Nice try to redefine the meaning of the word "lie". Fact is the European media lied about the Jewish state. Much like the Nazis did before WW2 and the Arab press does now. Not good company to keep.
I don't agree with you on the second part either. An independent media is central to democracy. If the media sucks from the teat of the government how can it be considered to be free of bias?
I think you?re a little to engrossed in the "superiority" of your system to see it?s faults. Your loath to criticize yourself and would rather explain it away. Time to look in the mirror and demand better from your press in the future.</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) well we do not share the same conception of a lie.
2) The press is free in France. Except TV journal in France 2 and France 3 , the newspaper are independant. TF1 the most important TV channel with the most popular TV news belong to a private group like many US TV channel. Le monde have nothing to do with the governement for example. We have also satyrical newspaper like the "canard enchaine" : very hard stuff here for the governement.
Concerning TV i will add that i have the satellite, and thus access to CNN. We are not stuck in the world of today to our own media.
3) Never claim that European press is better than the Us one : don't have to look in the mirror for this, dont like me specially too either. Never have claim that Europe is superior in these boards, but will support it if i think there is unfair comments about it. Stupid Patriotism may be ?
There was a BBC TV report here (don't know if they showed it in the States) that had a Palestinian funeral procession. Many Palestinians in the streets carrying a white clothed body when one of the carriers tripped and the clothed body fell to the ground and then the guy got up and put himself back up (the guy that was SUPPOSED to be DEAD). The carriies DROPPED him again! and this time he ran off. It was all on BBC over here. I have to say, this DID not help the Palestian cause and demostrated their ability to maninulate the Jenin situation. It certainly damages their credibility and gives more weight to reports that bodies were dug up and planted near Jenin bulldozed buildings.
I am getting so sick and tired of the Israel Palestinian situation. They are both wrong.
They are dependent on people's money, and desires.
Anyway, Israel is paying it off now since it is yesterday's news like rushmon said.
When IDF kills a reporter intentionally, Israel should not expect the rest of fellow reporters to be fair willingly in their reports. </strong><hr></blockquote>
IDF should never mess with reporters. Be nice, be humble, and be patient with reports, or be smeared, dehuminized, and satan-ized by the same reporters.
IDF should never mess with reporters. Be nice, be humble, and be patient with reports, or be smeared, dehuminized, and satan-ized by the same reporters. </strong><hr></blockquote>
The IDF has a job to do .. its not simple and its very risky ... people who walk around in war zones should not expect safety.. its mad and sad but that's the way it is in any war .... did we have any real journalism from Afghanistan or Kososvo ?
Anyway nowhere in this article does it say that the IDF have intentionally killed a journalist because they didn't do that !
The IDF has a job to do .. its not simple and its very risky ... people who walk around in war zones should not expect safety.. its mad and sad but that's the way it is in any war .... did we have any real journalism from Afghanistan or Kososvo ?
Anyway nowhere in this article does it say that the IDF have intentionally killed a journalist because they didn't do that !</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fourth paragraph:
[quote] An Israeli army spokeswoman said the soldiers threw stun grenades at the journalists because they did not "cease and desist. This is a closed military zone and they should not have been there in the first place."
<hr></blockquote>
That tells me all shootings are intentional to keep Journalist away from such areas since they are closed military zones.
The truth never seems to be told when it comes to the illegal, distasteful, dishonorable and immoral actions of the Palestinian terrorists.
The truth is that the terrorist have taken cover as legitimate press. Using press credentials to invade Israel and kill civilians. But that story never seems to be told huh? Rather the so called "human rights" groups and international press associations only use what they want to condemn Israel. But when it comes to the Jewish state lies are not lies and the truth need not be told.
The Jerusalem Post reports Israeli authorities have arrested a Palestinian terrorist who was posing as a journalist:
Yesterday morning security forces discovered an explosive belt containing 10 kg. [22 pounds] of TNT in a marble factory at the Erez industrial zone in the northern Gaza Strip.
Border Police sappers defused the belt and security forces detained a number of Palestinians for questioning. The belt was found after security officials received information from a Palestinian arrested at the Erez crossing on Wednesday during a routine check.
The occupants in his car, which had a "Press" sticker on its window, were detained by security forces after a grenade was found in the car. One of the detainees, Iyad Abed al-Ghali, 23, claimed he was a journalist, but later told investigators he works in the industrial zone and had hidden the belt in the factory, planning to latter smuggle it across the Green Line.
We checked the Web sites of <a href="http://www.rsf.org/content.php3"; target="_blank">Reporters Sans Frontières</a> and the International <a href="http://www.ifj.org/ifjfrontpage.html"; target="_blank">Federation of Journalists</a>. Surprise, surprise--though both organizations have press releases condemning Israel for its supposed mistreatment of Palestinian "journalists," we found not a word of condemnation of Arab terrorists disguising themselves as journalists in order to kill Jews.
That tells me all shootings are intentional to keep Journalist away from such areas since they are closed military zones. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Stun grenades are non-lethal weapons.... there is a great deal of difference between shooting to kill and throwing stun grenades as a warning to get the hell out of dangerous war zones .. the IDF does not shoot to kill journalists !!!
Also re what Scot just posted there have been many incidents like this .... involving so called journalists who turned out to be terrorists .. after all what's to prevent the militants from pasting TV all over their cars and gain immunity like this ?
This is why the IDF imposes a closed military zone policy in these areas .. we have seen the same thing with so called Red Crescent ambulances which were found to carry weapons and explosives instead of the injured and the sick....
"Reserve soldiers at the Rama roadblock, north of Jerusalem, arrested an ambulance driver for the Palestinian Red Cross on Wednesday morning, after discovering that he was carrying an explosive device in his ambulance.
The man said that he was transporting the explosives, which were strapped to a belt, from the area of the West Bank city of Nablus at the request of an activist from the military wing of Fatah, which is headed by Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat. .....
........ The explosives belt, weighing 10 kilos, was hidden in the back of the ambulance underneath a stretcher, which was carrying a sick Palestinian boy. Members of the boy's family were also traveling in the ambulance. "
Stun grenades are non-lethal weapons.... there is a great deal of difference between shooting to kill and throwing stun grenades as a warning to get the hell out of dangerous war zones .. the IDF does not shoot to kill journalists !!!
Also re what Scot just posted there have been many incidents like this .... involving so called journalists who turned out to be terrorists .. after all what's to prevent the militants from pasting TV all over their cars and gain immunity like this ?
This is why the IDF imposes a closed military zone policy in these areas .. we have seen the same thing with so called Red Crescent ambulances which were found to carry weapons and explosives instead of the injured and the sick....
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok. Let me put it in plain simple words.
Closed military zone means off limit for reporters. Thus, the rule applies across the board from one closed military zone to another. Since all incursion [in self defense] acts carried out by IDF consider the area of incursion as a closed military zone, it follows that reporters are not allowed in such zones. Since those reporters fail to "cease and desist. This is a closed military zone and they should not have been there in the first place.", the IDF has the right to use all measures that it finds suitable to enforce such a rule.
My post was to advise the IDF that they should play very nice with the reporters, or suffer the fact that Israel image will be distorted internationally.
Your post and scott's post regarding explosive transporting personals. Those incidents justify the fears within the IDF. Justification, however put, does not role out the fact that the shootings are still intentional.
Indeed .. I think the point is that the European media is completely sold out to one side ... not bothering to even check the real facts .
Once the true facts finally came out late April this stuff wasn't real headline material anymore and was barely mentioned here in the UK .. I bet most people in the street would just remember Jenin as that place where Israel massacred hundreds of Palestinians,....... but I suppose that was the whole purpose of the exercise wasn't it .........</strong><hr></blockquote>
I cannot BELIEVE that the media, here or elsewhere, would skew the facts and lie about stuff, and then refuse to purge itself once this is found out.
I cannot BELIEVE that the media, here or elsewhere, would skew the facts and lie about stuff, and then refuse to purge itself once this is found out.
I just can't believe it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its not about straight forward lying, this is about reporting in a one sided manner, failing to report the whole story, deliberately omitting relevant facts that shed a different light on the story.... reporting some things but not others... you don't have to lie, full stop, to make people think the way you want them to.... I don't know if you live in the UK but if you do and if you read the papers and watched the BBC during early April you must have seen this happening all the time... I sure as hell did.
Just a few links I dug up while searching the BBC .. plenty more if you like me to....
A British forensic expert who has gained access to the West Bank city of Jenin says evidence points to a massacre by Israeli forces.
....
He said: "The truth will come out, as it has come out in Bosnia and Kosovo, as it has in other places where we've had these kinds of allegations.
"I must say that the evidence before us at the moment doesn't lead us to believe that the allegations are anything other than truthful and that therefore there are large numbers of civilian dead underneath these bulldozed and bombed ruins that we see."
The professor said recovering the bodies would be difficult because many buildings collapsed during bombardment.
He said: "We know there are families who were there and killed and buried.
"We were on the ruins yesterday and two elderly men came forward, each of them pointed to where their houses had been and one of them told us that 10 members of his family were buried under the rubble."
Palestinians claim hundreds of bodies are buried beneath the rubble, but Israel says the numbers of dead are far fewer. An independent forensic expert says evidence suggests that a massacre has taken place.
Palestinians have alleged that a massacre took place during the battle in the camp, and have said the army had begun burying the dead to conceal evidence. The allegations have brought international condemnation.
<hr></blockquote>
All of these claims have been completely and widely refuted since these were published but hardly anyone bothers to publish this now in Europe .. as I have said the damage has been done and the lie has now turned into a myth....
All of these claims have been completely and widely refuted since these were published but hardly anyone bothers to publish this now in Europe .. as I have said the damage has been done and the lie has now turned into a myth....
Your post and scott's post regarding explosive transporting personals. Those incidents justify the fears within the IDF. Justification, however put, does not role out the fact that the shootings are still intentional.
heheh, ? I think what Jakkorz is trying to say is that the IDF soldiers are pathetically poor shots. And that they really need to take better aim at their targets from now on. I agree. And I?ll be conveying that message that to my comrades next time we?re in the field.
Comments
<strong>
Nice try to redefine the meaning of the word "lie". Fact is the European media lied about the Jewish state. Much like the Nazis did before WW2 and the Arab press does now. Not good company to keep.
I don't agree with you on the second part either. An independent media is central to democracy. If the media sucks from the teat of the government how can it be considered to be free of bias?
I think you?re a little to engrossed in the "superiority" of your system to see it?s faults. Your loath to criticize yourself and would rather explain it away. Time to look in the mirror and demand better from your press in the future.</strong><hr></blockquote>
1) well we do not share the same conception of a lie.
2) The press is free in France. Except TV journal in France 2 and France 3 , the newspaper are independant. TF1 the most important TV channel with the most popular TV news belong to a private group like many US TV channel. Le monde have nothing to do with the governement for example. We have also satyrical newspaper like the "canard enchaine" : very hard stuff here for the governement.
Concerning TV i will add that i have the satellite, and thus access to CNN. We are not stuck in the world of today to our own media.
3) Never claim that European press is better than the Us one : don't have to look in the mirror for this, dont like me specially too either. Never have claim that Europe is superior in these boards, but will support it if i think there is unfair comments about it. Stupid Patriotism may be ?
They are dependent on people's money, and desires.
Anyway, Israel is paying it off now since it is yesterday's news like rushmon said.
When IDF kills a reporter intentionally, Israel should not expect the rest of fellow reporters to be fair willingly in their reports.
I am getting so sick and tired of the Israel Palestinian situation. They are both wrong.
(and both right)
<strong>The Press was never independent.
They are dependent on people's money, and desires.
Anyway, Israel is paying it off now since it is yesterday's news like rushmon said.
When IDF kills a reporter intentionally, Israel should not expect the rest of fellow reporters to be fair willingly in their reports.
When did the IDF intentionally kill a reporter ?
<strong>
When did the IDF intentionally kill a reporter ?</strong><hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4285-2002Apr5.html"; target="_blank">Reporters Become Targets of Israeli Army Firepower (washingtonpost.com)</a>
IDF should never mess with reporters. Be nice, be humble, and be patient with reports, or be smeared, dehuminized, and satan-ized by the same reporters.
<strong>
<a href="http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A4285-2002Apr5.html"; target="_blank">Reporters Become Targets of Israeli Army Firepower (washingtonpost.com)</a>
IDF should never mess with reporters. Be nice, be humble, and be patient with reports, or be smeared, dehuminized, and satan-ized by the same reporters.
The IDF has a job to do .. its not simple and its very risky ... people who walk around in war zones should not expect safety.. its mad and sad but that's the way it is in any war .... did we have any real journalism from Afghanistan or Kososvo ?
Anyway nowhere in this article does it say that the IDF have intentionally killed a journalist because they didn't do that !
<strong>
The IDF has a job to do .. its not simple and its very risky ... people who walk around in war zones should not expect safety.. its mad and sad but that's the way it is in any war .... did we have any real journalism from Afghanistan or Kososvo ?
Anyway nowhere in this article does it say that the IDF have intentionally killed a journalist because they didn't do that !</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fourth paragraph:
[quote] An Israeli army spokeswoman said the soldiers threw stun grenades at the journalists because they did not "cease and desist. This is a closed military zone and they should not have been there in the first place."
<hr></blockquote>
That tells me all shootings are intentional to keep Journalist away from such areas since they are closed military zones.
The truth is that the terrorist have taken cover as legitimate press. Using press credentials to invade Israel and kill civilians. But that story never seems to be told huh? Rather the so called "human rights" groups and international press associations only use what they want to condemn Israel. But when it comes to the Jewish state lies are not lies and the truth need not be told.
From <a href="http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=110001757"; target="_blank">Best of the web</a>
<a href="http://www.jpost.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=JPost/A/JPArticle/Full&cid=1021813237369"; target="_blank">Impersonating a Journalist</a>
The Jerusalem Post reports Israeli authorities have arrested a Palestinian terrorist who was posing as a journalist:
Yesterday morning security forces discovered an explosive belt containing 10 kg. [22 pounds] of TNT in a marble factory at the Erez industrial zone in the northern Gaza Strip.
Border Police sappers defused the belt and security forces detained a number of Palestinians for questioning. The belt was found after security officials received information from a Palestinian arrested at the Erez crossing on Wednesday during a routine check.
The occupants in his car, which had a "Press" sticker on its window, were detained by security forces after a grenade was found in the car. One of the detainees, Iyad Abed al-Ghali, 23, claimed he was a journalist, but later told investigators he works in the industrial zone and had hidden the belt in the factory, planning to latter smuggle it across the Green Line.
We checked the Web sites of <a href="http://www.rsf.org/content.php3"; target="_blank">Reporters Sans Frontières</a> and the International <a href="http://www.ifj.org/ifjfrontpage.html"; target="_blank">Federation of Journalists</a>. Surprise, surprise--though both organizations have press releases condemning Israel for its supposed mistreatment of Palestinian "journalists," we found not a word of condemnation of Arab terrorists disguising themselves as journalists in order to kill Jews.
[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: scott_h_phd ]</p>
<strong>
That tells me all shootings are intentional to keep Journalist away from such areas since they are closed military zones.
Stun grenades are non-lethal weapons.... there is a great deal of difference between shooting to kill and throwing stun grenades as a warning to get the hell out of dangerous war zones .. the IDF does not shoot to kill journalists !!!
Also re what Scot just posted there have been many incidents like this .... involving so called journalists who turned out to be terrorists .. after all what's to prevent the militants from pasting TV all over their cars and gain immunity like this ?
This is why the IDF imposes a closed military zone policy in these areas .. we have seen the same thing with so called Red Crescent ambulances which were found to carry weapons and explosives instead of the injured and the sick....
look at <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=146300&contrassID=1&subContrass ID=0&sbSubContrassID=0" target="_blank">this article from Haaretzdaily.com</a>
quote:
"Reserve soldiers at the Rama roadblock, north of Jerusalem, arrested an ambulance driver for the Palestinian Red Cross on Wednesday morning, after discovering that he was carrying an explosive device in his ambulance.
The man said that he was transporting the explosives, which were strapped to a belt, from the area of the West Bank city of Nablus at the request of an activist from the military wing of Fatah, which is headed by Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat. .....
........ The explosives belt, weighing 10 kilos, was hidden in the back of the ambulance underneath a stretcher, which was carrying a sick Palestinian boy. Members of the boy's family were also traveling in the ambulance. "
[ 05-27-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
<strong>
Stun grenades are non-lethal weapons.... there is a great deal of difference between shooting to kill and throwing stun grenades as a warning to get the hell out of dangerous war zones .. the IDF does not shoot to kill journalists !!!
Also re what Scot just posted there have been many incidents like this .... involving so called journalists who turned out to be terrorists .. after all what's to prevent the militants from pasting TV all over their cars and gain immunity like this ?
This is why the IDF imposes a closed military zone policy in these areas .. we have seen the same thing with so called Red Crescent ambulances which were found to carry weapons and explosives instead of the injured and the sick....
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok. Let me put it in plain simple words.
Closed military zone means off limit for reporters. Thus, the rule applies across the board from one closed military zone to another. Since all incursion [in self defense] acts carried out by IDF consider the area of incursion as a closed military zone, it follows that reporters are not allowed in such zones. Since those reporters fail to "cease and desist. This is a closed military zone and they should not have been there in the first place.", the IDF has the right to use all measures that it finds suitable to enforce such a rule.
My post was to advise the IDF that they should play very nice with the reporters, or suffer the fact that Israel image will be distorted internationally.
Your post and scott's post regarding explosive transporting personals. Those incidents justify the fears within the IDF. Justification, however put, does not role out the fact that the shootings are still intentional.
<strong>
Indeed .. I think the point is that the European media is completely sold out to one side ... not bothering to even check the real facts .
Once the true facts finally came out late April this stuff wasn't real headline material anymore and was barely mentioned here in the UK .. I bet most people in the street would just remember Jenin as that place where Israel massacred hundreds of Palestinians,....... but I suppose that was the whole purpose of the exercise wasn't it .........</strong><hr></blockquote>
I cannot BELIEVE that the media, here or elsewhere, would skew the facts and lie about stuff, and then refuse to purge itself once this is found out.
I just can't believe it.
<strong>
I cannot BELIEVE that the media, here or elsewhere, would skew the facts and lie about stuff, and then refuse to purge itself once this is found out.
I just can't believe it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Its not about straight forward lying, this is about reporting in a one sided manner, failing to report the whole story, deliberately omitting relevant facts that shed a different light on the story.... reporting some things but not others... you don't have to lie, full stop, to make people think the way you want them to.... I don't know if you live in the UK but if you do and if you read the papers and watched the BBC during early April you must have seen this happening all the time... I sure as hell did.
Just a few links I dug up while searching the BBC .. plenty more if you like me to....
[quote]
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1937000/1937048.stm"; target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1937000/1937048.stm</a>;
quote:
A British forensic expert who has gained access to the West Bank city of Jenin says evidence points to a massacre by Israeli forces.
....
He said: "The truth will come out, as it has come out in Bosnia and Kosovo, as it has in other places where we've had these kinds of allegations.
"I must say that the evidence before us at the moment doesn't lead us to believe that the allegations are anything other than truthful and that therefore there are large numbers of civilian dead underneath these bulldozed and bombed ruins that we see."
The professor said recovering the bodies would be difficult because many buildings collapsed during bombardment.
He said: "We know there are families who were there and killed and buried.
"We were on the ruins yesterday and two elderly men came forward, each of them pointed to where their houses had been and one of them told us that 10 members of his family were buried under the rubble."
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1937000/1937387.stm"; target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1937000/1937387.stm</a>;
quote:
Palestinians claim hundreds of bodies are buried beneath the rubble, but Israel says the numbers of dead are far fewer. An independent forensic expert says evidence suggests that a massacre has taken place.
<a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1930000/1930295.stm"; target="_blank">http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/middle_east/newsid_1930000/1930295.stm</a>;
quote:
Palestinians have alleged that a massacre took place during the battle in the camp, and have said the army had begun burying the dead to conceal evidence. The allegations have brought international condemnation.
<hr></blockquote>
All of these claims have been completely and widely refuted since these were published but hardly anyone bothers to publish this now in Europe .. as I have said the damage has been done and the lie has now turned into a myth....
[ 05-28-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</p>
<strong>
All of these claims have been completely and widely refuted since these were published but hardly anyone bothers to publish this now in Europe .. as I have said the damage has been done and the lie has now turned into a myth....
[ 05-28-2002: Message edited by: rashumon ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was trying to be funny. I don't believe a G.D. WORD that most media types say.
Your post and scott's post regarding explosive transporting personals. Those incidents justify the fears within the IDF. Justification, however put, does not role out the fact that the shootings are still intentional.
heheh, ? I think what Jakkorz is trying to say is that the IDF soldiers are pathetically poor shots. And that they really need to take better aim at their targets from now on. I agree. And I?ll be conveying that message that to my comrades next time we?re in the field.
mika.