicapped people and blacks and browns and yellows and blues and Australians and even myself. I hate you for making me face the ugly truths that dwell inside me. No, not dwell, fester, they fester inside me like something that festers... festers with a great festering presence!
[quote]Are you refering to "you guys" being Canada, or "you guys" being Israel?<hr></blockquote>
Canadians. And Mac users.
[quote]Can you say anything besides sarcastic statements?<hr></blockquote>
I don't know, when you start saying intelligent things I will stop being sarcastic. When you actually assert with sincerity that the only reason I could disagree with Israeli occupation is because I'm anti-Semitic... am I supposed to take such idiotic tripe seriously?
[quote]Oh, and good luck replying to this. I had a hell of time managing the quotes. Good luck if you are going to do this same.<hr></blockquote>
I can handle it just fine.
Since the Zionist settlement in Israel in 1860, the country has lost 21,182 people in wars and in terror attacks.
In just March, 104 citizens were killed and 833 were injured.
Just wondering if you knew that.
I don't have much time so I'll just respond to the important quotes.
[quote]
I said:
<strong>Israel has given the West Bank of the Jordon River and the Gaza Strip to the Palestinians to be ruled autonomously by the Palestinian Authority.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Your reply:
<strong>That never was the Israeli's to offer. They took it away and offered to give it back if Arafat agreed to let them have some of the other land they had taken. He, rightly, refused. Palestinians want all of their land, and this is why we're at the bloody impasse we're at now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They took away the West Bank and Gaza from Jordon and Egypt, respectively. Those two Arab states did not offer those occupied territories to the Palestinians.
How did Arafat rightly refuse. They were offered all there land. 90%+ is not good enoguh? Or are you refering to all of Israel should be given to Arafat the PA?
I have to go to bed now, I won't be able to respond to anything else tonight.
And I did not say you are anti-semitic, just what you are saying could be derivied from it or that you are simply saying this for flame bate.
[quote]They took away the West Bank and Gaza from Jordon and Egypt, respectively. Those two Arab states did not offer those occupied territories to the Palestinians.<hr></blockquote>
Really, the <a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/gz.html"; target="_blank">Gaza Strip</a> was Egypt's? You must have some knowledge that no one on else had before. Wow.
And <a href="http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/we.html"; target="_blank">the West Bank</a> was Jordan's? Fascinating.
[edit]
[quote]How did Arafat rightly refuse. They were offered all there land. 90%+ is not good enoguh?<hr></blockquote>
You would accept 90% of your land back if someone took it from you?
They were *not* offered all their land.
[quote]Or are you refering to all of Israel should be given to Arafat the PA?<hr></blockquote>
Yep, that's what I'm saying. Since I hate Jews and everything. You've nailed me.
****ing idiot.
[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
That's the $64,000 question, now isn't it?
Unfortunately, I think hostilities in that region will never die.
However, it is imperative that everyone act in good faith and obey international laws. Without strict adherence to laws there is no hope at all for peace and there will be no end in sight to the bloodshed.
If the Palestinians can get organized under a productive government, then yes, I absolutely believe that there can be hope for peace. First the extreme Zionists and extreme Muslims must be removed from any positions of power in the region.
I can't say whether or not an immediate Israel pull-out will solve all the problems, but it will most certainly help. And besides, they are breaking the law by staying there anyway and inviting further attacks on their civilians.
<strong>Your "might makes right" argument is very Nietzsche, ubermensch</strong><hr></blockquote>
You haven't really studied Nietzsche, have you? Didn't think so.
PS: I just read the rest of this post. Keep your dick in your pants. It's not nearly the size you think it is...
[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
[edit]
From "The Will to Power":
The development of pessimism into nihilism. - Denaturalisation of values. Scholasticism of values. Detached and idealistic, values, instead of dominating and guiding action, turn against action and condemn it. Opposites replace natural degrees and ranks. Hatred against the order of rank. Opposites suit a plebeian age because easier to comprehend. The repudiated world versus an artificially built "true, valuable" one. - Finally: one discovers of what material one has built the "true world": and now all one has left is the repudiated world, and one adds this supreme disappointment to the reasons why it deserves to be repudiated. At this point nihilism is reached: all one has left are the values that pass judgement - nothing else.
Here the problem of strength and weakness originates:
1. The weak perish of it.
2. Those who are stronger destroy what does not perish.
3. Those who are strongest overcome the values that pass judgement.
[ 04-16-2002: Message edited by: groverat ]</p>
BTW - anyone who thinks that a country with a religious symbol on its flag is a "democracy" should 1) check the law, which favors jews over other all others and 2) imagine the (predominantly christian) US with a cross on their flag with the same exact laws in this country.
Both the PLO and Israel are bloodthirsty and driven by ego; the US is, too- the only difference is that they LIKE it that way.
ehh. both Switzerland and all the north European countries have a cross in their flag. I don't know about switzerland, but the cross in Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland and the faroe island is the christan cross... (I also believe the english flag has the same form...)
Indonesia is about as close as you get.
You have got to be kidding me. Israel is a PURE jewish state? Then what the hell is Iran, Iraq, Yemen, Saudi Arabia and Egypt?
Anyway spooky said, would the world be a better place if someone simply nuked all countries where religion informed the people's lives?
Not where religion is PURE. Where religion informed the people's lives or what ever that mean.
Or was that just another jab at the jews?
<hr></blockquote>
not to pick sides, because both are wrong wrong wrong....
but if foreign soldiers atacked my home and family in America, even if they had guns and all i had were stones, i would throw stones, pebbles and finally dust if i had to to try and protect my family....g
<strong>Spooky are you saying to get rid off all muslim nations?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, not any religion specifically, just religion. I can't help wondering exactly what positives and benefits religion brings when considering more than one person. And its always ordinary people who get hurt. Not religious leaders, politicians or big business.
When we should be collonising planets, curing ghastly diseases, travelling the galaxy, eradicating poverty and starvation we haven't achieved any of this. Instead people fight.