Blu-ray chairman disagrees with Apple chief's assessment of format

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  • Reply 81 of 218
    bregaladbregalad Posts: 816member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Cory Bauer View Post


    Blu-ray releases sales figures; iTunes movie sales are so poor Apple won't release them. Needless to say, iTunes movie sales don't even come close to blu-ray sales, which is what makes Steve's comments all the more absurd. 40% of Avatar's physical media sales were on blu-ray. I didn't hear Apple crowing about how many copies they sold.



    Currently the only way to distribute a 3D movie is BluRay. I think that helps explain the 40% BD share for Avatar.



    As the movie and TV industries move forward with 3D, iTunes is stuck at sub-par, pseudo-720p and really cannot go forward unless and until Apple, the internet backbone, local ISPs and that last mile into our homes can cope with 100 million people wanting to stream 1080 3D at the same time. I think we're going to be waiting at least another decade before the infrastructure meets those requirements and who knows what amazing new bandwidth demanding technology will have been developed by then.
  • Reply 82 of 218
    kotatsukotatsu Posts: 1,010member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bregalad View Post


    Currently the only way to distribute a 3D movie is BluRay. I think that helps explain the 40% BD share for Avatar.



    As the movie and TV industries move forward with 3D, iTunes is stuck at sub-par, pseudo-720p and really cannot go forward unless and until Apple, the internet backbone, local ISPs and that last mile into our homes can cope with 100 million people wanting to stream 1080 3D at the same time. I think we're going to be waiting at least another decade before the infrastructure meets those requirements and who knows what amazing new bandwidth demanding technology will have been developed by then.



    Please get your facts straight before you post. The Avatar BD is 2D, and the special edition BD released later this year will also be 2D. Avatar in 3D on BD won't arrive until next year.
  • Reply 83 of 218
    asciiascii Posts: 5,936member
    Maybe Steve is right that 720p downloads will be quickly, widely adopted. But I think it depends on how many people have actually seen a Blu Ray in person. Because I have to say they look incredible.



    And it's not the 1080p that does it, it's the additional bitrate.



    I recently ripped all my DVDs to my HD. I had resisted doing it for years, because I didn't want the (slight) loss of quality that comes with re-encoding. And you really have to re-encode, because MPEG2 files are just too big. But it occurred to me - "So what?" - DVDs are low quality to begin with by today's standards.



    The point is, I think that people's (not just me) expectation of video quality have gone up in recent years, after being static for the longest time. And it is not really Blu Ray that has done it, but HDTV. And so people expect their movies they buy to be at least as good as TV.
  • Reply 84 of 218
    kotatsukotatsu Posts: 1,010member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FreeRange View Post


    Excuse me but you seem to be the idiot. You apparently know nothing about Apple or else you wouldn't have made such a stupid statement. Apple is famous for NOT raising prices while at the same time improving the features and functions of the newest model (faster processors, more memory, speedier graphics, higher resolution screens) WITHOUT raising the price = providing even greater value! The other key factor about blu-ray is that the movies sold on these disks are ridiculously expensive! A ripoff by the studios. The benefit of watching blu-ray content on a smaller computer screen is minimal and not even worth arguing about. Its a large screen format.



    Maybe in the US. Here in the UK Apple hikes it's prices a lot. Check the price of a top end iMac here vs in the US. When you stop laughing tell me what you think.



    And as for BD prices, you get what you pay for. DVDs look like crap. BDs look amazing. Simple as that really.
  • Reply 85 of 218
    kotatsukotatsu Posts: 1,010member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post


    Well you can enjoy waiting a minute for the disc to load, I mean, for the disc to make sure you haven't "modified" your BD player, or update the firmware on your player to pointlessly patch the keys on it or be able to play the latest BS Java protection, or be forced to watch all the promos.



    The rest of us will open up a file and be on our way



    That's hilarious. Have you ever seen a Blu-Ray movie? A minute (perhaps on older players, not on a PS3) wait for the menu to pop up is a small, small price to pay for 45mbit 1080p video with lossless audio.



    Compare to a 5mbit 720p DD5.1 iTunes download. See the difference? I know I do.
  • Reply 86 of 218
    krabbelenkrabbelen Posts: 243member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dlux View Post


    I can't believe this is still the case. As for licensing, build it into the cost of an add-on BR option and let customers make the decision.



    It would be one thing if most Macs didn't already have an optical drive of some sort, and Apple was hesitant to add something entirely new. But instead they added a SD card slot into the latest Mini while still including the standard DVD drive. Just add it as an option and see if customers are willing to pay for the upgrade. There's almost no risk for Apple to do so (especially on the already-expensive Mac Pro, which offers a second optical drive and other esoteric options such as a fibre-channel card!)



    I think it is more complicated than just swapping one drive out for another. Sure on my old Macs I used to swap a CD-ROM drive for a DVD-ROM or SuperDrive in 2 minutes, start to finish (whether IDE or SCSI).



    But I think the "bag of hurt" is all to do with securing the computer's graphics/video system, isn't it? Don't MS and PC makers have to get some kind of DRM on to their graphics channel and ports, so that BlueRay content can't be recorded anywhere within or outside the computer -- BlueRay content is allowed to be watched on a supported monitor only?



    If this is the case, then that tech has to go into ALL Macs, not just the ones for people who opt for the BlueRay drive. And that adds cost to all Macs.
  • Reply 87 of 218
    krabbelenkrabbelen Posts: 243member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post


    Maybe in the US. Here in the UK Apple hikes it's prices a lot. Check the price of a top end iMac here vs in the US. When you stop laughing tell me what you think.



    And as for BD prices, you get what you pay for. DVDs look like crap. BDs look amazing. Simple as that really.



    The apparent hike in price really isn't that big of a deal -- and I speak as a dual national who lives in Europe...



    The UK quoted price does include VAT of at least 17 percent (19.5 here in Netherlands); the USA quoted price does not include sales tax, so add 6-9+ percent to US prices, depending on State. That brings the prices much closer together than at first glance. The US does not have a VAT.



    Add fluctuating currencies, and that accounts for some more difference. I cross-check prices a lot using real-time currency rate comparisons, and in real terms it goes up and down. Depends what currency is up or down. Sometimes the UK price is 150 dollars less than the Euro price, sometimes the other way round.



    Yes, you could probably save 100 or 150 dollars per 1000 on a large item at any given moment by buying in the US (40 - 90 Pounds depending on the exchange rate on the day), but it's not a ridiculous difference, because most electronics are cheaper in the States. It just costs more to do business in Europe than in the States -- higher rent, more taxes, lower volumes, etc. So, I do not think it is simply a case that "in the UK Apple hikes it's prices a lot". I think they are being as fair as they can be.



    My dad's picking up an iPad for me in the States (not available in NL yet); sure I save a little, but I thought I was saving more until he told me about the sales tax -- and I have to wait a few weeks before I meet up with him in UK and see it, meantime he's playing with it! (if someone picks one up in the States for you, they should unbox it and use it a little before bringing it over).
  • Reply 88 of 218
    ckh1272ckh1272 Posts: 107member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sprockkets View Post


    Bluray is good for one thing and one thing only: 1080p MKV rips. No DRM, no BS on cutting down the audio or bit rate or resolution, just h.264 HQ rips.



    Long live Thepiratebay.org!



    Nice to see the advocacy of theft. Can we get that in writing?? The MPAA might be interested in your statements. BTW, I am joking but not.
  • Reply 89 of 218
    jfanningjfanning Posts: 3,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post


    If this is the case, then that tech has to go into ALL Macs, not just the ones for people who opt for the BlueRay drive. And that adds cost to all Macs.



    People have already mentioned that if you attach a USB blu-ray drive and boot you Mac to Windows you can watch blu-ray movies, so all this technology must already exist in the Macs.
  • Reply 90 of 218
    zoolookzoolook Posts: 657member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post


    Check AI front page first. It was the first story today.



    Oops, I missed that.



    On Blu-Ray, it'd be nice if Aple gave its customers the choice to have or not have Blu-Ray in their Macs. This isn't the same as the Flash debate at all. The new Mac Mini should have been given a Blu Ray choice... it would have made it a very tempting machine even for people who wouldn't normally buy a Mac.
  • Reply 91 of 218
    akhomerunakhomerun Posts: 386member
    Lack of Blu-ray hasn't stopped anyone from buying a Mac or any other computer.



    The minority of computers are sold with Blu-ray drives. No software comes on it, and there's no cost advantage to burning Blu-ray data discs. It's cheaper to just buy a large hard drive. It's probably still cheaper to just buy DVDs.



    I have a 16 GB flash drive that can fit multiple HD titles, and I paid about $30 for it. I can play these videos on a PS3 or Xbox 360, or any computer. Why would I limit myself to only having Blu-ray compatibility when so many more devices are compatible with USB?



    People don't even realize that they can burn Blu-ray discs. People don't burn discs anymore, period, and if they do, they are probably burning DVDs. I just don't see it happening, it takes a large amount of time to burn a DVD and most people I know have no clue how to do it.



    Everyone is using an iPod for music, and online on-demand rentals, or Netflix/Redbox for their media needs. The average joe will soon discover the merits of flash media. There is no place for burning media in this day and age.



    My Macbook might as well not have a disc drive because I never use it (Please Apple, can I have a proper netbook? How about a higher quality netbook for around $600? Surely you can manage a huge margin at that price.)
  • Reply 92 of 218
    kotatsukotatsu Posts: 1,010member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by krabbelen View Post


    The apparent hike in price really isn't that big of a deal -- and I speak as a dual national who lives in Europe...



    The UK quoted price does include VAT of at least 17 percent (19.5 here in Netherlands); the USA quoted price does not include sales tax, so add 6-9+ percent to US prices, depending on State. That brings the prices much closer together than at first glance. The US does not have a VAT.



    Add fluctuating currencies, and that accounts for some more difference. I cross-check prices a lot using real-time currency rate comparisons, and in real terms it goes up and down. Depends what currency is up or down. Sometimes the UK price is 150 dollars less than the Euro price, sometimes the other way round.



    Yes, you could probably save 100 or 150 dollars per 1000 on a large item at any given moment by buying in the US (40 - 90 Pounds depending on the exchange rate on the day), but it's not a ridiculous difference, because most electronics are cheaper in the States. It just costs more to do business in Europe than in the States -- higher rent, more taxes, lower volumes, etc. So, I do not think it is simply a case that "in the UK Apple hikes it's prices a lot". I think they are being as fair as they can be.



    My dad's picking up an iPad for me in the States (not available in NL yet); sure I save a little, but I thought I was saving more until he told me about the sales tax -- and I have to wait a few weeks before I meet up with him in UK and see it, meantime he's playing with it! (if someone picks one up in the States for you, they should unbox it and use it a little before bringing it over).



    Not sure how you have reached that conclusion, but in my experience the difference in price between US and UK is far more than 17.5%.



    A few examples:



    iPad 16gb - $499 US / £429 UK ($648) US inc 17.5% $586

    iMac 27" quad - $1999 US / £1634 UK ($2468) US inc 17.5% ($2348)

    Mac Mini - $699 US / £649 UK ($980) US inc 17.5% ($821)



    Some pretty healthy margins on those UK inflated prices. Apple are being far from fair, - they're simply ripping UK (and I can imagine all EU) customers off.
  • Reply 93 of 218
    kotatsukotatsu Posts: 1,010member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by akhomerun View Post


    Lack of Blu-ray hasn't stopped anyone from buying a Mac or any other computer.



    Speak for yourself. The lack of BD in Macs is why I still use a desktop Win 7 PC.
  • Reply 94 of 218
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post


    That's hilarious. Have you ever seen a Blu-Ray movie? A minute (perhaps on older players, not on a PS3) wait for the menu to pop up is a small, small price to pay for 45mbit 1080p video with lossless audio.



    Compare to a 5mbit 720p DD5.1 iTunes download. See the difference? I know I do.



    I think you're overestimating the average consumer. I have Blu-Ray and while it's better than the average DVD (especially with upsampling), it's not like watching Hi-Def compared to 1960s Black and White. It's a very subtle difference - and if the movie's any good, you'll be watching the movie rather than examining pixels.



    That's the problem we're at with BD (and computers, and audio, and so on). In the past, purchases were driven by the new product being such an overwhelming improvement over the previous version that there was a huge incentive to go out and buy. If you're watching VHS which is a 50 on a scale of 1 to 100 and DVD is a 90, you'll buy. If you have a DVD at 90 and BD comes out at 98, it's not as big a driving force.



    {The same thing is true of computers. My newest computer is 3 years old - and I have no desire to upgrade it. It's plenty fast for what I do. In the past, I was ready for a new one after about 2 years - and almost always upgraded by year 3. Technology has improved to the point that it exceeds the average user's needs by a large enough margin that there's no more automatic upgrade cycle the way there was in the past}



    That's not to say that people won't buy BD, but that there's less built in pressure to do so. Classic case where price is going to have a huge impact. If Blu-Ray discs were the same price as DVD, I'd switch over. Since BD is twice as much some times, I don't buy as many.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by akhomerun View Post


    The minority of computers are sold with Blu-ray drives. No software comes on it, and there's no cost advantage to burning Blu-ray data discs. It's cheaper to just buy a large hard drive. It's probably still cheaper to just buy DVDs.



    I have a 16 GB flash drive that can fit multiple HD titles, and I paid about $30 for it. I can play these videos on a PS3 or Xbox 360, or any computer. Why would I limit myself to only having Blu-ray compatibility when so many more devices are compatible with USB?



    Those are great points. First, price is too high. Given that there's no overwhelming quality advantage (see above), they should have been pushing for rapid adoption by pricing it at close to the same price as DVD. Instead, they got greedy, slowing adoption.



    Second, it's all about compatibility. When I buy a movie, I'd like to be able to watch it on my TV, but also load it onto my iPad, my daughter's iPod, or play it on a portable DVD player or computer. Because of the cost and licensing restrictions of BD, that's not going to happen any time soon.



    Bottom line is that the Blu-Ray consortium was greedy. Instead of pushing for rapid adoption and wide-spread sales, they decided to add onerous DRM and to set extremely high pricing - both of which slow adoption. The result is that BD doesn't drive the market they way they should at this stage in the cycle.
  • Reply 95 of 218
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kotatsu View Post


    Not sure how you have reached that conclusion, but in my experience the difference in price between US and UK is far more than 17.5%.



    A few examples:



    iPad 16gb - $499 US / £429 UK ($648) US inc 17.5% $586

    iMac 27" quad - $1999 US / £1634 UK ($2468) US inc 17.5% ($2348)

    Mac Mini - $699 US / £649 UK ($980) US inc 17.5% ($821)



    Some pretty healthy margins on those UK inflated prices. Apple are being far from fair, - they're simply ripping UK (and I can imagine all EU) customers off.



    Those differences are mostly not all that large (other than the Mini). Try comparing US car prices to UK prices if you want to see a real difference.



    The problem, though, is that you're assuming that the cost of doing business is the same in the UK as in the US. You have very different laws and rules and it costs more to do business there. The prices reflect that.



    The bottom line is that there's a price for a product. You decide if you want to buy that product or not. Whining about "it's too expensive" doesn't do you any good. If enough people refuse to buy, the company drops its prices. If lots of people buy, then the price is OK. So far, the latter appears to be the case.
  • Reply 96 of 218
    rob55rob55 Posts: 1,291member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post


    I've never seen a Blu-Ray movie. I'm sure they look great but how great and at what price? I really enjoy DVDs on my computer. My 23" DVI connected screen at 1900 X 1080 plays those discs great. How much sharper can a video be? If I knew someone with a Blu-Ray screen I'd ask them to show me the same movie in Blu-Ray and DVD. I'd go rent the same movie in DVD format if they didn't have it just so I could see the difference.



    The difference between Blu-ray and DVD is readily apparent to me on a 46" 1080p screen. It's too bad you don't know anyone who can properly demonstrate it to you.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post


    DVDs are a great medium but they are in the same boat as CDs it's just taking longer for the market to get into saving or buying digital copies of movies. Maybe that won't happen as fast. If DVDs go away for digital downloads I don't think Blu-Ray will last any longer.



    The thing I hate about CDs, CD ROMs, and DVDs is they degrade due to oxidation of the aluminum inside them. There are companies that make discs with gold as the recording medium. Since gold doesn't tarnish those should last as long as the plastic lasts. They cost a fortune.



    I've got CD's that are 25+ years old and they play just fine. As a matter of fact, of the 1500 some-odd CD's that I own, I don't think I've ever had a disk fail due to oxidation. Actually, I don't think I've ever had a CD fail that I didn't accidentally destroy myself. My DVD's are doing just fine as well. My oldest DVD, a copy of the Clint Eastwood flick "In The Line Of Fire", is going on 13 years old and it played fine just last month.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post


    My life is just fine without Blu-Ray discs. Perhaps they'll just end up being for videophiles.



    Hey, each to his own and I get that, but this is a classic example of the "ignorance is bliss" mentality. Blu-ray is not for everyone as it is obvious that you need other supporting components to take full advantage of what it has to offer. The unfortunate thing is, many people like yourself, have written it off without actually giving it a fair shot.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Smallwheels View Post


    Too many things in life are about price not quality. That is why I think Blu-Ray is destined to fail.



    This is the sad unfortunate fact my friend. I've said this before, but it's disheartening that we are constantly being conditioned to settle for less. Even worse is that many are settling. Just look at digital downloads, they've outpaced CD's at a fraction of the quality and for what, instant gratification. And on top of it all, the music labels sell it for practically the same price as a regular CD. Now, it looks like video is poised to follow in music's footsteps.
  • Reply 97 of 218
    dluxdlux Posts: 666member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by akhomerun View Post


    Lack of Blu-ray hasn't stopped anyone from buying a Mac or any other computer.



    Stated as fact. Would you be willing to back up that assertion with a bet? I can come up with five people who have held off buying new computers (two just for the latest Mac Mini alone) because they didn't have BD drives. They're simply holding back with their current machines, waiting for a compelling reason to upgrade. Inclusion of a BD drive would have tipped the scales for them.





    Quote:

    The minority of computers are sold with Blu-ray drives. No software comes on it, and there's no cost advantage to burning Blu-ray data discs. It's cheaper to just buy a large hard drive. It's probably still cheaper to just buy DVDs.



    Where did disc-burning come from?!? I don't think people here are promoting BluRay players just so they can use them for burning. It's primarily about playback.
  • Reply 98 of 218
    sendmesendme Posts: 567member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ckh1272 View Post


    Nice to see the advocacy of theft. Can we get that in writing?? The MPAA might be interested in your statements.





    So far, Americans are free to advocate pretty much anything they want. Many people like it that way.
  • Reply 99 of 218
    rob55rob55 Posts: 1,291member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dlux View Post


    Stated as fact. Would you be willing to back up that assertion with a bet? I can come up with five people who have held off buying new computers (two just for the latest Mac Mini alone) because they didn't have BD drives. They're simply holding back with their current machines, waiting for a compelling reason to upgrade. Inclusion of a BD drive would have tipped the scales for them.



    Count me as one of those people. I would definitely have bought a 27" iMac last year if it had at least come with a BTO option for a Blu-ray drive.
  • Reply 100 of 218
    sendmesendme Posts: 567member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by akhomerun View Post


    Lack of Blu-ray hasn't stopped anyone from buying a Mac or any other computer.



    People don't even realize that they can burn Blu-ray discs.



    People don't burn discs anymore, period,



    Everyone is using an iPod for music,






    All true.
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