"France is for the French" - Le Pen
I can't say that I follow French politics (I don't), but this article on CNN.com's front page caught my eye:
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/21/france.election/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/21/france.election/index.html</a>;
I don't know what exactly is going on here... but CNN calls Le Pen "far right". I mean, left for the French is pretty far left in the United States. So I'm not sure how to judge this one.
I am a Republican here in the US. And I wouldn't say I am moderate-- but certainly not extremist or "far right". When I hear "far right" (especially abroad) I think of racisms and fascisms*. Like I said, I don't know what "far right" is for the France. And I am certainly not calling Le Pen a fascist-- before today, I had never even heard of him! I certainly can't make a judgment.
So here's what I'd like to discuss what this means for:
1. the EU, where France has been a leader in EU ideology.
2. French military. (recalling that the US will not "...trade Washington for Paris".)
3. Relations with the US. (not forgetting environmental and economic)
4. France's official standing on the Middle East.
4.5. Jews living in France
For once France may be further right than Britain. That's a bit of a change.
*it's my view that as you go further right, you start to leave what I would call the Republican party and go into something else...
[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: Arakageeta ]
[edit: Le Pen isn't the PM - J.]
[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: Jonathan ]</p>
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/21/france.election/index.html"; target="_blank">http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/21/france.election/index.html</a>;
I don't know what exactly is going on here... but CNN calls Le Pen "far right". I mean, left for the French is pretty far left in the United States. So I'm not sure how to judge this one.
I am a Republican here in the US. And I wouldn't say I am moderate-- but certainly not extremist or "far right". When I hear "far right" (especially abroad) I think of racisms and fascisms*. Like I said, I don't know what "far right" is for the France. And I am certainly not calling Le Pen a fascist-- before today, I had never even heard of him! I certainly can't make a judgment.
So here's what I'd like to discuss what this means for:
1. the EU, where France has been a leader in EU ideology.
2. French military. (recalling that the US will not "...trade Washington for Paris".)
3. Relations with the US. (not forgetting environmental and economic)
4. France's official standing on the Middle East.
4.5. Jews living in France
For once France may be further right than Britain. That's a bit of a change.
*it's my view that as you go further right, you start to leave what I would call the Republican party and go into something else...
[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: Arakageeta ]
[edit: Le Pen isn't the PM - J.]
[ 04-21-2002: Message edited by: Jonathan ]</p>
Comments
What's astounding to me is the diversity of candidates in this first round of the Presidential elections. I believe something close to 16 ran, representing something like 10 parties; and most were projected to pull a significant (i.e. 5 or more percent) of the vote. Especially interesting was the presence of 3(?) Trotskyist candidates... and then the evidently rampant popularity of someone so far to the other end of the political spectrum (Le Pen)..... all in one country.
Peut-être les AI Français peuvent nous éclairer un peut?
North Africans? They're dominatly Muslim, correct? Question: does that make the party anti-Muslim or anti-Muslims-in-France?
<strong>Oh gees! I'm sorry. I've made a bit of an idoit of myself. I didn't realize that this was only the first round of elections. Sorry all.
don't worry... this is still rather significant as only the top 2 go through to next round...
I believe it's more anti-muslim-north africans in france...
This is big news!
He does not like jews, gays, blacks, muslims, other europeans in France. Hmmm, who does that sound like?? (I wonder if he thinks of himself as and ubermensch?)
On the bright side he only got 20% ish of the vote (3/4 of all people voted. low for France) so it does not reflect the general pop.
These aren't necessarily French problems, however. Neither is the voter apathy which allowed for the skewed result in this first ballot. It's become endemic - and highlights how democracy has become deeply troubled in the industrialized world.
Cheers,
Mark.
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1943000/1943007.stm"; target="_blank">France stunned by Le Pen success</a>
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1942000/1942612.stm"; target="_blank">Shock success for French far right</a>
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1942000/1942898.stm"; target="_blank">In pictures: French presidential upset</a>
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1942000/1942910.stm"; target="_blank">Analysis: Le Pen's final triumph</a>
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1942000/1942929.stm"; target="_blank">European dismay over Le Pen vote</a>
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1943000/1943094.stm"; target="_blank">European press review</a>
[ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: MRE ]</p>
Cultural purity and superiority seems to be mainstream in France. Le Pen is just another expression of that.
I can tell you one thing though, its not an anti-mulsim feeling, its an anti-North African (Moroccans, Algerians, Tunisians, etc etc) feeling. I get harassed by them every damn time I go out whether they are 8 year old kids that hussle you for the hell of it or 20 year old kids that pull a knife on you or hit you down to take your cell phone. To be honest, while everyone I know is open to them and tries to not be racist, its them that have to take the first step towards acceptance. THEY are the racists and Im really not surprised that places like France, Belgium, and parts of Northern Italy and the Netherlands is fed up with them ruining everything they come in contact with.
Anyway, illegal immigration has to be absolutely curbed here. We cant have thousands of desperate people landing on the shores of Italy and Spain every damn day. We can't continue to ignore the grave social issues that are creating a rift through many European societies. If these issues are not addressed, I would hate to see anything violent or even close, i dare say, to what happened in WW2. I have been to North Africa many many times and they are generally nice people... I dont understand why they have to come to Europe and decide to destroy everything in their wake.
The fact that LePen is in the final elections reflects this perfectly. Europeans, French, are scared because they do not feel safe and many European states, in the name of openess, liberty, and political correctness, have left the floodgate open for years... creating pretty damn big messes all over the place.
I'm not even a native European and I feel the tension everytime I go out. Getting eye balled when you go places... having to keep your stare away so they dont have an excuse to start a brawl or whatnot. You have no clue how many times I have decided to just walk away from 'discussions' that were started for no reason except macho-ism and stupidity... I've gotten in my fair share of fights and these people are totally unpredicatble. They'll pull a knife and have 20 other friends on you in a matter of seconds. A friend told off a small group of them because they were trying to steal a bicycle next to his house... he ended up with a slashed face from a broken bottle and has to have platic surgery done. Nice way to life in your OWN country.
despite all this, I am not for confrontation. I much prefer dialog as violence resolves nothing in the long run. Its a short term relief, but usually makes things much worse. I would vote for LePen too if it meant results now and not, God forbid, something tragic later. However, the fact that he is openly 'against everything and everyone not French' is worrying. Thats just sick.
Thugs who rob you or hustle you? Check
Illegal immigration? Check
Voting for racists? Err... that's France's job
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Europeans are getting to know their Arab neighbors ? but not all Arabs are like that ? Really.
mika.
[ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
So, for candidates like LePen, Stioger(?) from Bavaria in Germany, to Rassmussen in Denmark, to Burlesconi in Italy, the tide is turning right. I guess it that out of a 16 candidate first round runoff, no one expected Jospin to be in 3rd and out of it the runoff with Chriac.
Lastly, people probably voted quietly for LePen because Politically Correctness is rife so pollsters couldn't forecast his sucess. The turnout was also low.
In some aspects, its seem earily spooky and reminiscent to the 1930's Europe with something about to erupt here.
Cheers.....
BTW, forgive my bastardization of spelling these leaders names above....
exactly eat@me, its more of an economic factor rather than the 'american dream' type thing. They setup their little (or big in many cases) ghettos and just hole up. Then when local police go out and arrest them for crimes they commit, they have the nerve to say that they get arrested because they are a minority. Stuff like that bothers me.
PC^KILLA: The maghreb arabs are quite different from Arabs in the more 'asian' middle-east (Syria, Egypt, Jordan, etc). I have visited those countries often and they are most often some of the nicest people I have ever met.
Whats worrying about the Arab culture that I have found is recurring is that they are very cunning and essentially 'merchant like'. Not always, but they will agree with you to get their way, but actually dont give a damn. Many times though, they are genuinely generous.
Whats going on in Israel has nothing to do with this thread and I dont want to start on that since we have plenty of other threads for that.
Bottom line is: There IS a problem going on here and it must be addressed to soon. Ignoring it will lead to citizens taking up their own actions (read: bigger neo-nazi groups, random vandalization, and other barbaric acts.... we cannot put ourselves on their same primordial level) and the whole situation will just go to hell. This has to be approached in strength, but cautiously and with as much civility as possible in such a difficult situation. We live in a democracy right? Well hell, we want safety and an end or MAJOR curbing to illegal immigration. That is the will of the people... of the majority that is...
Personaly i have voted Chirac , despite many critics i have against him, because when you vote you must have a positive attitude . Many french people where sick of their politics (perhaps french people are waiting too much from the state and their politics) and they decide to show their angryness byÂ*a negative vote : the extremist vote, right winged or left winged. The people from the left wanted to say to Jospin that they where not happy with his politic and they decided to give him an advertissement byÂ*an extremist vote. This people thinked that in the second turn of the vote, they will go back to vote for Jospin. But they where stupid in theÂ*french election the second turn is only between the too biggest candidate. and the second biggest candidate was Le Pen and not Jospin. So now Jospin is out, and the people from the left have no candidate any more, the next time they will think twice before voting for extremist (many workers : 30 % have voted for le Pen).
The second turn will be between Chirac and Le Pen, except the left winged, all the left parties (including the socialist the green the communist) decided to vote for Chirac : they call this a republican vote against a facist vote : le Pen.
So you can be almost sure that Chirac will be the next president. Some institute bet that Chirac will win by 80 % against 20 %.
The legislative vote will be a more different problem, i fear that the left may win again, and that will have an another cohabitation.
[ 04-22-2002: Message edited by: powerdoc ]</p>
I am half french and have spent a lot of time in Paris. I also consider myself very liberal. But I do see why people are voting for Le Pen. The country is simply being ruined by all of the immigration.
My great aunt lives in Paris and is 86 years old. She has been mugged by arab kids on average 3 times for each of the past 5 years. And she is carefull too! That is ****ing rediculous!!!
mika.
The underlying fact is that this is an emerging trend that is not unique to france but all of europe. australia is another issue (think tampa boat crisis).
while there are 30,000 protesters (i cant see why they protest as it was the people who voted and that is democracy in action), there are at least 5 million that voted for L:ePen and recieved 17% of the vote. Does not sound like much but Chirac recieved 20% thereabouts. The fractionous other liks the Trotsky party stole it from Jospin. While I am not French and therefor should have no say in the matter, I was not a fan of Jospin. He seemed like a defeatist.
If you are French, not to worry, it will pass and you a part of a larger trend in europe.
best and this is a good well thought and articulated discussion.