Developers, Apple busy updating apps for iOS 4, iPhone 4

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  • Reply 21 of 47
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,950member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post


    ... 2. If iOS developers were allowed to use high-level frameworks and tools they'd be able to update their apps in a fraction of the time needed to recode them by hand in C/C++/Obj-C.



    Really? Exactly what would be the time difference in that case?
  • Reply 22 of 47
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post


    Spoken like someone who'd never shipped software.



    Two facts to consider:



    1. Most apps in the AppsStore are pulling in less than minimum wage. This is true for almost all of them below the top 0.001% (200 out of 200,000).



    2. If iOS developers were allowed to use high-level frameworks and tools they'd be able to update their apps in a fraction of the time needed to recode them by hand in C/C++/Obj-C.



    1. You keep repeating that lie. I wonder why? Just to recap - your figure took the revenues from iPad-specific apps and then divided it by the total number of iPhone apps. You also just forgot to mention that the chart showed sales for a very short period of time, yet you acted like it was annual revenues. As it is, we know that there are enough developers interested in developing for the iPhone to create well over 200,000 apps. Whether you think they're making enough is irrelevant.



    2. Yet another of your imagined 'facts'. As it is, read the article. For many developers, all they had to do was recompile to take advantage of the new features. How would they have been able to update their apps in a fraction of that time if they had used different tools?



    I'd like to suggest that in the interest of truth in advertising that you call yourself IRrational troll.
  • Reply 23 of 47
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    You keep repeating that lie. I wonder why? Just to recap - your figure took the revenues from iPad-specific apps and then divided it by the total number of iPhone apps. You also just forgot to mention that the chart showed sales for a very short period of time, yet you acted like it was annual revenues. As it is, we know that there are enough developers interested in developing for the iPhone to create well over 200,000 apps. Whether you think they're making enough is irrelevant.



    Clever use of "enough", since of course that's subjective. There are many reasons to make apps, and not all of them involve direct ROI; many have strategic value to the publisher which makes turning out a money-losing app still worthwhile for other reasons.



    For those those developers who do this for a living, direct ROI is still an important consideration. And iOS ain't no gold mine.



    Apparently you failed to note the other link I added to that thread which showed general iPhone OS stats with similar percentages as for iPad-specific apps:



    http://www.tuaw.com/2010/04/21/estim...ng-372k-a-day/



    If you have better stats please share.
  • Reply 24 of 47
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,950member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post


    ... If you have better stats please share.



    Hey, we're still waiting for you to explain why and how much time developers would have saved if they could have used tools not allowed by the SDK license.
  • Reply 25 of 47
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by svnipp View Post


    I've had numerous apps over the past couple weeks that HAVE already been updated to support iOS 4. Of course there are going to be tons of apps updated right around the launch date, but this is more a matter of project prioritization on the part of the devs rather than Apple. Heck, Apple could have made the new SDK available 6 months ago so devs had a huge window to perform the update in, but let's face it this wouldn't help any at all. First of all, many devs would have new apps in the pipeline that take priority to updating existing apps for an update 6 months away. Then there would be people like you trashing Apple of putting out the SDK so far in advance that it limits what new features Apple can include in the new APIs.



    How many new apps requiring Windows 7 were released the same day as that OS? I assume that would really be the most disappointing launch ever? I mean Windows still has about a 90% market share on the desktop and let's face it there are WAY more desktops than iPhones. You must have just been beside yourself with disappointment over the lack of updated apps on Windows 7 release day. Oh yeah, let's not forget that Windows developers don't even have to worry about submitting their apps to MS for approval so that should make it even easier for them to have updated their apps for Win 7.



    What is the point of this post? I cannot find one.



    Apple releases a major OS update that, in order to function as advertised, requires utmost haste and cooperation from the developer community. This, is not my problem.



    As a user, it becomes my problem when I download the advertised software, and it does not work as it should. How should it work? At the bare minimum, every app on my phone should have been updated to support fast app switching before the switch was even thrown for 4.0.



    Beyond that, I believe the rest should updated very shortly after release, albeit when ready. There is still no excuse for fast app switching to not be already in use by every app store app.



    If I were Apple I would have made it mandatory for keeping your Apps in the store after June 21st. I also would have given them 6 months to accomplish it.
  • Reply 26 of 47
    pmzpmz Posts: 3,433member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anon7979 View Post


    Did anyone else try out Dropbox with iOS4, specifically trying to play a music file from your account? I typically use my account as temporary storage for mp3s I want to listen to, but don't otherwise have a way to quickly get onto my phone (i.e., when I'm at work, where, believe it or not, iTunes is completely forbidden on all machines).



    I tried playing an mp3 with iOS4 and the latest version of Dropbox, and it still seems to pull up the built-in Quicktime playback screen to do so. When switching away from the app, the music stops, and doesn't continue like I would have expected. Maybe developers have to do a little more work besides just compiling against the iOS4 libs to get support for some of these other new features in iOS4. If so, this is disingenuous advice for AI to be handing out right now.



    It was updated to support 1 of 7 multitasking features. Each feature must be added to the app, by the developer, separately. It's a terrible way of doing things.
  • Reply 27 of 47
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    It was updated to support 1 of 7 multitasking features. Each feature must be added to the app, by the developer, separately. It's a [great] way of doing things.



    Fixed that for you.
  • Reply 28 of 47
    desuserigndesuserign Posts: 1,316member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post


    Spoken like someone who'd never shipped software.



    Two facts to consider:



    1. Most apps in the AppsStore are pulling in less than minimum wage. This is true for almost all of them below the top 0.001% (200 out of 200,000).



    2. If iOS developers were allowed to use high-level frameworks and tools they'd be able to update their apps in a fraction of the time needed to recode them by hand in C/C++/Obj-C.



    No wonder you have such a poor view of the money your apps can earn—they probably don't run properly! (200 out of 200,000 is 1 out of 1000, or 0.1%,—NOT 0.001% ) Think of the damage you could do if you "were allowed to use high-level frameworks!"
  • Reply 29 of 47
    sipsip Posts: 210member
    I use an app called iEphemeris on my iPhone 3GS (3.1.2) and it also installed nicely on the iPad. An update showed up and as usual, I simply clicked on the download button, emptied my trash of all the old apps and sync'd the iPad.



    The updated version is iOS4 only, and did not install on the iPad, so now I have to look for the last version and install that or wait until the fall when iOS4 comes to the iPad.



    Now how clever is that??
  • Reply 30 of 47
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post


    Clever use of "enough", since of course that's subjective. There are many reasons to make apps, and not all of them involve direct ROI; many have strategic value to the publisher which makes turning out a money-losing app still worthwhile for other reasons.



    For those those developers who do this for a living, direct ROI is still an important consideration. And iOS ain't no gold mine.



    Apparently you failed to note the other link I added to that thread which showed general iPhone OS stats with similar percentages as for iPad-specific apps:



    http://www.tuaw.com/2010/04/21/estim...ng-372k-a-day/



    If you have better stats please share.



    Sure. 225,000 apps on the iPhone vs 50,000 on Android. And that's even allowing for the fact that many of the Android apps were rejected from the Apple store because they weren't good enough. So Apple has more than 4:1 quantity advantage and at least some quality advantage (since apps rejected by Apple are on Android).



    So, apparently, developers see iOS as being the place to develop. That matters a lot more than your unfounded opinions.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmz View Post


    What is the point of this post? I cannot find one.



    Apple releases a major OS update that, in order to function as advertised, requires utmost haste and cooperation from the developer community. This, is not my problem.



    As a user, it becomes my problem when I download the advertised software, and it does not work as it should. How should it work? At the bare minimum, every app on my phone should have been updated to support fast app switching before the switch was even thrown for 4.0.



    Beyond that, I believe the rest should updated very shortly after release, albeit when ready. There is still no excuse for fast app switching to not be already in use by every app store app.



    If I were Apple I would have made it mandatory for keeping your Apps in the store after June 21st. I also would have given them 6 months to accomplish it.



    Most of your information is false.



    1. As reported in this article, it usually takes almost no effort to update an app for iOS 4. In many cases, it's simply a matter of recompiling - so it's largely a non-issue.



    2. Even if you don't update your app, it will still work fine in iOS 4. I don't know of any examples of apps that stopped working (although with 225,000 apps out there, there might be one or two).



    3. Why should Apple demand that the developers keep their apps? If the developers don't do anything, the app remains in the store and continues to work on iOS devices. Why make an issue? OTOH, the developer has plenty of incentive to update their app (which takes very little effort) if they want to maximize their user experience?



    4. The 'excuse' for fast app switching to not already be in every app is that it's irrelevant for the overwhelming majority of apps. I was talking with my daughter's dance teacher yesterday. She wants to buy an iPad but her son told her not to because it wouldn't run two apps at the same time. She asked if that was true and I explained to her that she could listen to the radio while reading a book and that's all she wanted. Everything besides background music was fluff in her mind. On the iPhone, I would add the ability to make a phone call while doing something else. "multitasking' was added more as a checklist item to make geeks and reviewers happy than because there is any real need for it on a phone or iPad.
  • Reply 31 of 47
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post


    No wonder you have such a poor view of the money your apps can earn?they probably don't run properly! (200 out of 200,000 is 1 out of 1000, or 0.1%,?NOT 0.001% )



    Well played: create a ruse out of a typo to avoid talking about the issue at hand.



    No matter how you slice and dice those digits, please note that they're to the right of the decimal point. 99.9% of App Store apps making below minimum wage is still no gold mine.



    You are of course free to believe whatever you like, but as your math shows most iOS devs would do better to flip burgers.



    Enjoy your iFart and your How Old Is Your Cat? apps. Be sure to save two dollars so you can get the latest spinning animated fan app for your iPad. Nothing says quality like spending two bucks for an animation of a fan.
  • Reply 32 of 47
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    The 'excuse' for fast app switching to not already be in every app is that it's irrelevant for the overwhelming majority of apps. I was talking with my daughter's dance teacher yesterday. She wants to buy an iPad but her son told her not to because it wouldn't run two apps at the same time. She asked if that was true and I explained to her that she could listen to the radio while reading a book and that's all she wanted.



    Do you remember life before MultiFinder?



    Welcome to 1987.
  • Reply 33 of 47
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,759member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    Overall, Sykora said, "I've found the transition to iOS 4 to be very painless. I think a big reason for this is that I develop in Objective C and use the native frameworks whenever I can. Apple has done the work to support developers using their tools but if a developer is using a 3rd party abstraction layer their lives will get quite a bit more complicated. Maybe this is a moot point since most of those have been restricted in the new dev agreement anyway."



    But Apple was just being vindictive and mean by not allowing 3rd party frameworks! It has nothing to do with quality of apps or the developer experience, just Steve Jobs ego!



  • Reply 34 of 47
    desuserigndesuserign Posts: 1,316member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post


    Well played: create a ruse out of a typo to avoid talking about the issue at hand.



    No matter how you slice and dice those digits, please note that they're to the right of the decimal point. 99.9% of App Store apps making below minimum wage is still no gold mine.



    You are of course free to believe whatever you like, but as your math shows most iOS devs would do better to flip burgers.



    Enjoy your iFart and your How Old Is Your Cat? apps. Be sure to save two dollars so you can get the latest spinning animated fan app for your iPad. Nothing says quality like spending two bucks for an animation of a fan.



    When did disingenuous lying and exaggeration become a "typo?"

    Hmm, over $1 Billion in sales through the App Store, $700 Million of which has been paid directly to developers. No other costs for distribution, the retailer, returns, etc.

    Then there's ad revenue. Considering so many apps are offered for free, its not a bad payoff. Maybe your apps suck.



    Not everyone gets a million dollars a month like Tapulous, and the App Store could be implemented better, but really, minimum wage? Perhaps you should try some other line of work?
  • Reply 35 of 47
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,759member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by s4mb4 View Post


    how many devs leave because they have to update their app so many times....



    Only the unsuccessful ones. Or ones that won't be missed anyway.



    No platform is immune from updates - and no other platform makes it as easy to ensure your users are updated as the iOS and App Store.



    So if this is the best shot you have, your either not a developer or just have an ax to grind against Apple. Success isn't by quantity, but quality. If Apple's market share vs. market cap doesn't drive that point home I don't know what other analogy or point I could use that you could hope to understand.
  • Reply 36 of 47
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,759member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post


    Two facts to consider:



    If we are to believe your "facts" then there are lots of really stupid people doing lots of manual work for little reward. And this is supposed to compel or move us to...
  • Reply 37 of 47
    docno42docno42 Posts: 3,759member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by RationalTroll View Post


    And iOS ain't no gold mine.



    Compared to what?



    And for not being a "gold mine" there sure is a heck of a lot of money being made and tons of activity!



    Or are we back to the "stupid devs" that need to be saved from wasting their time by the likes of you?
  • Reply 38 of 47
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DESuserIGN View Post


    When did disingenuous lying and exaggeration become a "typo?"

    Hmm, over $1 Billion in sales through the App Store, $700 Million of which has been paid directly to developers. No other costs for distribution, the retailer, returns, etc.

    Then there's ad revenue. Considering so many apps are offered for free, its not a bad payoff. Maybe your apps suck.



    Not everyone gets a million dollars a month like Tapulous, and the App Store could be implemented better, but really, minimum wage?



    With your resorting to personal attacks I see you're keeping it as classy as you're able to.



    Don't shoot the messenger.



    Review the stats, and consider what "L-shaped curve" means.



    Quote:

    Perhaps you should try some other line of work?



    I'm doing far better than every iOS developer not in the top 50. My secret? I don't spend my money deploying to iOS, for a number of reasons not the least of which is that even if you get approved - multiple times - you can still get your app Steved at any time:

    http://apple.slashdot.org/story/10/0...ore-Developers



    So tell us: Are your apps in the top 100, or do you make minimum wage, or are you not a developer at all and your parroting of Steve's talking points is all purely hypothetical to you?
  • Reply 39 of 47
    anonymouseanonymouse Posts: 6,950member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by IrrationalTroll View Post


    With your resorting to personal attacks I see you're keeping it as classy as you're able to. ...



    I mean, I know you're a troll and all but, oh, the irony.



    Let's review: you suck at math and have demonstrated that you have no idea what you are talking about, and your numbers are manufactured to begin with. But, let's assume they could be correct.



    How does this compare with other platforms of similar age and characteristics, in both absolute numbers and percentages of developers making an actual living from independent software development, the amount of money those developers are making, etc? Oh, and you're going to need to tell us where all the numbers are from, and how they were arrived at, because, well, otherwise, they are just about as valid as your comments on enabling apps for fast app switching.



    What's that? Oh, you don't have actual numbers? Oh, that's right, you're a troll.
  • Reply 40 of 47
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jragosta View Post


    Sure. 225,000 apps on the iPhone vs 50,000 on Android. And that's even allowing for the fact that many of the Android apps were rejected from the Apple store because they weren't good enough. So Apple has more than 4:1 quantity advantage and at least some quality advantage (since apps rejected by Apple are on Android).



    Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?



    Would you kindly explain the lack of "quality" in MyFrame?:

    http://apple.slashdot.org/story/10/0...ore-Developers



    And just how much "quality" would you say these apps represent?:

    http://gizmodo.com/5555853/the-apple...+%28Gizmodo%29



    http://blog.chipp.com/are-2-million-...-a-good-thing/
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