Then you haven't read enough. And please don't presume to teach me about 'the regulars' here.
Truly laugh out loud. or, more accurately, chortle. I've read enough here. It looks like you want to tar posters who don't agree with you with the "apple-can-do-no-wrong, fanboi" brush. You are as closed-minded as those whom you would write-off.
I love the arrogance in the second sentence. I wasn't presuming to teach you anything, merely relaying an observation. You can disagree, as is your right. Oh, but your join date is several years before mine, it appears, so I should bow to your authority?
Truly laugh out loud. or, more accurately, chortle. I've read enough here. It looks like you want to tar posters who don't agree with you with the "apple-can-do-no-wrong, fanboi" brush. You are as closed-minded as those whom you would write-off.
talk about missing the point. There are many posters that I disagree with but respect. These are not the ones that simply try to shut down discussions, usually with something involving calling others whiners and telling them to STFU. Those, I don't respect. And I am very open minded. I am a long time Apple fan, but am open enough to recognize problems. Others are much less open minded.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sennen
I love the arrogance in the second sentence. I wasn't presuming to teach you anything, merely relaying an observation. You can disagree, as is your right. Oh, but your join date is several years before mine, it appears, so I should bow to your authority?
No arrogance. Just seemed weird that you were acting like you know better how 'regulars' act. Don't bow to me or my 'authority'. But don't act like you know better. Please.
You see any problems with that exchange unnecessarily draining Apple's coffers? if you have a working phone and you exchange it simply because you can, in order to extend its value, that seems fair? You legitimately received what you paid for and it has no problems. By taking advantage of an exchange policy, in order to get a bit more than you paid for seems a bit unfair to Apple.
It doesn't sound much different than a 'scam' being run on CostCo a few years ago. They always had an extremely generous return policy and still do. Have a problem or just want to return it, feel free, no matter how old it is. But, years ago, it applied even more liberally and applied to the PCs and electronics. At one point, they had a problem where people would buy a PC, keep it for a year and then return it, even though there were no problems. Costco's policy, was if you had a receipt, you got your cash back. They would take the cash and buy a new PC. This would be repeated over and over. Costco wised up and their return policy was modified a few years ago to limit PC returns to 60 or 90 days. After that, they can be serviced under warranty, no refunds.
How is that any different that than taking advantage of Apple to get a new phone, even if yours has no problems?
Interesting questions. And valid for you to ask.
I am a long time Apple customer (since 1978) and have a significant part of my portfolio invested in AAPL.
I said I would consider an exchange and gave a few reasons that might influence me to do so.
I also have some overriding core values that (hopefully) influence me to make decisions that are morally and ethically correct.
I usually will act out of self-interest.
I don't know the answers to your questions!
But, let me offer this: I am 70 years old, comfortable-- my race is run and I have nothing to prove to anybody. In my business and personal life, I can honestly state that I have never intentionally screwed anyone on any issue of significance to them.
I usually assume that others reciprocate this value, and although wary, never assume that anyone is out to screw me. Several have... but they never get a second chance!
When/if the time comes to make the decision, hopefully, I, like Apple will do the right thing!
Steve should ask the numerologist ... Apple Computer has an 8 Destiny number ....
I think you are looking for the witchcraft and magic forum. This kind of numerological nonsense has really no place here.
Religious topics tend to destroy rational discourse (for obvious reasons), and generally send the debate "off the rails." Also, this isn't even *mainstream* religious nonsense, it's numerology for cripes sake, which has been discounted and disproven over and over and over again.
Maybe you are just making fun and I didn't get it?
Sometimes Apple does its best work when recovering from an error. For example mistakes made in the late '90s when Apple failed to anticipate the explosion of .mp3 popularity, didn't think CD burners were that important and shipped many models without them. They got slapped pertty hard in the marketplace, got Religion and went on to produce iTunes, which layed the groundwork for the whole iPod/iPhone ecosystem that reinvigorated the company and made it relevant again.
So don't be surprised if they use this mistake as an impetus to really make iPhone by far the best in terms of signal acquisition and processing.
I am a long time Apple customer (since 1978) and have a significant part of my portfolio invested in AAPL.
I said I would consider an exchange and gave a few reasons that might influence me to do so.
I also have some overriding core values that (hopefully) influence me to make decisions that are morally and ethically correct.
I usually will act out of self-interest.
I don't know the answers to your questions!
But, let me offer this: I am 70 years old, comfortable-- my race is run and I have nothing to prove to anybody. In my business and personal life, I can honestly state that I have never intentionally screwed anyone on any issue of significance to them.
I usually assume that others reciprocate this value, and although wary, never assume that anyone is out to screw me. Several have... but they never get a second chance!
When/if the time comes to make the decision, hopefully, I, like Apple will do the right thing!
.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply you would be doing anything unethical. You haven't ever refused to acknowledge that there was a possible problem nor behaved insultingly to those that do believe there is a problem. I would do the same thing (if I had been able to buy one yet) even if I couldn't reproduce it, because I would acknowledge that if Apple is doing the exchange it is possible an inherent problem.
My questions are more for those that do not believe there is a problem or at least have claimed confidence that they do not have a unit that has the problem. For those, at best, exchanging it would be hypocritical and at worst, it would be taking advantage of and costing Apple money, for no apparent reason. They would be the same to me, as those people I described that would return their equipment to CostCo, simply to get a newer unit. Their rationale was usually that it was OK because CostCo allowed it.
The *real* reason for the con call is to place all the blame on AT&T and to announce that the iPhone will be available on Verizon effective today with expected sales of 5 million Verizon iPhones over the weekend.
Yeah cause Verizon is soooo perfect that none of these problems could possibly exist with them
Quote:
Originally Posted by StLBluesFan
Verizon is thanking their lucky stars they didn't get the first exclusive iPhone contract.
Except they were offered it. If not before ATT, at the same time. It was Verizon refusing to give up design and feature control that lost them the deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nealg
I think that Apple will give a gift certificate for a bumper/case as well as an extension to the time period you can return the phone without questions asked.
Unlikely and no.
The bumper won't solve the issues for everyone cause for at least some it is simply ATT in that area sucks. And the blowback of "Apple slapped a case on my phone and tried to fool me into thinking that was the solution for their crappy phone" is not what they need right now
And the 30 days, which is already an extension of their return policy, is set that way due to ATT's ETF policy. I can't see ATT allowing someone to return a phone for any reason more than 30 days in and not charge them that cost. And Apple has no power to override that call and isn't likely to dish out any money to cover it for folks.
So it would stand as 30 days for a straight up return and after that a service exchange just like always.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas
Of course it wouldn't. Even when Apple was 'beleaguered' they received far more media attention than their size would merit. Now that they are wildly successful they get even more attention, deservedly.
Actually no it isn't exactly 'deservedly' because now they are receiving tons of negative press when it's not really called for. For every praising article there's 20 negative ones. And most of those negative ones are blown way out of proportion. If even one unit of anything has an issue, Apple F'd up again, released a product before it was ready, horrible design mistake, blah blah. Forgetting that with anything as complex as a computer, a phone, a whatever, some lemons will happen. And Apple rarely has more than 1-2% occurrences and immediately moves to fix the issues (when it is actually their issue and not ATT's service etc). That's way better than most other companies
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulkas
You see any problems with that exchange unnecessarily draining Apple's coffers? if you have a working phone and you exchange it simply because you can, in order to extend its value, that seems fair? You legitimately received what you paid for and it has no problems. By taking advantage of an exchange policy, in order to get a bit more than you paid for seems a bit unfair to Apple.
IF Apple makes a hardware change, they see it as your right to make the exchange. So no you aren't taking advantage at all. It's the price of customer satisfaction. Same reason they let you exchange the laptop you bought for two weeks after they release a new one even though technically it's 3 and a half weeks after you actually bought it. And if you aren't a total douche, many managers will waive the restock fee (which is their call).
Quote:
It doesn't sound much different than a 'scam' being run on CostCo a few years ago. They always had an extremely generous return policy and still do. Have a problem or just want to return it, feel free, no matter how old it is.
There will always be those that play games. CostCo set themselves up. That's on them.
The NYP is a tabloid. They have no sources of any authority or knowledge and they will post all rumors as fact about everything -- tech, celebrity, whatever.
I would believe Wu has a clue before I'd believe anything in the Post.
Sadly, AI continues to ignore making distinctions about the track record of analysts (AI does occasionally bring it up when quoting media sources).
Take Shaw Wu's comments with a very large grain of salt. He is not a star-rated analyst.
Abramsky and Marshall actually are star-rated analysts meaning their predictions are more accurate than those of their peers (as judged by StarMine).
I wish Apple rumor sites would stop taking all analysts' statements as gospel. There are good Apple analysts and there are bad ones. Apple rumor sites should point out the accuracy of their sources. Very easy to find: just visit Yahoo Finance.
Thank you for providing this service.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpamSandwich
It just doesn't feel like a complete "idiots on parade" until Katy Huberty weighs in.
Quote:
Originally Posted by minderbinder
Assuming there is a hardware update, even if the user sees no problems (and don't forget that it's entirely possible that the user's phone does have the problem but they just haven't been in an area with low enough signal to encounter it), it seems entirely reasonable to exchange it since presumably the updated version would perform better.
That presumption may not be true. Some have speculated that the way Apple will fix the problem is to make the antenna perform like the 3GS. Many people, who are now getting superior reception with the iP4, would get relatively worse reception with such a revised
Assuming there is a hardware update, even if the user sees no problems (and don't forget that it's entirely possible that the user's phone does have the problem but they just haven't been in an area with low enough signal to encounter it)
And don't forget issues like skin conductivity. Some people tend to have moist hands, some tend to have dry hands. That probably has a bearing on whether or not you'd notice a problem. Even if they did real-world tests with naked phones, if the tester had dry hands or was in a cool spot (remember this was being finalized in winter/spring), then the problem might not have arisen for them.
Apple announce they will be giving out free cases, stating that only .55 percent complained about reception issues, and that the 4G dropped almost 1 additional call out of one hundred calls compared to the 3GS.
Hype turned into fiction.
No wonder the return rate for 4G was so much lower than 3GS.
Apple announce they will be giving out free cases, stating that only .55 percent complained about reception issues, and that the 4G dropped almost 1 additional call out of one hundred calls compared to the 3GS.
Hype turned into fiction.
No wonder the return rate for 4G was so much lower than 3GS.
Apple presented some interesting background and the reception and dropped call numbersare interesting.
I suspect that Apple's workaround (free case) was necessary and sufficient for most users-- but will not satisfy all users. The full refund should address most of those.
There are a smaller number who want and expect a perfect device. They have a choice to make.
I would have liked to see Apple address the prox and 3G-3G handoff issues in more detail-- but these may require that any fix be cycled through FCC approval. So I'd give them some time!
Apple presented some interesting background and the reception and dropped call numbersare interesting.
I suspect that Apple's workaround (free case) was necessary and sufficient for most users-- but will not satisfy all users. The full refund should address most of those.
Some will be satisfied.
I wonder how long it will take CR to now list the iPhone 4 as 'Recommended'. After all, they said the only issue preventing that was Apple's failure to provide a free solution. Apple has done so. So time to follow through, CR.
I wonder how long it will take CR to now list the iPhone 4 as 'Recommended'. After all, they said the only issue preventing that was Apple's failure to provide a free solution. Apple has done so. So time to follow through, CR.
Will that make them suddenly credible in your eyes?
I agree, they should update their review TODAY. Not doing so will certainly make them less credible to me.
Apple presented some interesting background and the reception and dropped call numbersare interesting.
I suspect that Apple's workaround (free case) was necessary and sufficient for most users-- but will not satisfy all users. The full refund should address most of those.
There are a smaller number who want and expect a perfect device. They have a choice to make.
I would have liked to see Apple address the prox and 3G-3G handoff issues in more detail-- but these may require that any fix be cycled through FCC approval. So I'd give them some time!
.
Did you notice that the numbers they didn't release were the ones that would actually be useful? They didn't show anything that references how much signal loss was occurring on the other phones they showed or on the iPhone. The resorted to showing bars, which have been clearly shown to be essentially worthless.
Having big hands the antennae reception issue hits home. I'm constantly trying to grip this phone so my calls complete without interuption. My fear finally occured yesterday in the 97 degree heat here in Dallas. Trying to get reception the phone slipped through my unfamilar grip and shattered the back. Apple only wants it back for a $199 fee. Jobs admits problem, Consumer reports admits problem, customers admit problem but apples customer service will not. Call them and try to get them to admit. So I kind of feel like one of those Toyota owners who's gas pedal stuck and they drove through the garage... most owners just had stuck pedals with no serious outcomes. Most I phone 4 users just had frustrations. Me the issue wass the main cause of a broken phone. Hoping there's enough back-lash that these type issues are recognized too. Do you think Jobs will accept the return of my phone for a full refund!?
CR stated that the 'BUMPER' or a 'CASE' resolves the antenagate issue. ITS NOW TIME FOR CR TO GIVE THEIR VOTE OF APPROVAL AS EVERY IPHONE4 WILL COME WITH A CASE.
CR..........You made the call now follow through with your recommendation.
Comments
Then you haven't read enough. And please don't presume to teach me about 'the regulars' here.
Truly laugh out loud. or, more accurately, chortle. I've read enough here. It looks like you want to tar posters who don't agree with you with the "apple-can-do-no-wrong, fanboi" brush. You are as closed-minded as those whom you would write-off.
I love the arrogance in the second sentence. I wasn't presuming to teach you anything, merely relaying an observation. You can disagree, as is your right. Oh, but your join date is several years before mine, it appears, so I should bow to your authority?
Truly laugh out loud. or, more accurately, chortle. I've read enough here. It looks like you want to tar posters who don't agree with you with the "apple-can-do-no-wrong, fanboi" brush. You are as closed-minded as those whom you would write-off.
talk about missing the point. There are many posters that I disagree with but respect. These are not the ones that simply try to shut down discussions, usually with something involving calling others whiners and telling them to STFU. Those, I don't respect. And I am very open minded. I am a long time Apple fan, but am open enough to recognize problems. Others are much less open minded.
I love the arrogance in the second sentence. I wasn't presuming to teach you anything, merely relaying an observation. You can disagree, as is your right. Oh, but your join date is several years before mine, it appears, so I should bow to your authority?
No arrogance. Just seemed weird that you were acting like you know better how 'regulars' act. Don't bow to me or my 'authority'. But don't act like you know better. Please.
As has been mentioned, If you have a problem with the Iphone4 GET A FULL REFUND AND BE DONE WITH IT!
Its really sad to see how many people are complaining just 'to jump on the bandwagon'.
In any case I'm sure that after the Press conference on friday, a solution will be offered.
You see any problems with that exchange unnecessarily draining Apple's coffers? if you have a working phone and you exchange it simply because you can, in order to extend its value, that seems fair? You legitimately received what you paid for and it has no problems. By taking advantage of an exchange policy, in order to get a bit more than you paid for seems a bit unfair to Apple.
It doesn't sound much different than a 'scam' being run on CostCo a few years ago. They always had an extremely generous return policy and still do. Have a problem or just want to return it, feel free, no matter how old it is. But, years ago, it applied even more liberally and applied to the PCs and electronics. At one point, they had a problem where people would buy a PC, keep it for a year and then return it, even though there were no problems. Costco's policy, was if you had a receipt, you got your cash back. They would take the cash and buy a new PC. This would be repeated over and over. Costco wised up and their return policy was modified a few years ago to limit PC returns to 60 or 90 days. After that, they can be serviced under warranty, no refunds.
How is that any different that than taking advantage of Apple to get a new phone, even if yours has no problems?
Interesting questions. And valid for you to ask.
I am a long time Apple customer (since 1978) and have a significant part of my portfolio invested in AAPL.
I said I would consider an exchange and gave a few reasons that might influence me to do so.
I also have some overriding core values that (hopefully) influence me to make decisions that are morally and ethically correct.
I usually will act out of self-interest.
I don't know the answers to your questions!
But, let me offer this: I am 70 years old, comfortable-- my race is run and I have nothing to prove to anybody. In my business and personal life, I can honestly state that I have never intentionally screwed anyone on any issue of significance to them.
I usually assume that others reciprocate this value, and although wary, never assume that anyone is out to screw me. Several have... but they never get a second chance!
When/if the time comes to make the decision, hopefully, I, like Apple will do the right thing!
.
Steve should ask the numerologist ... Apple Computer has an 8 Destiny number ....
I think you are looking for the witchcraft and magic forum. This kind of numerological nonsense has really no place here.
Religious topics tend to destroy rational discourse (for obvious reasons), and generally send the debate "off the rails." Also, this isn't even *mainstream* religious nonsense, it's numerology for cripes sake, which has been discounted and disproven over and over and over again.
Maybe you are just making fun and I didn't get it?
So don't be surprised if they use this mistake as an impetus to really make iPhone by far the best in terms of signal acquisition and processing.
Interesting questions. And valid for you to ask.
I am a long time Apple customer (since 1978) and have a significant part of my portfolio invested in AAPL.
I said I would consider an exchange and gave a few reasons that might influence me to do so.
I also have some overriding core values that (hopefully) influence me to make decisions that are morally and ethically correct.
I usually will act out of self-interest.
I don't know the answers to your questions!
But, let me offer this: I am 70 years old, comfortable-- my race is run and I have nothing to prove to anybody. In my business and personal life, I can honestly state that I have never intentionally screwed anyone on any issue of significance to them.
I usually assume that others reciprocate this value, and although wary, never assume that anyone is out to screw me. Several have... but they never get a second chance!
When/if the time comes to make the decision, hopefully, I, like Apple will do the right thing!
.
Sorry, I wasn't trying to imply you would be doing anything unethical. You haven't ever refused to acknowledge that there was a possible problem nor behaved insultingly to those that do believe there is a problem. I would do the same thing (if I had been able to buy one yet) even if I couldn't reproduce it, because I would acknowledge that if Apple is doing the exchange it is possible an inherent problem.
My questions are more for those that do not believe there is a problem or at least have claimed confidence that they do not have a unit that has the problem. For those, at best, exchanging it would be hypocritical and at worst, it would be taking advantage of and costing Apple money, for no apparent reason. They would be the same to me, as those people I described that would return their equipment to CostCo, simply to get a newer unit. Their rationale was usually that it was OK because CostCo allowed it.
The *real* reason for the con call is to place all the blame on AT&T and to announce that the iPhone will be available on Verizon effective today with expected sales of 5 million Verizon iPhones over the weekend.
Yeah cause Verizon is soooo perfect that none of these problems could possibly exist with them
Verizon is thanking their lucky stars they didn't get the first exclusive iPhone contract.
Except they were offered it. If not before ATT, at the same time. It was Verizon refusing to give up design and feature control that lost them the deal.
I think that Apple will give a gift certificate for a bumper/case as well as an extension to the time period you can return the phone without questions asked.
Unlikely and no.
The bumper won't solve the issues for everyone cause for at least some it is simply ATT in that area sucks. And the blowback of "Apple slapped a case on my phone and tried to fool me into thinking that was the solution for their crappy phone" is not what they need right now
And the 30 days, which is already an extension of their return policy, is set that way due to ATT's ETF policy. I can't see ATT allowing someone to return a phone for any reason more than 30 days in and not charge them that cost. And Apple has no power to override that call and isn't likely to dish out any money to cover it for folks.
So it would stand as 30 days for a straight up return and after that a service exchange just like always.
Of course it wouldn't. Even when Apple was 'beleaguered' they received far more media attention than their size would merit. Now that they are wildly successful they get even more attention, deservedly.
Actually no it isn't exactly 'deservedly' because now they are receiving tons of negative press when it's not really called for. For every praising article there's 20 negative ones. And most of those negative ones are blown way out of proportion. If even one unit of anything has an issue, Apple F'd up again, released a product before it was ready, horrible design mistake, blah blah. Forgetting that with anything as complex as a computer, a phone, a whatever, some lemons will happen. And Apple rarely has more than 1-2% occurrences and immediately moves to fix the issues (when it is actually their issue and not ATT's service etc). That's way better than most other companies
You see any problems with that exchange unnecessarily draining Apple's coffers? if you have a working phone and you exchange it simply because you can, in order to extend its value, that seems fair? You legitimately received what you paid for and it has no problems. By taking advantage of an exchange policy, in order to get a bit more than you paid for seems a bit unfair to Apple.
IF Apple makes a hardware change, they see it as your right to make the exchange. So no you aren't taking advantage at all. It's the price of customer satisfaction. Same reason they let you exchange the laptop you bought for two weeks after they release a new one even though technically it's 3 and a half weeks after you actually bought it. And if you aren't a total douche, many managers will waive the restock fee (which is their call).
It doesn't sound much different than a 'scam' being run on CostCo a few years ago. They always had an extremely generous return policy and still do. Have a problem or just want to return it, feel free, no matter how old it is.
There will always be those that play games. CostCo set themselves up. That's on them.
Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/busines...#ixzz0trXtC5PE
The NYP is a tabloid. They have no sources of any authority or knowledge and they will post all rumors as fact about everything -- tech, celebrity, whatever.
I would believe Wu has a clue before I'd believe anything in the Post.
Sadly, AI continues to ignore making distinctions about the track record of analysts (AI does occasionally bring it up when quoting media sources).
Take Shaw Wu's comments with a very large grain of salt. He is not a star-rated analyst.
Abramsky and Marshall actually are star-rated analysts meaning their predictions are more accurate than those of their peers (as judged by StarMine).
I wish Apple rumor sites would stop taking all analysts' statements as gospel. There are good Apple analysts and there are bad ones. Apple rumor sites should point out the accuracy of their sources. Very easy to find: just visit Yahoo Finance.
Thank you for providing this service.
It just doesn't feel like a complete "idiots on parade" until Katy Huberty weighs in.
Assuming there is a hardware update, even if the user sees no problems (and don't forget that it's entirely possible that the user's phone does have the problem but they just haven't been in an area with low enough signal to encounter it), it seems entirely reasonable to exchange it since presumably the updated version would perform better.
That presumption may not be true. Some have speculated that the way Apple will fix the problem is to make the antenna perform like the 3GS. Many people, who are now getting superior reception with the iP4, would get relatively worse reception with such a revised
phone.
Assuming there is a hardware update, even if the user sees no problems (and don't forget that it's entirely possible that the user's phone does have the problem but they just haven't been in an area with low enough signal to encounter it)
And don't forget issues like skin conductivity. Some people tend to have moist hands, some tend to have dry hands. That probably has a bearing on whether or not you'd notice a problem. Even if they did real-world tests with naked phones, if the tester had dry hands or was in a cool spot (remember this was being finalized in winter/spring), then the problem might not have arisen for them.
Hype turned into fiction.
No wonder the return rate for 4G was so much lower than 3GS.
Apple announce they will be giving out free cases, stating that only .55 percent complained about reception issues, and that the 4G dropped almost 1 additional call out of one hundred calls compared to the 3GS.
Hype turned into fiction.
No wonder the return rate for 4G was so much lower than 3GS.
Apple presented some interesting background and the reception and dropped call numbersare interesting.
I suspect that Apple's workaround (free case) was necessary and sufficient for most users-- but will not satisfy all users. The full refund should address most of those.
There are a smaller number who want and expect a perfect device. They have a choice to make.
I would have liked to see Apple address the prox and 3G-3G handoff issues in more detail-- but these may require that any fix be cycled through FCC approval. So I'd give them some time!
.
Apple presented some interesting background and the reception and dropped call numbersare interesting.
I suspect that Apple's workaround (free case) was necessary and sufficient for most users-- but will not satisfy all users. The full refund should address most of those.
Some will be satisfied.
I wonder how long it will take CR to now list the iPhone 4 as 'Recommended'. After all, they said the only issue preventing that was Apple's failure to provide a free solution. Apple has done so. So time to follow through, CR.
I wonder how long it will take CR to now list the iPhone 4 as 'Recommended'. After all, they said the only issue preventing that was Apple's failure to provide a free solution. Apple has done so. So time to follow through, CR.
Will that make them suddenly credible in your eyes?
I agree, they should update their review TODAY. Not doing so will certainly make them less credible to me.
Apple presented some interesting background and the reception and dropped call numbersare interesting.
I suspect that Apple's workaround (free case) was necessary and sufficient for most users-- but will not satisfy all users. The full refund should address most of those.
There are a smaller number who want and expect a perfect device. They have a choice to make.
I would have liked to see Apple address the prox and 3G-3G handoff issues in more detail-- but these may require that any fix be cycled through FCC approval. So I'd give them some time!
.
Did you notice that the numbers they didn't release were the ones that would actually be useful? They didn't show anything that references how much signal loss was occurring on the other phones they showed or on the iPhone. The resorted to showing bars, which have been clearly shown to be essentially worthless.
Will that make them suddenly credible in your eyes?
it wouldn't change my opinion of their technical abilities, but it would help me to believe in their integrity.
CR..........You made the call now follow through with your recommendation.