So, it seems that they still haven't provided a version for mobile with acceptable performance. Frankly, given the nature of the technology, that shouldn't be a surprise. As much as they don't want to admit it, it's likely simply not possible to have good performance and Flash.
Let us know how long your battery lasts.
Battery life ain't great. Looking at the battery usage stats, my browser power usage has gone from usually under 5% to about 17%. That said, it's still the screen that seems to do the most damage. Watch anything for 2 hours, and you'll go through the battery. So it's not as bad as I expected it to be.
But the system lagginess. The browser page laginess. All that's annoying.
Battery life ain't great. Looking at the battery usage stats, my browser power usage has gone from usually under 5% to about 17%. That said, it's still the screen that seems to do the most damage. Watch anything for 2 hours, and you'll go through the battery. So it's not as bad as I expected it to be.
But the system lagginess. The browser page laginess. All that's annoying.
I wouldn't be doing this on a regular basis.
But I can put up with it to watch some Football!
But now imagine if all web developers jumped on Flash because it was a universal and portable standard, and suddenly ALL the content you viewed and used (including your apps from the AppStore) was Flash. Not so good.
Adobe has been polishing this turd for years. It might be a bit shinier now, but its still a turd. Don't take SJ's word for it, do your own research.
But now imagine if all web developers jumped on Flash because it was a universal and portable standard, and suddenly ALL the content you viewed and used (including your apps from the AppStore) was Flash. Not so good.
Adobe has been polishing this turd for years. It might be a bit shinier now, but its still a turd. Don't take SJ's word for it, do your own research.
Well, I think he just did, and he can correct me if I'm mistaken, but the verdict seemed to be that it was an interesting novelty, but, no, he wouldn't want all his content as Flash. This seems to be a sort of anti technology demo. Adobe has demonstrated Flash running on one mobile platform and shown that, despite what we can justifiably assume to be their utmost efforts, it sucks.
But now imagine if all web developers jumped on Flash because it was a universal and portable standard, and suddenly ALL the content you viewed and used (including your apps from the AppStore) was Flash. Not so good.
Adobe has been polishing this turd for years. It might be a bit shinier now, but its still a turd. Don't take SJ's word for it, do your own research.
Nowhere have I ever defended Flash. However, it's a reality of the web today. I'd rather have the ability to watch a few World Cup matches on my phone or view a restaurant's menu (for whatever reason this genre tends to be Flashtastic all the time) then not at all.
In the end, if the capability is not there, who's losing out? Me.
I still won't be patronizing sites that are Flash heavy. And I don't think we'll see apps (even on Android) that are Flash heavy because they just won't run as smoothly. I think the transition to HTML 5 is inevitable. But I'd like to not be cut off from the vast trove of web content before that happens.
It took awhile but I am starting to see things Apple's way on this one.
Adobe says Apple is holding them hostage. But if Apple continues to rely on an outside provider (Flash) then Adobe can hold Apple hostage pretty much anytime they want to. A cleaner example would be: What if Apple did not provide iWork. Then Microsoft could hold Apple hostage over a wordprocesser.
I think Steve may be right. Also, this could be precisely the right timing for this shift away from Flash.
If that's true (and not I'm saying it is or isn't) then Apple didn't make the decision to ban Flash from Appledom for the sake of its users, but did so for the sake of its business interests. Nothing wrong with that. But they should be honest about it.
... But I'd like to not be cut off from the vast trove of web content before that happens.
Vast trove? Yes, those porn site operators do like to remain anonymous.
But, seriously, I think your own experience points out quite clearly that Google and Adobe are just giving people false hope here. Flash just isn't suitable for mobile, but by insisting that it is and that it's coming, people delay what will be an inevitable move away from it, wanting to avoid having to do something new. They will eventually have to throw off their denial and do it anyway, but they are cutting themselves off from a huge number of eyeballs in the meantime, and taking the risk that, in the meantime, someone who isn't buying into Adobe's empty promises will take the opportunity to eat their lunch.
If that's true (and not I'm saying it is or isn't) then Apple didn't make the decision to ban Flash from Appledom for the sake of its users, but did so for the sake of its business interests. Nothing wrong with that. But they should be honest about it.
There are two parts to this. First, Apple doesn't want Flash or any meta-platform because it gets in the way of developers taking advantage of native capabilities. Secondly, they don't want Flash player because they don't want performance and user experience to suck. In both of these cases, what's good for Apple is also good for users. So, are they doing it for themselves or for the users? The right answer isn't apparent if you engage in dichotomous thought. In fact, they do it for users because it's good for them too, which doesn't mean they are being entirely altruistic, nor does it mean they are being entirely selfish. It means that they can and do make choices that are good for both parties, and it's mistaken to try to paint them into either corner.
If that's true (and not I'm saying it is or isn't) then Apple didn't make the decision to ban Flash from Appledom for the sake of its users, but did so for the sake of its business interests. Nothing wrong with that. But they should be honest about it.
In an 'ideal' world they should be honest about it as everyone should be honest about their motives, I guess, but no business is ever honest about their motives. Or rather - they never tell the full story. On the other hand we all know that the primary driver for most business decisions is profit. The picture is more complicated than that but the one thing we do know is that no business makes decisions that is not in their strategic interest.
[QUOTE=solipsism;1658501This "see we technically have it running on one version of one mobile OS on one device" is nothing more than a Pyrrhic victory they are trying to spin into a masterful "told you so" against Apple...[/QUOTE]
@ solipsism: thanks for my belly laugh of the day! Pyrrhic victory indeed!
I think Jobs "bashing" Flash was more to light a fire under their butts than to "kill" the platform...
If Adobe gets it together and solves the issues Jobs has put forward, I mean really solves them (and they really are valid points), I could easily imagine Apple saying something like, "that's better", and allowing it in...
The thing is, I don't see Adobe getting it polished enough (to Jobs' satisfaction) in time before HTML 5 really takes hold. Entrenching their technology (going the MS route) without seriously improving it over time doesn't help anyone. Least of all users. It seems like their focus has been more about deepening the trench instead of really getting the issues seen to...
It's their loss if they can't get onboard the forward moving train... I've seen some of what HTML 5 can do, and it eliminates 80% ~ 90% (or more) of Flash's advantage... and you can bookmark HTML 5 pages. One of the great downsides to Flash since the beginning.
I wonder how many people will disable flash on their new flash-10.1 capable phone.
you have to want it to install it or want to enable it to run it in the browser. it doesnt automatically download things on web pages. it has a flashblock like functionality where it doesnt download unless you ask it to. There's nothing "evil" about having flash on android. in fact, of all the things I'll miss about this HTC EVO, flash will be the largest one. I was able to play video on nearly every site I visited just using flash lite and from everything i've seen flash 10.1 allows much better framerates in video as well as more compatibility with other sites (likely the ones using AS3). this plugin was badly needed to get people weened off of as1-as2 code where flash lite has kept them. as1-as2 is a large reason why there's crappy performance on flash. as3 is up to 10 times as fast and flash player 10 improves on that even more.
mac still sucks with their player. hardware video decoding isn't going to fix that. it's something with the way the stupid thing garbage collects that causes the player to skip. i fucking hate flash on mac. they REALLY need to fix it in a big way and stop dicking around making new products to leverage their flash frameworks.
If anyone doubted that Google has no commitment to quality nor real interest in promoting open standards, this should be the final nail in that coffin. They really have no principles that they live by other than greed, and their only commitment is to do anything they can to undermine whatever stands in their way. And I use the word "undermine" deliberately. Google isn't about creating something great that can succeed on it's own merits. They are about investing as little as possible of their own efforts and then trying to succeed by monkey-wrenching everyone else.
I don't think they will succeed with this particular ploy, but it doesn't really matter to them, just like it doesn't really matter to them whether WebM/VP8 is really viable as an "open" video format. They create wreckage when and where they can and try to profit from the destruction when it occurs.
I think they care about open, but they care about making money more. The thing that bugs me is just how shameless they are in twisting things around. To call Flash freedom from Apple's closed oppression is such ridiculous garbage. Funny that these same Adobe enthusiasts & google fanboys will dump on Silverlight all day long, failing to realize Flash is exactly the same closed type system!
I just can't stand hypocrites. At least Apple is stating openly that their decision was a business one, they are betting on the HTML5 horse as the way of the future. Given Apple has been right about technology trends for just about the last 10 years I think I'll go with Apple.
We can all hope that flash move out enough before Android tablets gets out so the impact of having it is not to great.
In the mean time its sucks to the roof to not be able to access my cable TV channels on my ipad because the ipad is the device I have when I would need to access them. Same goes for plenty of channels I dont even have on cable but are broadcast using flash on the web.
[QUOTE=paxman; I guess, but no business is ever honest about their motives. Or rather - they never tell the full story. On the other hand we all know that the primary driver for most business decisions is profit. The picture is more complicated than that but the one thing we do know is that no business makes decisions that is not in their strategic interest.[/QUOTE]
If a company doesn't make a decision for there own interest what the product is concerned you can not be a real company. If a floppy was excluded in a PC, it was a disadvantage, yes it was for some people during the transition time. If you don't do it, you also could have preferred to stay in the stone age. Computers were created to increase productivity. Some people lost there job because of it. If you see the boost and the opportunity it provides is amazing. Flash is past and get over it. Look at the future.
I think they care about open, but they care about making money more. The thing that bugs me is just how shameless they are in twisting things around. ...
Well, that's because they have no principles besides greed and a desire to "dominate". I really do think however that they completely cynical when it comes to "open", and that they only care about it as a way to manipulate minds.
Actually, it's not. This announcement is the final (I think it is the 8th GM, IIRC) release version. They've had 3 years to work on the beta.
And even though it's a final version, reports are that it's still not very good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz
If that's true (and not I'm saying it is or isn't) then Apple didn't make the decision to ban Flash from Appledom for the sake of its users, but did so for the sake of its business interests. Nothing wrong with that. But they should be honest about it.
And that's the point you consistently refuse to understand. Apple's business interests ARE to make things better for their users. Apple does well by focusing relentlessly on user experience. You simply can't separate Apple's business interests from improving user experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetz
Nowhere have I ever defended Flash. However, it's a reality of the web today.
It's essentially nonexistent for mobile devices today (yes, today's announcement means that a few tenths of a percent of mobile users will have Flash. BFD). You don't seem to understand that just because something is prevalent on desktop computers doesn't make it feasible for mobile users.
And even its use on desktop computers is far less critical than it once was, as well. Whether you can thank Apple for that or click-to-flash remains to be seen.
I don't understand the recent hype, I've had flash on my phone for weeks (Droid Incredable)
Basically preforms really well, except games run choppy. However it never seems to affect the phone, so scrolling and zooming are smooth, response time is the same. Games are somewhat unplayable at this point tho, only the lower end games can be played well. But Adobe did a great job not letting it affect the system, I noticed no performance drop when using flash even while running choppy games. Although this also could be great cpu management by android.
Web-based apps work great. For example I wanted to know how fast my internet connection is, and used http://www.speedtest.net/ which works flawless on my phone. I got around 2Mb/s DL and 0.4Mb/s with two bars 3G. Told me it was average for my ISP (Verizon). Cool.
This is a good example of an cross platform flash app (speedtest) as its already used on desktops and soon multiple mobile platforms. Basically a flash developer can make an App once and have it available to most all mobile devices + any other computer running flash.
Another advantage is that I can play any embedded video, whether it be from youtube or anywhere right from my browser. This has helped me a lot.
Overall Adobe did a great job, if you don't have flash yet you may not believe that they were able to implement it so well, but once you really try it out you'll see how smooth it runs. And I only have 2.1 so far, Android 2.2 is supposed to increase my performance by like 430% or something crazy.
I was very impressed. When I got flash about a month ago it completely changed the way I use my mobile device, it becomes closer to being a substation for a full blown computer every month. I think Apple is secretly refining it, and going to release is as a big feature of iOS 4.1 with really cool add features, that would be very Apple-like.
Comments
So, it seems that they still haven't provided a version for mobile with acceptable performance. Frankly, given the nature of the technology, that shouldn't be a surprise. As much as they don't want to admit it, it's likely simply not possible to have good performance and Flash.
Let us know how long your battery lasts.
Battery life ain't great. Looking at the battery usage stats, my browser power usage has gone from usually under 5% to about 17%. That said, it's still the screen that seems to do the most damage. Watch anything for 2 hours, and you'll go through the battery. So it's not as bad as I expected it to be.
But the system lagginess. The browser page laginess. All that's annoying.
I wouldn't be doing this on a regular basis.
But I can put up with it to watch some Football!
Battery life ain't great. Looking at the battery usage stats, my browser power usage has gone from usually under 5% to about 17%. That said, it's still the screen that seems to do the most damage. Watch anything for 2 hours, and you'll go through the battery. So it's not as bad as I expected it to be.
But the system lagginess. The browser page laginess. All that's annoying.
I wouldn't be doing this on a regular basis.
But I can put up with it to watch some Football!
But now imagine if all web developers jumped on Flash because it was a universal and portable standard, and suddenly ALL the content you viewed and used (including your apps from the AppStore) was Flash. Not so good.
Adobe has been polishing this turd for years. It might be a bit shinier now, but its still a turd. Don't take SJ's word for it, do your own research.
But now imagine if all web developers jumped on Flash because it was a universal and portable standard, and suddenly ALL the content you viewed and used (including your apps from the AppStore) was Flash. Not so good.
Adobe has been polishing this turd for years. It might be a bit shinier now, but its still a turd. Don't take SJ's word for it, do your own research.
Well, I think he just did, and he can correct me if I'm mistaken, but the verdict seemed to be that it was an interesting novelty, but, no, he wouldn't want all his content as Flash. This seems to be a sort of anti technology demo. Adobe has demonstrated Flash running on one mobile platform and shown that, despite what we can justifiably assume to be their utmost efforts, it sucks.
But now imagine if all web developers jumped on Flash because it was a universal and portable standard, and suddenly ALL the content you viewed and used (including your apps from the AppStore) was Flash. Not so good.
Adobe has been polishing this turd for years. It might be a bit shinier now, but its still a turd. Don't take SJ's word for it, do your own research.
Nowhere have I ever defended Flash. However, it's a reality of the web today. I'd rather have the ability to watch a few World Cup matches on my phone or view a restaurant's menu (for whatever reason this genre tends to be Flashtastic all the time) then not at all.
In the end, if the capability is not there, who's losing out? Me.
I still won't be patronizing sites that are Flash heavy. And I don't think we'll see apps (even on Android) that are Flash heavy because they just won't run as smoothly. I think the transition to HTML 5 is inevitable. But I'd like to not be cut off from the vast trove of web content before that happens.
It took awhile but I am starting to see things Apple's way on this one.
Adobe says Apple is holding them hostage. But if Apple continues to rely on an outside provider (Flash) then Adobe can hold Apple hostage pretty much anytime they want to. A cleaner example would be: What if Apple did not provide iWork. Then Microsoft could hold Apple hostage over a wordprocesser.
I think Steve may be right. Also, this could be precisely the right timing for this shift away from Flash.
If that's true (and not I'm saying it is or isn't) then Apple didn't make the decision to ban Flash from Appledom for the sake of its users, but did so for the sake of its business interests. Nothing wrong with that. But they should be honest about it.
Let's see how this improves as time goes by.
... But I'd like to not be cut off from the vast trove of web content before that happens.
Vast trove? Yes, those porn site operators do like to remain anonymous.
But, seriously, I think your own experience points out quite clearly that Google and Adobe are just giving people false hope here. Flash just isn't suitable for mobile, but by insisting that it is and that it's coming, people delay what will be an inevitable move away from it, wanting to avoid having to do something new. They will eventually have to throw off their denial and do it anyway, but they are cutting themselves off from a huge number of eyeballs in the meantime, and taking the risk that, in the meantime, someone who isn't buying into Adobe's empty promises will take the opportunity to eat their lunch.
If that's true (and not I'm saying it is or isn't) then Apple didn't make the decision to ban Flash from Appledom for the sake of its users, but did so for the sake of its business interests. Nothing wrong with that. But they should be honest about it.
There are two parts to this. First, Apple doesn't want Flash or any meta-platform because it gets in the way of developers taking advantage of native capabilities. Secondly, they don't want Flash player because they don't want performance and user experience to suck. In both of these cases, what's good for Apple is also good for users. So, are they doing it for themselves or for the users? The right answer isn't apparent if you engage in dichotomous thought. In fact, they do it for users because it's good for them too, which doesn't mean they are being entirely altruistic, nor does it mean they are being entirely selfish. It means that they can and do make choices that are good for both parties, and it's mistaken to try to paint them into either corner.
If that's true (and not I'm saying it is or isn't) then Apple didn't make the decision to ban Flash from Appledom for the sake of its users, but did so for the sake of its business interests. Nothing wrong with that. But they should be honest about it.
In an 'ideal' world they should be honest about it as everyone should be honest about their motives, I guess, but no business is ever honest about their motives. Or rather - they never tell the full story. On the other hand we all know that the primary driver for most business decisions is profit. The picture is more complicated than that but the one thing we do know is that no business makes decisions that is not in their strategic interest.
@ solipsism: thanks for my belly laugh of the day! Pyrrhic victory indeed!
If Adobe gets it together and solves the issues Jobs has put forward, I mean really solves them (and they really are valid points), I could easily imagine Apple saying something like, "that's better", and allowing it in...
The thing is, I don't see Adobe getting it polished enough (to Jobs' satisfaction) in time before HTML 5 really takes hold. Entrenching their technology (going the MS route) without seriously improving it over time doesn't help anyone. Least of all users. It seems like their focus has been more about deepening the trench instead of really getting the issues seen to...
It's their loss if they can't get onboard the forward moving train... I've seen some of what HTML 5 can do, and it eliminates 80% ~ 90% (or more) of Flash's advantage... and you can bookmark HTML 5 pages. One of the great downsides to Flash since the beginning.
Just my opinion... don't flame me
I wonder how many people will disable flash on their new flash-10.1 capable phone.
you have to want it to install it or want to enable it to run it in the browser. it doesnt automatically download things on web pages. it has a flashblock like functionality where it doesnt download unless you ask it to. There's nothing "evil" about having flash on android. in fact, of all the things I'll miss about this HTC EVO, flash will be the largest one. I was able to play video on nearly every site I visited just using flash lite and from everything i've seen flash 10.1 allows much better framerates in video as well as more compatibility with other sites (likely the ones using AS3). this plugin was badly needed to get people weened off of as1-as2 code where flash lite has kept them. as1-as2 is a large reason why there's crappy performance on flash. as3 is up to 10 times as fast and flash player 10 improves on that even more.
mac still sucks with their player. hardware video decoding isn't going to fix that. it's something with the way the stupid thing garbage collects that causes the player to skip. i fucking hate flash on mac. they REALLY need to fix it in a big way and stop dicking around making new products to leverage their flash frameworks.
If anyone doubted that Google has no commitment to quality nor real interest in promoting open standards, this should be the final nail in that coffin. They really have no principles that they live by other than greed, and their only commitment is to do anything they can to undermine whatever stands in their way. And I use the word "undermine" deliberately. Google isn't about creating something great that can succeed on it's own merits. They are about investing as little as possible of their own efforts and then trying to succeed by monkey-wrenching everyone else.
I don't think they will succeed with this particular ploy, but it doesn't really matter to them, just like it doesn't really matter to them whether WebM/VP8 is really viable as an "open" video format. They create wreckage when and where they can and try to profit from the destruction when it occurs.
I think they care about open, but they care about making money more. The thing that bugs me is just how shameless they are in twisting things around. To call Flash freedom from Apple's closed oppression is such ridiculous garbage. Funny that these same Adobe enthusiasts & google fanboys will dump on Silverlight all day long, failing to realize Flash is exactly the same closed type system!
I just can't stand hypocrites. At least Apple is stating openly that their decision was a business one, they are betting on the HTML5 horse as the way of the future. Given Apple has been right about technology trends for just about the last 10 years I think I'll go with Apple.
Adobe has been polishing this turd for years. It might be a bit shinier now, but its still a turd.
Yes, a hot steaming stinky turd from "My shit don't stink" Adobe. Stay away from it or the flies will get you.
In the mean time its sucks to the roof to not be able to access my cable TV channels on my ipad because the ipad is the device I have when I would need to access them. Same goes for plenty of channels I dont even have on cable but are broadcast using flash on the web.
There are no Apps for those sites yet.
My cable TV provider webTv:
http://illicoweb.videotron.com/illic...action?lang=en
French "hulu" site:
http://www.tou.tv/
If a company doesn't make a decision for there own interest what the product is concerned you can not be a real company. If a floppy was excluded in a PC, it was a disadvantage, yes it was for some people during the transition time. If you don't do it, you also could have preferred to stay in the stone age. Computers were created to increase productivity. Some people lost there job because of it. If you see the boost and the opportunity it provides is amazing. Flash is past and get over it. Look at the future.
I think they care about open, but they care about making money more. The thing that bugs me is just how shameless they are in twisting things around. ...
Well, that's because they have no principles besides greed and a desire to "dominate". I really do think however that they completely cynical when it comes to "open", and that they only care about it as a way to manipulate minds.
One thing to keep in mind is that this is a beta.
Let's see how this improves as time goes by.
Actually, it's not. This announcement is the final (I think it is the 8th GM, IIRC) release version. They've had 3 years to work on the beta.
And even though it's a final version, reports are that it's still not very good.
If that's true (and not I'm saying it is or isn't) then Apple didn't make the decision to ban Flash from Appledom for the sake of its users, but did so for the sake of its business interests. Nothing wrong with that. But they should be honest about it.
And that's the point you consistently refuse to understand. Apple's business interests ARE to make things better for their users. Apple does well by focusing relentlessly on user experience. You simply can't separate Apple's business interests from improving user experience.
Nowhere have I ever defended Flash. However, it's a reality of the web today.
It's essentially nonexistent for mobile devices today (yes, today's announcement means that a few tenths of a percent of mobile users will have Flash. BFD). You don't seem to understand that just because something is prevalent on desktop computers doesn't make it feasible for mobile users.
And even its use on desktop computers is far less critical than it once was, as well. Whether you can thank Apple for that or click-to-flash remains to be seen.
Remind me why Flash is necessary? Anyone?
Basically preforms really well, except games run choppy. However it never seems to affect the phone, so scrolling and zooming are smooth, response time is the same. Games are somewhat unplayable at this point tho, only the lower end games can be played well. But Adobe did a great job not letting it affect the system, I noticed no performance drop when using flash even while running choppy games. Although this also could be great cpu management by android.
Web-based apps work great. For example I wanted to know how fast my internet connection is, and used http://www.speedtest.net/ which works flawless on my phone. I got around 2Mb/s DL and 0.4Mb/s with two bars 3G. Told me it was average for my ISP (Verizon). Cool.
This is a good example of an cross platform flash app (speedtest) as its already used on desktops and soon multiple mobile platforms. Basically a flash developer can make an App once and have it available to most all mobile devices + any other computer running flash.
Another advantage is that I can play any embedded video, whether it be from youtube or anywhere right from my browser. This has helped me a lot.
Overall Adobe did a great job, if you don't have flash yet you may not believe that they were able to implement it so well, but once you really try it out you'll see how smooth it runs. And I only have 2.1 so far, Android 2.2 is supposed to increase my performance by like 430% or something crazy.
I was very impressed. When I got flash about a month ago it completely changed the way I use my mobile device, it becomes closer to being a substation for a full blown computer every month. I think Apple is secretly refining it, and going to release is as a big feature of iOS 4.1 with really cool add features, that would be very Apple-like.