I'm convinced: Arafat a Terrorist (UPDATED***)
I was in conflict about the whole situation before. I supported Israel's right to defend itself, though I disagreed with their "eye for an eye" approach.....and I think their occupation is ill-advised. I do, again, support their right to do it, but I think it was not produtive. And, I wasn't sure about Arafat.
After seeing Geraldo's interview with Arafat (or some of it) last night on everyone's favorite show (O'Reilly!!!), I am now more convinced than ever that he personally ordered terror attacks, and may continue to do so. Geraldo flat out asked him, NO.....BEGGED him to renounce terror, and only after much prodding did he, once again, "sort of" renounce terror on "all civilians". He never said he would pursue every avenue to stop terror.
Hopefully there can be a peaceful solution. If Arafat is smart he will stop the attacks while we are still willing to work with him. If the violence continues, the US will no doubt label him a terrorist and refuse to deal with him.
[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]
[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
After seeing Geraldo's interview with Arafat (or some of it) last night on everyone's favorite show (O'Reilly!!!), I am now more convinced than ever that he personally ordered terror attacks, and may continue to do so. Geraldo flat out asked him, NO.....BEGGED him to renounce terror, and only after much prodding did he, once again, "sort of" renounce terror on "all civilians". He never said he would pursue every avenue to stop terror.
Hopefully there can be a peaceful solution. If Arafat is smart he will stop the attacks while we are still willing to work with him. If the violence continues, the US will no doubt label him a terrorist and refuse to deal with him.
[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]
[ 05-07-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
Comments
<strong>Europe managed only 60 years ago to commit the largest act of genocide the world has ever seen, and to hear many european leaders today, their words of hatred towards muslims (and jews again - tho their populations are much smaller) sound very much like they did before WW2. I fear what would happen if the european economies crumbled, allowing another Hitler to take power. This world is very f*cked up. It always amazes me how there can be unthinkably ugly things in this world, and at the same time such beauty.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Please don´t link what happened 60 years ago in Europe to what happens today. It would be like if I pointed out the condition of blacks in US much less than 60 years ago and said "it could happen again".
Hitler (and nazism in general) wasn´t an german phenomen. I have used so many hours to point that out. And it wasn´t an european phenomen either. I really hate to say it but it was a human phenomen not a result of the "nature" of a certain nation or kind of people. Under the right conditions it could happen again anywhere. Up untill 38 Hitler wasn´t unpopular in US.
And I thank you for pointing out that muslims are those who are singled out today here in Europe because that is the real problem with Haider, Le Pen and Kjaersgaard. But please show me any link to any european leader saying anything negative about Jews (remember: Jews are not = Israel, not even Israelis). I have never EVER read anything like that but I have read a lot of commentators claiming that.
I would actually like anyone here discussing european politics to visit Berlin and see how large an impact what happened to jews during WWII have on the city. The jewish museum in itself must be the most powerful monument over WWII anywhere and just next to Brandenburger Tor a huge area of some of the most expensive land in Berlin is transformed to a monument over the killing of jews in Europe just a few hundred feet from the parliarment. Sometimes I actually wish they would do the same for the socialists, communists, people from the resistance, gypsies and many other groups that died as well (800.000 gypsies alone).
"Thats all fine but thats the officially Europe. What about all the neo-nazis and the average population?" I was in Berlin on Hitlers birthday this year. The only demonstrations that day was a huge one by Anti-racism/fascism groups that demonstrated in the area where Neo-nazis are known to live. And every time they show themselves on the street they are totally outnumbered by couter demonstrations.
The funny thing is that its the same anti-racism groups that demonstrates against Israels policy against the palestinians, sometimes even joined by jews. And of those demonstrations I have joined the suicide bombs against civilians are condemmed as well.
I think it's laughable that grad student thinks of Europe when he thinks of future mad men. The mad men are here now and they are in the middle east. As if Bin Laden wasn't proof enough. Backed up by another mad man Omar. Look at all the anti-semitic tripe that comes out of any of the "islamic republics". If they every got any real power the holocaust would be recreated in modern day Israel. But saying such things makes me a "racist" right? Pointing out the stupid bigotry of brown people makes one racist in our world
In my perfect world Arafat would be convicted of <a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95001716"; target="_blank">first degree murder</a> and die like McVeigh.
well - as an example of European politicians words of negativity towards Jews, I recently read about a proposal to ban Arab headdresses and Jewish Kippas in public schools. That seems somewhat negative towards Jews (and perhaps more so towards Muslims). Beyond this - I have lived in Europe, speak German, and have been in Germany as recently as last summer, and will again as soon as this August. What did I see there? well... for one - I found myself being encircled by angry stares on a train platform as I struck up a conversation with a black man from Africa. I would have to say I felt quite hated - and everyone was looking directly at me. Beyond that... I met a German girl in a bar from München, and actually dated her a few times... I remember distinctly racist comments coming from her regarding Jews. I do not speak about things I do not know about. Also, I never said that what occurred in WW2 was a german or European phenomenon only - what I said was that what occurred in Europe was the worst genocide in history, and that some politicians sound similar to how they did then. And my point was that the whole thing is sad... very sad...
as for: "I would actually like anyone here discussing european politics to visit Berlin and see how large an impact what happened to jews during WWII have on the city. The jewish museum in itself must be the most powerful monument over WWII anywhere"
This is a very simplistic statement, and misses the most important point of the monument entirely - which is sad and offensive. The most powerful monument of WW2 anywhere is the lack of Jews in Europe. Had the 6 million Jews not been killed - it is estimated that there would be over 40 million more jews in Europe today. Think of how that would transform Berlin. If you mean by monument a structure - than without question the concentration camps are the most powerful, not a museum in Berlin. There is no museum germans can build to right history... no Jew will ever look at a building build by Germans and think its all ok now. My point of my original post was that it is troubling to me that there are factions in Europe that have the same hatred for muslims that was had for jews not long ago - it sounds all too familiar.
<strong>
well - as an example of European politicians words of negativity towards Jews, I recently read about a proposal to ban Arab headdresses and Jewish Kippas in public schools. That seems somewhat negative towards Jews (and perhaps more so towards Muslims). </strong><hr></blockquote>
I´ll bet you $100 that the reason for such a proposal is that they wanted to ban the muslim headdress and realised that that would violate the european treaty on discrimination and changed it to all kinds of religious headdresses (or marks of religion in general) instead. Thats how it works in many instances here unfortunetly. The government here in Denmark wants to have a law that makes it impossible for children of refugees and immigrant to marry someone outside Denmark and bring her/him here before they are 25 years old (targeted towards people from Turkey and muslim countries). That would violate the treaty so they plan making it universal, so if I was under 25 years old I wouldn´t be able to marry a US citizent and bring her here. But the government has promised that the law will be made so it wouldn´t hurt those of danish parents. They try to worm themselves around the treaty so they get what they want without violating the treaty.
[quote]<strong>Beyond this - I have lived in Europe, speak German, and have been in Germany as recently as last summer, and will again as soon as this August. What did I see there? well... for one - I found myself being encircled by angry stares on a train platform as I struck up a conversation with a black man from Africa. I would have to say I felt quite hated - and everyone was looking directly at me. </strong><hr></blockquote>
That is coherence with my experience, esp. in certain areas of Berlin. And its importent to fight tendencies like that by continuing to treat people alike no matter who they are and make political manifestions. Just one thing: "Hate"?, "encircled"? I would more expect them to look at and label you as a strange/cracy person to talk to an outsider and avoid any contact with you. But of course if the "right" persons were there what you describe could be very true.
[quote]<strong>Beyond that... I met a German girl in a bar from München, and actually dated her a few times... I remember distinctly racist comments coming from her regarding Jews. I do not speak about things I do not know about.</strong><hr></blockquote>
We were talking about leaders and one person doesn´t make the entire population or just a fraction of it. There are persons like her anywhere. The question is if its a common position to take. I have statistics about who danes would want to live next door to and have their children marry. Muslims, homosexuals, people that listens to loud music smokers etc. are more unwanted here than jews. And I don´t thonk its any different in Germany
[quote]<strong>Also, I never said that what occurred in WW2 was a german or European phenomenon only - what I said was that what occurred in Europe was the worst genocide in history, and that some politicians sound similar to how they did then.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I disagrees with the last point. I am worried about the development as well but its out of proportions to compare it to the 30´s and 40´s. A few comments very far inbetween are horrible but the overall development is much more complex.
[quote]<strong>If you mean by monument a structure</strong><hr></blockquote>
I did
[quote]<strong>than without question the concentration camps are the most powerful, not a museum in Berlin. There is no museum germans can build to right history... no Jew will ever look at a building build by Germans and think its all ok now.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I still think the jewish museum is much more powerfull than the camps. You don´t get the contrast in them as you do in the museum. I really didn´t think I would like the museum for the same reasons as you state but try visit it when you go there next time.
And I didn´t want to say that building a museum would make everything all right. My point is what it tells about a people building such a monument on their own wrongdoings.
[quote]<strong>My point of my original post was that it is troubling to me that there are factions in Europe that have the same hatred for muslims that was had for jews not long ago - it sounds all too familiar.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I share your anger towards the development for the last 2-3 years. And I hate to live in one of the 2-3 countries where the ultra right winged has something to say in the parliarment. And I try to do something against it, both in my everyday life and politically.
[ 05-04-2002: Message edited by: Anders ]</p>
<strong>
I´ll bet you $100 that the reason for such a proposal is that they wanted to ban the muslim headdress and realized that that would violate the european treaty on discrimination and changed it to all kinds of religious headdresses (or marks of religion in general) instead.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Did you not hear about the Berlin authorities recommending Jews not to walk around wearing 'Jewish' signs ? stuff like star of david or kippa etc... its a well known thing even appeared in the most recent Economist and it's recent .. in response to attacks on Jews as a direct result of the rise of the right and on the other side of the spectrum from muslim people. I find it sickening as a Jew and the son of a man who was born in that city before the war.
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
I have statistics about who danes would want to live next door to and have their children marry. Muslims, homosexuals, people that listens to loud music smokers etc. are more unwanted here than jews. And I don´t think its any different in Germany
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have to disagree there Anders, Danes and Germans are very different especially in their perception of Jews and foreigners, Danes are far more liberal and open in general ... just reminding you of how amazingly sane were the Danes during the war re Jews ( you yourself discussed this earlier) compare this with German's actions and attitudes.. and besides does it matter if its aimed against Jews, Arabs, Blacks, Turks etc... its still sick and getting more and more common. you would expect Europeans to have learnt a thing or two after their bloody and mad history.... evidently they are far too busy preaching to others like the US and Israel on how to do things instead of dealing with their own problems. this is especially relevant in places like France, Belguim, Germany, Eastern Europe and some parts of the UK.
[quote]Originally posted by Anders:
<strong>
I disagrees with the last point. I am worried about the development as well but its out of proportions to compare it to the 30´s and 40´s. A few comments very far in between are horrible but the overall development is much more complex.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes you are right but the socio-economic situation in Europe is quite good these days what if ( as was the case in the 30s) we go through an economic melt down ?? very scary me thinks !
[quote]Originally posted by grad student:
<strong>
This is a very simplistic statement, and misses the most important point of the monument entirely - which is sad and offensive. The most powerful monument of WW2 anywhere is the lack of Jews in Europe.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree completely .... polish Jewry was little over 3 million before the war do you know how many jews live in Poland today ? 7000
SICK !
And people ask me why did Israel ever need to be created ... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>You just now figured out that Arafat is a terrorist? The evidence has been there the whole time. Where have you been all this time? Head in the sand head up your ass or to anit-Israel to see the truth. The Israelis got all those documents just last month with that terrorist signing over money for terrorist attacks but it took Geraldo to ask some questions for you to figure it out? What?!
I think it's laughable that grad student thinks of Europe when he thinks of future mad men. The mad men are here now and they are in the middle east. As if Bin Laden wasn't proof enough. Backed up by another mad man Omar. Look at all the anti-semitic tripe that comes out of any of the "islamic republics". If they every got any real power the holocaust would be recreated in modern day Israel. But saying such things makes me a "racist" right? Pointing out the stupid bigotry of brown people makes one racist in our world
In my perfect world Arafat would be convicted of <a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=95001716"; target="_blank">first degree murder</a> and die like McVeigh.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks for attack, asshole. I am on YOUR side, in case you haven't figured that out. What I am saying is that the US isn't going to deal with him much longer, and we have given him every chance to get his shit together. I'm an idiot because I thought it through and didn't just jump to a conclusion? OK.
<strong>
Thanks for attack, asshole. I am on YOUR side, in case you haven't figured that out. What I am saying is that the US isn't going to deal with him much longer, and we have given him every chance to get his shit together. I'm an idiot because I thought it through and didn't just jump to a conclusion? OK.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you were too stupid to figure out that Terroristfat was a jew killing American murdering terrorist then you're the asshole.
I'm sure if Yasser Ilovetokilljews Arafat had just said he was sorry and "renounce all violence", that is lied to your face, you'd think he wasn't. What he does or does not say to Geraldo is meaningless but you're too dumb to know that.
[ 05-05-2002: Message edited by: scott_h_phd ]</p>
<strong>scott_h_phd, why the slanderous tone?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't know if I'd call my tone "slanderous" but I'll go with it,
People who finally discover that Arafat is a terrorist by watching a Geraldo interview are worthy of scorn. But .. you know ... if Geraldo can make the world wake up then I guess that?s a good thing.
<strong>
I don't know if I'd call my tone "slanderous" but I'll go with it,
People who finally discover that Arafat is a terrorist by watching a Geraldo interview are worthy of scorn. But .. you know ... if Geraldo can make the world wake up then I guess that?s a good thing.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are such an ass. The man is there, like it or not....and we are currently dealing with him. What I am saying is that there is now no question he is a terrorist. And I'm sorry you disagree, but I don't think it was that clear before. There was some evidence, but there was also some evidence he was trying to stop it, or, what APPEARED to be evidence of that.
Now, I think there can be no question. And the Geraldo interview was damning. I hate to say it, but it was. We didn't read a statement, we didn't hear it third-hand. I saw it, right from this lips.....and I am saying that after seeing that, there is no question in my mind.
Calling me stupid because something like this convinced me is ridiculous. It just put me over the top, that's all. I was just about there anyway. Some people take longer to come to conlcusion than others....why does it make me stuipd?
Gee, I'm sorry I couldn't have the same superb information and decision making ability you obviously have. As much as I disagree with people around here, I would never call them stupid because they arrived at the SAME CONCLUSION I did, but by different means. That is laughable.
[ 05-05-2002: Message edited by: SDW2001 ]</p>
The world needs to reject Arafat as a leader accept him only as a terrorist.
[ 05-05-2002: Message edited by: scott_h_phd ]</p>
<strong>there is so much trouble in the world - it is really sad. Its 2002, and people are just as tribal and barbaric as we have ever been. Europe managed only 60 years ago to commit the largest act of genocide the world has ever seen, and to hear many european leaders today, their words of hatred towards muslims (and jews again - tho their populations are much smaller) sound very much like they did before WW2. I fear what would happen if the european economies crumbled, allowing another Hitler to take power. This world is very f*cked up. It always amazes me how there can be unthinkably ugly things in this world, and at the same time such beauty.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I would advise you to pull back your head until you hear a very loud popping noise. That will mean it is out of your backside and you may get a clearer view of what is going on in Europe.
In a lot of countries in Europe people are fed up. Fed up with having to take care of everybody that can´t seem to take care of themselves. We have to take in Kosovars because the people in the Balkan can´t stop killing each other. We have to take in Africans for the same reason. On top of that the current governments have been leniant to the extreme with these asylum seekers up to the point where they are priviliged over the people that work to pay for these priviliges.
What does the U.S, our main ally do though? It says we are anti semitist because we prefer Israel to stop killing muslims and see that both sides are wrong rather than just blaming the Arabs. On top of that it goes and makes some more war all over the place so we can end up with these refugees as well. I never understood the thing with refugees. Why do they run? Why don´t they fight for their freedom in their own country? It´s what people in France did in 1789. It´s what the East Germans did two centuries later and it´s what the Irish and Basques are still doing, however in a more civilized way these days. That said, there are exceptions like ETA and the Real IRA.
There is no anti semitism in Europe. Nor is there widespread hate for refugees that are already in Europe. It´s the continues influx of refugees and the fact that we have a more ballanced view towards the Israeli - Palestinian conflict that seems to be hard to understand for your American government.
BBWWHAHAHAHA. Oh....stop!!!!......YOU'RE KILLING ME!!!!!!
Oh, and Scott_H: I'll come to any conclusion I want WHENEVER I want. Right now I have come to the conclusion that you are a prick. See how easy it is?
Pleasde, you slay me. That's like an American saying there is NO racism in America. Or a catholic saying there are no pedophiles in the clergy. How can you have the audacity to speak for millions of people. LePen DID get 18% of the vote. That is not small potatoes.
Nor is there widespread hate for refugees that are already in Europe.
Again, see above. 18% think there is a definate problem in France with immigrants.
It´s the continues influx of refugees and the fact that we have a more ballanced view towards the Israeli - Palestinian conflict that seems to be hard to understand for your American government.
Balanced view=pro-palestinian? No one has a balanced view. America (the government) has interests in that region that it wants to protect, and yes, peace is an interest that would benefit the people of the US with low gas prices and overall safety against more terrorst attacks. The US government has its number one job to protect the people of THIS nation. And secondly of its allies. How does it work were you come from?
And let me mention, the US has the most diverse groups of people in the whole world living together with minimal race related crimes. Where I live (in the north east) we have a huge chinese, black, indian, arabic, jewish, european, japanese population. Maybe Europe should take some notes on American domestic policy instead of ridiculing our 'culture'. Despite all the things wrong with America, there are even more things right with it.
<strong>Oh, and Scott_H: I'll come to any conclusion I want WHENEVER I want. Right now I have come to the conclusion that you are a prick. See how easy it is?</strong><hr></blockquote>You just NOW came to the conclusion that Scott_H is a prick? Wow, you're an idiot.
<strong>You just NOW came to the conclusion that Scott_H is a prick? Wow, you're an idiot.
Point taken. He is over the top.
<strong>
BBWWHAHAHAHA. Oh....stop!!!!......YOU'RE KILLING ME!!!!!!
Oh, and Scott_H: I'll come to any conclusion I want WHENEVER I want. Right now I have come to the conclusion that you are a prick. See how easy it is?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Let me rephrase that.."There is no widespread mass anti semitism in Europe"
As for France, yes LePen did get 18% of the votes. He also got thos votes in France. France is a country in Europe. Not all of Europe. So before you start generalizing you should realise that one country in Europe is not the other. That´s like saying that Sweden have a problem with ETA and Olof Palme was as much killed in Greece as he was in Sweden.
No race related crime in America you say? As for white killing black and jewish I don´t think I need to point out to you were there is a problem there right? Do I need to point out one of those burning crosses to you for proof? On top of that, you have your race related problems in your well created ghettos. Throug the years it has been organised that the minorities kill each other. Saves the white establishment the bother of having to do it themselves.
For such a multi cultural melting pot you claim the US is the power is not very equally shared don´t you think?
Maybe you and your government should stop thinking about how everybody else should take note and be like you. Maybe you should be less like you.
<strong>[i]Balanced view=pro-palestinian? No one has a balanced view. America (the government) has interests in that region that it wants to protect, and yes, peace is an interest that would benefit the people of the US with low gas prices and overall safety against more terrorst attacks. The US government has its number one job to protect the people of THIS nation. And secondly of its allies. How does it work were you come from?
And let me mention, the US has the most diverse groups of people in the whole world living together with minimal race related crimes. Where I live (in the north east) we have a huge chinese, black, indian, arabic, jewish, european, japanese population. Maybe Europe should take some notes on American domestic policy instead of ridiculing our 'culture'. Despite all the things wrong with America, there are even more things right with it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good stuff !! Well said ...
Who was it that fought for Europe's peace and order in Kosovo ? ... the US!
Who is it that always bails Europe out of its own mess ? the US !
Who liberated all those millions of pussies who yielded to the Nazies in WW2 ? the US !
Who won the cold war ?
sure its easy to slate Americans for being this and that... but the point is that despite all their short comings and mistakes they are still the most sane, just and reasonable nation on the planet, the US has been a massive force for good in the world in the past 50 years ( far more so then Europe) and we should all try lo learn a thing or two from them !
I am not generalizing. I wasn't obfuscating anything, I clearly stated that in France 18% voted for LePen because of this issue, as an example in increasingly popular European attitudes.
No race related crime in America you say?
You obviosly have a problem in English comprehension. I said minimal race related crimes.
As for white killing black and jewish I don´t think I need to point out to you were there is a problem there right?
Yes you do need to point this out. Show me statistics where whites are performing hate crimes like the ones you think we are.
Do I need to point out one of those burning crosses to you for proof?
Yes point it out. I'll conceed this happened in the south occasionally OVER 100 YEARS AGO! Should I go dig up the past attrocities of Europe? I only have to go back half a century or so.
On top of that, you have your race related problems in your well created ghettos. Throug the years it has been organised that the minorities kill each other. Saves the white establishment the bother of having to do it themselves.
Oh man you love these conspiracy theories, don't you? And how about that one where the FBI is hiding aliens from public knowledge? I mean they even made a teevee show about it!
For such a multi cultural melting pot you claim the US is the power is not very equally shared don´t you think?
What the hell are you talking about now. That the US government is keeping the minorities down in some sort of plot to keep power from their grasp? Do you read what you write before posting?
Maybe you and your government should stop thinking about how everybody else should take note and be like you. Maybe you should be less like you.
Oooh good one! Maybe we should be more like upstanding states such as China or Cuba or Iraq!
After WW2, Japan saw the error of their ways. They took note. Now they are an economic superpower instead of some 3rd rate nation of malcreants.