I shouldn't have to overcome challenges just to get into a good school. Think about this: My dad goes to a regular college. Then he starts his own business, spends countless hours there so he can get a decnt income. He builds this business up for about 20 years. He has me and with money he has saved from living simply, sends me to a private school so I can get a good education and go to a nice college. He worked his ass off for 20 years running his own business with just a couple people so I wouldn't have to (it's since become REALLY successful but that's another story). This was so I could go to a nice college and wouldn't have any problems and would have a decent life. Then this kid who just happens to be from a different ethnic origin comes along and ruins my, and my dad's dreams. And this kid isn't even nessicarily as good of a student. My dad spends his whole adult life working his ass off so I could have the best education but because I'm white I can't get that. Is that what you call fair???
Affirmative action should exist, but it shold also be racially blind. What happens when when a rich white boy and a rich black boy have identical transcripts and other merits? Affirmative action is not racially blind.
Affirmative action programs are better suited at the primary education level.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
What he said (though would you call it affirmative action to create equal conditions for all at the primary school level?)
If i have understand what you where saying : there is quota in some universities.
Quota have been always the subject of a controversial debate. For example in politic, there was the question of a quota for women : some where assuming that it was against the human rights to select the candidates by their sex rather than their qualities the others where arguing it was the only solution to make the things progress.
Personnaly i think that quota are a good things in a non homogenous situation, when the acess to university or others situations is very difficult for minorities. But when the things will improve and get better (i mean that every ethnie or minorities have the same chances), quota will be a bad things.
Social cohesion is interleaved with the abiltiy for everypoeple to have the access of all level of social status. Remove this and it will lead to social trouble or revolution. I think that one great quality of US is that ability (even if not perfect).
<strong>I shouldn't have to overcome challenges just to get into a good school. Think about this: My dad goes to a regular college. Then he starts his own business, spends countless hours there so he can get a decnt income. He builds this business up for about 20 years. He has me and with money he has saved from living simply, sends me to a private school so I can get a good education and go to a nice college. He worked his ass off for 20 years running his own business with just a couple people so I wouldn't have to (it's since become REALLY successful but that's another story). This was so I could go to a nice college and wouldn't have any problems and would have a decent life. Then this kid who just happens to be from a different ethnic origin comes along and ruins my, and my dad's dreams. And this kid isn't even nessicarily as good of a student. My dad spends his whole adult life working his ass off so I could have the best education but because I'm white I can't get that. Is that what you call fair???</strong><hr></blockquote>
No but it is it fair that other kids doesn´t have the same opportunity to have the same "decent" life as yours? Is it fair that other kids have to help to the family economy and by that getting a worse primary education?
No but it is it fair that other kids doesn´t have the same opportunity to have the same "decent" life as yours? Is it fair that other kids have to help to the family economy and by that getting a worse primary education?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Your comments do not directly oppose G4Dude's? In his case, race is the deciding factor. In your case, wealth and living conditions are the deciding factors.
And your case is precisely why affirmative action does not work as well the later it is take advantage of. By high school, it's basically too late. By college it's definitely too late, excluding the exceptional, who probably would have been accepted by merit alone anyway.
Your comments do not directly oppose G4Dude's? In his case, race is the deciding factor. In your case, wealth and living conditions are the deciding factors.
And your case is precisely why affirmative action does not work as well the later it is take advantage of. By high school, it's basically too late. By college it's definitely too late, excluding the exceptional, who probably would have been accepted by merit alone anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree completly with you. All I tried to say was that there still is the original problem with him having better conditions to have a much better schooling than a lot of other kids and something should be done about it. But AA at college and university level isn´t the answer.
I agree completly with you. All I tried to say was that there still is the original problem with him having better conditions to have a much better schooling than a lot of other kids and something should be done about it. But AA at college and university level isn´t the answer.</strong><hr></blockquote>
My point is that my family got to where it is from HARD WORK not a free ride or handouts. If less opportunity is the reward people get for working hard to move up in society than what's the point? I think college admissions offices should not look at race or economic background. I think they should not be allowed to even be put on an application. It should all be based completely on academic performance.
My point is that my family got to where it is from HARD WORK not a free ride or handouts. If this is the reward people get for working hard to move up in society than what's the point?</strong><hr></blockquote>
My point is that your father has done a lot to give you a good start in your life. But you haven´t done anything to get as self-sacrificing father as you have
All I want to do is to allow all other kids to have the same opportunities as you have had so their academic performance is minimally influenced by their social bagground.
[quote]<strong> I think college admissions offices should not look at race or economic background. I think they should not be allowed to even be put on an application. It should all be based completely on academic performance.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agree. And education should be free for everyone so that doesn´t influence your chances of getting the best education compared to your abilities.
I agree you are a racist that believes in white supremacy. Most people are not like you however in that they are simply selfish.
College in the US is the most influencial way to effect a person's socio-economic status, breaking barriers for social and economic equality. Under priviledged minorities such as African Americans, Latin Americans and Native Indians are under known as under priviledged for a reason. Many consider these people as a cheap labor force to exploit and that is simply unacceptable. Most who are brave enough to attend college are first in their family to do so. Most come from very modest economic backgrounds.
Simply put, not enough under represented minorities are applying to college so colleges will accept whoever meets their baseline qualifications. I believe Stanford has a baseline of about 1200 on the SAT.
BTW, I can see there is ambivalence in colleges when it comes to AA. They accept wealthy and legacy children and yet "firmly" support AA?
OK, I don't know much about AA... But I have just complete the college application process...
of all the white people (except one person) that I know from my grade that applied to Ivy League schools DID NOT GET ACCEPTED TO ANY OF THEM.... Now these kids are validctorians, 1500+ on the SATs, Extracurriculars up the wazoo--but most of them are upper middle class white males from the northeast--the hardest demographic to be accepted from...
Of all the "minority" friends I have that applied to Ivy League schools 90% of them got in and most of those people got into almost every ivy they applied to... These kids were basically no different from my white friends other then the fact that they were part of a minority group...
Another thing about this situation that is not right is the fact that 90% of these "minority" friends LOOK WHITER THEN I DO... I am 100% Italian (from southern Italy, 4th generation tho...), and I am olive skinned... Yet Italians are considered "white" by the traditional definition of the word... Half of the hispanic friends I have look Irish and English because one parent was white... Wasnt the whole reason for Racism BASED on the color of people's skins?.... I dono I just feel that this whole system (college application process) is wrong and needs to be changed. I do not judge people by the color of their skin or their background...but colleges do?
I am very happy with BC and I look forward to going there, but I can't help but wonder where I would have gotten in if I was a "minority".... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>what are these SAT tests? Are they multiple choice test? If so are they online so I could try them out</strong><hr></blockquote>
hehehe the SAT and the <a href="http://www.collegeboard.org"; target="_blank">college board</a> are another problem with the edu system in america.... they are a bigger monopoly then microsoft, but the gov doesnt care... I'm going to start a new thread on this...
Edit: BTW SAT= Standard Aptitude Test but people (read: colleges) are starting to change the meaning to something else (I forget what it is...) because people are complaning that it doesnt measure people's aptitude, just how well they can do on a test...
[quote]I'd say you should go, because this would separate you from the rest of the people. Those types of colleges like the summer enrichment programs. They expect you not to have a life. <hr></blockquote>
Oh, I'm definitely going. I've heard that
1.) they do consider it for the college application process
2.) they don't.
don't really care either way. I've wanted to go there and this will likely be my only chance as I don't see myself making it for real next year.
[quote]
As for Stanford, I know nothing about it.... A friend of mine got in there and is deciding between there and harvard... bastard...
Heh, im only kidding, I'm happy with BC... <hr></blockquote>
wow. I would choose Stanford. I guess you Loyola kids get into some pretty good schools huh.
Have fun at BC. Boston is beautiful.
[quote]I don't know about the summer program, but as an undergraduate, you practically must own a bike.
Stanford is also very Mac friendly. They extend insitution educational prices to students, for example.<hr></blockquote>
Thanks Eugene. The info packet I got reccomended renting a bike when you get there. So I guess I'll have to do that. Apple HQ is 14.5 miles away I believe so I guess I could Bike there
Stanford seems extremely mac friendly. I signed up for the OS X beta test of their software and a number I saw of campus computers was 780+ to 60+ Mac vs PC. Pretty cool.
Do you know what the education discounts are for an iPod at Stanford?
[quote]What is the summer program? <hr></blockquote>
It's a program for high school juniors to spend 10 weeks at Stanford and take stanford undergraduate courses. you get mixed in with the undergraduates for courses and get to pick from all their choices.
it's pretty cool. many private colleges run summer programs of some sort. I was also looking at the Boston U and University of Pennslvania programs but got the Stanford acceptance before I applied to those
Thanks everyone for your help. Even if you did get a little off the topic I hoped would be discussed
[quote] wow. I would choose Stanford. I guess you Loyola kids get into some pretty good schools huh.
Have fun at BC. Boston is beautiful. <hr></blockquote>
Well, if you are not white <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> .... She happens to be Hispanic... but all she did in HS was work so she deserves it... Not that I know anyone who doesn't, but that doesn't mean white people should be overlooked... It really was bad this year at our school. 0 white kids got into ivys--not even the valedictorian (but he got full boat @ G-town, so he is happy)... whatever, I'm happy thats all that matters right? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
As for the iPod discount I imagine it wouldnt be anymore then the EDU discount ($-30)... I think you are better off getting it at MacZone or some other mail-order place... they usually throw in a case or accesory pack or something...
Hints for the college application process:
If you know stanford is your first choice LIVE at the admissions office when you are there... get to know everyone there... ask questions, be intrested... show them you want to be there... When you get home shoot e-mails back and forth with people you met @ the program... the more people that know you the better...
Apply early (this is a BIG advantage).
Find out what they are lacking in the current student body (this can be hard - you would probably have to ask other undergrads...) find out what the school wants and do your best to give it to them... you are selling yourself to them--the process sucks, but if you have a "hook" that they want you could have a 1000 SAT and 80 avg. and they would take you... (if they felt you could do the minimum amount of work of course...) but I'm 100% positive that your marks are MUCH better then that... you have a better chance then you think, and baseball will only help you... stanford is big on sports right?
Start talking with your college guidance counselor NOW about Stanford... but most of all-relax, have fun and have faith that wherever you end up will be the right place for you... get ready for a long year!
well, just got back from BB King @ BB King's Bar and Grill. Amazing show.
And now I am about to depart. next time I post I'll hopefully be in California. I'm a little scared of flying (alright very scared) so all you religious types out there please say a little prayer
Now I just have to decide whether to take a nap before my 6am flight or just stay up till 4;00 am when I have to leave for JFK.
dont worry about the plane ride... it can be a lot of fun if you just relax... did you get Jet Blue?
how was the DTV? </strong><hr></blockquote>
well I'm here. Flew out on JetBlue. About 5 hours and 30 minutes. Very nice planes. A little tight on legroom but alright. directv on the plane is so cool. got to watch the world cup but for a saturday morning all you get is paid programming crap. coolest thing though is they have a real time update channel that shows your location, speed, altitude, and path.
Stanford University is beautiful. I drove by Apple yesterday. no one was there. parking lot completely empty, all the lights were off. hopefully i'll hit the company store soon.
Comments
<strong>
Affirmative action should exist, but it shold also be racially blind. What happens when when a rich white boy and a rich black boy have identical transcripts and other merits? Affirmative action is not racially blind.
Affirmative action programs are better suited at the primary education level.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
What he said (though would you call it affirmative action to create equal conditions for all at the primary school level?)
Quota have been always the subject of a controversial debate. For example in politic, there was the question of a quota for women : some where assuming that it was against the human rights to select the candidates by their sex rather than their qualities the others where arguing it was the only solution to make the things progress.
Personnaly i think that quota are a good things in a non homogenous situation, when the acess to university or others situations is very difficult for minorities. But when the things will improve and get better (i mean that every ethnie or minorities have the same chances), quota will be a bad things.
Social cohesion is interleaved with the abiltiy for everypoeple to have the access of all level of social status. Remove this and it will lead to social trouble or revolution. I think that one great quality of US is that ability (even if not perfect).
<strong>I shouldn't have to overcome challenges just to get into a good school. Think about this: My dad goes to a regular college. Then he starts his own business, spends countless hours there so he can get a decnt income. He builds this business up for about 20 years. He has me and with money he has saved from living simply, sends me to a private school so I can get a good education and go to a nice college. He worked his ass off for 20 years running his own business with just a couple people so I wouldn't have to (it's since become REALLY successful but that's another story). This was so I could go to a nice college and wouldn't have any problems and would have a decent life. Then this kid who just happens to be from a different ethnic origin comes along and ruins my, and my dad's dreams. And this kid isn't even nessicarily as good of a student. My dad spends his whole adult life working his ass off so I could have the best education but because I'm white I can't get that. Is that what you call fair???</strong><hr></blockquote>
No but it is it fair that other kids doesn´t have the same opportunity to have the same "decent" life as yours? Is it fair that other kids have to help to the family economy and by that getting a worse primary education?
From that thread:
[quote]When I watch that movie, only one comment comes to my mind.
Bored suburban white kids.
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> <hr></blockquote>
[ 05-11-2002: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
<strong>
No but it is it fair that other kids doesn´t have the same opportunity to have the same "decent" life as yours? Is it fair that other kids have to help to the family economy and by that getting a worse primary education?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Your comments do not directly oppose G4Dude's? In his case, race is the deciding factor. In your case, wealth and living conditions are the deciding factors.
And your case is precisely why affirmative action does not work as well the later it is take advantage of. By high school, it's basically too late. By college it's definitely too late, excluding the exceptional, who probably would have been accepted by merit alone anyway.
<strong>
Your comments do not directly oppose G4Dude's? In his case, race is the deciding factor. In your case, wealth and living conditions are the deciding factors.
And your case is precisely why affirmative action does not work as well the later it is take advantage of. By high school, it's basically too late. By college it's definitely too late, excluding the exceptional, who probably would have been accepted by merit alone anyway.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree completly with you. All I tried to say was that there still is the original problem with him having better conditions to have a much better schooling than a lot of other kids and something should be done about it. But AA at college and university level isn´t the answer.
<strong>
I agree completly with you. All I tried to say was that there still is the original problem with him having better conditions to have a much better schooling than a lot of other kids and something should be done about it. But AA at college and university level isn´t the answer.</strong><hr></blockquote>
My point is that my family got to where it is from HARD WORK not a free ride or handouts. If less opportunity is the reward people get for working hard to move up in society than what's the point? I think college admissions offices should not look at race or economic background. I think they should not be allowed to even be put on an application. It should all be based completely on academic performance.
[ 05-11-2002: Message edited by: G4Dude ]</p>
<strong>
My point is that my family got to where it is from HARD WORK not a free ride or handouts. If this is the reward people get for working hard to move up in society than what's the point?</strong><hr></blockquote>
My point is that your father has done a lot to give you a good start in your life. But you haven´t done anything to get as self-sacrificing father as you have
All I want to do is to allow all other kids to have the same opportunities as you have had so their academic performance is minimally influenced by their social bagground.
[quote]<strong> I think college admissions offices should not look at race or economic background. I think they should not be allowed to even be put on an application. It should all be based completely on academic performance.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agree. And education should be free for everyone so that doesn´t influence your chances of getting the best education compared to your abilities.
<strong>
I agree you are a racist that believes in white supremacy. Most people are not like you however in that they are simply selfish.
College in the US is the most influencial way to effect a person's socio-economic status, breaking barriers for social and economic equality. Under priviledged minorities such as African Americans, Latin Americans and Native Indians are under known as under priviledged for a reason. Many consider these people as a cheap labor force to exploit and that is simply unacceptable. Most who are brave enough to attend college are first in their family to do so. Most come from very modest economic backgrounds.
Simply put, not enough under represented minorities are applying to college so colleges will accept whoever meets their baseline qualifications. I believe Stanford has a baseline of about 1200 on the SAT.
BTW, I can see there is ambivalence in colleges when it comes to AA. They accept wealthy and legacy children and yet "firmly" support AA?
[ 05-11-2002: Message edited by: Nostradamus ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
QED
of all the white people (except one person) that I know from my grade that applied to Ivy League schools DID NOT GET ACCEPTED TO ANY OF THEM.... Now these kids are validctorians, 1500+ on the SATs, Extracurriculars up the wazoo--but most of them are upper middle class white males from the northeast--the hardest demographic to be accepted from...
Of all the "minority" friends I have that applied to Ivy League schools 90% of them got in and most of those people got into almost every ivy they applied to... These kids were basically no different from my white friends other then the fact that they were part of a minority group...
Another thing about this situation that is not right is the fact that 90% of these "minority" friends LOOK WHITER THEN I DO... I am 100% Italian (from southern Italy, 4th generation tho...), and I am olive skinned... Yet Italians are considered "white" by the traditional definition of the word... Half of the hispanic friends I have look Irish and English because one parent was white... Wasnt the whole reason for Racism BASED on the color of people's skins?.... I dono I just feel that this whole system (college application process) is wrong and needs to be changed. I do not judge people by the color of their skin or their background...but colleges do?
I am very happy with BC and I look forward to going there, but I can't help but wonder where I would have gotten in if I was a "minority".... <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
<strong>what are these SAT tests? Are they multiple choice test? If so are they online so I could try them out</strong><hr></blockquote>
hehehe the SAT and the <a href="http://www.collegeboard.org"; target="_blank">college board</a> are another problem with the edu system in america....
Edit: BTW SAT= Standard Aptitude Test but people (read: colleges) are starting to change the meaning to something else (I forget what it is...) because people are complaning that it doesnt measure people's aptitude, just how well they can do on a test...
[ 05-11-2002: Message edited by: Paul ]</p>
<strong>Congratulations!
thank you
[quote]I'd say you should go, because this would separate you from the rest of the people. Those types of colleges like the summer enrichment programs. They expect you not to have a life. <hr></blockquote>
Oh, I'm definitely going. I've heard that
1.) they do consider it for the college application process
2.) they don't.
don't really care either way. I've wanted to go there and this will likely be my only chance as I don't see myself making it for real next year.
[quote]
As for Stanford, I know nothing about it.... A friend of mine got in there and is deciding between there and harvard... bastard...
Heh, im only kidding, I'm happy with BC... <hr></blockquote>
wow. I would choose Stanford. I guess you Loyola kids get into some pretty good schools huh.
Have fun at BC. Boston is beautiful.
[quote]I don't know about the summer program, but as an undergraduate, you practically must own a bike.
Stanford is also very Mac friendly. They extend insitution educational prices to students, for example.<hr></blockquote>
Thanks Eugene. The info packet I got reccomended renting a bike when you get there. So I guess I'll have to do that. Apple HQ is 14.5 miles away I believe so I guess I could Bike there
Stanford seems extremely mac friendly. I signed up for the OS X beta test of their software and a number I saw of campus computers was 780+ to 60+ Mac vs PC. Pretty cool.
Do you know what the education discounts are for an iPod at Stanford?
[quote]What is the summer program? <hr></blockquote>
It's a program for high school juniors to spend 10 weeks at Stanford and take stanford undergraduate courses. you get mixed in with the undergraduates for courses and get to pick from all their choices.
it's pretty cool. many private colleges run summer programs of some sort. I was also looking at the Boston U and University of Pennslvania programs but got the Stanford acceptance before I applied to those
Thanks everyone for your help. Even if you did get a little off the topic I hoped would be discussed
Have fun at BC. Boston is beautiful. <hr></blockquote>
Well, if you are not white <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> .... She happens to be Hispanic... but all she did in HS was work so she deserves it... Not that I know anyone who doesn't, but that doesn't mean white people should be overlooked... It really was bad this year at our school. 0 white kids got into ivys--not even the valedictorian (but he got full boat @ G-town, so he is happy)... whatever, I'm happy thats all that matters right? <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
As for the iPod discount I imagine it wouldnt be anymore then the EDU discount ($-30)... I think you are better off getting it at MacZone or some other mail-order place... they usually throw in a case or accesory pack or something...
Hints for the college application process:
If you know stanford is your first choice LIVE at the admissions office when you are there... get to know everyone there... ask questions, be intrested... show them you want to be there... When you get home shoot e-mails back and forth with people you met @ the program... the more people that know you the better...
Apply early (this is a BIG advantage).
Find out what they are lacking in the current student body (this can be hard - you would probably have to ask other undergrads...) find out what the school wants and do your best to give it to them... you are selling yourself to them--the process sucks, but if you have a "hook" that they want you could have a 1000 SAT and 80 avg. and they would take you... (if they felt you could do the minimum amount of work of course...) but I'm 100% positive that your marks are MUCH better then that... you have a better chance then you think, and baseball will only help you... stanford is big on sports right?
Start talking with your college guidance counselor NOW about Stanford... but most of all-relax, have fun and have faith that wherever you end up will be the right place for you... get ready for a long year!
-Paul
And now I am about to depart. next time I post I'll hopefully be in California. I'm a little scared of flying (alright very scared) so all you religious types out there please say a little prayer
Now I just have to decide whether to take a nap before my 6am flight or just stay up till 4;00 am when I have to leave for JFK.
I'd love to visit Stanford and see some of the music tech research that is conducted there.
If I can remember rigthly, this is the place where Yamaha licensed FM technology from. (Dr John Chowning invented it I think.) Can you say DX7?
OK, OK - it was an extremely popular synthesizer from the 80s... I'm a nut for this type of stuff
dont worry about the plane ride... it can be a lot of fun if you just relax... did you get Jet Blue?
how was the DTV?
<strong>Have fun!
dont worry about the plane ride... it can be a lot of fun if you just relax... did you get Jet Blue?
how was the DTV?
well I'm here. Flew out on JetBlue. About 5 hours and 30 minutes. Very nice planes. A little tight on legroom but alright. directv on the plane is so cool. got to watch the world cup but for a saturday morning all you get is paid programming crap. coolest thing though is they have a real time update channel that shows your location, speed, altitude, and path.
Stanford University is beautiful. I drove by Apple yesterday. no one was there. parking lot completely empty, all the lights were off. hopefully i'll hit the company store soon.
tomorrow classes start. that should be fun