[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
Quality vs. Quantity. You write paragraphs of crap and I expressed my point of view in 3 words. You are a waste of time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The author of the thread appears to disagree with you that my post was worthless. When he had a problem with what I had to say he responded within the bounds of the topic. You cannot seem to respond outside of a personal attack. Why do you not see this?
The author of the thread appears to disagree with you that my post was worthless. When he had a problem with what I had to say he responded within the bounds of the topic. You cannot seem to respond outside of a personal attack. Why do you not see this?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Did I say that EVERYONE finds your post worthless? NO you dotard. I simply said that many people will find your ramblings to be "nothing."
If you go and tell all your friends and they tell everyone then it becomes a part of public record at that point. Not a public conversation. A fine point, but no finer that the point you take?
Well, somebody made it public. I assume it wasn?t God. So why did Moses make what was intended be a private conversion public?
quote
Not the worst.
It was already clear what happened to people who didn?t listen to God. I don?t think to say the worst would be an exaggeration. I?ll refer you to the story of Sodom and Gomorra, or the story of the flood.
quote
40 years? It does not fit here. 5-10 could be made a case, 40 seems really extreme for the reasons given.
Not at all. Prospecting for minerals is not the easiest thing to do, even with our modern technology. Can you image what it must have been like to do this at that time? And given the problem I mentioned earlier of trying to keep this activity hidden.
quote
no need to abbreviate it for me
Ok. People interested in this topic will read whole thing anyway. People that are not will move on.
quote
BTW, I just caught your last response to me in the "Religious Thread, Beware"
Your whole agenda of hate-spreading against anything arab/muslim is really patetic.
Remeber, nomatter how hard you try to demonize the arab world, it doesn't justify israels aparteid policies.
Yeah, like it isn't plain to see where your going with this thread...
This is from someone who doesn?t hesitate for a moment in calling Israel an Apartheid, Nazi state. And who regularly calls its prime minister a war criminal.
New, I could have said the same about you regarding your posts about Israel. And I have. I have already called you a brain-dead duplicitous racist. And I stand by my words, Irving. Others also noted your attempts at a smear campaign against Israel. So I?m not alone in this view.
Furthermore, your inability to see critically anything relating to Arabs and/or Muslims is kind of disturbing. And if you haven?t noticed, the author has many unflattering things to say about Judaism and Christianity. And they are all perfectly valid things to say.
To you history might have begun on 1967. But if you ever hope to understand the dynamic of the situation in the Middle East, I suggest you drop this dim-witted worldview.
You had to drag me back in didn't you... <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
[quote] This is from someone who doesn?t hesitate for a moment in calling Israel an Apartheid, Nazi state. And who regularly calls its prime minister a war criminal. <hr></blockquote>
You lie, plain and simple. I never said any of those things, go back and read my posts...
[quote] And if you haven?t noticed, the author has many unflattering things to say about Judaism and Christianity. And they are all perfectly valid things to say. <hr></blockquote>
I'm not questioning the authors motives, I'm questioning yours.
[quote] To you history might have begun on 1967. But if you ever hope to understand the dynamic of the situation in the Middle East, I suggest you drop this dim-witted worldview. <hr></blockquote>
No to me, history didn't begin 1273 BC, like you seem to believe
And your understanding is better? Seeing one side as pure evil, and the other guided by god? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Didn?t do any such thing. In fact I would prefer that you don?t participate in this thread. So there.
quote
You lie, plain and simple. I never said any of those things, go back and read my posts...
I?ll let people judge that for themselves. Unless you?ve gone back and edited all the relevant posts.
quote
I'm not questioning the authors motives, I'm questioning yours.
Well, there is no need. My motives are the same as the authors. Plainly said, I would like the roll back Arab/Islamic expansionism. Starting with their colonies on our lands.
quote
No to me, history didn't begin 1273 BC, like you seem to believe
Never said it has.
quote
And your understanding is better? Seeing one side as pure evil, and the other guided by god?
I was willing to debate you on your own terms, and you lost. Then you started claiming that the arguments you made are not at all your arguments.
As far as your second point, you know very well that I?m not religious. Furthermore, you know that the vast majority of Israelis aren?t religious either. Yet when Islamic Jihad and the other Islamic outfits claim responsibility for their murder campaigns you fall curiously silent. Maybe if you weren?t so close-minded you'd see how things fit together.
PC>killah, I guess your original post may have succeeded if it was intended to show how absolutely misguided 'nationalisms' are, both arab and Jewish, especially when they are grounded in ideas such as '"our leader is the mouthpiece of the one true god" and "we are right because God is on our side -we the chosen people"
successfull IF that was what you intended, because what it also does is show that claims to nationhood founded on ideas of religious inspiration are generally also founded on the fraud of manipulative egotists. . . .meaning that the specialness of a people, that which makes them think more of themselves than of other people, is founded on lies and self deception.
Didn?t do any such thing. In fact I would prefer that you don?t participate in this thread. So there.<hr></blockquote>
It's always smart to check the thread before posting your reply... did I say smart? well that explains it then...
[quote]You lie, plain and simple. I never said any of those things, go back and read my posts...
I?ll let people judge that for themselves. Unless you?ve gone back and edited all the relevant posts.<hr></blockquote>
Why don't you dig up the examples yourself? Really easy to throw around acusations without backing it up, right? Ohh, backing up stuff? That explains this one...
[quote]I'm not questioning the authors motives, I'm questioning yours.
Well, there is no need. My motives are the same as the authors. Plainly said, I would like the roll back Arab/Islamic expansionism. Starting with their colonies on our lands. <hr></blockquote>No his motives is questioning his former religion. (at least apperently it is). Your motive is spreading hate against a people and a culture you despise and want to throw out of your neighbourhood.
[quote]No to me, history didn't begin 1273 BC, like you seem to believe
Never said it has. <hr></blockquote>
So who lived in Israel/palestine prior to this year then?
[quote]I was willing to debate you on your own terms, and you lost. Then you started claiming that the arguments you made are not at all your arguments. <hr></blockquote>
wrong. You invented some funny arguments, claimed they where mine, and then fleed the discussion. chicken!
[quote]As far as your second point, you know very well that I?m not religious. Furthermore, you know that the vast majority of Israelis aren?t religious either. Yet when Islamic Jihad and the other Islamic outfits claim responsibility for their murder campaigns you fall curiously silent. Maybe if you weren?t so close-minded you'd see how things fit together.<hr></blockquote> I don't care wether your religious or not, fundamentalist is enough for me.
And just for the record, in my book all fundamentalism is bad, Yours is, the Jihad is, but not all arabs are fundamentalist, far from it.
pfflam, I?m not a social anthropologist so I can?t say with absolute certainty, but from my personal observations living in Israel, I?d say the vast majority of Israelis are very ambivalent about the role of religion as it regards their nationalism. Most people here are not religious, but many, including myself, view the bible as somewhat autobiographical of the story of Jewish people. Jew/Israelis are also very conscious of that fact that if it wasn?t for the religious component in our nationalism, we, almost certainly, would not have survived the 2000 years of exile, and still retained our unique national characteristics. There aren?t many nations left on this earth that can say we are the same nation that we were 3000 years ago. Speaking the same ancient language, living on the same ancient land. Practicing the same ancient national rites. And yet we are as modern in the full sense of the word, as any country on this Earth.
So, although you are possibly correct is asserting that originally the nation was founded on ideas of religious inspiration, with all the aforementioned implications, this assessment I think is somewhat outdated as it concerns the development of the modern state of Israel and its people. Israel has never fought a war to dominate another nation. Contrary to what the Arabs have you believe. We have never sought to convert anyone to our way of life. We have tried as much if not more than most nations to accommodate other peoples cultures, religions, and nationalities within our border, without infringing on their cultural, religious, and social structures.
But for Israelis to tolerate Islam, in its current incarnation, will be tantamount to committing collective suicide. Unfortunately, not many people understand what Islam really is. And political correctness has hindered, and still does, a real critical assessment at this political system.
You know New, I?ve met 12 year olds that are brighter than you. I?m not going through this again with you. You are a waste of time. People that followed our previous conversions know exactly where the truth lies, Irving. I already know you for what you are, and that?s enough for me.
Now, if you have something constructive to say regarding this specific topic, well, be my guest. If you don?t, then get lost.
mika.
ps. And what?s with all the smilies? You come across as a damn Schizoid.
<strong> I don't care wether your religious or not, fundamentalist is enough for me.
And just for the record, in my book all fundamentalism is bad, Yours is, the Jihad is, but not all arabs are fundamentalist, far from it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fundamentalism or bust baby. Fundamentalism simply means that you believe in *gasp* ALL OF "god's" [alleged] WORDS. Frankly, anyone who claims to be religious and isn't fundamentalist is a hypocrite. It isn't their place to decide which of god's words are more important. If they want to say that the [insert random alleged holy book here] is the word of god, then they need to follow it to the letter. Who the hell are we mere mortals to argue with god?
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
EiF yes but one perosn's "to the letter" is another persons Apostacy>
As for PC.killa, it makes me ask then, what is a Jew if not a religion? its a culture? a race? was Sammy Davis Junior a jew?
I sometimes get the feeling that being jewish is not just a matter of self definition but also is the fact that even if you change your name and try to assimilate to wahtever non-jewish culture that culture will still place the jew in a position of otherness . . . . this seems integral to the mind set and identity of jewishness. . . perhaps because of thousands of years of persecution and pograms and 'homelessness'. but I could be wrong.
Perhaps a consequence of this, or maybe one of the reasons is that I think that to be a jewish identified jew, meaning, one who thinks of himself as a jew, it is a kind of identity structure that sort of gets its specificity in opposition to non-jews (which doesn't mean that jews think of others as less human just not-jewish: after all look at the civil rights movement and the role of jews therein)but perhaps this tendency (which I see as a result to the years of diaspora and struggle) is what you tried to say is actually a result of a theological perspective. . . . .hm? could be . . .
Hmm, ? you raise some very interesting questions... (a little off topic, but I?ll try to answer them as best I can)
what is a Jew if not a religion?
First, let me refer you to the thread: "Why not move Israel to the U.S.?"
Rash and I attacked this question in a round about way on that thread. If you still are confused I can elaborate some more on this?
was Sammy Davis Junior a jew?
Was Stalin a Communist? If you decide to become a part of a group that you identify with, then you are part of that group, are you not?
the jew in a position of otherness . . . . this seems integral to the mind set and identity of jewishness.
Hmm, ?
I remember as a child living in Lithuania, having had a very domineering and aggressive personality. I was a bully in short. But I was the bully?s bully. I always identified with the underdog or the weaker party. How unique that is, or how ?Jewish? it is, I don?t think it is.
I think most of us identify with the underdog, or the ?other?. Just look at these forums. There is a perception that the Arabs in the Arab/Israeli conflict are the underdogs, because of Israel?s military superiority. (Of-course, this is a false perception fostered by Arab propagandists. If you follow the political and diplomatic events, this becomes very clear). And so you have had many people on these forums that rallied to the cause of the Arabs. Even though on closer inspection their worldview is much more closely aligned with that of Israel?s.
it is a kind of identity structure that sort of gets its specificity in opposition to non-jews
Heheh, ? well, I suggest you come and visit us in Israel. I?ll be very happy to host you. I think once you?ve had a taste of Israel, I doubt you?ll still hold to that perception. Israelis are very receptive to foreign peoples, cultures, ideas, technologies, etc. Plus we have a very beautiful country for the tourist to enjoy.
Comments
<strong>
Quality vs. Quantity. You write paragraphs of crap and I expressed my point of view in 3 words. You are a waste of time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The author of the thread appears to disagree with you that my post was worthless. When he had a problem with what I had to say he responded within the bounds of the topic. You cannot seem to respond outside of a personal attack. Why do you not see this?
<strong>
The author of the thread appears to disagree with you that my post was worthless. When he had a problem with what I had to say he responded within the bounds of the topic. You cannot seem to respond outside of a personal attack. Why do you not see this?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Did I say that EVERYONE finds your post worthless? NO you dotard. I simply said that many people will find your ramblings to be "nothing."
If you go and tell all your friends and they tell everyone then it becomes a part of public record at that point. Not a public conversation. A fine point, but no finer that the point you take?
Well, somebody made it public. I assume it wasn?t God. So why did Moses make what was intended be a private conversion public?
quote
Not the worst.
It was already clear what happened to people who didn?t listen to God. I don?t think to say the worst would be an exaggeration. I?ll refer you to the story of Sodom and Gomorra, or the story of the flood.
quote
40 years? It does not fit here. 5-10 could be made a case, 40 seems really extreme for the reasons given.
Not at all. Prospecting for minerals is not the easiest thing to do, even with our modern technology. Can you image what it must have been like to do this at that time? And given the problem I mentioned earlier of trying to keep this activity hidden.
quote
no need to abbreviate it for me
Ok. People interested in this topic will read whole thing anyway. People that are not will move on.
quote
BTW, I just caught your last response to me in the "Religious Thread, Beware"
NP. I?ll look for your response.
mika.
Your whole agenda of hate-spreading against anything arab/muslim is really patetic.
Remeber, nomatter how hard you try to demonize the arab world, it doesn't justify israels aparteid policies.
Yeah, like it isn't plain to see where your going with this thread...
This is from someone who doesn?t hesitate for a moment in calling Israel an Apartheid, Nazi state. And who regularly calls its prime minister a war criminal.
New, I could have said the same about you regarding your posts about Israel. And I have. I have already called you a brain-dead duplicitous racist. And I stand by my words, Irving.
Furthermore, your inability to see critically anything relating to Arabs and/or Muslims is kind of disturbing. And if you haven?t noticed, the author has many unflattering things to say about Judaism and Christianity. And they are all perfectly valid things to say.
To you history might have begun on 1967. But if you ever hope to understand the dynamic of the situation in the Middle East, I suggest you drop this dim-witted worldview.
mika.
[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
[quote] This is from someone who doesn?t hesitate for a moment in calling Israel an Apartheid, Nazi state. And who regularly calls its prime minister a war criminal. <hr></blockquote>
You lie, plain and simple.
[quote] And if you haven?t noticed, the author has many unflattering things to say about Judaism and Christianity. And they are all perfectly valid things to say. <hr></blockquote>
I'm not questioning the authors motives, I'm questioning yours.
[quote] To you history might have begun on 1967. But if you ever hope to understand the dynamic of the situation in the Middle East, I suggest you drop this dim-witted worldview. <hr></blockquote>
No to me, history didn't begin 1273 BC, like you seem to believe
And your understanding is better? Seeing one side as pure evil, and the other guided by god? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
You had to drag me back in didn't you...
Didn?t do any such thing. In fact I would prefer that you don?t participate in this thread. So there.
quote
You lie, plain and simple. I never said any of those things, go back and read my posts...
I?ll let people judge that for themselves. Unless you?ve gone back and edited all the relevant posts.
quote
I'm not questioning the authors motives, I'm questioning yours.
Well, there is no need. My motives are the same as the authors. Plainly said, I would like the roll back Arab/Islamic expansionism. Starting with their colonies on our lands.
quote
No to me, history didn't begin 1273 BC, like you seem to believe
Never said it has.
quote
And your understanding is better? Seeing one side as pure evil, and the other guided by god?
I was willing to debate you on your own terms, and you lost. Then you started claiming that the arguments you made are not at all your arguments.
As far as your second point, you know very well that I?m not religious. Furthermore, you know that the vast majority of Israelis aren?t religious either. Yet when Islamic Jihad and the other Islamic outfits claim responsibility for their murder campaigns you fall curiously silent. Maybe if you weren?t so close-minded you'd see how things fit together.
mika.
[ 05-20-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
successfull IF that was what you intended, because what it also does is show that claims to nationhood founded on ideas of religious inspiration are generally also founded on the fraud of manipulative egotists. . . .meaning that the specialness of a people, that which makes them think more of themselves than of other people, is founded on lies and self deception.
.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: pfflam ]</p>
Didn?t do any such thing. In fact I would prefer that you don?t participate in this thread. So there.<hr></blockquote>
It's always smart to check the thread before posting your reply... did I say smart? well that explains it then...
[quote]You lie, plain and simple. I never said any of those things, go back and read my posts...
I?ll let people judge that for themselves. Unless you?ve gone back and edited all the relevant posts.<hr></blockquote>
Why don't you dig up the examples yourself? Really easy to throw around acusations without backing it up, right? Ohh, backing up stuff? That explains this one...
[quote]I'm not questioning the authors motives, I'm questioning yours.
Well, there is no need. My motives are the same as the authors. Plainly said, I would like the roll back Arab/Islamic expansionism. Starting with their colonies on our lands. <hr></blockquote>No his motives is questioning his former religion. (at least apperently it is). Your motive is spreading hate against a people and a culture you despise and want to throw out of your neighbourhood.
[quote]No to me, history didn't begin 1273 BC, like you seem to believe
Never said it has. <hr></blockquote>
So who lived in Israel/palestine prior to this year then?
[quote]I was willing to debate you on your own terms, and you lost. Then you started claiming that the arguments you made are not at all your arguments. <hr></blockquote>
wrong. You invented some funny arguments, claimed they where mine, and then fleed the discussion. chicken!
[quote]As far as your second point, you know very well that I?m not religious. Furthermore, you know that the vast majority of Israelis aren?t religious either. Yet when Islamic Jihad and the other Islamic outfits claim responsibility for their murder campaigns you fall curiously silent. Maybe if you weren?t so close-minded you'd see how things fit together.<hr></blockquote> I don't care wether your religious or not, fundamentalist is enough for me.
And just for the record, in my book all fundamentalism is bad, Yours is, the Jihad is, but not all arabs are fundamentalist, far from it.
So, although you are possibly correct is asserting that originally the nation was founded on ideas of religious inspiration, with all the aforementioned implications, this assessment I think is somewhat outdated as it concerns the development of the modern state of Israel and its people. Israel has never fought a war to dominate another nation. Contrary to what the Arabs have you believe. We have never sought to convert anyone to our way of life. We have tried as much if not more than most nations to accommodate other peoples cultures, religions, and nationalities within our border, without infringing on their cultural, religious, and social structures.
But for Israelis to tolerate Islam, in its current incarnation, will be tantamount to committing collective suicide. Unfortunately, not many people understand what Islam really is. And political correctness has hindered, and still does, a real critical assessment at this political system.
mika.
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>
Now, if you have something constructive to say regarding this specific topic, well, be my guest. If you don?t, then get lost.
mika.
ps. And what?s with all the smilies? You come across as a damn Schizoid.
<strong> I don't care wether your religious or not, fundamentalist is enough for me.
And just for the record, in my book all fundamentalism is bad, Yours is, the Jihad is, but not all arabs are fundamentalist, far from it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fundamentalism or bust baby. Fundamentalism simply means that you believe in *gasp* ALL OF "god's" [alleged] WORDS. Frankly, anyone who claims to be religious and isn't fundamentalist is a hypocrite. It isn't their place to decide which of god's words are more important. If they want to say that the [insert random alleged holy book here] is the word of god, then they need to follow it to the letter. Who the hell are we mere mortals to argue with god?
[ 05-21-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
As for PC.killa, it makes me ask then, what is a Jew if not a religion? its a culture? a race? was Sammy Davis Junior a jew?
I sometimes get the feeling that being jewish is not just a matter of self definition but also is the fact that even if you change your name and try to assimilate to wahtever non-jewish culture that culture will still place the jew in a position of otherness . . . . this seems integral to the mind set and identity of jewishness. . . perhaps because of thousands of years of persecution and pograms and 'homelessness'. but I could be wrong.
Perhaps a consequence of this, or maybe one of the reasons is that I think that to be a jewish identified jew, meaning, one who thinks of himself as a jew, it is a kind of identity structure that sort of gets its specificity in opposition to non-jews (which doesn't mean that jews think of others as less human just not-jewish: after all look at the civil rights movement and the role of jews therein)but perhaps this tendency (which I see as a result to the years of diaspora and struggle) is what you tried to say is actually a result of a theological perspective. . . . .hm? could be . . .
what is a Jew if not a religion?
First, let me refer you to the thread: "Why not move Israel to the U.S.?"
Rash and I attacked this question in a round about way on that thread. If you still are confused I can elaborate some more on this?
was Sammy Davis Junior a jew?
Was Stalin a Communist? If you decide to become a part of a group that you identify with, then you are part of that group, are you not?
the jew in a position of otherness . . . . this seems integral to the mind set and identity of jewishness.
Hmm, ?
I remember as a child living in Lithuania, having had a very domineering and aggressive personality. I was a bully in short. But I was the bully?s bully. I always identified with the underdog or the weaker party. How unique that is, or how ?Jewish? it is, I don?t think it is.
I think most of us identify with the underdog, or the ?other?. Just look at these forums. There is a perception that the Arabs in the Arab/Israeli conflict are the underdogs, because of Israel?s military superiority. (Of-course, this is a false perception fostered by Arab propagandists. If you follow the political and diplomatic events, this becomes very clear). And so you have had many people on these forums that rallied to the cause of the Arabs. Even though on closer inspection their worldview is much more closely aligned with that of Israel?s.
it is a kind of identity structure that sort of gets its specificity in opposition to non-jews
Heheh, ? well, I suggest you come and visit us in Israel. I?ll be very happy to host you. I think once you?ve had a taste of Israel, I doubt you?ll still hold to that perception. Israelis are very receptive to foreign peoples, cultures, ideas, technologies, etc. Plus we have a very beautiful country for the tourist to enjoy.
mika.
[ 05-22-2002: Message edited by: PC^KILLA ]</p>