Ah yes, I see the "Ignorant Americans" meme has been trotted out once again by all the usual suspects. Let's keep in mind that, at minimum, only half the population might be considered somewhat ignorant, mkay??
It is fascinating to read the ignorant rants being posted here. Americans, of which I am one, are by and large truly ignorant about what goes on in the rest of the world (which I am not), and even ignorant about what is going on in the US. I can remember my summer job when I was in college where I was working on a Ford assembly line and it was mandatory overtime - we worked 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. I had two days off the entire summer! And that was in a union shop! But now I guess everyone thinks that would be slave labor. (The reality is thousands of people would be lined up to apply for a job like that in the US today.) These Chinese factories referred to in these articles are far from being sweatshops. These are modern factories. Housing and meals are provided, athletic facilities, etc etc. The reality is that the suicide rate is actually LOWER than in the US, by far. And the conditions are better than my summer jobs working at the auto plant and two summers working the ovens at the steel mills in Cleveland.
And then we have the tool that talks about entertainment being government propaganda and all his other dribble. No, they are lined up at 5 a.m. to get tickets to the constantly sold out showings of Avatar at the local iMax theater. My wife, our newborn baby and I are currently living in China and I have been coming here for the last 11 years (my wife is Chinese) and I can tell you that you are all clueless as to what it's really like here. China has modernized like no other country in history. Factories are making conditions better all the time as expectations and worker demands are higher, and wages are increasing as are living conditions. So please, it would be better to keep your fingers off the keyboard when you truly don't know what you are talking about.
But that is overly cynical and simplistic, and misses the point about all the great things that are happening as well.
What you are pointing to would be like judging the US, for example, by the Gulf oil spill ('environmental issues'), Blagojevich et. al ('corruption'), or New Orleans/Katrina ('displacement').
america's 300 mill plus live under a safer sky than the billion chinese
Young, somewhat educated, single children from rural communities wondering why the hell they are mindlessly doing repetitive manufacturing for 15 hour days, seven days a week not for a single summer but for the foreseeable future.
You can do anything for a short period. When you're 22 and can't figure out a path to something better? These kids expected a better future than this...to someday figure out how to become lao ban and not just dai mao.
So, what's your solution? What should their employers do? Give them time to self-actualize? Write operas? Paint?
Variants of this are prevalent in every society. In China, given the sheer scale and speed of things - as far as I know, there isn't the single private employer in the West that employs 800,000 people, not even close; and I don't know of any other country where so many hundreds of millions of people see prospects for a significantly better life so quickly so up close - it tends to get proportionally magnified. But the problem is, that magnification gets severely exaggerated and distorted in the West, because not only does it feed convenient stereotypes, but it provides a (temporary, in my view) smug satisfaction that somehow, at the end of the day we know that our lives are superior and our way of doing things is better, we know it all. "Oh, if only the Chinese....."
China will find its true equilibrium, and much faster and more efficiently than some - especially, the increasingly slothful among us - are willing to give them credit for.
China's not perfect either. Ask the Chinese. (I assume you're American).
My wife is from hong kong
i am from nyc
CHINA is in a very odd scary place right now .
hundreds of millions of poor Han chinese supporting tens of millions richer Han chinese
the tiny ting commie central parry has a triple loaded gun right now at its head .the 2 groups of hans <<have and have nots >add the abused minority groups which can number over a 100 million like the 'GO people "
So the central party bounces from one crisis to an other. I forsee the coal mine deaths causing major riots in the near future ..and many issues like lead paint poisoning and infant powered milk contamination will test the leaders even more .
So don't get me wrong , i wish the chinese a safe passage from communism to a systemm of free elections of some sort
The 1.4 billion crammed people in a space the size of the usa bodes not so well for anybody on this planet.
So, what's your solution? What should their employers do? Give them time to self-actualize? Write operas? Paint?
You mean like pay them more and give them more time off? Brilliant. But where else have I heard that recently? Oh, right, Foxconn execs.
You know, it's almost clever to claim your adversaries are ignorant and when proven wrong try to challenge them with intractable problems to try to "win". Almost.
Quote:
But the problem is, that magnification gets severely exaggerated and distorted in the West,
Yes, because CCTV is a US TV station and Southern Weekly is a British newspaper. Oh wait.
Quote:
China will find its true equilibrium, and much faster and more efficiently than some - especially, the increasingly slothful among us - are willing to give them credit for.
Or it might end up with another revolution. There's a reason that quite a few of the rich in China have their families in the West.
Me, I'm an optimist...I figure they'll manage a soft landing in the growing disparity between have and have nots. I wouldn't be willing to bet my family on it though.
hundreds of millions of poor Han chinese supporting tens of millions richer Han chinese
the tiny ting commie central parry has a triple loaded gun right now at its head .the 2 groups of hans <<have and have nots >add the abused minority groups which can number over a 100 million like the 'GO people "
So the central party bounces from one crisis to an other. I forsee the coal mine deaths causing major riots in the near future ..and many issues like lead paint poisoning and infant powered milk contamination will test the leaders even more .
So don't get me wrong , i wish the chinese a safe passage from communism to a systemm of free elections of some sort
The 1.4 billion crammed people in a space the size of the usa bodes not so well for anybody on this planet.
9
That's silly. The Chinese government is pretty stable. It's very pervasive and very, very well financed. When the USSR collapsed, it was totally broke. China took careful notes and they will not make the same mistake.
If you think about the 1.4 billion Chinese people, actually very few of them want to vote. Some are very angry. But probably more Americans are angry about our government, in my experience. I also take note that we enter more optional wars, and our financial policies are unsustainable. In both respects we can surmise that voters made the wrong choices. Even voters themselves are not pleased with the Obama administration. Meanwhile the Chinese public are probably more satisfied if you took a poll. Putin's popularity in Russia is also high.
That's silly. The Chinese government is pretty stable. It's very pervasive and very, very well financed. When the USSR collapsed, it was totally broke. China took careful notes and they will not make the same mistake.
If you think about the 1.4 billion Chinese people, actually very few of them want to vote. Some are very angry. But probably more Americans are angry about our government, in my experience. I also take note that we enter more optional wars, and our financial policies are unsustainable. In both respects we can surmise that voters made the wrong choices. Even voters themselves are not pleased with the Obama administration. Meanwhile the Chinese public are probably more satisfied if you took a poll. Putin's popularity in Russia is also high.
Yes, but every 4 years we can vote some other guy (or gal) in that we can be mad at.
The way the government changes there is historically a tad harder on the "outgoing administration".
The CCP has been doing quite well in ruling China the last couple decades and China is quite successful today. But the Chinese take the long view...The Qing Dyansty went from 1644-1912...and was doing quite well for a pretty long time too. This communism thing is still pretty young.
The nightmare scenario for the CCP is another cultural revolution. These 3rd gen leaders lived through the cultural revolution and also took careful notes on how many senior cadre got the ax during the cultural revolution. Either because Mao used it as an opportunity to clean house or simply got pulled down by the mob. The overreaction at Tiananmen, in my opinion, was a direct result of this fear. The cultural revolution also started as a student movement. One that was snowballing and Mao contained by the expedient of running in front of the Mob and screaming "Follow me and get THOSE guys".
Today much of the army is still from the more rural provinces. You know the poor parts. With the huge disparity in standard of living compared to the folks driving BMWs in the cities.
All it takes is one charismatic hardline communist leader with excessive ambition and an economic downturn with civil unrest to call upon the people (and, of course, the people's army) to defend the ideals of communism perverted by the current leadership and the boys in beijing are in a world of hurt. New mob and a new guy running in front of it screaming "Follow me and get THOSE guys".
The fact that 1.4B Chinese may or may not want to vote doesn't play at all into that scenario. Unless you mean voting the old fashioned way with pitchforks and torches.
It's kinda a nightmare scenario for us too. We like China the way it is. As potentially powerful as a peaceful and stable China will be and as much influence as we might lose in Asia and on the world stage we can live with that IMHO. We're the third largest country in terms of land mass and population and in any peaceful world we're still going to be a, if not the, major player. In terms of resources and demographics we are blessed.
Today much of the army is still from the more rural provinces. You know the poor parts. With the huge disparity in standard of living compared to the folks driving BMWs in the cities.
All it takes is one charismatic hardline communist leader with excessive ambition and an economic downturn with civil unrest to call upon the people (and, of course, the people's army) to defend the ideals of communism perverted by the current leadership and the boys in beijing are in a world of hurt. New mob and a new guy running in front of it screaming "Follow me and get THOSE guys".
The fact that 1.4B Chinese may or may not want to vote doesn't play at all into that scenario. Unless you mean voting the old fashioned way with pitchforks and torches.
Yeah I see that, but I don't think China is likely to have a huge economic downturn anytime soon. If they did, there could be trouble. But people know things are a million times better today than during the dismal 1960s. To sacrifice all that could plunge China back into poverty.
There is corruption there, but the CCP is trying to use that to its advantage. They proclaim jailings and killings to punish corruption, to head off this type of anger. I guess we'll see if that is good enough.
Assuming these workers only work 40 hours a week (I'm guessing they work more) then they were earning $.82/hr. Oh, but they got a 20% raise! Now they're making $.98/hr. Happy times! \
Sorry Steve, but that IS a sweat shop. You can't keep up with demand because you're having trouble finding people that will work at those rates. But hey, maybe you can find someone dying of starvation that will take less. Shameful.
Yeah I see that, but I don't think China is likely to have a huge economic downturn anytime soon. If they did, there could be trouble. But people know things are a million times better today than during the dismal 1960s. To sacrifice all that could plunge China back into poverty.
There is corruption there, but the CCP is trying to use that to its advantage. They proclaim jailings and killings to punish corruption, to head off this type of anger. I guess we'll see if that is good enough.
The vast, vast majority of China is still in poverty. All you need to do is take a stroll outside of the city. I don't think you'll want to stay real long though.
Assuming these workers only work 40 hours a week (I'm guessing they work more) then they were earning $.82/hr. Oh, but they got a 20% raise! Now they're making $.98/hr. Happy times! \
"Nevertheless, Ma said China is still poor on an income per person basis. Average income for city dwellers in 2009 was 18,858 yuan ($2,700), while in the populous countryside it was just 5,153 yuan ($752)."
Sorry Steve, but that IS a sweat shop. You can't keep up with demand because you're having trouble finding people that will work at those rates. But hey, maybe you can find someone dying of starvation that will take less. Shameful.
Actually Apple does monitor its suppliers and has them comply with better than average conditions that are found in the manufacturing sector.
"In all cases where workers were underpaid—or where the complexity of the pay structure could cause underpayment—we required facilities to complete many actions, including calculation of underpayments, repayment of underpaid wages, and implementation of management systems to ensure accurate payment in the future.
Another common violation we found was underpayment of legally required benefits. We found 57 facilities with deficient payments in worker benefits, such as sick leave, maternity leave, or social insurance for retirement. In all cases, Apple has required management to pay the full amount of facility-paid benefits according to local law.
Audits also revealed 45 facilities where wage deductions were used for disciplinary purposes. While the deductions we discovered may be legal under local laws, Apple has required an end to this practice."
It is fascinating to read the ignorant rants being posted here. Americans, of which I am one, are by and large truly ignorant about what goes on in the rest of the world (which I am not), and even ignorant about what is going on in the US. I can remember my summer job when I was in college where I was working on a Ford assembly line and it was mandatory overtime - we worked 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. I had two days off the entire summer! And that was in a union shop! But now I guess everyone thinks that would be slave labor. (The reality is thousands of people would be lined up to apply for a job like that in the US today.) These Chinese factories referred to in these articles are far from being sweatshops. These are modern factories. Housing and meals are provided, athletic facilities, etc etc. The reality is that the suicide rate is actually LOWER than in the US, by far. And the conditions are better than my summer jobs working at the auto plant and two summers working the ovens at the steel mills in Cleveland.
Just a quick question what steel mill did you work at and when? What ford assembly plant did you work at and when?
When I worked at gerdau ameristeel in st. paul minnesota in 2008 this is what our conditions were, we worked 8 hour shifts for 6 days on the day shift and 7 days on the night and evening shift, the night and evening shift worked a mandatory 12 hour shift on Saturdays. On Sundays you were paid overtime rates no matter what, anything past 12 hours on a single shift you were paid double time meaning your hourly wage was double. You were guaranteed 2 days off each week. They also had a profit sharing program called partners in performance, they basically had 3 factors, the two main ones I remember are safety and productivity for the day, basically what this program did was it took a percentage each day like 33% or 45%, at the end of the week it would take the average percentage for the week and they would then take that percentage and times it by your gross for the week, they would then take that figure and add it to your pay check as long as you should up to work on time and left on time. Basically people were making an extra $200-500 bucks each week just for showing up on time.
Now was it hard labor and extremely hot? Oh yeah! Was their overtime work available? Oh yea all the time, could do as much as 80 hours each week but you were not under pressure to do overtime then the 12 hour shifts on Saturday.
When I worked at up north plastics in cottage grove Minnesota we had to work 12 hour shifts every single shift, we could only do a maximum of 60 hours a week and we couldn't work longer then 12 hours a day.
Head over to foxconn they are working what 10-12+ shifts shifts every single day except for on Sundays with only average pay and no way for them to attend schools to actually increase their skill set to get out of the job and go on to a better one, then you add in the fact that they can't even socialize or talk to the worker that is sitting or standing right next to them while they are doing the assembly without getting punished by the managers. Ya there are basket ball courts and swimming pools but what good is it if you can't ever really use them?
Is their suicide rate lower than the national average of both China and USA? Yes it is, so then what is the point then on all these suicides at foxconn? The point is that it seems like that almost every single one of the suicides at foxconn was caused by the working conditions at foxconn, its one thing to have a lower than national average suicide rate but its entirely another when pretty much all the suicides at a company are being directly related or caused by a companies working conditions/policies.
So no it is not a sweat shop because they work in modern facilities with air conditioning, but when you look at how many hours they work and are forced to work and then you look at the strict discipline for even attempting to socialize with fellow coworkers while doing the job and then you look at the fact that there pretty much isn't any room for improvement either from a personal standpoint or a professional standpoint because of the fact that they work so many hours on so many days and then you look at how much money they are making before the raises they were given and before the cuts in hours, they were pretty much working in a sweat shop that had air conditioning. No amount of free meals or free housing is going to make them feel like they have any purpose in life nor is it going to give them any motivation to improve themselves. If you bothered to read the interviews they have done of foxconn employees that actually work on the assembly line they will tell you that they pretty much before these increases in wages and cuts in working hours that they felt like mindless robots with no purpose in life.
Has china's working conditions been improving? Yes absolutely and in some cases they are major improvements, but at foxconn they are not enough or at least until now they were not enough. As for the money those workers send home, well in some cases, as the one in the link above, they don't really make enough to even bother sending any of it home.
Yeah I see that, but I don't think China is likely to have a huge economic downturn anytime soon.
Well, if our economy collapses I can't imagine it would do good things for thiers.
Quote:
If they did, there could be trouble. But people know things are a million times better today than during the dismal 1960s. To sacrifice all that could plunge China back into poverty.
There is corruption there, but the CCP is trying to use that to its advantage. They proclaim jailings and killings to punish corruption, to head off this type of anger. I guess we'll see if that is good enough.
I think it's low probability that anything close to the nightmare scenario happens. On the other hand, cancer with a 95% survival rate still means 1 in 20 end up dying. Not saying that the odds are 5% or 1% or .1% but if you had the means to keep a home in the US and stash your family there would you?
Comments
Ah yes, I see the "Ignorant Americans" meme has been trotted out once again by all the usual suspects. Let's keep in mind that, at minimum, only half the population might be considered somewhat ignorant, mkay??
Ignorance has no borders. Period.
It is fascinating to read the ignorant rants being posted here. Americans, of which I am one, are by and large truly ignorant about what goes on in the rest of the world (which I am not), and even ignorant about what is going on in the US. I can remember my summer job when I was in college where I was working on a Ford assembly line and it was mandatory overtime - we worked 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. I had two days off the entire summer! And that was in a union shop! But now I guess everyone thinks that would be slave labor. (The reality is thousands of people would be lined up to apply for a job like that in the US today.) These Chinese factories referred to in these articles are far from being sweatshops. These are modern factories. Housing and meals are provided, athletic facilities, etc etc. The reality is that the suicide rate is actually LOWER than in the US, by far. And the conditions are better than my summer jobs working at the auto plant and two summers working the ovens at the steel mills in Cleveland.
And then we have the tool that talks about entertainment being government propaganda and all his other dribble. No, they are lined up at 5 a.m. to get tickets to the constantly sold out showings of Avatar at the local iMax theater. My wife, our newborn baby and I are currently living in China and I have been coming here for the last 11 years (my wife is Chinese) and I can tell you that you are all clueless as to what it's really like here. China has modernized like no other country in history. Factories are making conditions better all the time as expectations and worker demands are higher, and wages are increasing as are living conditions. So please, it would be better to keep your fingers off the keyboard when you truly don't know what you are talking about.
bullshit
total
some chinese are better off
many are not
yes the worst abuses are gone
but worker safety laws are not enforced at all
just look to china's coal industry
Of course those are issues - and nontrivial ones.
But that is overly cynical and simplistic, and misses the point about all the great things that are happening as well.
What you are pointing to would be like judging the US, for example, by the Gulf oil spill ('environmental issues'), Blagojevich et. al ('corruption'), or New Orleans/Katrina ('displacement').
america's 300 mill plus live under a safer sky than the billion chinese
so what's you point ??
america is not perfect .
america's 300 mill plus live under a safer sky than the billion chinese
so what's you point ??
america is not perfect .
China's not perfect either. Ask the Chinese. (I assume you're American).
Young, somewhat educated, single children from rural communities wondering why the hell they are mindlessly doing repetitive manufacturing for 15 hour days, seven days a week not for a single summer but for the foreseeable future.
You can do anything for a short period. When you're 22 and can't figure out a path to something better? These kids expected a better future than this...to someday figure out how to become lao ban and not just dai mao.
So, what's your solution? What should their employers do? Give them time to self-actualize? Write operas? Paint?
Variants of this are prevalent in every society. In China, given the sheer scale and speed of things - as far as I know, there isn't the single private employer in the West that employs 800,000 people, not even close; and I don't know of any other country where so many hundreds of millions of people see prospects for a significantly better life so quickly so up close - it tends to get proportionally magnified. But the problem is, that magnification gets severely exaggerated and distorted in the West, because not only does it feed convenient stereotypes, but it provides a (temporary, in my view) smug satisfaction that somehow, at the end of the day we know that our lives are superior and our way of doing things is better, we know it all. "Oh, if only the Chinese....."
China will find its true equilibrium, and much faster and more efficiently than some - especially, the increasingly slothful among us - are willing to give them credit for.
China's not perfect either. Ask the Chinese. (I assume you're American).
My wife is from hong kong
i am from nyc
CHINA is in a very odd scary place right now .
hundreds of millions of poor Han chinese supporting tens of millions richer Han chinese
the tiny ting commie central parry has a triple loaded gun right now at its head .the 2 groups of hans <<have and have nots >add the abused minority groups which can number over a 100 million like the 'GO people "
So the central party bounces from one crisis to an other. I forsee the coal mine deaths causing major riots in the near future ..and many issues like lead paint poisoning and infant powered milk contamination will test the leaders even more .
So don't get me wrong , i wish the chinese a safe passage from communism to a systemm of free elections of some sort
The 1.4 billion crammed people in a space the size of the usa bodes not so well for anybody on this planet.
9
The 1.4 billion crammed people in a space the size of the usa bodes not so well for anybody on this planet.
So, how do you suggest they solve this problem?
So, what's your solution? What should their employers do? Give them time to self-actualize? Write operas? Paint?
You mean like pay them more and give them more time off? Brilliant. But where else have I heard that recently? Oh, right, Foxconn execs.
You know, it's almost clever to claim your adversaries are ignorant and when proven wrong try to challenge them with intractable problems to try to "win". Almost.
But the problem is, that magnification gets severely exaggerated and distorted in the West,
Yes, because CCTV is a US TV station and Southern Weekly is a British newspaper. Oh wait.
China will find its true equilibrium, and much faster and more efficiently than some - especially, the increasingly slothful among us - are willing to give them credit for.
Or it might end up with another revolution. There's a reason that quite a few of the rich in China have their families in the West.
Me, I'm an optimist...I figure they'll manage a soft landing in the growing disparity between have and have nots. I wouldn't be willing to bet my family on it though.
My wife is from hong kong
i am from nyc
CHINA is in a very odd scary place right now .
hundreds of millions of poor Han chinese supporting tens of millions richer Han chinese
the tiny ting commie central parry has a triple loaded gun right now at its head .the 2 groups of hans <<have and have nots >add the abused minority groups which can number over a 100 million like the 'GO people "
So the central party bounces from one crisis to an other. I forsee the coal mine deaths causing major riots in the near future ..and many issues like lead paint poisoning and infant powered milk contamination will test the leaders even more .
So don't get me wrong , i wish the chinese a safe passage from communism to a systemm of free elections of some sort
The 1.4 billion crammed people in a space the size of the usa bodes not so well for anybody on this planet.
9
That's silly. The Chinese government is pretty stable. It's very pervasive and very, very well financed. When the USSR collapsed, it was totally broke. China took careful notes and they will not make the same mistake.
If you think about the 1.4 billion Chinese people, actually very few of them want to vote. Some are very angry. But probably more Americans are angry about our government, in my experience. I also take note that we enter more optional wars, and our financial policies are unsustainable. In both respects we can surmise that voters made the wrong choices. Even voters themselves are not pleased with the Obama administration. Meanwhile the Chinese public are probably more satisfied if you took a poll. Putin's popularity in Russia is also high.
That's silly. The Chinese government is pretty stable. It's very pervasive and very, very well financed. When the USSR collapsed, it was totally broke. China took careful notes and they will not make the same mistake.
If you think about the 1.4 billion Chinese people, actually very few of them want to vote. Some are very angry. But probably more Americans are angry about our government, in my experience. I also take note that we enter more optional wars, and our financial policies are unsustainable. In both respects we can surmise that voters made the wrong choices. Even voters themselves are not pleased with the Obama administration. Meanwhile the Chinese public are probably more satisfied if you took a poll. Putin's popularity in Russia is also high.
Yes, but every 4 years we can vote some other guy (or gal) in that we can be mad at.
The way the government changes there is historically a tad harder on the "outgoing administration".
The CCP has been doing quite well in ruling China the last couple decades and China is quite successful today. But the Chinese take the long view...The Qing Dyansty went from 1644-1912...and was doing quite well for a pretty long time too. This communism thing is still pretty young.
The nightmare scenario for the CCP is another cultural revolution. These 3rd gen leaders lived through the cultural revolution and also took careful notes on how many senior cadre got the ax during the cultural revolution. Either because Mao used it as an opportunity to clean house or simply got pulled down by the mob. The overreaction at Tiananmen, in my opinion, was a direct result of this fear. The cultural revolution also started as a student movement. One that was snowballing and Mao contained by the expedient of running in front of the Mob and screaming "Follow me and get THOSE guys".
Today much of the army is still from the more rural provinces. You know the poor parts. With the huge disparity in standard of living compared to the folks driving BMWs in the cities.
All it takes is one charismatic hardline communist leader with excessive ambition and an economic downturn with civil unrest to call upon the people (and, of course, the people's army) to defend the ideals of communism perverted by the current leadership and the boys in beijing are in a world of hurt. New mob and a new guy running in front of it screaming "Follow me and get THOSE guys".
The fact that 1.4B Chinese may or may not want to vote doesn't play at all into that scenario. Unless you mean voting the old fashioned way with pitchforks and torches.
It's kinda a nightmare scenario for us too. We like China the way it is. As potentially powerful as a peaceful and stable China will be and as much influence as we might lose in Asia and on the world stage we can live with that IMHO. We're the third largest country in terms of land mass and population and in any peaceful world we're still going to be a, if not the, major player. In terms of resources and demographics we are blessed.
http://finance.yahoo.com/family-home...s-growth-model
Research - Getting the Numbers Right: International Engineering Education in the United States, China and India
http://www.wadhwa.com/research_gettingthenumbers.html
Kiplinger Business Forcast
7 Reasons Not To Fear China
http://content.kiplinger.com/tools/s...hina_problems#
Today much of the army is still from the more rural provinces. You know the poor parts. With the huge disparity in standard of living compared to the folks driving BMWs in the cities.
All it takes is one charismatic hardline communist leader with excessive ambition and an economic downturn with civil unrest to call upon the people (and, of course, the people's army) to defend the ideals of communism perverted by the current leadership and the boys in beijing are in a world of hurt. New mob and a new guy running in front of it screaming "Follow me and get THOSE guys".
The fact that 1.4B Chinese may or may not want to vote doesn't play at all into that scenario. Unless you mean voting the old fashioned way with pitchforks and torches.
Yeah I see that, but I don't think China is likely to have a huge economic downturn anytime soon. If they did, there could be trouble. But people know things are a million times better today than during the dismal 1960s. To sacrifice all that could plunge China back into poverty.
There is corruption there, but the CCP is trying to use that to its advantage. They proclaim jailings and killings to punish corruption, to head off this type of anger. I guess we'll see if that is good enough.
Try some Tetris!
Sorry Steve, but that IS a sweat shop. You can't keep up with demand because you're having trouble finding people that will work at those rates. But hey, maybe you can find someone dying of starvation that will take less. Shameful.
Yeah I see that, but I don't think China is likely to have a huge economic downturn anytime soon. If they did, there could be trouble. But people know things are a million times better today than during the dismal 1960s. To sacrifice all that could plunge China back into poverty.
There is corruption there, but the CCP is trying to use that to its advantage. They proclaim jailings and killings to punish corruption, to head off this type of anger. I guess we'll see if that is good enough.
The vast, vast majority of China is still in poverty. All you need to do is take a stroll outside of the city. I don't think you'll want to stay real long though.
Assuming these workers only work 40 hours a week (I'm guessing they work more) then they were earning $.82/hr. Oh, but they got a 20% raise! Now they're making $.98/hr. Happy times!
Average Wage in China 2005
http://www.worldsalaries.org/china.shtml
World Bank Report
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTE...318950,00.html
Differences between city vs country dwellers:
"Nevertheless, Ma said China is still poor on an income per person basis. Average income for city dwellers in 2009 was 18,858 yuan ($2,700), while in the populous countryside it was just 5,153 yuan ($752)."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/0..._n_431189.html
Sorry Steve, but that IS a sweat shop. You can't keep up with demand because you're having trouble finding people that will work at those rates. But hey, maybe you can find someone dying of starvation that will take less. Shameful.
Actually Apple does monitor its suppliers and has them comply with better than average conditions that are found in the manufacturing sector.
"In all cases where workers were underpaid—or where the complexity of the pay structure could cause underpayment—we required facilities to complete many actions, including calculation of underpayments, repayment of underpaid wages, and implementation of management systems to ensure accurate payment in the future.
Another common violation we found was underpayment of legally required benefits. We found 57 facilities with deficient payments in worker benefits, such as sick leave, maternity leave, or social insurance for retirement. In all cases, Apple has required management to pay the full amount of facility-paid benefits according to local law.
Audits also revealed 45 facilities where wage deductions were used for disciplinary purposes. While the deductions we discovered may be legal under local laws, Apple has required an end to this practice."
http://images.apple.com/supplierresp...0Report_FF.pdf
It is fascinating to read the ignorant rants being posted here. Americans, of which I am one, are by and large truly ignorant about what goes on in the rest of the world (which I am not), and even ignorant about what is going on in the US. I can remember my summer job when I was in college where I was working on a Ford assembly line and it was mandatory overtime - we worked 10 hours a day, 7 days a week. I had two days off the entire summer! And that was in a union shop! But now I guess everyone thinks that would be slave labor. (The reality is thousands of people would be lined up to apply for a job like that in the US today.) These Chinese factories referred to in these articles are far from being sweatshops. These are modern factories. Housing and meals are provided, athletic facilities, etc etc. The reality is that the suicide rate is actually LOWER than in the US, by far. And the conditions are better than my summer jobs working at the auto plant and two summers working the ovens at the steel mills in Cleveland.
Just a quick question what steel mill did you work at and when? What ford assembly plant did you work at and when?
When I worked at gerdau ameristeel in st. paul minnesota in 2008 this is what our conditions were, we worked 8 hour shifts for 6 days on the day shift and 7 days on the night and evening shift, the night and evening shift worked a mandatory 12 hour shift on Saturdays. On Sundays you were paid overtime rates no matter what, anything past 12 hours on a single shift you were paid double time meaning your hourly wage was double. You were guaranteed 2 days off each week. They also had a profit sharing program called partners in performance, they basically had 3 factors, the two main ones I remember are safety and productivity for the day, basically what this program did was it took a percentage each day like 33% or 45%, at the end of the week it would take the average percentage for the week and they would then take that percentage and times it by your gross for the week, they would then take that figure and add it to your pay check as long as you should up to work on time and left on time. Basically people were making an extra $200-500 bucks each week just for showing up on time.
Now was it hard labor and extremely hot? Oh yeah! Was their overtime work available? Oh yea all the time, could do as much as 80 hours each week but you were not under pressure to do overtime then the 12 hour shifts on Saturday.
When I worked at up north plastics in cottage grove Minnesota we had to work 12 hour shifts every single shift, we could only do a maximum of 60 hours a week and we couldn't work longer then 12 hours a day.
Head over to foxconn they are working what 10-12+ shifts shifts every single day except for on Sundays with only average pay and no way for them to attend schools to actually increase their skill set to get out of the job and go on to a better one, then you add in the fact that they can't even socialize or talk to the worker that is sitting or standing right next to them while they are doing the assembly without getting punished by the managers. Ya there are basket ball courts and swimming pools but what good is it if you can't ever really use them?
Is their suicide rate lower than the national average of both China and USA? Yes it is, so then what is the point then on all these suicides at foxconn? The point is that it seems like that almost every single one of the suicides at foxconn was caused by the working conditions at foxconn, its one thing to have a lower than national average suicide rate but its entirely another when pretty much all the suicides at a company are being directly related or caused by a companies working conditions/policies.
So no it is not a sweat shop because they work in modern facilities with air conditioning, but when you look at how many hours they work and are forced to work and then you look at the strict discipline for even attempting to socialize with fellow coworkers while doing the job and then you look at the fact that there pretty much isn't any room for improvement either from a personal standpoint or a professional standpoint because of the fact that they work so many hours on so many days and then you look at how much money they are making before the raises they were given and before the cuts in hours, they were pretty much working in a sweat shop that had air conditioning. No amount of free meals or free housing is going to make them feel like they have any purpose in life nor is it going to give them any motivation to improve themselves. If you bothered to read the interviews they have done of foxconn employees that actually work on the assembly line they will tell you that they pretty much before these increases in wages and cuts in working hours that they felt like mindless robots with no purpose in life.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-0...-suicides.html
Has china's working conditions been improving? Yes absolutely and in some cases they are major improvements, but at foxconn they are not enough or at least until now they were not enough. As for the money those workers send home, well in some cases, as the one in the link above, they don't really make enough to even bother sending any of it home.
Yeah I see that, but I don't think China is likely to have a huge economic downturn anytime soon.
Well, if our economy collapses I can't imagine it would do good things for thiers.
If they did, there could be trouble. But people know things are a million times better today than during the dismal 1960s. To sacrifice all that could plunge China back into poverty.
There is corruption there, but the CCP is trying to use that to its advantage. They proclaim jailings and killings to punish corruption, to head off this type of anger. I guess we'll see if that is good enough.
I think it's low probability that anything close to the nightmare scenario happens. On the other hand, cancer with a 95% survival rate still means 1 in 20 end up dying. Not saying that the odds are 5% or 1% or .1% but if you had the means to keep a home in the US and stash your family there would you?